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MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 04:47 AM Apr 2016

When Whites Just Don’t Get It, Part 6

Nicholas Kristof APRIL 2, 2016

LET’S start with a quiz. When researchers sent young whites and blacks out to interview for low-wage jobs in New York City armed with equivalent résumés, the result was:

A) Whites and blacks were hired at similar rates.

B) Blacks had a modest edge because of affirmative action.

C) Whites were twice as likely to get callbacks.

The answer is C, and a black applicant with a clean criminal record did no better than a white applicant who was said to have just been released from 18 months in prison.

A majority of whites believe that job opportunities are equal for whites and blacks, according to a PBS poll, but rigorous studies show that just isn’t so.

Back in 2014, I did a series of columns called “When Whites Just Don’t Get It” to draw attention to inequities, and I’m revisiting it because public attention to racial disparities seems to be flagging even as the issues are as grave as ever.

But let me first address some reproaches I’ve received from indignant whites, including the very common: You would never write a column about blacks not getting it, and it’s racist to pick on whites. It’s true that I would be wary as a white person of lecturing to blacks about race, but plenty of black leaders (including President Obama) have bluntly spoken about shortcomings in the black community.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/opinion/sunday/when-whites-just-dont-get-it-part-6.html
52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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When Whites Just Don’t Get It, Part 6 (Original Post) MrScorpio Apr 2016 OP
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #1
Not buying what? Iris Apr 2016 #2
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #3
what is it selling? Iris Apr 2016 #9
Take this implicit bias test and then come back and tell us how you scored... MrScorpio Apr 2016 #4
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #5
Me Scorpio us not running for office. Iris Apr 2016 #6
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #11
How do you know he's a Hillary supporter? BooScout Apr 2016 #14
Good question! Rhiannon12866 Apr 2016 #18
Vote for what? BooScout Apr 2016 #8
Is this satire? yardwork Apr 2016 #12
see reply 7 Iris Apr 2016 #13
Our alerts got a response. Stormfront trash removed. Thanks MIRT! yardwork Apr 2016 #15
yay! I alerted twice on this one. Iris Apr 2016 #17
MIRT is often closer than you think... Rhiannon12866 Apr 2016 #19
That's good news! Iris Apr 2016 #20
You can also contact anyone on the list Rhiannon12866 Apr 2016 #21
Thanks! Iris Apr 2016 #22
Thanks for alerting, that helps, too! Rhiannon12866 Apr 2016 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #7
That's a mighty big assumption. Iris Apr 2016 #10
I'm sorry that a racist troll was ugly in your thread. yardwork Apr 2016 #16
Good topic. Might be best to self-delete and restart this thread fresh. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #24
Frankly, I don't see what good a refresh would do. Our troll friend is gone. MrScorpio Apr 2016 #25
Carry on. Just seemed to me thread was cluttered with 98% troll posts and responses. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #26
One of the biggest problems is a need for empathy. Education helps empathy, but integration is best Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #27
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #28
Yes, yes, yes... OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #29
LOL ... Re: "those with missions of empathy and diversity ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #34
Oy... OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #38
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #40
Thank you... OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #41
I consider myself... OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #43
+1000 brer cat Apr 2016 #42
+1 uponit7771 Apr 2016 #52
"A majority of whites believe that job opportunities are equal for whites and blacks ..." Scuba Apr 2016 #30
They absolutely believe it Cosmocat Apr 2016 #33
I've had too many rounds with DUers to not believe it. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #35
I wonder what the results would be of a similar experiment applying for academic jobs oberliner Apr 2016 #31
My experience working in HR at a major University says, "No" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #36
That's unfortunate oberliner Apr 2016 #37
Though I must say ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #39
And my experience tells me certain folks wont believe you when you say that. Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #46
Don't I know it. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #48
According to Bill O'Reilly ... Martin Eden Apr 2016 #32
This is so very true. brer cat Apr 2016 #44
K&R ismnotwasm Apr 2016 #45
It may be against the law to discriminate based on race or religion and hopefully soon Jackie Wilson Said Apr 2016 #47
LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2016 #49
Kick so that our friend imari can see this Number23 Apr 2016 #50
This shit it so fuckin sad uponit7771 Apr 2016 #51

Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Response to Iris (Reply #2)

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
4. Take this implicit bias test and then come back and tell us how you scored...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 05:22 AM
Apr 2016
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

Otherwise, why should we care if you're "buying" it or not?

Response to MrScorpio (Reply #4)

Response to Iris (Reply #6)

Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

MrScorpio

(73,630 posts)
25. Frankly, I don't see what good a refresh would do. Our troll friend is gone.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 06:12 AM
Apr 2016

And besides, what's stopping a new troll from messing up a new thread?

My only regret is that I didn't get to see what all the bigoted piece of shit had to say before he was MIRTed.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,984 posts)
27. One of the biggest problems is a need for empathy. Education helps empathy, but integration is best
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 06:22 AM
Apr 2016

The more people, especially children, get to live with different people, the less importance the differences have in their minds.

Insular people who isolate their children in so many ways perpetuate the insidious nature of racism.

It is getting better over time, but it is taking much too long.

Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #27)

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
29. Yes, yes, yes...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 06:31 AM
Apr 2016

Last edited Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:41 AM - Edit history (4)

Actually, I fear there has been a significant regression over the last 8 years. In my experience there has. And in researching many organizations and businesses that I'd like to work with -- those with missions of empathy and diversity, etc., I'm amazed when I click on the "team" page to see mostly white faces. I'm noticing a distinct lack of integration, because I fear that, in general, PoC trusting white people has eroded to a great degree. While that saddens me, I get it. I totally get it.

Edit to add: Sorry I didn't include this instead of assuming it was a given, but here is my humble opinion: There is often a blindness on the part of many white people. The word diversity has been around so long that it seems to be taken for granted; not enough white people who are founders of organizations and businesses think to include PoC at the very foundational level of the venture. I certainly see businesses and organizations which are primarily populated by PoC (AA ventures, Hispanic ventures, Native American ventures) but what I don't see are more efforts at integration at the outset. And while I believe in many cases it's due to obliviousness when it comes to white people starting ventures (not reaching out to more PoC) -- or obviously bias or outright racism -- I believe it's largely lack of trust and safety on various levels when it comes to many PoC not having more diversity ventures. As I said regarding the latter, I totally get that.

But, what to do about it?

I also researched programs regarding empathy and diversity for early childhood, and all were based on the assumption that there was a supportive home environment. I believe very strongly that 1/4 to 1/3 of the US citizenry harbors a good deal of racist, bigoted, supremacist beliefs. When the parents don't want their kids playing with kids of another color, I was trying to find programs that provide these young children with tools to deal with it; tools that may help them help their parents have more empathy.

Nothing. I even wrote Jane Elliott who was kind to reply but was a wee bit disheartened and had no suggestions.

These views are often solidified by age 3, and we can't wait for kids to go off to college (not all go and not all move away to do so) to expand their horizons and worldviews. People are dying and suffering now, as you know, of course.

I'm trying to find a diverse grassroots team to join this white woman to brainstorm above the above.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
34. LOL ... Re: "those with missions of empathy and diversity ...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:09 AM
Apr 2016

I work for a major University that has both of those words in its values statement.

One day in a meeting the Director of a STEM Group established and new initiative focused on introducing STEM fields to elementary school youth. They called it, "SISTA". They were puzzled when the 3 African-Americans in the room (of 20) laughed to the point of crying.

Finally, the Director asked what we found so funny. One of the Black Senior Administrators responded by saying, "If you had a single African-American staff member, you would have selected a different name!", and then, began riffing on the name.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
38. Oy...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:18 AM
Apr 2016

Clueless.

I admit to being oblivious as to how bad it is. I assumed (yeah, my bad) that these organizations I held in such high esteem had diverse staff and membership.

I spent a solid weekend -- I mean like 25 hours -- a couple of months ago going through businesses, organizations and projects. When I saw their staff and boards were not remotely diverse (I mean, even organizations aimed at equality for women were run by white dudes!!!), I'd then check out their LinkedIn pages and groups, along with FB if they have them. I wanted to see if the membership was more diverse than leadership.

NOPE. I saw a sea of white faces. There may be other types of diversity but not racial diversity.

That explained why these same leadership people are so uncomfortable with me...feeling I'm too divisive by speaking of racism and bigotry -- systemically and in individual humans who perpetuate the friggin systems -- publicly.

It seriously stunned me when I learned I make so many people uncomfortable -- people who, to me, should be leading in these matters. It also proved to me that, without a doubt, if diversity isn't built into the core team and the foundation of any project or venture, it's not going to happen organically down the road as so many of them have assumed would happen.

If I were a PoC, I'd click away from anything that looked interesting or helpful if I didn't see people who likely reflect my experience more closely.

I click the "about" pages of every website and I, a white woman, click away when I don't see diversity now.

But that brings me back to the difficulty in creating truly diverse teams of people to lead a project before it ever gets off the ground.



 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
40. LOL ...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:28 AM
Apr 2016
If I were a PoC, I'd click away from anything that looked interesting or helpful if I didn't see people who likely reflect my experience more closely.


And starve to death, naked, in the street ... as there is no institution or industry that reflects the numbers in the population!

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
43. I consider myself...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:36 AM
Apr 2016

fairly self-aware, but I find I'm clueless on a regular basis too.

(I didn't want to edit my other short reply, so I'm creating this new one.)

But truly, you have no idea how much that bonk on the head helped me shift my perspective a bit and offer an "aha" moment.

Very grateful for you today, Kind Sir!!!



brer cat

(24,544 posts)
42. +1000
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:34 AM
Apr 2016

It happened over my lifetime. I attended all segregated schools until college, and then there were only few minorities. I was an adult before I knew a black person other than housekeepers. My granddaughters have always been in very diverse schools, and their closest friends are all black or Hispanic. They are 14 and 15, and occasionally ask us questions about racism because it is something they simply do not understand.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
30. "A majority of whites believe that job opportunities are equal for whites and blacks ..."
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:13 AM
Apr 2016

... I have trouble believeing that's true as opposed to something they just say to pollsters. Or maybe they do "believe" that in the same way they "believe" Republican policies will make them millionaires some day.







Thanks for the thread Mr. Scorpio. Sorry about the troll who pooped on it.

Cosmocat

(14,560 posts)
33. They absolutely believe it
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:52 AM
Apr 2016

I have had too many go rounds with republican/conservatives.

Here is the thing about the republican party.

All human beings have biases of some kind.

Just part of being human.

But, what the republican party does is suck in people who have some tendency toward really wanting to believe their biases.

They then get caught into the "bubble" where you have:

1) tens of thousands of people who make money through radio, tv, books, the internet, forums, activist groups, etc who relentlessly foment these biases FOR PROFIT. They make a LOT of money telling people what they want to hear, over and over and over, with an endless stream of rationals to justify it.

2) Actual elected officials and a party that have refined an endless ways of advocating for subtly, and not so subtly, having their biases intermixed with government.

3) Both 1 & 2 actively portraying those who speak out against these biases as in fact being the boogyman.

Its like a drug addiction, seriously.

Only worse in that the whole thing is couched in a way to make them feel like both victims AND great patriots.

It's sadly, a losing battle.

Too much to work against.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
31. I wonder what the results would be of a similar experiment applying for academic jobs
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:31 AM
Apr 2016

Rather than jobs as servers and salespeople (which seemed to be the focus of this study).

Would the results be any different if the experiment focussed on applications for jobs in education or other fields that have a more explicit commitment to diversity in hiring?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
39. Though I must say ...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 10:23 AM
Apr 2016

some Colleges within the University do better than others, in terms of hiring.

Ironically, we recently settled (at the institution level) a case of race and gender discrimination against a faculty member/Department Chair ... in the School of Social and Behavioral Science ... While having a STEM Department Chair, who scrapped a recruitment and started over BECAUSE the applicant pool lacked diversity.

Jackie Wilson Said

(4,176 posts)
46. And my experience tells me certain folks wont believe you when you say that.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 12:20 PM
Apr 2016

But they will pretend to.

I am not saying who, but we know it be true.


Trust me, if there is a category where it can be shown ANY preference is given to non whites, you will know about it and never hear the end of it.

Jackie Wilson Said

(4,176 posts)
47. It may be against the law to discriminate based on race or religion and hopefully soon
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 12:26 PM
Apr 2016

sexual identity/orientation, but it is done ALL the time, ALL the time!

Now it is equally likely that some minority business owners practice the same discrimination but not for racist reasons, instead for self survival, in that communities need to hire within to some extent so the community can prosper.


There is simply no way, most of the time, to prove why you chose one person over another when the qualifications and backgrounds are similar.


 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
49. LOL ...
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 12:41 PM
Apr 2016
There is simply no way, most of the time, to prove why you chose one person over another when the qualifications and backgrounds are similar.


In discussions of Affirmative Action, it all comes out. Affirmative Action is designed to be (but not always practiced as) a "tie-breaker" between "minority" and majority candidates, i.e., when 2 or more candidates are similarly qualified, the under-represented class member gets the job.

But those arguing against Affirmative Action do not hear themselves arguing: when 2 or more candidates are similarly qualified, the majority class member gets the job.
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