Does anyone else get as tired of Hillary Clinton's "black church" photo ops as I do?

[Chitown Kev]

I mean, I get it in that black church folks do vote...

But so do some of us non-churched heathen black folks like myself.

I mean, I have my own issues with the church, and that probably colors my view of this a bit..

But damn, sometimes I think that Hillary is ready speak in tongues and do the Holy Dance at any given moment.

NOTE: Some of the people that have already recced this post (5:52pm)...I see you and I don't want to play your game. That's why I posted this specific question in the AA Group.

UPDATE: Just wanted to say thank you to the AAGroup for allowing me to "let my hair down" a bit on this topic (the joke there being, of course, that I have no hair!).

I do appreciate BOTH the feedback and the criticisms.

[lovemydog]

1. I've been watching Season 4 of House of Cards

and there's some great examples of it there, too.

These politicians sure seem to get all interested in attending churches around election times.

[giftedgirl77]

8. Holy crap I'm only on season 2 but it's scary how accurate it is.

[lovemydog]

27. Yeah, writers for the show have worked in politics.

No spoilers here, but what strikes me is how little they talk about helping their constituents. From the limited interactions I've had with political staffers, I'd say it's accurate.

[jaysunb]

2. I hear you, but the Republicans do basically the same with the

Evangelicals. Same pander, different pew.

[GreatGazoo]

3. She is running a bandwagon campaign and struggling to retain support

especially with younger people.

[Tarheel_Dem]

33. "Struggling"?

[FrenchieCat]

55. You're gonna get an opportunists popping in....

this was it!

[Tarheel_Dem]

78. Yeah, but when they "pop in", they need to come correct. "Struggling"? WTF?

[bravenak]

4. Cracks me up

[Chitown Kev]

5. I mean, I actually preferred Bernie's answer to the religious question last night

What, did Hillary think that she'd won an Academy Award for praying for people?

[bravenak]

6. I told my husband that she prays for all of us everday, individually

Pray pray pray!! Shoulda been the Pope!

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

10. I'm stepping into an area I shouldn't...

But BAM...there's the Bravenak I've always admired. A little snarkiness with a big dash of panache. Gurl

[bravenak]

13. Uh oh

Well, I have my little jokes about both candidates. And boy is this my favorite Hillary topic. She be testifyin!

[Chitown Kev]

14. Yeah, I know that this is a super-sensitive subject...but damn

if one were to watch Hillary's clips of black folks, you'd think that non-churched black folks don't even exist. Completely invisible.

Even Barack Obama knew better than that.

[bravenak]

15. I know. I better shut up now before I get going

If I thought it was fake I might say more but that woman is very into it

[gwheezie]

85. I try to avoid godly folks but

My 1st experience with rural black church folks reminded me of a very gentle kidnapping.
I went with a friend about 40 years ago, they told me to bring food, so being a white girl I brought some oreos (I know) and left them in the package!
So it started in the morning, it was kinda fun for awhile, the band was kicking and I thought, wow if I could get a vodka martini this would be a hella good way to spend Sunday. Since it was early morning, it was still bearable but by afternoon and the heat hit, I was delirious and thought damn, I'm going to fall out and folks are gonna think I finally got the spirit. Then we took a nap and ate, and did more praying and ate.
I had bought my daughter who was about 3 and at 1st I thought it was kinda nice they had the kids outside playing but by about 5pm I thought about I should get my kid and leave but it occured to me they might be holding her hostage. I found her running around in the cemetery gnawing on a porkchop and she said she didn't want to leave. The spirit had got to her. I spent a few hours trying to get her to come home with me but by about 9pm I said fuck it, when she's grown she can come find her birth mother.
I was ready to go home but the band started up, I had passed out and took a nap so I was ready to go another few hours. Plus i was finally starting to learn the words to the songs.I think I left about 2am with my daughter.
In my lifetime, the state where I live shut down the public schools to avoid integration Wealthy white folks started the private schools. The reservation always had the Indian school and poor blacks and whites did not have access to public education. The black churches taught their children but many of the kids never went back to school when public education was won in the case Oliver Hill won against Prince Edward county. I got to meet Oliver Hill a few times before he died. A lovely man. The schools here are still segregated but not by segregation law, but by institutional racism. And Christian churches out here are about the most segregated institutions you'll find.

[bravenak]

95. That is so funny.

I used to feel like a hostage myself, especially during revival times. I will never go to a revival meeting ever again, now that I know what one is. Last so long I wondered if I was ever going to get to go home.

[rbrnmw]

116. I use to love it as a little girl

The dinners were awesome, they went all out on Sunday. Of course I hated sitting through the sermons and testimony. I loved running on the grounds playing with the other kids and eating of course. But them preachers scare the hell outta of you when your a little kid. Catholics are out in 40 minutes. If I ever go to church it'll be a Catholic one, not much preaching lots of kneeling and standing though. You get a workout and churchified all in 40 minutes, can't beat that.

[6chars]

103. It's cool that you can joke about both candidates

need a little more of that around here, even as we talk about serious issues.

[bravenak]

105. We damn sure do need more laughing

If we could laugh ay ourselves, even better.

[Warpy]

40. bravenak, please don't ever mellow.

I will be so disappointed if you do.

Just once before I kick the bucket, I'd like to see a candidate tell someone "none of your business" to an inappropriate question. S/he will lose, but I'd still like to see it.

[bravenak]

42. I would love that to DEATH

Get my vote!

[Ken Burch]

56. Probably prays for him, too.

(if she gets in, she'll outsource the Vatican to Mumbai).

[bravenak]

62. Of course she does.

And no way would she outsource the vatican. She is like, really seriously devout. Never happen. Honestly she probably would be the best pope ever. Clean out the ranks, imo.

[Ken Burch]

65. OK. Not sure they'd take a Methodist, though. n/t.

[awoke_in_2003]

92. Gotta watch those Methodists

https://m.

[FrenchieCat]

18. I find that Bernie's deception on what he really believes to be more interesting....

He's been artful at confusing most as to what he believes, when the truth according to those who know him best
states that he's not much of a believer, if he is one at all.....

Is there an academy award for not really wanting to reveal what one believes?
That might be as good of a question.

"I put the question to Professor Richard Sugarman, who serves as Bernie Sanders' unofficial spiritual adviser. The two met in 1976 on a train from New York to Vermont. Sugarman was at the start of his professorship at the university; Sanders was an itinerant candidate with Vermont's radical Liberty Union Party. The two became friends and lived together. Sugarman convinced Sanders to run for Burlington mayor and told me he served as "Minister of Reality" in the government. If Sanders is in Vermont during Passover, he attends seder at Sugarman's table.

Does Bernie Sanders believe in God?

"I would call him an uncertain agnostic," Sugarman told me. He still teaches religion and philosophy. "He's not even sure he's an agnostic."

Translation: Sanders is doubly uncertain that God exists.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2016-02-26/should-questions-about-sanders-religion-and-judaism-impact-his-2016-run

[Chitown Kev]

20. Actually, I find that to be a very attractive thing about Sanders

Sanders is clearly a humanist of some sort.

If he actually is an agnostic, I don't care.

[FrenchieCat]

22. I understand, and of course you don't have to care....

Hillary does attempt to link and reach out to Black churches,
but my point is that, at the very least, she is a believer.

Meanwhile Sanders is apparently doing much of the same, while being a non-believer,

I have seen pics of him praying...so that's interesting.

It may be because I am a believer,
that I find more hypocrisy in Sanders' actions,
Just like last night, he wasn't being straightforward,
as he artfully alluded to his Jewish faith which he doesn't even practice,
has a way to get around that Faith question.

So it would be great if whatever he believed in, he wouldn't be trying to
confuse....because that's not attractive, its deceitful.

It's certainly fine if you don't have a problem with any of it....
but your op seems to point to only one person...
due to a picture?

[Chitown Kev]

24. Hillary caters to black church folks

and not ALL black folks.

ALL politicians have to cater to the black church for votes...and I have a problem with that, to an extent...see, I can't discuss this topic the way I would like...

[Quayblue]

31. I get what you're saying.

I'm an in-betweener. I don't think I quite qualify as agnostic but I don't put much thought into it. I appreciate the black church population because I grew up in it, but eventually separated because I think I was raised well. I really don't need the Bible to catalyze my tendency to empathize, treat others how I want to be treated, keep my hands out of other folks' pockets, and all the other stuff. I still go to church periodically because I like the life lessons. Otherwise, I pray and meditate how I see fit.

I'm in a thought process where I think...hmmm. If black folks arent church-going, we are swept aside. And I am probably reaching, but I think if we aren't church folk, then we are categorized as "ghetto" or radical. And I'm not really either.

I really think people and politicians are disconnected because though my relatively quiet type life is not shown in media, it surely exists.

Hillary, if she is nominated, is bout to learn some stuff. In a way, I think she may be ready....but we most certainly will see.

[FrenchieCat]

32. That's your take...

I don't agree....

What are black church folks compared to all Black folks? How do you conclude this about Hillary Clinton?

[Chitown Kev]

37. Actually, this has less to do with Hillary Clinton

than with the black church...but it looks very obvious with Hillary Clinton.

Remember, there is this division within the black community as well...hell, this division is within my own family (which my cousin, who hasn't posted here for a bit but he may be lurking, can attest to).

[FrenchieCat]

44. But the title of your OP is about Hillary Clinton, and is somewhat negative....

and it may look more obvious to you when she goes to Black churches....
although it is clear that they all do it...
though true, she has been going to Black churches for much, much longer,
which I'm not sure this is a bad thing, as opposed to a newbie who starts going
to Black churches 3 days before a vote in a state where the Black vote is important.

As for division in the Black community,
it is well known that Younger Black folks are generally less religious
than the older ones....and it has always been pretty much that way....
that is true, as I can attest that my daughters are both
non believers as of now. They are also both involved in the activist movement,
one more than the other, and yet one voted for Clinton in MASS,
and the other will be doing the same in Cali when it's time.

It happens that Hillary Clinton is gaining the support of a majority of AAs,
and certainly it is a particular age group...But I don't think the division has to do with religious habits,
as much as it has to do with those who have lived longer and have a different mindset than their younger
counterparts.

I know that youth tend to be more liberal and more idealistic as to what can be achieved in this country,
compared to those who have seen more of the past, and are more realistic in their voting choices, and as well
more moderate. The older folks have more to lose, IMO. They may own a home, a business, and a 401K....
which would make them weary of someone popping in to say let's have a revolution and turn everything upside down.

Many of the younger folks have Mom and Dad paying for quite a bit of their expenses, and so their viewpoint is shaded
by the fact that they are only responsible for themselves.....

My hubby said to me that young folks have to have their own movement....cause that's how it normally works.

[Chitown Kev]

50. Oh, I think that Sanders needs to shaded for that, no doubt

For me, it's not really about Clinton and Sanders though; I could have easily talked about President Obama as well (hell, I got ticked off when Al Gore did it in 2000...although I forgot about Gore's divinity degree for those moments).

Hell, I could talk about the over-the-top churchifiedness of Cornel West AND Michael Eric Dyson AND Roland Martin just to name three examples.

And yes, I know that Hillary has been doing black churches since she was in high school...

[FrenchieCat]

52. Glad you are balancing this out.....with this statement,

but unfortunately your OP title was not as balanced.

Does anyone else get as tired of Hillary Clinton's "black church" photo ops as I do?

Which blesses us with this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=44973

Someone not so much interested in reading the entire thread,
but simply reacting to the title of your OP.

I do support Clinton, so you can imagine why I might insist on some balance from the gate
if there is any to be had, which in this case, there certainly was plenty of room for it.

I'm not sensitive to the subject, as I respect what beliefs anyone might choose....

[rbrnmw]

76. When she starts wearing hats

and standing up to sing during testimony I will think she's gone a bit too far. On the other hand she does attend a lot of services so much so that she could preach it.

[bravenak]

98. She sure could

[NWCorona]

108. Your post was hilarious but I do agree with you

Her church credentials can't be played with.

[giftedgirl77]

7. Yes, but I find the use of religion in politics incredibly annoying.

[Chitown Kev]

9. I do too...

I mean, can't Hillary go and find a liberal white congregation (or even a Latino one) every once in a great while? There's plenty of those too.

I mean, it's almost as if she's sending out a certain "code" too.

[FrenchieCat]

26. Do these pass your faith based code test for Hillary pics?

[Chitown Kev]

34. Black church folks sure get defensive

when I bring up a subject like this.

[Tarheel_Dem]

43. Thanks Frenchie. Hillary's not the only one. She's just better at it.

Bernie Sanders at Brookland Baptist Church



Sanders makes surprise visit to Sunday church supper

This is going sideways rather quickly.

[Chitown Kev]

46. My issue is that politicians

MUST do this with black folks...

As a secular (and agnostic) black person who knows more than a few black people like myself, it irritates me to no end, although I GET it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

80. I have no problem with your irritation. The problem is you came after Hillary, and no one else.

You could've said "politicians", but you expressly named her. Are you insinuating that she only holds events in black churches, and nowhere else in the black community?

[Chitown Kev]

81. I'm insinuating that the "black church"

is her "base" in the black community (as opposed to the "entire community&quot

[Tarheel_Dem]

82. I think I'll go ahead and end this before I say something I'll regret. Stay strong Kev!

[FrenchieCat]

63. At least he's trying.....

although 3 days before a vote is quite more the pandering than someone whose
been attending Black churches forever, IMO.

I am annoyed with Sanders due to it....?
Not really...

Although I am annoyed with his statement that if you're Black, you must come from the ghetto....

now, I find that quite a bit more Trifflin'!

Bernie Sanders has since stepped in deeper, by stating, "What I meant to say is when you talk about ghettos, traditionally what you're talking about is African-American communities."

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272072-sanders-responds-to-questions-on-ghetto-comment

[Chitown Kev]

67. Sanders is doing himself no favors with this ignorant tonedeaf shit

[FrenchieCat]

71. My FB is exploding based on his stereotyped statement.....

I grew up the large part of my teen years in an African American Community....
after moving to this country....

But didn't realize I was actually living in the Ghetto without my knowledge!

Bernie Sanders Reinforcing Stereotypes like it ain't nobody's business...

Let's see, if I have this correct,
Sanders' view of the African Community =
Welfare
Crime
Incarceration
Ghetto
Poor

Thank you Bernie Sanders....
We couldn't have done it without you!

[NWCorona]

109. If you don't mind me asking

What country are you from? France?

[JustAnotherGen]

115. I'll drop this here

I didn't grow up in the ghetto.

And my income has more than doubled since January 2009.

I can't relate to Sanders.

And . . .the reality is he can't relate to me.

I must be a foreign object to him.

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. I was like...he said what? My dead mother would love to know that her child has been reduced to....

"ghetto" status, even though I have N-E-V-E-R, in my entire life, lived anywhere near a "ghetto"!!!!!! That's the problem with a broadbrush, it paints everyone into the same corner.

[FrenchieCat]

83. Sanders is living in the 60s

Along with his ideas!

Reinforcing one stereotype after the other about black people, on a national stage...and somehow were supposed to be tired that a white woman shows up at a black church! Yeah OK!

Sanders Bringing up That Clinton took away our welfare, the crime bill that he voted for, incarceration, Ghettos, poor Blacks being all that we are and what our communities represent , while his supporters can call black people stupid, uneducated , not knowing what's good for 'em, but we!re good with that????

Well I'm not going with that, cause we ain't got it like that!

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. I was raised Pentecostal, and haven't attended in decades, but I still have issues with attacks on..

black churches. I know what "a good church" means to a community. When I look at the late Rev. Pinckney's church in Charleston, it was filled with doctors, lawyers, educators, and political figures who worked hard to improve the plight of the community. So no, I'm not down with attacking black churches, and if you'll notice, the people rec'cing this thread, with the exception of about 3 people, don't post in this group.

We're free to discuss whatever issues we want, but you'll never see me attacking Pres. Obama, and you won't see me attacking black churches. I won't give the enemies of either, the satisfaction. I admire Kev, but I think the implication of this o.p. is meant to diminish black churches, and by extension, it's members.

[FrenchieCat]

86. yep....

[Chitown Kev]

87. I get sensitive on this subject in MANY different ways

and I know the difference between a good a church and a bad church, too.

I know that there are churches that do good for a community; for example, at least one church that I can think of actually does hold gay "ball" contests.

The Black Church (which is not a monolithic institution) has hurt a lot of people too. I'm not just saying that because I am a gay man, although that's a part of it.

with the exception of about 3 people, don't post in this group.

I noticed that too.

Doesn't mean that I, as a black man who has been incredibly alienated by the church and who finds the church incredibly alienating, cannot broach this conversation. Because it doesn't make me any less black, that's for damn sure.

[FrenchieCat]

88. Your feelings are understandable....

In many Black churches, these attitudes are evolving....and that's a good thing, even if I imagine it's not been soon enough, and that would be fair to say.

So due to you stating your personal experience, and you providing some context, I get that part of what you are saying...

With that being said, I still think your op was lopsided against one political candidate, but than that's nothing new here at DU.. so no problem. I have done it myself, so there's also that...

[Tarheel_Dem]

94. Much love to you Kev. And I mean that.

[MADem]

100. That was pretty awful. But Sanders wasn't the worst one at that shindig. Ben Jealous took the damn

cake!

He was preaching to the people in the line for hot food! They were looking at him like "Time and place, Ben...time AND place!"

There's video out there of that mess...it is a cringeworthy watch.

[Tarheel_Dem]

104. Cringeworthy indeed. The faces were like Bernie Who? Could you imagine if that were Obama or....

Hillary showing up without warning. They would have been mobbed.

[FrenchieCat]

48. I have shown pics of Hillary in various types of religious events,

so since you keep making the "code" thing an issue for you....why don't you locate Bernie Sanders at a Latino or White congregation....or even a Jewish one, since he is being spotted at Black churches as of late all throughout the OP.

Just sayin'......

[Cha]

89. Mahalo Frenchie.. Just sayin'.. is excellent.

[JI7]

19. that's how i feel

[Coolest Ranger]

11. Honestly

it doesn't bother me. I go to church and I know how important our vote is

[Chitown Kev]

12. Totally get it

Like the overwhelming majority of black folks, I was raised in the church and I appreciate that I was.

However...

Nothing brings out the cynic in me faster than "the black church"...much f this would be a non-DU conversation, though.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Hillary believes in God, so I don't see the problem with it....

MLK was a preacher, and church is where much of the Black civil right movement was organized, as you know.

I attend church, which is the same church that Barbara Lee attends. It is a church that is politically active,
and are focused much more on the poors in the Black community,
and not one of those mega church that is all about money and not much else!

But the double standard should not be overlooked,
because one could say to be tired of pics of Bernie Sanders In churches,
even more so, as he claims to be non religious and doesn't believe in organized religion,
and actually isn't sure about this GOD some folks speak of.

At least Hillary has never said that she's non religious....
so the title of your OP is somewhat a misrepresentation of what is actually occurring.....
Since Bernie Sanders is doing much of the same thing. Just sayin'!

Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton Attend Same Black Church Service to Woo African-American Voters
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-black-church-service-african-american-voters-nevada-primary-157724/#lVckuFCfqx4Vf2Xw.99

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-black-church-service-african-american-voters-nevada-primary-157724/





?itok=hdeVK-ga

[Chitown Kev]

17. Actually, one thing that I appreciate about Bernie

is that at least he has made some attempts to reach out to non-secular black folk (i.e. BLM)

I don't mind it every once in awhile, of course, but IMO, Hillary overdoes it.

I have some of the saved and sanctified in my family. And I know how a LOT of black church folks can be (which is really like many other church folks regardless of race).

I don't like the fact that black church folks seem to think that they have some sort of monopoly over the civil rights movement and black politics in general, though.

[FrenchieCat]

21. I think that if one is non-religious,

than shows up in Black churches, the pandering stench on that move is way stronger, but that's only my personal judgment on that.

I don't think that Black church folks seem to think that they have some sort of monopoly over civil rights....

I'm not sure how you are making these conclusions that you then say you do not like?
What is there something that tells you this?

But if we stick to the actual facts, there is some truth that much of the Civil Rights movement was organized in churches
hell, even MalcomX was a church goer.

Church has been involved in the pursuit of Black freedom going all the way back to Slavery days.....
Even the White groups who helps free slaves come to freedom were mainly Quakers initially.

[Chitown Kev]

23. and even black secular people like DuBois and Randolph

knew that they had to organize in churches, that's not exactly my point.

The bad thing is that the way things are, ANY politician that wants black votes has to show up in church; I think all of it is pandering and the black church drinks that shit up because they like to be pandered to.

[kwassa]

25. Is it pandering, or going to where the action is?

The black church has been the organizational center of black life for hundreds of years now. Political as well as religious.

It seems that secular alternatives are just beginning to develop, among younger blacks, but they are not there yet in the same force.

[FrenchieCat]

28. Pandering is relative...

Obama went to Black churches too..loads and load of them...

and as I mentiond to OP....so has Sanders, who in particular is a not so straightforward about it, a non believer

So Why Hillary is being singled out as being more into "pandering" might be a relevant question....?

[Chitown Kev]

30. Well... I didn't like some of the churches that my former Senator went to, either

I have no problem with Trinity, for example, but then again there is the loathsome James Meeks' church as well...

But Obama knew how to reach the non-secular black folk, too.

[FrenchieCat]

36. I still don't get the Hillary is the panderer.....

and everyone else is ok, regardless of what they do..... based on the statements you are making.

It's one thing to just not want vote for Hillary, for whatever reason you want...

It's another to single her out, when we both know that they all do it,
and some do it who don't even believe in God at all!

Are you simply implying that because she is getting the older Black vote in the majority this election cycle,
that it makes her more guilty than everyone else, including those who simply haven't been as successful,
but not for a lack of trying?

[Cha]

91. "How Hillary Clinton won the battle for the black vote in South Carolina"

snip//

She’s been working in and with South Carolinians since the ’70s, but every decade since then, she’s been in and out of the state working with people,” Middleton said. “She has deep roots here, and it has blossomed over the years.”

But all that support seemingly vanished in 2008, when Clinton faced off against Obama, the first African-American major-party presidential primary frontrunner. Rev. Joseph Darby, vice president of the Charleston branch of the NAACP, attributed Clinton’s loss that year to the simple fact that voters had — and wanted to take — the chance to elect the first black president.

“Before that possibility came, Hillary was actually doing quite well,” Darby explained. “She had nailed down a good number of endorsements.”

Nevertheless, even after being beaten by Obama in South Carolina, Clinton never retreated from South Carolina, Darby said.

“I don’t think Hillary’s ever been off the ground except for the little while when there was a tiff after the ’08 primary. She has stayed in touch with the community. She started laying groundwork for this run, oh, probably three or four years ago. She’s had people circulating. … She’s talked to the right folks,” Darby said, adding, “I don’t think South Carolina ever entirely left the Clintons. It might have parked them in the corner for one election, but they’ve maintained good relationships.”

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/how-hillary-clinton-won-the-battle-for-the-black-205650975.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110759606

FYI & Just sayin' @ large.. I know you've seen this, Frenchie~Thank you.

[MADem]

106. She's being singled out because that's just the way it is with her.

I don't know why people are harder on her, but they are. No question, and this thread proves it.

And make no mistake, this whole line of commentary more harshly criticizes, and damn near scolds, Clinton for doing what she has done for decades--and there's proof of that. Sanders does not have a history of this, and has been bouncing round to black churches--just lately (hypocritical, much?) --and despite pictorial evidence of this new conversion, he gets a pass. No "pandering" accusations, Hmm.

But Clinton, she is not a stranger--to these places, or these people. Hell, she's been going to those churches for years. She is KNOWN in those communities. She has connections in those congregations and amongst the church leadership.

I think the reason for the harsher scrutiny has to be explained to us by the scrutinizers...they need to ask themselves why they scold Clinton and don't reserve any scorn at all for Sanders.

It's a damn good question, but only those with the double standard can give us an answer.

I am not going to hold my breath.

[Chitown Kev]

111. A couple of reasons

1) The reason that I am not so hard on Sanders on this particular note is because you pretty much HAVE to pander to the black churches, at this point. The one exception that I took to that is when Sanders met with some black ministers in Baltimore, which is a hub of black activists right now.

2) Frankly, I think that the role of the black church in black political life is waaaaaaaay too powerful and I have felt that way for a long time.

Hillary might be more comfortable with the church crowd because she's one of them, actually, and that's fine.

But there is a lot more to the black community and black politics then just black churches.

That's not all Hillary's fault, actually...I do think that Hillary is more comfortable with faith communities, though...and she is public enough with it that it bothers me.

[MADem]

112. Well, Kev, it does seem kind of unfair to treat one differently than the other, especially when it's

down to community outreach. They're both doing it. It's more natural for her because it's her thing.

People criticize her for not holding big rallies--instead of one massive event, she'll do three or four small events where she doesn't spend a lot of time giving a speech, but instead lets people ask her questions that she answers. It's actually more work, but it's a two-way experience and it works for her. People who go to these things experience a genuine connection.


As for the churches, maybe the younger generation will change things up. Or maybe they'll do like a lot of people do--go away for a while, then come home to what they know. There is a strong sense of community in the churches, and the sense that there's a group that has your back. The downside is that membership ain't cheap--it's like a damn country club, all that tithing. But hey, if people like it, let 'em.

I'm comfortable in faith communities too (though maybe in a different way) --I'm comfortable enough to be able to fit in at church, mosques, even temples. It helps to be a quick study and understand a bit of the theological traditions. I don't share the same degree of investment, but being able to go through those motions can be useful in forging bonds. I understand why politicians do it, and it doesn't bother me so long as they don't start in on the "Thou shalt not..." stuff.

I don't think it's the only outreach, either--it's just really good for media availabilities. Everyone is sitting in one place so the photographers can get a nice shot, there's usually music and enthusiasm--it's a good photo op/campaign story.

[Chitown Kev]

114. There's that....and...

The downside is that membership ain't cheap--it's like a damn country club, all that tithing. But hey, if people like it, let 'em.

People in churches tend to look down on those who aren't religious.

Especially when they're gay AND agnostic like myself...

...so finding community within the context of black community (esp. given religious traditions) is very difficult for me. Because I also tend not to be a conformist to anything.

I'm not uncomfortable in churches...once that gets into you, it never leaves you...and I am pretty good with faith traditions (I did graduate from a Jesuit university, after all)...I don't like it mixed with politics, though...I believe that one's relationship with God (or whatever else you call Him/Her/It) is just that: personal...if you choose to share it with others by way of going to services...fine, I don't want people like this influences politics and policy, really.

[MADem]

117. I can appreciate that perspective. It is a tough thing when there's a popular club, and they

don't want you as a member. And I am no fan of religion in politics or public governmental life, frankly. I don't like Invocations and Benedictions at military ceremonies, for example--I think they're just WRONG. But I also realize that some people like them, appreciate them, and expect them.

I've spent much of my life sticking out like a sore thumb. What can ya do? You can play the "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" game, or you can "Go Your Own Way!" (I really didn't intend to use song titles when I started typing that sentence--but I couldn't resist.) Or you can float between the two. I think the most important thing is to find your own community, your own CHEERS (where everybody knows your name--to carry on the song theme) and carve your own path, establish your own traditions, find the places where you feel at home and welcomed.

I had a very smart granmama who used to say "Go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated." I think it's good advice. This is also good advice: someone can only look down on you if you put yourself below them.

Don't worry about what "they" do. They're not gonna stop doing it, anyway! At least not until they cease to get something out of it.

Find your own joy. The best revenge is living well, and being happy.

[Chitown Kev]

29. It's both, of course...

which is why to call out Sanders for his "hypocrisy" is...well...quite reductive, to say the least.

There actually have been secular alternatives throughout black history (i.e. The Black Panthers) but they never last very long...religion is something that's acceptable to most Americans, so there's a lot of "respectability politics" going on there too.

I remember when Bernie Sanders went to Baltimore and met with some black ministers there about various things going on in Baltimore. There are also a lot of black activists in Baltimore that Sanders could have met with but aren't as "respectable" as those ministers...and some of those activists have actually criticized the black churches there for not doing enough with the funds for programs that they were receiving.

And of course, associations of the black church with what we now call "grift" is nothing new either.

[kwassa]

38. For most of American history, there has been no alternative.

Blacks were only allowed to congregate in church. Therefore .... this was, and often still is, the place.

At the same time, Obama rightly recognized the political mess that black churches in DC can represent and completely avoided joining, and rarely attended. He was smart about it.

[Chitown Kev]

41. I get that...

At the same time, Obama rightly recognized the political mess that black churches in DC can represent and completely avoided joining, and rarely attended. He was smart about it.

Oh, I get that too.

Same thing in Chicago, actually, from the little that I hear (of course, I know a lot of people that go to church and they ALWAYS have good church tea to spill, lol)

[FrenchieCat]

51. Kwassa, funny you should said this.....

As I am writing a piece on exactly that! The history of Black churches and the part they have played in Black history,
and will say that Church has been central to everything for good reasons.....going back way far!

I don't have a problem with the younger generations getting away from it...
some will be back, and some won't....
Religion should be what one chooses freely, otherwise, what's the point?

I stay away from mega churches though, as they are of no help to Black community,
unless buying an airplane for the pastor equates to that!

[Chitown Kev]

54. Yeah, but churches have been criticized too

I have to look into my Langston Hughes collection of Simple stories to find the one about "pork-chop preachers" A. Philip Randolph was also critical as well as some phases of The Black Power movement....I am aware of the good that black churches do but I am also aware that black churches have become swept up in the prosperity gospel craze in the same sense that white evangelical churches have...so I would say that since the civil rights movement, The Black Church has changed somewhat and not in a good way (depending on the church, of course)

As far as Creflo is concerned though...I mean, at least Reverend Ike was entertaining, lol

[FrenchieCat]

72. Again, I don't frequent prosperity churches, which I call mega churches...

But of course, there has always been Pimping Preachers out there....= Rev Ike!
for sure.

the church that I attend was the church that lent money to the Black Panther Party
back in the 1960s when no one else would. Our pastor(who retired recently) was
called the Pastor to the Black Panthers.
https://friendsofjustice.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/pastor-to-black-panthers-ministers-to-white-baptist-university-in-north-carolina/

Huey Newton's funeral took place at our church, and our pastor did the eulogy...
https://archive.org/details/pra-AZ0896B

[kwassa]

73. My previous church in LA ...

Eldridge Cleaver attended in his later years, looking like someone's kindly grandfather, and Rosa Parks visited. There were a sizable number of black celebs attending, too.

[NWCorona]

110. Agreed!

If you can share that piece when finished I'd love to read it.

[JustAnotherGen]

35. You know I'm a UU

I'd like to see any candidate try to come in and "pray" with us. Actually - I'd like to see each of them (including Republicans) try and teach a bunch of 5-7 year old UU kids about the Christmas story/myth.

Extra points for Ted Cruz if he doesn't pass out when the 5 year old asks if both of Jesus's parents were Jewish and then her friend tells him, "Well weeee believe in The League of Women voters".

Good times. Good times.

Those kids have whooped my ass - I'd like to see them whoop Trumps.

Well how do you know America was great?
Explain great.
Well hoooow great? Like a little or a lot.
Keep up!

A bunch of little kids taught to question everything ought to be just about the end of America.

[Chitown Kev]

39. I go to a UU church from time to time...its' been a couple of years

a VERY politically active church, actually.

[JustAnotherGen]

45. We are sssshhhh

Don't tell anyone we believe in climate change and marriage equality - and potluck suppers.

[Chitown Kev]

47. Last time I went (it's only a few blocks from home)

the pastor (maybe not the correct word) did a sermon on Charles Darwin...a positive one, too.

[JustAnotherGen]

49. Yeah it's a pastor

One imagine any Candidate at THAT photo op!

[Digital Puppy]

99. See...now you got me wanting to come visit!!

[Chitown Kev]

64. Sarcasm about church

in this protected group is not advised...please...

[Ken Burch]

66. Go to the link...it's not about church in any real sense.

But I won't post anymore in this thread. Didn't realize which group this was.

[Chitown Kev]

68. Thank you.

[kwassa]

70. I was brought up UU ...

While there are very good things about UU ...

Most Unitarians don't realize there are other Christian denominations as liberal as they are, and far more diverse. UUs are mostly a secular humanist group, which is fine, but doesn' t fit my definition of church; that is just my beef.

My Episcopal church has people from around the world, of all colors, gay clergy, many interracial couples. So do some other churches.

[JustAnotherGen]

90. That I don't disagree with

That's just where I ended up the Sunday after Easter Sunday in 2004. I had a flat line and my perception of the next world shifted dramatically.

[Ken Burch]

53. Might be part of the reason Ta-Nehisi Coates doesn't support her. n/t.

[Chitown Kev]

57. Well...some speculate that Coates' atheism is also the reason

that Cornel West tried to come for Coates, though...

black church politics ain't beanbag...

[Ken Burch]

58. I've heard tell. n/t.

[FrenchieCat]

59. Seriously?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=44921

[Ken Burch]

61. He has actually expressed his alienation from the whole "black church" sensibility

in his writings. He's expressed misgivings about Bernie as well, to a lesser degree.

[FrenchieCat]

69. Who is "He"?

[Ken Burch]

75. Check your pm's. n/t.

[Number23]

74. "Hillary is ready speak in tongues and do the Holy Dance"

I can't think of anything I'd rather see LESS than Hillary with the holy ghost.

[Chitown Kev]

77. sheeeit, I'd pay to see that, actually, lol

[Scootaloo]

101. I'm gonna have to second that.

That's a sort of "shut up and take my money!" thing, isn't it?

[Spacedog1973]

93. As a white christian woiman

I imagine that her religion has helped her forge bridges between communities. A link that other politicians don't have and therefore struggle with. Imagine a white suburban woman wanting to reach out to black communities, but lacks religion. She would be at a disadvantage and would probably latch on to visible community organisations which by their nature would restrict her by seeing these communities only in a certain light.

By attending black churches, she is engaging with a diverse group of people, that enables her to interact on multiple issues that resonant with the community as a whole. I think this is an advantage for her.

[Chitown Kev]

96. I'm not for one minute saying that's not the case

in fact, I'm saying that it's too much the case

I know that the right wing does it, but I would rather that no politician visit ANY churches...and I would rather something other than churches would be a "gateway" to the black community

[Spacedog1973]

97. I think its too much of an 'easy win' for her to turn aside

Given the political climate and not forgetting Obama's problems in convincing a country that he is a Christian rather than a Muslim (read terrorist), for her to avoid this would become a vulnerability in too many ways. It would be a self inflicted wound.

If she toned it down and did things in addition, then perhaps this would have greater appeal to the non religious of us and not grate so much. Although I' not sure what those things would be.

[longship]

102. Mostly I get tired of mixing politics and religion.

And Hillary is one of the worst in this respect. After all, she is part of "The Family" on C Street, a very worrisome association.

Anytime religion and politics join, it is an odious mixture. That applies to Secy Clinton.

[MADem]

107. So this is an "odious mixture," at these links?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118744893#post16


http://www.democraticunderground.com/118744893#post43

[joshcryer]

113. I think she's sincere with her faith.

Possibly the most religious person in standing, more so than even Cruz. If she won I think she'd be the most religious President since Carter. Bill and Obama are likely atheists. Regan wasn't a big churchgoer. Bush Jr was probably an atheist. Bush Sr wasn't a big church guy either.

Not slighting her for that I'm just saying, I think it's fully sincere and I think she does really pray every day.

[Chitown Kev]

118. Hillary is a church lady, yes

Now don't get me wrong, I loves my church ladies, still, to an extent, and I find it to be one of Hillary's more endearing qualities at times; she CAN remind me at times of some of the church ladies that I grew up with...

[Number23]

119. Rec'ing for the amazing conversation. This conversation could not have been had ANYWHERE ELSE on DU

It was still fabulous even with a couple of (now to be expected) jumper inners.

Love ya, Kev.

[Stellar]

120. I was pissed when some of the ministers sold out to Rauner here in Chicago...

and quite frankly, I'm still pissed about it. Money talks!

But anyway, I thought Hillary always carried an entourage of black women everywhere she goes and not just the church. You hardly ever saw her without some black women draped all over her.

But still, if she wins the primary, I will hold my nose and vote for her with a passion. We need a 'Democrat' in the White House.

[Chitown Kev]

121. Somehow, I got to Maya Harris' Twitter feed

https://twitter.com/mayaharris_

Hillary was praisin' the Lawd, today.