Why did Sanders wait until we have a black president to cast blame and start his "revolution"?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

I've been thinking about this for a while now:

If Sanders wanted to change the Democratic Party, why didn't he start his revolution back in 2000 when black voters were being disenfranchised? Why wait now to get angry after the First Black President is in the White House? He wasn't this angry when Bush or Clinton was in office. Yeah, he may have yelled and screamed, but he waits until we have a black president, blames that president, and NOW at 74 years old, he wants to start a revolution?? Get the fuck out of here!

Sanders is behaving like the fucking Teabaggers who sat and watched George Bush and the Rethugs spend us into oblivion, run this country's economy in the ground, start two never-ending wars, destroy our standing in the world---and they didn't say or do ANYTHING until the Negro got into the White House. Suddenly, it's all HIS fault. Suddenly, the bad economy, the wars, everything is the black man's fault---not George W. Bush or the Rethug policies.

Rather than use his so-called star power, calling on progressives to stay focused and vote in 2010, reminding young voters, especially what's at stake, he stayed quiet. Rather than encourage voters in 2012 to vote overwhelmingly for Democrats, he argued that the First Black President should face a primary. Today, he dismisses voters in the American South--over 1/2 of whom are black voters. This is during a time when there is the most vigorous effort to disenfranchise black and Latino voters--Sanders and his fanatics dismiss those voters because they didn't support him. His fans invoke the Confederacy and slave/master mentality. His wife suggests that those contests don't matter because none of the Southern states will "go blue" in the GE. (Bill Clinton won Georgia in 1996; Obama won NC, VA, FL in 2008---and GA with its demographic shift could go Blue this year.)

No one sees the veiled racism in these statements and actions? To me, it's just as bad, if not worse than Hillary's campaign in 2008.

And yes, I don't give a damn what anyone says--a lot of that has to do with race, gender and privilege. There's a reason why the base of Bernie's support is white men. It's not merely a coincidence.

It's sad because I really used to admire Bernie Sanders. I would see him on my way to work every single morning--me getting coffee, he headed to Capitol Hill, nodding and smiling and saying hello.

He had my vote initially. He does not have it anymore. And April 26th when Maryland holds its primary cannot come fast enough for me. I want this thing to be over yesterday. Last night's abysmal performance and his rude, entitled behavior sealed it for me. I saw something in him that is really off-putting, hateful and spiteful. Sadly, I have come to really dislike this man.

[artyteacher]

1. you have a definite point. eom

[Jemmons]

13. Actually he dosnt have a point. He is just stating his fantasies and imaginations as facts. eom.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

21. I'm very much a "girl". And what facts have I gotten wrong? Please do tell in your infinite wisdom.

[Jemmons]

23. You are stating things as fact that are not facts

No one sees the veiled racism in these statements and actions?

You are "assuming facts not in evidence" as they would say in a cheap courtroom tv-series.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. It's called drawing a conclusion from the facts that ARE in evidence. Now ...

answer the seminal question ... Why, after nearly 30 years in Congress, and seeing the damage of the Reagan years and the idiocy of the Bush years, does he, suddenly, see the need for a revolution?

[Jemmons]

50. I suspect that you know this. But in case you dont: If you had paid attention you would not have

been the least surpriced by Bernie Running for prez:

And if you are really asking in a sligtly clumsy or disingeneous way why he didnt run for prez a long time ago, I will call bullshit on you!

[1StrongBlackMan]

52. LOL ...

And if you are really asking in a sligtly clumsy or disingeneous way why he didnt run for prez a long time ago, I will call bullshit on you!

Why call bullshit on me; rather than, answer the question that you would call bullshit on me over?

[Jemmons]

54. Because it would be pure disingeneous trolling

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. ...

Your



was/is well executed!

[Jemmons]

58. Look: You have been member here a long long time. I dont understand your choice

of candidat (asuming that it Hillary). I figure that there a chance that Sanders is going to be the candidate, but I also know that Hillary could very likely win.

But while there is reasons to choose one over the other I dont see why we cant stick to honest debate over the issues. To me calling Sanders a veiled racist is uncalled for. And I suspect that you agree.

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. My "choice" of HRC is, in this two party system, a forced choice ...

as I do not support Sanders' run for POTUS, for a number of reasons.

But while there is reasons to choose one over the other I dont see why we cant stick to honest debate over the issues.

The OP is NOT about this election or the issues surrounding the election, so the honest debate on the issues you wish to have, is off-topic.

Regarding the calling Sanders a veiled racist thing ... while I do not believe Sanders to be a racist, I know that "innocent actions", though non-racist in intent, can have a racist effect (or, in this case, raise the question).

[Jemmons]

64. Do you then honestly think that anyone would care to call Sanders a racist if he wasnt running for

prez?

This is where I think this debate gets less about issues and seem more like a mud slinging contest.

And isnt the kind of racism that you talk about (non-racist in intent) just the general injustice of capitalism, greed and facism that you actually share with many of us white people?

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Probably not ...

but, then, many Black (and white) people raised the "why now?" question in 2012?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

74. You wrote:

Do you then honestly think that anyone would care to call Sanders a racist if he wasnt running for prez?

No. They wouldn't give a fuck about Sanders because most people still wouldn't know who he is.

It is the very fact that he and his surrogates have insulted black voters, majority of whom reside in the American South, then turn around and have the nerve to ask, "Why you hate me"...now that's rich! It is self-entitlement at its finest.

Again, wanna know why he decided to get all revolutionary NOW at a time when we have a black president who has been mistreated and obstructed for 8 years. He IS calling for a revolution now, even though he's always been outspoken and an activist.

[Jemmons]

100. It is not clear to me what insult you talk about.

It is the very fact that he and his surrogates have insulted black voters

Your OP doesnt explain why you feel insulted and it is not obvious to me.
You probably have good reasons for feeling like you do, but there is a lot of people on this forum and you cant expect everyone to share you experience or context.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

101. You are posting in the African American Group. I started this OP in the AA Group. We here have had

countless discussions about this topic.

If you can't contribute or do not believe that these are valid concerns, I invite you not to even respond.

Again, this IS a protected group that you're posting your comments in.

Thanks.

[Jemmons]

105. Fair enough. My misunderstanding. eom.

[Number23]

121. Liberal_Stalwart has made it crystal DAMNED clear in her OP what her concerns are

That you are unable or unwilling or unable to understand her point doesn't mean that it was not made and in spectacularly clear fashion.

[JustAnotherGen]

178. I wouldn't call him a racist

Veiled or in any other way.

I would call him an opportunist.

There is indeed this white male rage in America that runs both left and right.

He has tapped into it. I think however - he is too late. The country has changed dramatically and the people who were never a part of the "ideal" American Dream listen to the radio station WII FM. I still can't hear his "vision" and how it relates to me. I'm not alone.

I'm very much a peer of the O.P. We are contemporaries though her focus of career and education far surpasses mine.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

70. No, I was asking a question, which I think is a valid question. Why did Sanders wait until NOW

to begin building relationships with people of color back in Chicago, back in New York, even as a politician in Vermont?

Knowing that any Democratic nominee must secure the votes of black Americans, why wouldn't he start that process very early on rather he and his fanatical supporters DEMAND that black people vote for him just because he marched and got arrested.

Note: There were millions of people who marched in the 60s, who were arrested, who were harassed, beaten and even killed. That Sanders marched and got arrested DOES NOT mean that he automatically deserves African American votes. Like everyone else, he must EARN VOTES!! He is not entitled any more than Hillary Clinton is.

[cloudythescribbler]

114. Two Issues: First, timing -- why is Bernie Sanders Running Now? and Second, Bernie Sanders on race

On the issue of timing, Bernie Sanders is running in this election cycle, among other reasons, as the candidate for the progressive wing of the Democratic Party against the coronation of neo-liberal Hillary Clinton. Going back over the last three or four elections -- and it really has only been since the millenium that the issue of the radically rising proportion of income and wealth going to the top 1% has become such a salient issue -- you can see that there was, at least in the early campaign, a major standardbearer for the progressive wing of the Party that is the most logical base for Bernie Sanders' candidacy. In 2000, there was Bill Bradley, not a very strong candidate but in a lot stronger position than Bernie, who was at the time still only a relatively less-known member of the House. In 2004, Howard Dean -- who has since learned to get with the program of the Democratic Party more obediently -- was the main standardbearer against the Iraq War and for what he at the time termed "The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party; until his candidacy imploded -- or was imploded by a chorus of protestation in response to a slightly redder than medium rare red meat speech after losing the Iowa Caucuses -- he was clearly the main figure running for the progressive Democrats. After that 'implosion', there was only Kucinich, who I voted for in MA. Then in the 2007-8 election cycle, at first Hillary Clinton was seen as the inevitable nominee, with Barack Obama as the main challenger, clearly not an out-and-out brazen spokesperson for the progressive wing of the Party, but at least seemed to be (and said many things suggesting that he was) at least going to straddle the gap between the two wings of the Party, as distinct from Hillary Clinton, clearly a neoliberal Clinton Democrat. I supported Obama from day 1 in large part in the hope of getting a president significantly more progressive than the neoliberals (Bill Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Hillary Clinton) who had dominated the national party until then. For example, all these, and Edwards, Lieberman, Biden etc had voted for the Iraq War resolution giving W the authority to launch a war, which Obama had vociferously opposed when it mattered. OK, Obama has turned out to be more centrist than many including myself had hoped, especially in 2009-10, though he has definitely been more progressive than President Clinton was. In 2012 there were some people urging Sanders to run, especially given the heightened consciousness of his signature issue with the Occupy Wall Street movement -- which rapidly faded.

But in this election year we again saw Hillary Clinton as the "inevitable" neoliberal nominee. There were no major progressive challengers to her (Chafee?) with any serious base, and many more people including myself who wanted him to run -- and to run as a Democrat in the primaries, as that could really reach a mass public, and likely engage many more millions of voters than running as an Independent. (Bernie himself suggested as much in pointing to the greater MSM exposure he got as a candidate for the Democratic nomination). He has done much better than many supporters, including myself, thought at all likely when he first declared. He is running on an issue -- the concentration of wealth AND political power in a plutocratic elite that has become quite salient, though he is making it moreso; this is not even implicitly a campaign against President Obama or his legacy (except I suppose if one views Hillary Clinton as Obama's 'heir apparent'). He has not attacked any of the reforms of the Obama years, tho Hillary Clinton has tried to portray him as seeking to undo the Affordable Care Act, rather than expand and extend it. (This is basically reducible to campaign rhetoric -- not at all true of Sanders' position).

There have been a number of candidates who have at least implicitly run against the record of a presidency of their own Party (McCarthy and Kennedy in 68), Reagan in 76, and Kennedy in 80 for example, but Sanders is not in that category. There is nothing in his candidacy that reasonably is a negative reaction to the Obama years; again, Obama himself was the candidate favored by many of the progressive wing of the party against Hillary as neoliberal in 2007-8.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the issue of race, I am not aware of ANYTHING that Bernie Sanders or any of his staff have said that suggested black voters should "automatically" support him based on his record back in the era of the Civil Rights movement. Sometimes on DU in response to the veracity of this true history being challenged, it may seem that way especially as a bone of contention. But it IS legitimate for Sanders & his campaign to raise IN THE CONTEXT OF HIS FAVORABLE RECORD FOR MORE THAN A QUARTER CENTURY IN CONGRESS. It is true that there are particulars (eg on gun control) that might be subject to debate, but on many issues both Congressman and then Senator Sanders, whether opposing many of the so-called 'reforms' of the Clinton era, although he did vote for the criminal justice reform in 1994 that had both positive and negative features as visible at the time. (The worst aspect of it was the political penumbra of how it helped to shepherd state-level policies in the so-called War on Drugs, pushed along with memes about 'superpredators' and such). Bernie Sanders is an (admittedly not perfectly pure) staunch figure in the progressive wing of US politics, not merely as a self-described socialist (I think Chomsky's characterization of his candidacy as more of a neo-New Dealer is on point) but as a progressive on a host of particular issues. Pointing out some positions on gun control that he has taken, or support for the F-35 production in his home state of Vermont aside, this is quite clearly the case, as it is also clear that the Clintons stand for neoliberalism.

But aside from this ideological conflict within the Democratic Party (which was quite pronounced with the Rainbow Coalition representing progressive politics and policies and both Mondale & Dukakis a more centrist vision, albeit not centrist/conservative enough for Clinton in 92) there is the reputation and regard for the Clintons in the black community. Those who, like myself, supported Obama from day 1 in the 2007-8 primary election cycle can remember vividly how month after month polls of African American voters showed Hillary leading Barack by double digits. It really looked like an uphill climb, especially with Super Tuesday scheduled so soon in the season. But after gradually rising in visibility and popularity generally (the fact of being super well-know being an advantage to Hillary against Barack in 07 just as it has been against Bernie (Bernie who?) in this election cycle, Oprah Winfrey not only endorsed but actively campaigned for Barack Obama in ways and early enough on to really shift matters effectively, along with others in 2007 like Chris Rock. And Obama himself was a very strong candidate tho many on DU trashed him mercilessly in favor of Hillary Clinton at the time. This election cycle, for many clear and less obvious reasons, Bernie Sanders is not as strong a challenger to Hillary Clinton. She does have the added plus of being closely identified with the Obama Administration at this point IN ADDITION TO the strong economic track record during the Bill Clinton Administration. That latter issue helps explain why she was running so strongly at first and for many months in 2007, and why she runs more strongly against Bernie Sanders today. Younger voters in general (those under 35) were mainly children during the Clinton presidency. They aren't going to remember how sluggish the economy was under Bush pere, or how the Clintons in office faced much of the same outrageous obstructionism that has been hurled at the Obama Administration. But these factors are NOT a basis for trashing Bernie Sanders, who today takes a much stronger position on the issue of the New Jim Crow, the so-called Drug War, and mass incarceration than Hillary does, (and has the very outspoken support of Michelle Alexander and others concerned with these issues) over and above his broad populist economic message, which (eg universal single payer & free public college tuition, etc) also stands to benefit communities of color.

All the negative trashing on both sides that you see on DU is really a distraction from all this. Sure, it's true Bernie as a candidate is no Barack Obama, and few people have been in US politics, but I would expect that, should Hillary Clinton be elected, there will be plenty of room for the emergence of a progressive opposition within the electoral & MSM arena, and that Bernie Sanders could be very much a part of that. And over time it would seem that the issues raised in this post would become secondary to that fundamental split between progressive Democrats and neoliberals

Sorry I do go on long but this issue in various forms has come up repeatedly and needs to be addressed

[blm]

152. John Kerry is a progressive through and through. You don't know your history.

Too many stupid people believed what the media wanted them to believe about Kerry. There has NEVER been a more progressive nominee than Kerry, and there isn't any legislator in modern history, certainly no one in DC today, who has actually had a more positive effect on this nation's REAL historic record than John Kerry.

You are welcome to try and name someone other than Kerry, but, you best have proof to back it up.

[cloudythescribbler]

172. I am from MA, and as of 2004, Kennedy was the more progressive senator

btw I am not arguing that Kerry hasn't had a 'positive effect' on the nation's 'historic record' as Secretary of State. He deserves great respect for negotiating the very difficult Iran deal, whatever demagogic detractors may say about it. But Kerry, who eg like Biden and Hillary and Lieberman and Edwards all voted for the Iraq War (which at least many Democrats in the Senate had the wisdom to oppose) is indeed from the national neoliberal wing of the Party. He is not like Capuano, Serrano, Grijalva, Sanders Barbara Lee, and Kucinich and many others in Congress tho, as on the Iran Deal, they (Kerry and the relatively progressive wing of the Party) may be on the 'same side'.

Is the division b/t neoliberals like Hillary & Bill Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards and (as it turns out, to the dismay of many of his supporters from day 1 in the 2007-8 cycle, like myself), Obama, even tho Obama accomplished more in a PROGRESSIVE direction as president than Bill Clinton did) and progressives, but the division is there. And on issues like the coup in Honduras and the TPP it does make a difference

[blm]

173. Kerry's positive effect was established PRE Sec of State.

He pushed through IranContra and BCCI investigations when most of DC was aligned against him. Those investigations uncovered S&L problems and CIA drug running. NO ONE in modern history investigated and exposed more government corruption than John Kerry and most Dems don't even realize it.

I was a Kucinich supporter since his very first run in 1972 as a schoolgirl and his entire public life. It is ludicrous to claim that Kerry wasn't in that company when for a good portion of Kucinich's public life he was against abortion, and against flag-burning, regretted he hadn't been able to serve in the military during Vietnam, and a number of other positions that some have forgotten or maybe never knew. I knew and knew his heart was really more progressive and stayed in support of Kucinich and his career. Kerry's lifetime voting record when he was running in 2003-4 was to the left of every other candidate in that primary, including Dennis.

The revisionism people do on Kerry and the lack of knowledge of his impressive, actual record is absurd.

Kneejerk revisionism is just more BULLSHIT, imo.

[mcar]

2. He could have been marching on Washington then

One does wonder why he waited till now.

[JonathanRackham]

3. 16 years ago?

Maybe Bernie was taking care of the state he was elected to take care of. Maybe he knows how to handle priorities.

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. LOL ... Yeah, that's it!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

71. Oh yeah, most of his constituents are white. All the more reason why he doesn't deserve the votes

of black people. His "priorities" were in a different place.

He must earn votes, but come begging for black votes NOW after 30 fucking years. It doesn't work that way.

He didn't bother to build relationships with black voters for over 30 years; he can't come whining now.

[Human101948]

77. The way the Clintons earned all those black votes?

Some might argue that it’s unfair to judge Hillary Clinton for the policies her husband championed years ago. But Hillary wasn’t picking out china while she was first lady. She bravely broke the mold and redefined that job in ways no woman ever had before. She not only campaigned for Bill; she also wielded power and significant influence once he was elected, lobbying for legislation and other measures. That record, and her statements from that era, should be scrutinized. In her support for the 1994 crime bill, for example, she used racially coded rhetoric to cast black children as animals. “They are not just gangs of kids anymore,” she said. “They are often the kinds of kids that are called ‘super-predators.’ No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-black-voters_us_56ba797fe4b08ffac12328f0

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

82. This OP is about Bernie Sanders. Stick to the topic.

[Human101948]

84. Yeah right!

It's a race baiting Hillary loving provocation.

[Number23]

122. Liberal_Stalwart has been and even in this OP is as critical of Hillary as she is of Sanders

If anything, she's been way more critical of Clinton than Sanders.

It is no one's fault that you guys are unable to discuss any criticism of Sanders without trotting out Clinton's many ills. And it's as boring as it is embarrassing.

[uponit7771]

144. Like Obama? Sanders says he left voters behind ...

[boobooday]

4. He didn't wait.

He's been trying to start a revolution since the 1960's.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/02/bernie-sanders-core-university-chicago

[awake]

30. How true + 1000

The media never covered him before and it is now because if the "huge" crowds he can not be ignored any longer although the press us still trying to guve him as little civerage as they can.

[beastie boy]

44. He's been awfully timid with his revolution from 1968 until Obama became President

Only then his calls for a revolution really began.

I believe that's the OP's point.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Thank you! My criticism of BS is similar to that of Nader. He didn't build a party, even as an

Independent. Why? Why didn't he seek to reform the Democratic Party (substantively, not by platitudes) when the DLC was running wild under Bill Clinton. Again, why wait until NOW??

Yep. He's been very timid in his so-called revolutionary platform before now, again, at 74 years old.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

154. Thank you. They are feigning ignorance. They know damn well what I'm talking about. ;)

[beastie boy]

159. They have to.

Otherwise, Bernie's parallels with the right wing candidates become too obvious to ignore.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

72. The point again: He should have been building relationships with black voters for all those years.

Apparently he did not. So he and his fanatics cannot expect for black voters to support him if he hasn't bothered to build those relationships. It's not their fault. It's his.

[boobooday]

83. He was representing Vermont all those years.

He only became a national candidate last year.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

157. Fuck that! Being a senator from Vermont does not mean that he could not have begun building

relationships with POC in the House and Senate.

Again, he knows nothing about the Democratic Party. If he did, he should have know that POC comprises the largest, most loyal base of the party. Rather than begin building relationships with POC, he waits until THIS year and expects us to just fall over him and vote for him just because he marched and was arrested. No, thanks!

I am a daughter of the American South. My parents, their parents, and their parents and generations before that paid the ultimate price. Bernie is not the ONLY white man who got arrested, marched and whatever. Just because he did those things does not mean that black voters should automatically support him. Hell, we didn't automatically support any black candidate, not even Jesse Jackson. Black candidates, like ALL candidates, must work for our votes. PERIOD!!!!

[stopbush]

113. Sanders loves to point to Medicare/caid and Social Security as two very successful socialist

programs that Americans love.

What he never points out is that those programs were the result of the hard work done by establishment Democrats, and that they were enacted without any kind of revolution whatsoever.

Which begs the question: what need of a revolution to enact a wider socialist agenda? Our country has already enacted effective socialist programs without the need for a socialist revolution.

[Tanuki]

5. I guess it's the same reason he sends out his Naderite surrogates like Paul Song, Susan

Sarandon, and Tim Robbins, who actively worked against Al Gore and helped to put GWBush in office, to insult Democrats at every turn and blame us for every evil thing that has resulted.

[BlueMTexpat]

6. Hi L_S71!

Just so you know, you can vote in MD right now. Early voting began yesterday and will continue until next Thursday, April 21, from 10 am to 8 pm.

You will have to check your county early voting locations because they may not be the same as the one you would use on April 26. http://www.elections.state.md.us/voting/early_voting_sites.html

I also share many of your sentiments!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

8. Yeah, I know. I'm going to vote today. When I stated that April 26th can't come fast enough...

I mean that I can't wait for this thing to be over, as I truly believe that it will be on April 27th.

[BlueMTexpat]

9. I'm definitely with you

there! I'm also hoping that NY next Tuesday will be a very decisive factor.

If there is any talk of a "contested convention" from the SBS campaign after April 26, scales should be dropping from eyes everywhere, if they haven't already.

They finally fell from my own eyes completely a couple weeks back after hearing about the Rovian antics in NV. Most things that have happened since then have only made me wonder why I didn't see earlier on. Your OP today is one POV I had not considered before, but should have. Thank you for posting.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

11. Always good to see you, my friend. Hang in there!

[OneGrassRoot]

7. I'm hyper aware of racism...

and patriarchal authoritarianism. That said, I continue to learn about my own white privilege every day.

I'm agnostic about these two candidates. I'm trying not to be swayed by either of their supporters and pay attention to the candidates themselves. I was pretty disgusted with what was unleashed after the Seattle rally where BLM disrupted Bernie; I saw friends on the left -- friends I never would have imagined would spew racist, patriarchal, authoritarian BS do just that.

I know Bernie as a candidate has been painted with the Bernie Bros behavioral label. He is an old white dude who has lived and governed in a white, white state forever. I do wish his campaign would have reached out to non-white demographics much sooner. I'm not going to speculate as to why they didn't, as I don't know.

I wish similar things about Hillary; wish she would have done some things at the outset rather than in a reactionary campaign mode.

I've seen them both do it.

I do believe both candidates care a lot more about ALL citizens than anyone in the GOP: candidates, current politicians, and GOP citizens. Yet neither Hillary or Bernie is my ideal candidate, and there are things I dislike about both of them.

Edit to add: I am, however, DELIGHTED with both of our candidates in contrast to the GOP. Delighted, I tell ya.

All that said, to answer your question, I personally don't believe Obama or racism is involved with Bernie deciding to run for president on this revolution campaign slogan.

I think it has to do with the revolutionary vibe that has traveled the global over the last 8 years, not the least of which was our own Occupy Wall Street in 2011. I think that is what spurred Bernie to run now versus any other time. He knew he had a good chunk of the citizenry on his side right away because of his stance against Wall Street, certainly more than in previous election cycles.

Just my opinion.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

10. Much appreciated. Thank you so much for being honest and fair. You stated some points that attracted

me to Bernie Sanders in the first place. (I was a Nader supporter in both 1996 and 2000. Living in MD doesn't matter, but I do now regret that mistake.) And I'm sticking to my guns here, though. I do believe that at the very least, psychological racism, paternalism, a sense of entitlement and arrogance are at play here. I felt the same way about Hillary Clinton in 2008.

I still believe that getting arrested in 60s and participating in marches don't cut it. Substantive and *continued* work with disenfranchised communities would have been more convincing.

The fact that many black people did not know Sanders until now is a testament. Why should they learn of him just now in 2016? Had he built a substantive relationship with people of color for the 50 years that we are constantly told how much of an ally he is, things would be different. Just think: Regardless of their motives, the Clintons have spent their entire political career building relationships with the black community; creating networks of support and doing whatever was necessary to sustain those relationships over time.

I know that Bernie was representing his state of Vermont; however, even Barack Obama couldn't just waltz in overnight expecting the black community to jump onboard without him having to demonstrate what he's done for the community (whether in Chicago, NY or otherwise), AND demonstrating his ability to win. Most black voters were squarely in HRC's corner in the beginning of that campaign. Few knew who Obama was or cared.

Same with Sanders. He waits until 2016 (yeah, I know he announced in 2015) to seek out the black vote and expects black voters to just join him simply because he marched, got arrested, supported Jesse Jackson, and talk about the PIC? That's not enough. What has he done over the years to BUILD these relationships? Where was his revolution at least starting in 2000 when voters were disenfranchised and during the war, while the economy was being decimated?

Again, thank you for your honesty and for being very fair and reasonable.

[All in it together]

24. Bernie didn't start his revolution in 2008. He's been at it a long time.

He reluctantly decided to run for president this time because he saw more back sliding by some Democrats (Hillary) and some of our long standing platforms being weakened. (Welfare reform of Bill's administration) He's been in the congress and senate standing up for African Americans and other Americans. He stood up against Bush's war in Iraq. He stands up and speaks his mind and supports Americans no matter who is president. He stood up and argued against welfare "reform"and he stands up when Democrats attempt to cut Social Security.

President Obama ran on hope and change and we were having a revolution then in the country, turning against the status quo of the Clinton's. Now It's about the Republican crazies and how many democrats have accepted the need to cut programs and not tax the wealthiest and big corporations more. We need to stop subsidizing multinational corporations and big fossil fuel companies and sending jobs and dollars overseas with bad trade deals. There are great ways of cutting spending without hurting our common good.

I do wish that there was more done specifically for and with the African American community. It seems as if the Clinton's do much with the community but not much for the community.

President Obama has been a wonderful president but I don't agree with everything he's done. He got us out of a terrible recession with great opposition by the Republicans. We can continue to build on what he started. And I'm glad Bernie speaks up when Democrats or Republicans could do better. I think the status quo has been bad especially for people of color unfortunately, but it's been good for those at the top already. That's my humble opinion anyway and I know you didn't ask for it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

73. Again, if he did have a revolution, that didn't involve black voters. WHY? Black voters, by and

large, didn't know Bernie Sanders until ***this year***. Get it?

Go back and re-read my OP.

Why did he wait, again, until we had a black president--someone that black people love and admire--to start his revolution by running for office or whatever?

I'm well aware that Sanders has always been outspoken. He's always been on the fringe, and Independent (big "I&quot and independent (little "I&quot . But he didn't run for president in 2004 or 2008, especially. He waits until the Negro President is elected to raise hell. He didn't call for Bill Clinton to be primaried in 1996 or primary Al Gore in 2000 (of course there was Nader). Again, why wait until NOW even after seeing how this president has been mistreated and obstructed? Then, he writes books and aligns with Cornel West who has done nothing but demonstrated outright contempt for this president due to personal issues.

So now Sanders wonders why he can't get a sizeable portion of the black, Hispanic, and women votes. Really? He waltzes in the Democratic Party after shunning the party, calling himself an Independent, not having attempted to rebuild the party or anything--and he expects people to just jump up and support him? That is the very definition of entitlement.

[KelleyD]

110. Ding...ding..ding! That whole West and Smiley endorsement raised red flags for me! Sour grapes!n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

25. ...

I hear you.

[Amimnoch]

27. Be careful the last person to say they never saw him got attacked horrendously.

And he was one of the greatest civil rights leaders of all time.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

75. ...and he still is. I'm not afraid of the Sanders fanatics.

[FlaGranny]

26. I want to add something

to your observations. I believe that Bernie believed, like we all did, that Obama would lead from the left and not the middle like he did. He did not run because he believed in Obama. I was very disappointed in Obama's negotiating, giving a lot of ground before he even started, not to mention trade issues. I was absolutely thrilled when Obama was elected, but he hasn't lived up to many of my expectations.

Bernie in his entire career has always been on the correct side of civil rights issues. This time I believe he ran just to get out his message. I think he is actually shocked that it has come this far and now he feels it is his duty to his millions of supporters to continue.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. I agree...

The popularity of Elizabeth Warren and her message which mirrors much of his own I think encouraged him as well.

I think he is actually shocked that it has come this far and now he feels it is his duty to his millions of supporters to continue.

I agree with that as well. It seems his consistency of message over the decades re: economic equality has been a blessing and a curse in this national campaign process. Some perceive it as consistent in a positive way, while others perceive it as narrow-minded and negligent of other issues.

I try to stay out of these discussions since I usually feel no need to defend nor demean either candidate, but I had a clear response to the question raised in this OP, based on my opinion and perspective. Which is only one opinion and one perspective.

[secondwind]

12. I think he has been fighting the good fight for decades... why he waited til now to bring it to the

forefront? I guess we'd have to ask him.

I've seen some incredible videos of his speeches on the Senate floor, going back decades... he's been out there... I think it's more like "enough is enough" already. that is how I see it. Can Hillary win the South? I don't think so.. it's gotten so much WORSE, that I have to agree with you, why didn't he (WE) start this revolution earlier?

Peace

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

17. I've followed Sanders' career for decades myself, always in awe of him and jealous that other Dems

didn't talk like he did. But I realized that he represents a pretty ideological homogenous state and I realized that he was probably more electorally free to say what he wanted and not face a formidable challenge.

I still think he should have taken advantage of his work with the black community and build that community. He could've himself created a People of Color progressive coalition, build on the Democratic Party's formal Progressive Coalition and really put himself out there as an agent of change. He didn't.

As for HRC, if she is the nominee and faces Trump, there's a poll out now saying that she beats Trump in Georgia by nearly 15 points.

No, I don't think she'll win the South, but there are some southern states that are in play, GA being one of them. VA definitely. FL is a must!

I'm from Georgia originally, so I know how bad it is. However, the growing diverse population may change things. Even Rethug Governor Nathan Deal sees the light and what's taking place in his own state.

[zalinda]

53. Bernie is a Senator from Vermont

Before that he was a Congressman from Vermont and before that a mayor from a city in Vermont. Vermont is mainly white, not by choice, it just happened like that. What I'm saying is that he had a job to do, representing Vermont. He did speak out on things related to people of color, but to actively spend some of his time to create a coalition would have been short changing the people of Vermont. As a representative of his state he has always done his job, even now. He is still participating in Senate business even while running for President. When he becomes President, he will fight for equality for all people and make sure people of color and women are not left out.

Obama ran a campaign on Hope and Change, it didn't happen, not for us lesser people. When Hillary started her 'new' campaign, he noticed that there wasn't a huge field of Democrats to choose from. He asked some people if he should run, and then started a campaign to give voice to us lesser people. No one thought that he would rise this high and go this far. No one thought that Bernie's message would resonate, that's because we have been invisible to the Democratic Party. The dems thought that we were a pesky minority who had no where else to go. Bernie has given us voice.

Z

[tk2kewl]

14. Because until the great recession and OWS...

he was a less well know and weaker candidate in the eyes of the establishment and punditry than Dennis Kucinich.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

18. He was less known NOW! What's the difference? If one is a change agent, one is a change agent

regardless of circumstance. A revolutionary builds his/her revolution over the course of time. They don't wait until running for president to call themselves a revolutionary. They have to build those relationships. Sanders didn't do that.

[tk2kewl]

20. he has done *exactly* that

apparently you have not been paying attention or researched his political career.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

22. He has NOT done that. Not at all. If he did, more black people would know him. And I have been

following his career. Likely much longer than you.

[tk2kewl]

35. unless you're from VT I doubt it

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

76. It's your opinion. I won't go into this, but I worked on Capitol Hill for several decades.

Trust me, I've followed Sanders' career. He represents a homogenous state.

But regardless of that. That's not the point. The point is that he cannot expect to have votes from people that he's never EARNED, nor built relationships with. He realized this once he hired Simone Sanders, but by then, I think it was too late. He should have started this campaign YEARS AGO!

[tk2kewl]

116. I guess that explains it

Only a Washington insider could come up with this OP

[Number23]

123. A "Washington Insider" or the vast majority of black and Hispanic voters in every single primary

held so far.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

155. LOL!! If I'm a Washington Insider, then Bernie is, too! He's been in this town a lot longer than I.

If that's the metric you're going with, then your boy, Bernie Sanders, is every bit an Insider.

[tk2kewl]

162. Since you've followed Bernie's career so closely since he first arrived in Washington

You must have at least some anecdotal evidence to support your claim of "veiled racism." I mean either you do or you're just trying to smear him. You must be saving that evidence to spring on me to really drive the point home, right?

Endorsing and campaigning for Rev Jackson, standing up for Rodney King, and going to Florida to fight against voter suppression were all just a thin veil, behind which the true racist Bernie Sanders was hiding. Waiting patiently for a black man to become president, so he could strike.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

163. Your reading skills are quite subpar. Again, if Sanders cared so much about black folk, he

should have been building relationships with us throughout CONGRESS for the 30 years he's been there.

I'm not going to give your stupid-ass comment a response, but I will leave this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107104499

^^^^^ THIS is what Sanders should have been doing. Not insulting blacks and insinuating that we know nothing. The paternalism, arrogance, and YES, veiled racism are WHY he's losing. I can't wait!!

[tk2kewl]

164. So when you are challenged for evidence you resort to insulting me. Nice.

You claim his revolution is veiled racism but provide no evidence. In fact, if, as say, you have been following his career, you flatly ignore evidence contrary to your premise. You say he didn't fight for black voters in Florida, but he did. You say he wasn't angry until there was a black president, which is blatant false. I don't care if you don't support his candidacy, but I do care when you and others continue to try to push the Sanders is racist bullshit.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

165. What evidence? He fucking marched and was arrested. So fucking what??

He didn't BUILD RELATIONSHIPS with black voters and that's why he's losing! PERIOD!
I'm done going back and forth with you. If you can't red for comprehension, that's your fault, not mine.

Have a nice day and welcome to IGNORE!

[tk2kewl]

166. you claim his run is veiled racism with no evidence

That my friend is a pile of crap. You're free to feel he has not done enough for your cause, but you are not free to paint him as a racist. I'm not letting that pass.

[disillusioned73]

15. So now Bernie Sanders..

is a bigot.. wow

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

19. According to you. He think he and his surrogates have issued subtle bigoted statements. Yes. Is he a

bigot himself? I'm not sure.

[disillusioned73]

28. Your OP implies a lot more than "I'm not sure"..

"Why did Sanders wait until we have a black president to cast blame and start his "revolution"?"

"Why wait now to get angry after the First Black President is in the White House?"

"Yeah, he may have yelled and screamed, but he waits until we have a black president, blames that president, and NOW at 74 years old, he wants to start a revolution?? Get the fuck out of here!"

"Sanders is behaving like the fucking Teabaggers"

"There's a reason why the base of Bernie's support is white men"

You have the right to your opinion, just man up and say it.. if I thought someone was a bigot I'd have no problem putting it out there.. jmo - maybe the primary has taken it's toll, like you state that you can't wait for the MD primary to come.. I am right there with you - PA feels like a lifetime away at this point with all the back and forth..

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

78. One can use dog whistle tactics that are racially insensitive in nature and not necessarily be a

bigot.

Whatever. Maybe I do think he's a bigot. And if I do, that's my opinion. Thank you for acknowledging that.

But the bottom line is this:

Bernie Sanders waited until we had a black president to blame said black president of every wrong there is. He didn't take Clinton to task. He didn't take Bush to task. He didn't take the entire Democratic Party to task. NOT WITH THE FERVOR THAT HE'S DOING NOW! Yes, he yelled and screamed on the House and Senate Floor. Yes! I agree. But he waits now to engage in substantive revolutionary tactics.

Bernie Sanders will lose this nomination. And I cannot wait until this happens.

[All in it together]

34. Are you talking about Hillary?

She questioned then Senator Obama even being a natural born American. She made her three am add that was racist
It's nice Hillary has such stalwart support, I just don't know if she deserves it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

79. This OP is about Bernie Sanders. Please stick to the topic.

[Scootaloo]

59. Your entire premise is that he's a racist for even running this year.

It's right there in your OP. Please don't play coy. if you're going to say something, stand up with it. it was evidently a good idea to say originally, so it must still be a good idea now, after someone trims it down to a single anchoring sentence.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

81. I think he's made subtle and explicit racist statements about black voters in the American South.

Is he racist? Maybe, maybe not.

But I'm not afraid to say that he is if I knew for sure. Trust me. I've never afraid to state my opinion on this forum.

And remember: You are posting in the African American Forum. So if I thought he was racist and knew for sure, I would say so without hesitation.

[Scootaloo]

111. There's no uncertainty in your OP.

Here, let me show you your own first two paragraphs.

If Sanders wanted to change the Democratic Party, why didn't he start his revolution back in 2000 when black voters were being disenfranchised? Why wait now to get angry after the First Black President is in the White House? He wasn't this angry when Bush or Clinton was in office. Yeah, he may have yelled and screamed, but he waits until we have a black president, blames that president, and NOW at 74 years old, he wants to start a revolution?? Get the fuck out of here!

Sanders is behaving like the fucking Teabaggers who sat and watched George Bush and the Rethugs spend us into oblivion, run this country's economy in the ground, start two never-ending wars, destroy our standing in the world---and they didn't say or do ANYTHING until the Negro got into the White House. Suddenly, it's all HIS fault. Suddenly, the bad economy, the wars, everything is the black man's fault---not George W. Bush or the Rethug policies.

Not any "maybe, maybe not" contained there. Pretty clearly more of an "absolutely is" approach to things. Looks like you did, in fact, say so without hesitation. So why then the backing-up when disillusioned73 brings up the naked facts of what you're saying? Why play coy? Why act like "golly, gosh, I don't know?" Just own it.

[Scootaloo]

193. Hunt you down? Really?

Where on earth is THAT coming from?

Nah. Making the point that if you're going to say something, say it and stick with it, or don't. Don't try to have it both ways, where you say something, and then act like people who heard what you said are making things up about you. That's passive-aggressive nonsense.

I don't particularly care what you think of Bernie. Who are you? Some Guy On The Internet, that's who, woo hoo. But in the interests of there being useful discourse in this community - that is, DU as a whole - I just ask that people mean what they say and say what they mean.

[ColesCountyDem]

49. Exactly!

[tomm2thumbs]

16. here's a good watch

This ought to make you feel better.

[DAngelo136]

29. I'm calling bullshit!

"If Sanders wanted to change the Democratic Party, why didn't he start his revolution back in 2000 when black voters were being disenfranchised? Why wait now to get angry after the First Black President is in the White House? He wasn't this angry when Bush or Clinton was in office. Yeah, he may have yelled and screamed, but he waits until we have a black president, blames that president, and NOW at 74 years old, he wants to start a revolution?? Get the fuck out of here!"

You must have been asleep, pal. A revolution was happening under your feet; you just didn't know it.

Let's not forget THIS GUY:


And this guy:


It's really hard to lead a revolution when you're the ONLY Socialist in the Congress. It wasn't that long ago being a "Socialist" was a dirty word. Remember, there were such things as "Reagan Democrats" and "Blue Dog Democrats" roaming the land. So the Congress was de facto conservative in BOTH parties.

As for Hillary, read her very impassioned and well reasoned address on the Senate floor on the Authorization of Force that gave Bush the OK for the Iraq War. But note, she voted yes anyway. Kucinich, being consistent, didn't. Kucinich voted his conscience; Hillary voted her campaign.

Here are the 21 Senators who saw through Bush's bullcrap and voted against the resolution:
Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
Robert Byrd (D-WV)
Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
Kent Conrad (D-ND)
Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
Mark Dayton (D-MN)
Richard Durbin (D-IL)
Russell Feingold (D-WI)
Robert Graham (D-FL)
Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
James Jeffords (I-VT)
Edward Kennedy (D-MA)
Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
Carl Levin (D-MI)
Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
Patty Murray (D-WA)
Jack Reed (D-RI)
Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
Paul Wellstone (D-MN)
Ron Wyden (D-OR)

By the way, when Sanders was in the House of Representatives; he voted 'no'

Hillary's problem has always been, she's put politics ahead of principle. She doesn't run to win; she runs not to lose.
She's so afraid of losing Conservative votes, she loses her base. That's how, as a presumptive favorite, she lost to a previously unknown Barack Obama. All he did was say "Hey, I wouldn't have voted for that." and caught on. After that, we saw Hillary stumble, bumble and lose. She's the Tony Romo of politics; she's good when it's easy but when it counts, she'll do something that will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Don't believe me? Ask Mayor Bill DiBlasio

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/hillary-clinton-bill-de-blasio-colored-people-time-joke-skit-racial-racist

"CP Time"? IN NEW YORK? REALLY? Hope you know the Heimlich Maneuver, pal. I see a major choke job coming up.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

85. Paul Wellstone and Denis Kucinich were indeed revolutionaries. Sanders just yelled and screamed

a lot on the House and Senate Floor. I agree that Wellstone and Kucinich were more active. I supported Kucinich in 2008 before moving to Obama.

I hold steadfast to my initial argument: Sanders is NO revolutionary. He didn't build any relationships. He did nothing but scream and yell...just like he's doing right now.

[Cha]

196. I'm so sorry the BSrs Hid you out of your own thread in the AA Group, LS! Now I know

why you'll never respond to my post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=49537

Damn the tyranny on this board.

Bernie has run his course: The Sanders campaign has stopped being about winning and is now mostly about whining

"Sanders used to add value to the campaign, but lately, all he does is sow unjustified paranoia and anger"

I wish it were otherwise, but there’s simply no nice way to put this. The Sanders camp has decided to focus on stoking half-baked complaints about process, complaints that don’t serve to win a single vote to their side. Instead, it seems about Sanders and his supporters insinuating that Clinton is winning by cheating. The behavior is not the behavior of people trying to win. It’s the behavior of someone who lost a hand of poker and is throwing his cards in his opponent’s face and screaming about how unfair it is that the other guy drew a better hand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107110132

I cannot wait until the BS' campaign strategy of taking the lowest road possible blows up in their karmic induced face.

[Herman4747]

31. This is so extremely ridiculous.

"why didn't he start his revolution back in 2000 when black voters were being disenfranchised?" -- Liberal_Stalwart71

In 2000 we had future Nobel Peace Prize Winner Al Gore running. Enough said.

"the First Black President should face a primary." -- Liberal_Stalwart71

Hello???? HILLARY ACTUALLY RAN AGAINST OBAMA! SANDERS DID NOT. Not only that, but at one point she had the audacity to compare McCain favorably to Obama

"Today, he dismisses voters in the American South--over 1/2 of whom are black voters" -- Liberal_Stalwart71

When did he do this, or given your own tendency to use mindless profanity, ARE YOU JUST SPOUTING SHIT???

"His fans invoke the Confederacy and slave/master mentality." -- Liberal_Stalwart71

Defend this assertion. Don't find a single example and consider yourself done, no prove that say 20% of Bernie's fans do what you allege (Note that I am not even asking for 50%) GO ON, I DARE YOU.

[tk2kewl]

45. when one candidate...

tells black jokes and Gandhi jokes, and uses terms like superpredator, bring them to heel, welfare deadbeats and illegal immigrants, something must be done to keep the "all politicians are the same" meme going.

I don't care if someone still thinks Hillary will be a better president, but to keep trying to push the Bernie is a racist BS is absolutely absurd.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

86. This OP is about Bernie Sanders. If you can't answer the question, that's o.k. Sanders can't either.

...and that's why he's losing. I can't wait to see it.

[classykaren]

32. That's a shame.

[pandr32]

33. Excellent post

Thank you, and I certainly agree with your last three sentences--could have written them myself

[Cha]

197. Aloha, pandr.. I just made a post that I know now she can't respond to b/c BSrs Hid her out of her

own thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=49537

[pandr32]

198. Thanks for the update Cha

[betsuni]

36. K&R!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. till the Black president brought this country to a stable situation, no one would risk a revolution

that's my guess

[OneGrassRoot]

67. I was just thinking something similar in reading the replies above...

I know there have been criticisms of President Obama from those on the left because many now Sanders' supporters feel he didn't push for change hard enough. (And, yes, I believe there is definitely racist, supremacist behavior on the left, so some of it is racist in origin). As I said above, I'm trying to ignore the supporters on both sides -- because this shit is just as nasty as 2008 -- and pay attention to the candidates themselves and, yes, who they choose as surrogates.

I haven't interpreted Sanders' criticism of Obama as being remotely similar in intent to the GOP, nor reflective of some of the Sanders' supporters -- the contingent that loathes both Hillary and Obama. I mean, absolute loathing...the ones who say they'll vote for Trump if Hillary wins the nomination.



When it comes to Sanders and Obama (and now Hillary), I perceive it as the two clashing perspectives of incremental change versus revolution; working within the system or dismantling it from the outside. I understand both sides of that ideological disagreement.

I think it's actually a COMPLIMENT to President Obama that Occupy and even the Arab Spring and other revolutions (regardless of the ultimate outcome) happened under his watch. I think his message of hope and change was sincere and resonated, and something about his presidency provided the space for the idea of revolution to take hold in a big way.

Angry protests happened under Bush, but the possibility of revolution -- with a positive, hopeful vibe to it, even though spurred by anger and frustration -- took root under President Obama.

Maybe that's naive, but that's my take on it. I don't loathe Obama, Hillary or Bernie -- far from it, as I appreciate all three in different ways even if I have strong differences and wish things were done differently -- so I have a different perspective than most.

[DemonGoddess]

216. yup

that SAME Black President who OFFICIALLY reduced the deficit by 1 TRILLION dollars as of Friday!

[Tarheel_Dem]

39. Come on, we both know why. And just FYI "the revolution".....it's bullshit.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

87. Thank you! Finally someone tells the truth! :)

[Paladin]

40. K&R.

[maggies farm]

41. When Obama formed his first cabinet is when the revolution began.

Certainly when my disappointment appeared. Next was the drones, and then the failure to close gitmo.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

88. ...and yet, you didn't answer the OP's question. Didn't even attempt. Just resorts to bashing the

president and deflection.

If you can't answer, then don't worry. Your candidate will lose because of it.

Shit on black voters and the black president, and you will lose. Sanders is learning the hard way.

[maggies farm]

103. I will not put words in another mouth

I am speaking for myself.

However, I reject the assertion that Sanders is racist. Nor can you produce valid and reasonable evidence for this trolling post and you're trolling comment.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

158. If you shit on black voters and the black president, you will lose. Sanders is learning this lesson.

Thanks!

[demwing]

42. Citizens United was the last straw

You can pick that up easily if you think about it long enough, as you say you have...

Afterward, perhaps he hoped Obama would tackle the issue, or maybe just wanted to see how it all sifted out? Maybe he wanted some Senate experience?

Regardless, CU certainly played a critical role.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

89. What does citizens united have to do with the black president? And you proved my point...

Sanders doesn't blame Bush or the Rethugs for this mess. He doesn't blame Bill Clinton for this mess.

But when the black guy comes in, suddenly we need a revolution. That implies that Obama is as bad as or worse that George W. And we know that's not true. W and the Rethugs are the ones who ran this economy into the ground, then turned around and obstructed everything this president tried to do to get us out of it.

[thereismore]

43. He is very pragmatic and knows the right moment has arrived now. nt

[navarth]

48. accusations of racism again...fabulous

see if that sticks to the wall.

(hint: it won't.)

but please proceed, Governor.

No need to thank me for kicking your fabulous thread. You're very welcome.

[FailureToCommunicate]

51. There is so much wrong with your post, I don't know where to start. Then I saw how many hides

you have and thought, maybe this is not the place to counter you point by point. Sounds like you've made your candidate decision, so good for you. But if you're going to vote for someone who, in your words, was a "racist" in her campaign in 2008 against Obama, then it just makes me wonder all the more about the validity of the laundry list of charges in your post.

But I do want to add a plea for reasonableness. If you really believe that Bernie's populist, pro civil rights and economic justice outlook is wrong headed, and that his supporters are mostly racist, sexist, privileged, white men, then I really have to wonder what your main source of news is. Where are you hearing that Bernie's supporters are pretty much the same as Trump's base of support?
I ask because, at none of the countless massive rallies and campaign stops have I seen any evidence of your assertion. Quite the opposite in fact. The tens of thousands who show up to hear his populist, anti establishment message look like a fairly diverse cross section of Americans, not hateful white males like Trump rallies.

Do I wish Bernie were even more the right candidate? Sure. Too bad he couldn't have that same message of sweeping reform and be as eloquent and handsome as Barack Obama, or have military experience, or be a latina, or, or, or. But we're stuck with just two. One, an old white guy that just happens to stand for all the things most democrats yearn for, and the other an old white lady who maybe does or maybe not. She talks the talk, but her record doesn't walk the walk. I wish we had more choices but we don't. So I'm supporting the candidate whose values are most in line with mine and apparently also the new generation of young people just getting into political awakening.

-F2C

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

90. I don't give a damn about HIDES! Don't be silly or childish. I speak my mind.

If you think there's something wrong with my post, that of course is your opinion.

But the facts remain: Sanders neglected to build relationships with black voters. He has bashed this black president and blames him for everything. Then, he runs for office and wonders why black voters are not voting for him in large numbers. DUH!!

[FailureToCommunicate]

120. Your response just confirms what I wrote. Were you too busy to read it? That's fine, I can

tell from reading many of your other responses here that you aren't all that interested in engaging.

You respond by saying Bernie has "bashed this black president and blames him for everything" as fact. It is just not true.

And where is the evidence that Hillary did so many great things for blacks? Where? Any proof? Her support for policies of her husband's that have had a terrible effect disproportional on the black community, must not sit well with you I would hope. And if you are fine with support for policies like that crime bill, well then, I again wonder what news source you listen to.

Bye for now.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

140. Typical. This post is about Sanders. Not Hillary. If you can't direct your comments to the OP, then

why bother responding?

[noiretextatique]

56. What utter bullshit

Not surprising from this group, which has been trying to find some racist intent since he joined the race. Absolutely this most absurd post on this topic to date...congratulations

[Jackie Wilson Said]

62. I would say this group doesnt have to look far at all to find racist intent, not with

Bernie Sanders the man as I think he is not only NOT racist but the opposite of that, but there is racism ALL over this election season on both sides of the aisle.

Lots of it here on this political message board, as well.

I dont agree with the OP's conclusion, but I do also understand she may have earned the right to an opinion that white people haven't earned and wont understand.

I am saddened that this patriotic, wonderful and fantastic liberal black woman feels this way, but the reason she does has much more to do with those surrounding and supporting Bernie than with her.

[OneGrassRoot]

68. Well said, JWS. n/t

[Number23]

124. "but the reason she does has much more to do with those surrounding and supporting Berne"

You nailed that. And nobody needed to hear that message more than the person you are replying to.

[Herman4747]

108. Yes, incredibly absurd! Sad that someone would post it. n/t

[Number23]

125. Since we disgust and bother you so much, PLEASE don't feel like you have to come here and respond

[oldandhappy]

57. He has been saying these things all his life.

He has decades of consistency. I suspect the run for the presidency has more to due with his last term as senator than anything else. Why are you linking this to a black president??!! Crazy.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

92. Reading comprehension is KEY! Go back and read carefully this time.

[Actor]

112. I dont agree or believe Bernie is responding now because Obama is black, but I do

believe the entire country put expectations on Obama that have never been put on any other president, all of which were white, of course.

[oldandhappy]

118. I agree with that.

And a lot of expectations from people just excited to have a president who talked about the environment and jobs and stuff. Twas a lot.

[Actor]

119. The president accomplished so much more than most people realize, and he did so in

an environment unprecedented in our government.

[ismnotwasm]

60. I've been pondering the phenomena of Sanders a lot lately

My politics are feminist politics and feminist politics address both social and economic justice from a number of angles. On a personal level, my political passions are to end destructive "isms"--racism, sexism, ect--not to pretend they no longer exist when convenient or or trot them out when they are, but find a pathway to END sexism, to END racism.

To move to actually improve society is a complex and layered set of tasks and interventions, some of which have been identified and out of those, many that have been allowed to wallow. (affirmative action and reparations and the ERA for instance) I think of Martin O'Malley, and his thorough plan to address criminal justice reform--superior by far to Hillary's or Sanders' plans and I know that some, at least, of the white, male elite of good heart are serious about pathways that actually work. Pathways that will revise power structures, giving up long held power and finding a sort of Political equanimity in doing so.

Power. That's my conclusion-- in order to move forward, Whites must give up power. Males must give up power. There is no way around this, no equivocating. While the pathways may be many and complex, the actual end result is clear to me.

Sanders seems to promise--and I say seems to, because while I have come to intensely dislike the man, there is no denying that millions of people adore him and believe in him-- a pathway that does NOT include a way forward to give up any power, merely simplistic economic message that promises an uneven and unworkable economic pathway to some sort of Unidentified equality at some Non-specified point in the future. I think these promises resonates with far too many people for the wrong reasons and, quite frankly that breaks my heart.

He didn't start a "revolution" until he could, revolutions by nature are adversarial. I get that. One of my other problems with Sanders is that he, his campaign and his supporters, have been given clue after clue after clue, and still didn't pick one up when it comes to how complex social justice really is. If he had, I believe he would have been the next POTUS. Too late now.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

65. I completely agree with this statement

One of my other problems with Sanders is that he, his campaign and his supporters, have been given clue after clue after clue, and still didn't pick one up when it comes to how complex social justice really is. If he had, I believe he would have been the next POTUS. Too late now.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

91. Brilliant, brilliant analysis!!! I love this! Truthful, honest and reasonable.

Thank you so much!

[ismnotwasm]

106. Thank you!

[uponit7771]

145. +1, IThe gender and racial establishment in the DNC is having a temper....

... tantrum right now and will soon have to do some looking inside after they get tired

[Jackie Wilson Said]

63. I find your opinion and comments to be direct reflections of

the Sanders campaign from day one.

From day one it was a sea of white faces, from a state of white faces, and not helping was the single focus most of the supporters had and it sure as hell then and now had/has nothing to do with racism or civil rights or voting rights but everything to do with their pocketbooks.

Now I dont believe Bernie is racist, in fact I believe he is the most non racist white American we have, probably, but that doesnt mean the tone of his campaign and especially his supporters hasn't been completely dismissive of most issues directly impacting black lives or lives of non whites.

As a Bernie voter my reaction to your OP isn't to call you out, but to ask what did he/we do wrong. And I know the answer, have known from the very first day. And no, it isn't your fault that these things have happened. And in no way am I negating what you do know about Bernie, you clearly know him very well, and I suspect, actually, that you are more disappointed than anything else that the person you know so well let you down in the way that he has.

I take solace in one thing, if Bernie Sanders is elected he will be the most aggressive and positive option possible in this election for furthering civil rights; and yet this is how lucky we are, Hillary would be a close runner up to that honor.

I know you may disagree with me on some of this, and that is OK, not only OK but neither of us is learning if there isnt some disagreement here and there.

Knowing people like you are on my side, gives me hope.



Oh, and by the way, we are really really gonna miss President Barack Hussein Obama.




Another poster said this and it nails it

One of my other problems with Sanders is that he, his campaign and his supporters, have been given clue after clue after clue, and still didn't pick one up when it comes to how complex social justice really is. If he had, I believe he would have been the next POTUS. Too late now.

[davenelson5555]

80. What an utter load of crap

I'm sure Sanders never had your vote to begin with. You're likely another in the long list of shills pretending they switched to Hillary from Bernie, in the hopes of inspiring real Sander supporters of doing the same. Spare me, brother.

The man marched with Martin Luther King, and his political positions are unwavering in solidarity with civil rights and minorities in general. He has been nothing but supportive of President Obama, even if they disagree on various issues (despite what Hillary Clinton would have you believe). Meanwhile, you sure are excusing a whole lot of overt racism on the part of Hillary Clinton in order to conjure up a heaping pile of imagined racism on the part of Bernie Sanders.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

93. You only have 22 posts, sweetheart. You know nothing about me. But, carry on...

...but be careful. You are posting in a protected group.

[Number23]

127. "The man marched with Martin Luther King"

[davenelson5555]

148. Your point being?

The OP has fashioned a tinfoil hat, and accused Bernie Sanders of some kind of absurd and abstract strain of racism due to the timing of his revolution. Maybe I'm a complete moron and you know better (I'm sure you think that you do), but to my minuscule brain a man who chained himself to other civil right dissenters resulting in being beaten and arrested by police and marching with Martin Luther King does not strike me as somebody who has a racist bone in his body. Quite the opposite. He championed civil rights when it counted, while Hillary stood behind an anti-civil rights icon running for president. How do you square that?

[Number23]

149. That old "he marched with MLK" crap has been tossed around so much as some sort of substitute for

anything that he could have and should have been doing since I don't see how any thinking person could still toss it out there without being mortified of the "quality" of their argument.

He championed civil rights when it counted,

What the hell are you talking about? Do civil rights no longer matter? I'm sorry, was equality granted when I was wasn't looking? Do we have the same educational, career opportunities now? Do we have the same quality and longevity of life now? We do??! Well damn, now your post is making perfect sense and definitely sounds like something an informed black person would say!

He championed civil rights when it counted, while Hillary stood behind an anti-civil rights icon running for president.

Is this the old 'Hillary was a Goldwater girl when she was 16' line? Man, you've got ALL the talking points swallowed whole, don't you? And the fact that none of them make a bit of difference or sense seems to mean absolutely nothing to you. You'll do extremely well in this forum. Yessir.

[davenelson5555]

150. I'm sorry the 60's civil rights movement doesn't carry much water for you

It still carries much water for many other people, and these sentiments are more than "talking points" friend. They're facts. Maybe they're inconvenient facts, and they're so "2 months ago" but I really couldn't give two shits. No, the civil rights movement didn't stop in the 60's. However, they shaped Bernie Sanders' political convictions and there's no denying that. And Hillary Clinton has shown little conviction for much beyond personal ambition. Again, those are not talking points. They're quantifiable and verifiable facts. You and your forum can spin yourselves dizzy for all I care. I don't give a rip.

[Number23]

167. The idea that someone doing the "he marched with MLK while Hillary was a Goldwater girl" spiel

is accusing OTHER people of "spinning" is absolutely precious and adorable. And accusing me of saying or even thinking that the 60s Civil Rights Movement doesn't carry water with me is even more precious. The fact that his supporters can only point to the 60s Civil Rights Movement as the one DEFINITIVE thing that Sanders has done for the black community goes a hell of a long way in explaining why Bernie Sanders has not won the black vote in one single primary or caucus. Not ONE. ANYWHERE.

Like I said, with these dishonest, BS talking points that you appear to have swallowed whole, you'll do great on DU. Outside of DU, probably not so much.

[davenelson5555]

169. I'm glad you find me precious and adorable

You'd be surprised how often I'm told that.

I'm sorry if you don't think voluntarily getting beaten up and arrested wasn't enough for the black community. Do you think Nixon-in-a-pantsuit would put as much on the line for anybody other than herself? Are you really that freaking cynical? School me. Tell me what Hillary Clinton did for the black community that Bernie Sanders failed to do. I'm all ears.

These aren't dishonest talking points. I'm being genuine and sincere. How am I being dishonest? Please enlighten me, because all you're doing so far is quibbling over semantics.

[Number23]

170. Sanders marching was admirable but I don't understand why you are acting like what he

did was so unusual. It wasn't. I'm happy he went to the March on Washington, but the idea that this somehow makes him some Civil Rights Immortal is complete bullshit and is usually only touted by the most clueless among us.

And I'm not the slightest bit interested in "schooling" you on what Hillary has done for the black community because no one here is fronting like she was some civil rights savior like you are so tragically trying to do about Sanders.

But I still think it's hilarious that your standards for Civil Rights Hero are not only so damn low, that apparently, even if whatever was done happened FIFTY YEARS AGO and practically nothing has been done since, they're still a Hero in your eyes. With standards that pitiful, I'm surprised that everyone doesn't fit your standards of Civil Rights Demi-god.

[davenelson5555]

171. He did more than simply join the March on Washington, but you know that.

He chained himself to black protestors in sit-ins, was beaten up by police and arrested. For the black community. C'mon, admit it: putting himself in harm's way for a fight that wasn't his own but one he believed in was extraordinary. His march with MLK didn't take nearly as much selflessness as that, but give him some freaking credit. You don't have to consider him some kind of Civil Rights luminary. But don't act like what he did was insignificant or un-noteworthy. Far from it.

And who care that it was FIFTY YEARS AGO? The time period is a solid metaphor that the man puts his money where his mouth is. No one here could possibly front that Hillary Clinton was a civil rights savior because she stood for somebody who opposed civil rights. But, I guess that was FIFTY YEARS AGO and we all know how much she likes to change her tune. Like she so adamantly opposed marriage equality only FOURTEEN YEARS AGO, only to flip eleven years later. I guess you're OK with your candidate flipping from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other. Maybe you're a really trusting person, and I admire that. But as for me, I prefer my candidate to have stable, reliable stances that reflect liberal values. I guess you don't. Oh well.

[Number23]

175. "chained, beaten and arrested" too bad that only one of those things is actually true

If you want to act as though this one or two events that he did FIFTY YEARS AGO is the totality of all things great and small, please do. No one gives the first damn and certainly not the black folks that Sanders has been failing miserably with as per the results of every single primary and caucus held so far. You can keep squatting in the 60s, the rest of us are asking 'what have you done lately?" and the answer is "not much of a damn thing."

So you got two white people running, one of them has the support of DOZENS of black organizations and civil rights icons, ones that were actually beaten, arrested and marched REPEATEDLY not one or two times, not to mention the support of women's groups, Jewish groups, gay rights' groups, etc. etc. etc. You know, the true Democratic base. And to try to counter this -- and believe me, I truly get why people would feel the need to counter this, mainly because it is simply GOT to be beyond mortifying and embarrassing that the "liberaliest liberally liberal" is getting creamed by the more mainstream candidate even among liberal groups -- his supporters keep trying to portray him as some Civil Rights Lion because of one event that happened FIFTY YEARS AGO. And these same folks just for the life of them cannot understand why most folks can barely muster up the energy to care and actually find their efforts either stupid, patronizing or both. It's pretty freaking hilarious.

[davenelson5555]

179. "Chained, beaten and arrested" - all of those things are true

All of those things are true (please tell me which ones are not true), and no, they're not the totality of all things great and small. You simply are unwilling to grant them authenticity/respect because you've strapped yourself to Hillary Clinton, and refuse to be intellectually honest. Because Hillary has been endorsed by black civil rights icons whose quantity of beatings surpass Sanders', his actions are not worth a damn. Pathetic. Because Clinton has particular endorsements that Sanders doesn't, she is the "true" Democratic base and he is not. Pathetic. You Clinton supporters' desperation to delegitimize Sanders by pointing to Clinton's endorsements and success by way of the political machinery at her disposal is PATHETIC. For such a superior candidate, why hasn't she sewn this up yet? Why is Sanders only 194 delegates behind?

You can keep squatting in your miserable entrenched position, where whatever politically benefits Hillary Clinton is truth and relevant and anything that doesn't is false and irrelevant. We all know which candidate relies on prevarication and deception in pursuit of the nomination. It ain't my candidate, and I can't wait until my state (California) has its say in the primary. It ain't over yet.

[Number23]

180. No one has said his reactions aren't worth a damn. But his actions don't make him some great

Civil Rights Lion that so many of his supporters are trying to pretend that he is. And if ANYTHING should make that clear, it should be the fact that Sanders has not won the black vote ANYWHERE.

And yes, when Democrats overwhelmingly vote for you, when the members of the TRUE Democratic base -- minorities, women, gays -- support you in much, much higher numbers than they do your opponent, that makes you the TRUE Democratic choice. It doesn't surprise me that many Sanders supporters, many of whom are independents and/or rat fucking Republicans, don't get that.

I am beyond bored with this idiotic conversation. Sanders has run one of the crappiest campaigns the political world has ever seen and so much of his support comes from the "left" equivalent of Trump supporters. And what's worse, Sanders used to berate his unhinged supporters for their behavior but now seems to be adopting those same behaviors himself. I can't wait for California either because by then, all of this BS will be over.

[davenelson5555]

181. I'll agree to one single point

I too am beyond bored with this idiotic conversation. Peace be with you.

[mike_c]

94. I think you're asking the wrong question....

We should be wondering why Senator Sanders has spent his entire adult life carefully constructing a facade of egalitarianism, tolerance for diversity, and advocacy for social justice? Why, I ask you! Why?! He was so clever that it almost worked, too!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

96. HA! Touche!

[JI7]

95. This is the last election he would realistically run in

Because of age. So part of it was about last chance.

I don't think Obama has much to do with it from Sanders perspective. I think it's about Obama more when it comes to some who support him.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

97. He should have run against the president in 2012. He was calling for him to be primaried. Why not

Sanders himself?

[Gothmog]

98. Sanders has no respect for President Obama and wants to throw away Obama's legacy

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

99. YEP! Some of his supporters are feigning outrage and ignorance.

[elfin]

102. Simple - he sees his time is much more limited to make a bigger impact

He woke up one day, looked in the mirror and thought "Damn, now or never."

This geezer knows what a geezer knows when that realization hits you in the solar plexus.

Not more complicated than that IMO.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

104. Hmmmm....interesting. What an opportune time, then. Welp, good luck to him, then.

[noretreatnosurrender]

107. I'm Really Tired of

the disingenuous attacks against Sanders on this issue and the faux outrage about sexism. This is one thing I will remember after this election contest is over. It's disgusting and I will never forgive those people who pushed these smears. They are ugly and they are totally without merit. This is gutter politics at it's worst. I expect it of the Republican trolls but to have my fellow Democrats join in and sing from the same page is shameful.

[dubyadiprecession]

109. I'm not worried about BS, His campaign will be a ....

footnote in american history. Does anyone remember john anderson? see another footnote.

[brush]

115. I don't think Bernie is racist. I do think some of his campaign people and many of his . . .

supporters don't even think about black or other POC when making their campaign plans.

It's all about them and people, until they realize that they need those black and POC votes, then out come the Stockholm Syndrome attitudes.

[Dems to Win]

117. Why did Occupy Wall Street wait until we had a black prez to organize against greed and corruption?

Because of the crash of 2008 and its aftermath.

Banks and insurance companies committed massive fraud, brought the economy to its knees, stole millions of homes through mortgage fraud -- they got bailed out and no one went to jail for the crimes. People who had lost their homes and savings got nothing. Most of them have still not recovered, and likely never will.

Young people can't even get a foot onto the ladder of a good job with benefits and buying a first home, and likely never will. Declining unemployment doesn't feel very good if all the jobs pay $10 an hour, at best.

Bernie's campaign is the natural extension of the Occupy movement. He stepped up to run when the issues he'd been working on for his whole career became the urgent cry of despair in the streets.

[Number23]

128. FINALLY, an intelligent thoughtful answer from someone who disagrees

Even though that "urgent cry" you're talking about has been coming from minority communities for centuries.

[Dems to Win]

136. Definitely. We need a BETTER New Deal, that includes everyone this time.

No red-lining so that minorities can't benefit from home ownership programs, for example.

I truly believe that is Bernie's intent, if he were to become prez.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

126. what???

where have you been for the last ten years???

[Perogie]

130. Maybe you should ask him instead of speculate

If you think it was a calculated move you're reading too much into his actions. Maybe it just took him a few years before he finally said that's enough.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

183. He already answered. Told me that my family's vote in the American South mean nothing.

Most black people live and vote in the American South. If that wasn't a dog whistle, I don't know what is.

[Number23]

131. The "Southern votes don't count but YEAARRRGGH Wyoming!!11" posts would give any thinking person

pause.

It's pretty well established that many -- I don't think most though -- Sanders supporters are racist, they make no effort to conceal their contempt for black voters. And that some of these people happen to be black themselves will come as no surprise to any black person whatsoever. We've suffered "brothers and sisters" like this in our communities for ever.

I honestly believe that his lack of interest and focus on minority communities for the last fifty years is what will cost him this nomination. His overheated supporters kept saying "once black people learn who is he, we'll love him" seemingly fucking OBLIVIOUS to the fact that for many of us, the fact that we didn't know who he was already sealed the deal. You are seriously running for president of the party that minorities represent the backbone and very foundation of, and expect us to vote for you and none of have clue the first who you are or what you've done despite 25 years in Congress?? REALLY????

So if nothing less, perhaps his downfall will be a cautionary tale to the next leftier than left person that wants to run on stuff they did before most of us were born in lieu of anything substantive since.

[UMTerp01]

137. Are some racist? Sure. Just like some Hillary voters are.

You have racist Dems I'm sure for Bernie and Hillary. I think the contempt I've seen from many Bernie supporters toward Black voters is a type of white privilege elitist liberalism. They are good with the Black voters who tow the line and support Bernie, but have major contempt for the ones who support Hillary Clinton. You support Bernie for your reasons and they will support Hillary for theirs. Leave it at that. The last thing I want to hear from a white person is what is in my best interest cuz you don't have a fucking clue. Stay in your damn lane.

[uponit7771]

147. Yes !! If Sanders had any real track record of leading people wouldn't have to get to know him

... I honestly think his bubble told him that people hate Hillary enough for him to win and didn't think one second about blacks or Hispanic voters

[chknltl]

132. Sanders DID NOT start any revolutions.

As any fan of Thom Hartmann will tell you, a successful politician waits for the parade to pass before jumping out in front of it. The revolution has been brewing for decades, in some cases the revolution has been brewing since the founding of this nation.

Those of us who listened in to Thom Hartmann's "Brunch With Bernie" hour weekly knew that this man understood the needs of the middle class-understood we were being ripped off by the oligarchy. This was the revolution that has been brewing since Regan.

We have been begging Bernie to get out in front of this revolution for many years now. Last year he filled us with hope when he broke the news that he had sent out exploratory committee's to each state to investigate if a Sanders run was even viable. He warned us back then that it wouuld require a bi-partisan revolution, that if there were enough informed-dissastified voters to lead, he would lead us. Then he threw his hat in the ring.

No, Bernie did not create the revolution....we did.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

139. An intelligent response! Thank you! I used to listen to "Brunch with Bernie" for years. I purchased

the podcast and listened to Thom Hartmann for many years, but I had to give him up a few years ago because he started to get too boring for me.

If you start the revolution, please keep it going. You can achieve your goals without all the vitriol. True revolutionaries bring people together, not marginalize them. And I've seen too many Sanders' supporters alienate others. And in my view, Sanders, his wife, and surrogates have done the same thing by writing off the American South and other communities that didn't support them.

Think what you will about President Obama, but he did not write off voters or states that he knew weren't probably going to support him in the GE. But we saw that that wasn't the case. He did win some Southern states.

[Blue_Adept]

133. Post #129 Jury Results

On Sat Apr 16, 2016, 01:25 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

dog whistle THWEET THWEET THWEET THWEET THWEET THWEET
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=49199

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This newbie poster has made the effort to enter a protected group (AA) for no other reason than to insult and demean the author of the OP. Please send the message that these nasty tactics are not acceptable on DU.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Apr 16, 2016, 01:33 AM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I was originally not going to hide this but from what I've seen the AA group has been trolled disproportionate amount of time.

This may require some action by the MIRT team.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: POSTER OF THE OP.; YOU ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE. REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF THIS JURY VOTE, THIS IS BOORISH, SOPHOMORIC AND NOT ACCEPTABLE
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[RandySF]

134. Sorry Bernie Bros. you couldn't censor this one.

[ecstatic]

135. +1000. There's only one thing we disagree on :

It's sad because I really used to admire Bernie Sanders

I've never liked the guy. His delivery has always rubbed me the wrong way.

[Chitown Kev]

138. My honest answer

1) 2008 and the financial crisis gave him his bread and butter issues....and truthfully, Sanders is not all that different from John Edwards.

2)Which is why that all of MLK stuff/race stuff sounds phony coming out of his mouth...he's a solid vote on those issues (and other progressive issues other than guns), as a rule.

3) He ran because Elizabeth Warren didn't.

This revolution stuff, while it has a little bit of basis in his background, was more or less on the fly.

[JI7]

141. i disagree about edwards

Edwards was actually pretty conservative including his voting record.

He only ran as a progressive to try to win votes. In Sanders case he actually does have a mostly liberal record. And he actually does believe in the issues he speaks about.

[Chitown Kev]

142. I did slightly misstate that

To be more precise, Sanders 2016 sounds a lot like Edwards in 2008...Sanders had more of a record to back himself up than Edwards.

[uponit7771]

143. DING DING DING !! I posted something similar to this before reading this thread. GREAT MINDS!!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

153. As always, love! ;)

[gollygee]

146. I thought he probably thought it was a good time because of Occupy Wall Street

There was a movement he could latch onto.

[RepubliCON-Watch]

151. They are not just gangs of kids anymore.

They are often the kinds of kids who are called SUPER-PREDATORS. No conscious, no empathy! We can talk about how they ended up that way, but first we have to BRING THEM TO HEEL--

Hell no would I support such a pompous, race-baiting candidate.

[Akamai]

156. What utter bullshit! The idea that Bernie announced at this time because Obama is AA.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

160. Ask Sanders to build his coalition of blacks, Hispanics, women and people of all walks of life...

...not alienate them because they don't support him.

You have to build these relationships, not demand that they vote for him simply because he marched. Lots of people marched. The cradle of the Civil Rights Movement is in the American South. He wrote off the south, as did many of his fanatics.

And you wonder why people speculate his bigotry...or at the very least, a kind of elitism that frankly is a major turn off, given his message of inclusion and solidarity.

Bernie Sanders is full of shit.

[pnwmom]

161. I wondered that myself. But another way of looking at it is why did he wait

till there was a highly qualified woman -- the most highly qualified candidate in decades -- and go after her?

Why didn't he run against George Bush?

Between all his years in the House and Senate, he had lots of opportunities . . . but he decided to go after Hillary.

Madeline Kunin, the governor of Vermont, says the same thing happened when he ran against her in her re-election campaign.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/02/04/when-bernie-sanders-ran-against-vermont/kNP6xUupbQ3Qbg9UUelvVM/story.html

By any measure I was regarded as a progressive governor. If I was vulnerable, it was for being too liberal. As a legislator, my maiden speech on the floor of the Vermont House was in favor of ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. My first priority as governor was universal access to kindergarten. I set a record for a Vermont governor’s appointees; women filled half of my cabinet. I sought out talented women, many of whom were the first women to head their agencies.

Women draw on a different network than men and can share an alternative definition of “qualified.” Hillary Clinton’s campaign staff, according to Fast Company, is over 50 percent female. Sanders’ campaign began with a a predominantly male inner circle and continues to face accusation of keeping women out of the top ranks.

When Sanders was my opponent he focused like a laser beam on “class analysis,” in which “women’s issues” were essentially a distraction from more important issues. He urged voters not to vote for me just because I was a woman. That would be a “sexist position,” he declared.

[Number23]

168. "The cradle of the Civil Rights Movement is in the American South." PREACH IT!! TELL THESE PEOPLE

Because they appear to have NO concept of history and are as ignorant as they are dishonest.

The cradle of the Civil Rights Movement is in the American South. He wrote off the south, as did many of his fanatics

And they even found a couple of sad and confused black people here that are helping spread this "Northern/Western black folks are different from Southern blacks" BULLSHIT. I am so disgusted by so much of the unadulterated garbage that gets posted here I can't describe it.

[Actor]

182. He made a ton of mistakes. Too many of his most ardent followers or supporters look and sound

way too much like Trump followers.

Bernie Sanders has never once profited from his position, and has always done the right thing other than a couple times on the gun issue, but he did not understand the optics of his campaign, for the most part, anyway.

Problem is he is now lumped in with tons of folks who are not qualified or fit to tie his shoes. Most of these people would likely sell out the first chance they got if they were in the position he was in.

Who secedes him will say a lot about this time in our history.

And, I think most anger at him, like in this thread, is actually at his supporters, who I would characterize with a couple tough words but I dont dare.

And coincidence or not and in Bernie's case I believe it is, why now?

Why is it that all the ills of this country were discovered the day after the first black guy was elected!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

184. You wrote: And, I think most anger at him, like in this thread, is actually at his supporters.

My response:

Many of his supporters are good, decent people who I know are passionate about Sanders, but who will also support whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being. It is the fanatics who have yelled and screamed the loudest and who continue to do Sanders a disservice.

But no, my post is directed squarely at Sanders. And again, he is the one who alienated voters in the South. He's the one--he and his wife, their surrogates and supporters--who demonized and antagonized voters in the South. Again, this during a time when there is a concerted, vigorous effort underway by the Republicans to strip away the voting rights of the exact same people.

So, I continue to ask why instead of building the relationships with black voters over time, he waited until a black president, who he has repeatedly derided, to run for office. At 74 years old, no less.

And again: everyone is posting in a protected group--the African American Group. That's why this OP is pertinent.

[Actor]

185. I completely understand. Maybe i discounted the alienation done by Bernie himself, whether

or not that was intentional by him or just the actions of a white privileged male.

Everybody, including Bernie, "changed" when we elected our first black president.

Well, not black people, they are still dealing with it as they have from day one.

BTW, excuse my presumption, and thanks for helping me understand it better.

p,s. Just read some of your interactions with some of the others on this thread, wow...the shit you have to put up with, the insistence that your experience is invalid, etc. It must be nice having people be able to tell you what your experience is and what is what.

[Kind of Blue]

174. And June can't come soon enough for me

to cast my vote for Hillary Clinton. I can't wait till we send him back to the Senate to manage the state he knows best. So maybe he can start building a PoC coalition by fixing the rate we're incarcerated in his state. Maybe he can start by listening to black leaders there who say they're invisible to him. Maybe he can start by decreasing the rate of PoC student suspensions. Maybe he could raise the minimum wage in his state for a start. Maybe he could explain why he had his civil rights arrest record expunged while so many Freedom Riders wear theirs like a badge. The hypocrite.

Flying on a private plane to talk to the richest organization on earth about income inequality. The hypocrite. What a laugh.

Please! The man's whole campaign has been marred with one racist gaff after another. And My God, I've never seen a nastier candidate. Romney wasn't even that nasty during the debate. Bush wasn't even as nasty. Gore was castigated for approaching Bush during their debate. The way he spoke to Hillary, my goodness, clan of the cave bear much???

Bernie Sanders oozes casual racism masquerading as a man for all people. I have never in my life been sickened by a liberal presidential candidate who doesn't care to know the first thing about his base. I've found at least two statements he's made stating that we're are not a part of his base. He couldn't be clearer than he has been.

My sister is in literal tears right now just finding out from Sanders' skimpy resume that they're born on the same day. And she's ready to tweet your post to her followers, if given your permission.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

190. Please do, my friend. I'd be honored.

[Kind of Blue]

192. Oh thanks, brilliant LS71!

My sister is a twitter fiend ALWAYS posting about Bernie. The girl loves the fight and she's not a big HRC fan, but has been saying from the beginning "she's the only one running." She's been asking has your AA friend responded and I didn't want to hound you. I'm so happy to tell her you say it's okay

Now, if I can only get thru the coming the night and days with all the talk your attached post will generate

[Thinkingabout]

176. Interesting, huh, the president who was successful in getting healthcare through congress, go figure

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

177. While BS's "medicare for all" was blocked in subcommittee!

[aikoaiko]

187. Less to do with Obama being black and shifting to the right significantly after "Hope & Change"

No where has Bernie every said or implied that "the bad economy, the wars, everything is the black man's fault."

Its nice that you think Bernie's ok when he nods, smiles, and says hello, but he becomes a racist if he wants more for this country than President Obama was able to provide and that HRC won't even try to provide.

[JustAnotherGen]

188. He's not a racist

He is an opportunist.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

191. That he blames Obama for not deliverings "effective" Hope and Change the way YOU and Sanders wanted

it is not his fault.

What do you not understand? The black president has faced unprecedented obstruction. Everything he tried to do was blocked, derailed, ridiculed. Sanders himself saw how this president was treated but he ignored that. Instead of going after the Republicans (and some coward Democrats) who were responsible for the obstruction and disrespect, he directs the blame at the president himself.

But now he's losing and that's such a shame.

When you shit on the president and his black supporters in the American South, this is the result.

June cannot come fast enough for me, but I actually think his loss was apparent with the whipping he got last night in New York.

I can't wait to see him go down...

[aikoaiko]

194. You are not reading what I wrote.

That Obama couldn't deliver because of congress is one issue-- that he stopped trying is another.

He even stopped talking about hope and change in even vague those terms. I expect will hear them again when he wraps things up.

President Obama asked us to hold him accountable for his campaign promises and Bernie was one of the few people who respected him and his positions enough to do so. Most others, and even you, apparently, gave up on Obama the candidate. Bernie also criticized severely the Republicans for their stances every step of the way.

I see the math as well as you and can see that HRC will probably win. If you weren't so hate-filled you'd be impressed with the how far and deep the Sanders campaign has run against the Clinton machine.

People expected Bernie to crash and burn upon take-off like Webb, Chaffee, and O'Malley, but he's still here fighting the good fight which includes, sometimes, criticizing President Obama.

[JustAnotherGen]

199. She's not hate filled except for when

She shows her hatred for the Clintons.

You don't read much back here or you would know that automatically.

[aikoaiko]

200. I wasn't really commenting on her position on the Clintons

But if you don't see any Bernie-hate in her posts in this thread, we'll just have to disagree.

[JustAnotherGen]

201. You should - search her User Name

Search it in in the AFAm Group. Do a year -

You might be surprised.

[aikoaiko]

204. when I have time I will, but even if she hates Clintons with the heat of a 1000 suns

...I don't understand why that is relevant to the my comments about her comments about Bernie?

Maybe I will after I see what I see.

I will say that I've been reading this group almost daily ever since the BLM disruptions at NN16 and Seattle. I try not to post too much because it was gently suggested that I STFU and listen.



I think I have learned a lot from reading this group.

[JustAnotherGen]

205. I don't want to speak directly for her

And I believe she was 'juried' out of her own thread . . .

I suspect she thinks like me.

America is 99.99999% bullshit.
The American Dream never applied to me.
Nothing changes for black Americans until we 'take it' for ourselves.

She's telling folks to wake up - he's a bullshit 30 year in Washington DC politician and he's no better than any other life time politician. Self serving, out for himself, and trying to leave a legacy.

That's what I suspect.

You can't see it though - I suspect you have fallen for this revolution talk. It's not going to happen. I'm sorry -but it's not.

Incremental change for the whole - raw capitalism for the individual black American. That's how it works for us.


ETA - this shows you- she's not 'picking on Sanders' for being Sanders. She just calls shit as she sees it. Some folks call it 'hate' - those of us who have no stars in our eyes call it truth:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/118729338

[aikoaiko]

206. Fair enough -- thank you.

[Cha]

195. Excellent Question, LS.. and one the members of The Obama Diary have been asking, too.

Thank you for your Righteous Rant.. you have hit on all the hot spots!

Why did BS wait until after the President Obama Revolution to come along and try and degrade him when he was working so diligently against the unprecedented Obstruction in Congress?!!

BS always whines it's not enough and acts like Obama is King for 8 years.. Hillary stands up for the President and says he doesn't get enough credit for everything he does.

And, then sanders advocates for the President to be primaried in 2012 for disingenuous bullshite.

I think BS counted on the President not being as popular in 2016 as he is.. holding over 50%. And, now that he has a clue how damaging that is.. he was trying to suck up to him the last I looked. But, that could change so please be careful of whiplash.

...................................................................................................................................................

LOL@BS.. Now he's tellling Spike Lee that he has a "friendly relationship with PBO"..

snip//

So BS is in Brooklyn trying to suck up to President Obama because he's finally figured out how popular he is when all he's done is diss him during his Presidency and out on the campaign trail.. him and his genius surrogates.

Now what is that called?

Sanders penned the book endorsement for "Buyer's Remorse: How Obama let Progressives Down" by Bill Press. "Bill Press makes the case ... Read this book," Sanders writes in a blurb featured atop the book's front cover.

Press' book, which is out a day after the Iowa caucuses on February 2, is about "the many ways President Obama has failed to live up to either his promises or his progressive potential," according to promotional materials.

My main concern about Bernie Sanders is the fact that he was an independent his entire career and became a democrat just to run for President. Democrats would make a big mistake to nominate a person that views President Obama as a failure.

If a voter has a choice between a republican that hates Obama and a democrat that does not fully support President Obama...The republican will win every time

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/31/1477627/-New-Bill-Press-book-Sanders-calls-Pres-Obama-a-failure

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/275330-sanders-touts-friendly-relationship-with-obama

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=94650

[highprincipleswork]

203. Listen, we all thought Obama would govern like a Progressive, those who believed in him anyway,

but the simple truth is that he didn't. He gave away too much, negotiated from weakness, met them halfway before negotiations even began, etc.

Bernie, even in his calls for someone to primary him, was only reflecting this simple point of view.

Bernie is not the one who changed. Obama did not live up to the promises, implied or otherwise, of his campaign. Frankly, I think it's one of the worst bait and switches I've ever seen. For most of his presidency I've been wishing I backed Hilary Clinton.

Now, however, when my choice is between a clear Progressive, Bernie, and Hillary Clinton (I know you guys will insist she is Progressive - maybe on some social issues, but definitely not on economy or war, which are very important to me) I am definitely backing Sanders all the way.

I don't care if they are Black or White or male and female. I'm talking politics here, and who is going to give away my lunch money!!!! I'm just talking about the feeling that someone is going to get rolled here, and I do not feel Bernie is going to allow himself to get rolled and he isn't going to roll over either.

So, that's it without the birdseed. Obama has been a profound disappointment to this Liberal/Progressive. Beyond belief really. I truly couldn't figure out what he was doing until I simply accepted that he has wanted things to be that way, well other than the fact that he faced monumental opposition. Heck, I'll give you that. The racism directed towards him has been abominable, disgusting, deplorable. But I'm looking at what he himself actually did and tried to do, and these are not the actions of a Progressive, as I know it.

Now, I'm risking backlash here on all of this. I'm risking people hating me and because he is my candidate Bernie. But we've got to come to grips with reality. It's intrinsically sad that the first Black President is going to leave office in the next year. But I'd like to replace him with a true Progressive, and I don't care what gender or color they may have. At all. And I don't think Bernie does either. But he wants to make sure the Progressive voice is being heard. He wants Americans to know how weird their worldview is, and provincial, and defeatist, and so rightward leaning through years of Reagan propaganda that it doesn't even bear witness to reality anymore.

Do you realize that Great Britain is now warning LGBT community that they should heed travel warnings if they come to this country!!!

How's that for Progressive?

I believe Bernie is surprised as anybody that he has gotten this far and done this much. As he says, it's less of a testimony to him that it is to US, and to the feeling that we've just had enough and that it's time for an immediate and large course correction. Of course, he deserves the credit for leading the charge and getting the word out there. He deserves credit as leader of that movement, and I will follow that man and that movement because they reflect fairly accurately what I think is right better than anything else out there.

Go Bernie!

[JustAnotherGen]

207. Nobody hates you for loving Bernie

Just understand -

We don't like it being inferred we are simple minded ninnies because some here choose to NOT support Sanders.

There is a rare black American who is not supporting Sanders who would not gulp, hold their nose and vote against the Republicans.

What we are disturbed by - is the petulant fits from White Protestant Americans who if they don't get their way will throw us to the Trump Boys and Girls Machetes.

If Clinton is the nominee - you won't throw us to those violent racists - will you?

[highprincipleswork]

209. First of all, thank you for your kind words. I feel a little silly, because I did not fully realize

I was commenting in the African-American group in the first place. I mean, I am not African-American, and though I'm not a big fan of the private groups, I really do wish to respect what goes on in here. So, please forgive me for ramming around a bit in here with my mouth.

That said, the split that has apparently developed between the POV of "White Liberals" and Black Democrats is really disturbing, to me at least. I mean both parties are seeing seismic shifts in coalitions, and I definitely feel caught in the middle. Perhaps it's understandable to the compassion of Black Democrats that White Liberals could actually feel quite dumbstruck that our two groups don't apparently share the same beliefs right now as to what are the major issues, who is Liberal or Progressive, and who can most successfully lead he charge to victory and to successful implementation. anymore. And the powers that be don't necessarily make that easy either.

So, surely I will always support the fight against racial injustice and for racial equality. I am appalled at the racism that has surfaced against President Obama and against PoC citizens throughout the country.

At the same time, I am also concerned about my own self, as we all should be, and my survival depends on taking care of the economy, wealth inequality, staying out of senseless wars, having a decent means of supporting myself or getting legitimate help from Social Services, free and fair and verifiable elections, doing something immediate and strong about the real threats of Climate Change. These are issues that really, really concern me, and I believe Bernie has a better program and POV on all of these.

So, it's really an awkward time, particularly when people have really different and strong views as to who is best and where the Democratic Party should go from here..

Thanks again for your tone with me. I truly appreciate it, and believe we will need plenty of goodwill to handle the final coming together with party unity, whatever form that may take.

[JustAnotherGen]

210. These are all things I understand

At the same time, I am also concerned about my own self, as we all should be, and my survival depends on taking care of the economy, wealth inequality, staying out of senseless wars, having a decent means of supporting myself or getting legitimate help from Social Services, free and fair and verifiable elections, doing something immediate and strong about the real threats of Climate Change. These are issues that really, really concern me, and I believe Bernie has a better program and POV on all of these.

Only I felt O'Malley was the only person representing me fully and at my core - and he had something I've only seen from three other politicians (Obama, Carter, Eisenhower) - humility.

He could say - I was wrong and I'm learning and here's how I would do it differently.

Where we differ - you perhaps as a white male - have afforded to you certain security and safety that is not guaranteed to me - a black woman.


At a higher level - my nephew - Princeton educated and just about at the end of his first year on Wall Street - can be murdered by a civilian (Zimmerman) or a cop on his way to work and he will be convicted of his OWN murder.

A white male drug dealer in Arkansas can wield a gun and get a stop at an ice cream place on his way to the police station.


We simply live in a different reality. A white woman driving to work at the Dairy Queen with a GED has more rights and sense of 'security' in America than me with my advanced degree as a high earner - I saw what happened to Sandra Bland - she's me.

It's this VERY most basic thing that while the average white Sanders supporter can say "black lives matter' - those of us who are black say -

Yeah - after you get yours. I don't blame you. You gotta be for you.

But my Kairei going to his VC job making $130K a year - he matters more to me (even though he is a high earner without student loan debt due to scholarships) than a million white men working at WalMart. He just does.

[Cha]

208. Oh boo hoo.. President Obama is Progressive. Progressive means getting things done and that's

what has happened over the last 7 years.

Obama has gotten more accomplished for our County than BS ever has or ever will. He has an excellent legacy and Hillary Clinton will build on that.

[Digital Puppy]

211. These people kill me when they don't see Obama walking on water...

"He is a huge disappointment to me since he didn't give me rainbow sprinkles and sparkle ponies"
"But he is a war monger!"
"But, but, he didn't close Guantanamo!"
"He like the bankers!!"

Waahhh, wahh, I'm going to stay home and pout because I can afford to have a bunch of overt racists and sexists running the country - cause I can blend in - rather than helping other people who may not be as fortunate or privileged as I.

This must be the new definition of "progressiveness"...make sure you get yours and be a one-issue voter.

No thanks. It's illuminating though that these are supposedly the 'good guys' and 'smart ones' in the electorate.

[Cha]

214. I know, DP.. they all have the same mantra.. "disappointed".. BS actually used that word when

he wanted the President primaried in 2012. I have no sympathy for their ignorance.

Thank you!

[Jackie Wilson Said]

212. His actual success, especially in light of the outrageous obstruction, is monumental.

Add to that were any Republican president anytime in the past 8 years we would at a minimum be in a full scale ground war in the ME or possibly a version of a World War.

[fleabiscuit]

213. HOPE

It was because of hope.

Sanders is capitalizing on the lost hope and unrealistic expectations voters placed on PBO. Expectations that Jesus Christ himself couldn’t have gotten past the obstructionists.

Then voters stayed home and became Judas and didn’t give him a congress. I’ll leave any analogy about who is putting the nails in the cross to the individual.

As an atheist I still won’t abandon HOPE, but I’m voting Hillary for SCOPE

"Hope" is the thing with feathers
BY EMILY DICKINSON

“Hope” is the thing with feathers -
That perches in the soul -
And sings the tune without the words -
And never stops - at all -

And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -
And sore must be the storm -
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm -

I’ve heard it in the chillest land -
And on the strangest Sea -
Yet - never - in Extremity,
It asked a crumb - of me.