How Even A Terrorist Can Buy Explosive Powders Without A Background Check

[jpak]

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/24/1900821/how-even-a-terrorist-can-buy-explosive-powders-without-a-background-check/

The bombs used in the Boston Marathon explosion were “rudimentary” but powerful, according to experts, made using instructions available on the Internet, and readily available items such as pressure cookers, nails, and BBs. But the bombs also contained a blasting agent, likely black powder. And thanks to major gaps in federal legislation, this powder was also readily available to the bombers, whether it was obtained in large quantities from an ammunition dealer, or extracted from several low-level fireworks that contain the powder.

While explosives such as ready-made bombs and major quantities of high-octane powders are subject to stricter regulation and must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, federal law exempts several key types of explosives from licensing and background check requirements. Even after the post-9/11 Safe Explosives Act, an individual can buy up to 50 pounds of black powder and any amount of smokeless powder (a more expensive blasting powder that leaves less residue) without undergoing any licensing or background check. Sellers of both products are not required to maintain any record-keeping of their sales, and sellers of smokeless power need not even maintain a license. Black powder is the most common explosive used in pipe bombs because it is so inexpensive, according to a 2005 Department of Justice report. For context, experts say it only takes about three pounds of powder to make one of the pressure-cooker bombs used in the Boston Marathon incident.

Since black and smokeless powders are used as gunpowder, it is unsurprising that the National Rifle Association had a hand in blocking stricter regulation. As a new Violence Policy Center report explains, the NRA and another gun industry trade association lobbied against regulation of black and smokeless powder repeatedly to achieve the now-codified exemptions for gun powders. And the NRA has a particular interest in lobbying for powder regulation, due to “corporate partners” that specialize in the sale of powders, gun accessories or ammunition. In 1970, the gun lobby achieved an exemption for up to five pounds of black powder and all “small arms ammunition” (which includes smokeless powder). Three years later, that exemption was expanded to 50 pounds.

In 1995, former ATF agent and explosives consulting firm president Reynold Hoover warned in an academic paper: “Together, these two ‘unregulated’ bomb ingredients represent one of the greatest threats to the American public posed by bombers.” Nonetheless, when Congress revisited regulation of explosives after 9/11 and expanded the list of persons prohibited from purchasing explosives, it did not close or narrow this gap, meaning the list of people prohibited from buying smokeless powder or less than 50 pounds of black powder includes, effectively, nobody. Gunpowder is also regulated under the Gun Control Act, along with bullets and other ammunition, and that bill does include a theoretical list of individuals prohibited from purchasing ammunition. But that law does not even require sellers of ammunition to be licensed, let alone perform background checks or even age verification, so sellers have no way of determining whether the purchases are legal.

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FUNRA

yup

[Common Sense Party]

1. Should't this be in the Explosives Control forum? nt

[jpak]

3. Guns need gun powder

Guns kill

Gun powder kills.

Buy a clue

yup

[Common Sense Party]

15. There isn't enough cash in the Federal Reserve to buy a clue for you, j.

All those gang bangers, shooting each other with their stores of gun powder.

I'm pretty sure even you can tell the difference betwen a bomb and a gun?

yup yup nope derp

[gejohnston]

2. which has nothing to do with Boston or Times Square

This is the first time TP has been half way accurate in describing gun laws, but the brothers went to a fireworks stand. That makes it irrelevant other than a pitch from VPC, which is rarely correct about anything.
Besides, I'm not a fan of curtailing personal freedoms in hopes of preventing, which it won't, something that is very rare to begin with.

[jpak]

4. Well then, the National RIFLE Ass...... should not object to *strict* regulation

of gun powder.

Yup

[gejohnston]

7. actually, yes

and every person should object to erosion of any civil liberty in the name of "security" or "public safety", in the spirit of Ben Franklin.

[jpak]

11. Access to bomb making material is now a civil liberty?

Who knew?

[holdencaufield]

17. "National RIFLE Ass"

Way to stay CLASSY

[DonP]

5. You need to demand bottle rocket control NOW!

Start with a bill in the Senate. Demonize every fireworks stand in the country as "death spewers" and write a bill that takes no note of the differences between a normal bottle rocket or black cat lady finger and a professional grade mortar.

You gun control "fans" have had such great success using that approach.

[jpak]

6. The Senate is considering a black powder bill

Better stock up...

[gejohnston]

8. it was introduced while the media

was speculating about gun powder. What are the odds of it going anywhere?

[jpak]

9. Black power is the most common explosive used in pipe bombs

The pro-terrorists NRA love them some unregulated black powder.

yup

[oneshooter]

20. So what kind/type of regulations are you proposing?

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. "unregulated black powder." You mean the kind made with saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur?

Gonna regulate those things too?

A good standard black powder: 100 parts saltpeter + 18 parts coal + 16 parts sulfur. Actually, you don't even need the sulfur.

How many things will you propose regulating or outright banning before you finally come to the conclusion that you're not ever going to stop bad people from doing bad things?

Here, I'll even add a link so you can see how it's made at home.

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/homemade_bp.html

[gejohnston]

39. black powder is regulated

http://www.civilwarartillery.com/atf/
Since the bombs were made from fireworks, as was the Times Square bomb, I fail to see the rational. Since the chance of being killed by a bomb or terrorist attack is someplace between struck by lightening and eaten by a shark, I don't see the need.

[Travis_0004]

49. You realize blackpowder is very easy to make

3 ingredients, all commonly available. I could make some in a few hours.

[CreekDog]

18. greater than the odds of you supporting it

[gejohnston]

21. about the same actually

[DonP]

10. I stocked up on relaoding supplies years ago, I don't use fireworks too dangerous!

I trust my own reloads, I don't trust the fuse on an explosive device made by an underage Chinese kid in a sweat shop factory somewhere.

I probably have 20+ pounds of various reloading powders for rifles, shotgun and pistol use.

I pick up an extra pound or two when I see a good price and they even have it. Hard to find reloading supplies, big backlog for even equipment now.

[juajen]

52. I wish they would outlaw fireworks except for municipal use.

I am sick of people losing sleep and all the animals on my street going crazy every holiday for at least a week while crazy kids, adult and young, are setting off fireworks. The police come out every thirty minutes and they still go out and do it. The fine needs to be very large, and this would stop. We do have droughts sometimes, and that doesn't stop them either. I wonder how many fires begin every year from fireworks.

[gejohnston]

53. some states do

When I was a kid, half of Utah and Idaho would come up to Wyoming to "load up". for July 4th. That said, I have fond memories of doing fireworks.

[spin]

12. Obviously the solution to any and all problems is to ban something. ...

At least to some.

[Eleanors38]

13. The NRA causes bathroom tile mold!

[GreenStormCloud]

14. You can buy the ingredients for explosives at Wal-Mart,

or at Target, or Costco, or any other supermarket with a gardening section.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. How can a "terrorist" be prevented from buying something?

How can a "terrorist" be identified as a "terrorist"?

[CreekDog]

19. so you're saying that all materials used in crime are aquired illegally?

every single item used in a crime is acquired illegally and if any item is made illegal, a criminal will acquire that item illegally no matter what.

no law, no place, outlawing or regulating anything has ever slowed or stopped a criminal from getting that thing to use illegally.

such is your position, the NRA's and is the most laughable thing ever written that you all believe.

[gejohnston]

22. partly

every single item used in a crime is acquired illegally

no

a criminal will acquire that item illegally no matter what. no law, no place, outlawing or regulating anything has ever slowed or stopped a criminal from getting that thing to use illegally.

correct

such is your position, the NRA's and is the most laughable thing ever written that you all believe.

Yours is quite naive.

[holdencaufield]

24. "most laughable thing ever written"

You obviously don't read a lot of P.G. Woodhouse

[CreekDog]

25. no law ever stopped a criminal from acquiring the item to commit it nor has any law...

stopped a crime from being committed.

and you just stated you agree with that.

jeez.

[gejohnston]

26. can you provide and example of a criminal being stopped by a law

from acquiring an item or stopped the crime from being committed? I can provide thousands of examples to back up my assertion. See gun violence in Chicago, DC, Mexico, Jamaica, and even UK.

[holdencaufield]

29. It's not difficult -- for most

Laws don't stop criminals ... Laws DEFINE criminals.

Laws stop the law-abiding from performing (or not performing) certain acts -- criminals are not (by definition) law-abiding.

[CreekDog]

30. so what you're saying is that a criminal has never used something legal to commit a crime?

[holdencaufield]

33. Nope ... never said that.

Never implied it ... never even broached the subject. But, I have to admire your ability to stretch to a tangent.

Of course you can use legal things in an illegal manner. Hammers, saws, rope and large bottles of Olive Oil have all been used to break various laws -- sometimes with hilarious effect.

[CreekDog]

34. so you're saying some laws slow criminals down, they don't stop them

or some laws trip criminals up so that they get caught before a larger crime is committed?

or are you saying the above never happens?

[holdencaufield]

35. Nope -- didn't say that at all

Would you prefer I write in another language? Say, Klingon?

[CreekDog]

38. so you are saying that regulations and laws do slow criminals down sometimes

and you're saying that these things sometimes slow them down or trip them up enough that they get caught committing a smaller crime as part of a larger effort to commit a bigger one?

[holdencaufield]

41. Ummm .... no, I didn't

Do you know how this works? HINT: My posts have my name on them.


But, let's play with that premise for a moment with a hypothetical. On my way to a pre-meditated murder which I had been planning for months, I run over a homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk where I'm driving (besides being a criminal, I suck at driving).

I'm arrested, charged with vehicular manslaughter and sent to prison for five years. It's true, the VM conviction did slow me down on the way to my Murder in the First Degree crime I had been planning (didn't slow me down as much as that homeless guy did -- jeesh, it's like hitting a deer). But, in either case, I'm still a criminal -- willfully violating laws.

Now, you could make the argument that the entire reason that Vehicular Manslaughter laws exist is to slow-down all those murderers speeding towards their next ritual slaughter. But, I don't think too many carbon-based lifeforms with even a passing awareness of Earth would agree with you.

[CreekDog]

42. well what if you got caught stealing a gun because you couldn't buy one legally?

and the reason for stealing the gun was to commit a larger crime?

oh right, that never happens.

thanks,

[holdencaufield]

44. Yes ... it is illegal to steal a gun

Just like it is illegal to steal a loaf of bread, 14 pounds of Plutonium, or a deck of Pokemon trading cards -- all of which could be potentially used to commit a much more serious crime than that of stealing a gun.


Not sure what is your point

[CreekDog]

45. of course, you want to talk about bread and plutonium because the "legal gun" lost you your argument

[holdencaufield]

46. I'm sure you think it did

[gejohnston]

48. that is a crime

possessing a stolen gun is a federal crime. Speaking of guns, the latest story is that the brothers had one gun, a pistol. They murdered the MIT cop to steal his duty gun, but could not figure out how to get it in the holster. Just talking about this one pistol MA and federal gun control laws were violated
MA laws
no ownership permit
not registered
violated concealed carry laws

Federal laws
defaced serial number (Federal Firearms Act of 1938)
possessing a (most likely) stolen gun (1968 Gun Control Act)
prohibited person in possession (in this case, the older brother was convicted of domestic abuse) violating the Lautenberg Amendment to FFA and GCA.

If they got the gun in NH while buying the fireworks, that is another GCA 68 violation.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. In response:

"so you're saying that all materials used in crime are aquired illegally?"
- No, I didn't say that.


"every single item used in a crime is acquired illegally and if any item is made illegal, a criminal will acquire that item illegally no matter what."
- I didn't say that either. The question in the OP was premised on acquisitions made by "terrorists". The question you're asking is simply about illegal items. Since the loosely discussed topic here is bomb making, things like fertilizer, fuel and dynamite easily come to mind. They aren't illegal and some are more easily obtained than others. Things like plutonium and triaminotrinitrobenzene (TATB) I'd guess would be near impossible to get.


Just to be clear, I think it's fine to make laws to take measures limiting access to certain things from certain people. It's when you want to eliminate all access to certain things that have equivalents which are not controlled that you don't make sense.

My question is that since terrorists don't wear yellow hats with a big "T" on them, how do know when a "terrorist" is trying to buy something from you?

[Thinkingabout]

27. some here complain about their freedoms curtailed and I agree with that, I do not want

My freedom to move about the country halted by gun violence and the threats of violence, to have young children attend schools, to have an audience in a theater, to shop in a mall, to attend church and to participate in community affairs such as marathons. I also expect Congressional members to listen to the 90% and tell the 10% they are not the majority.

[sylvi]

28. Have there been a lot of black powder IEDs going off in the U.S. that I haven't heard of?

Sounds like the prohibition humpers are looking for something, anything they can claim as a victory.

[CreekDog]

32. 2 in Boston a week ago. Maybe if you weren't so uninformed you'd have heard of those.

oh and more planned for NYC, and many more devices in the apartment the perpetrators lived in.

all news to you of course.

in the midst of the Boston tragedy you've found the real people you consider a danger to you: the people who want to regulate or track black power and/or other explosives.

in this group, those people are the villains, not the Boston bombers (whom you haven't heard of and on that basis alone, nobody should listen to you).

[sylvi]

36. ZOMG!!! TWO??!!!!!

Holy fuck, we need another restrictive federal law to protect us from them thar terraists!!! Let's shit our pants and make some new restrictions for every anomalous event that occurs!!!

Seriously pal, when's the last time you left your house without your bubble?

[CreekDog]

37. I'm not going to be lectured about them by you when you hadn't heard of them until now

[sylvi]

40. Oh FFS

Are you really that lame? Who hasn't heard of the Boston bombing?

My question, if you had bothered to read it, was "Have there been a lot of black powder IEDs going off in the U.S. that I haven't heard of?"

Two is not generally considered "a lot" in this universe unless you're talking about nuclear weapons or earthquakes. Your universe's mileage may vary.

This is just more prohibition humper bullshit, capitalizing on a tragedy in order to get one more increment in their pet agenda pushed through. No different than the politics of fear Bush rammed down America's throat after 9/11 so he could shit on the Constitution.

[CreekDog]

43. you had not heard of the Boston bombing because you didn't know of any IED's used recently

hence your question about if anyone has heard of any IED's being used in crimes.

[sylvi]

47. A LOT. A LOT.

Read it again slowly. It's okay, you can move your lips while reading. A LOT. I didn't say "any", I said "A LOT".

[url]https://orders.hookedonphonics.com/Learn-To-Read.aspx?vc=WPG1&pc=SWPGCI&gclid=CI_n08mX57YCFegWMgodU08AjA[/url]

And here's me posting in a bombing-related thread 4 days ago, chief.

[url]http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2730349[/url]

[krispos42]

50. So the country is awash in freely-available explosive powder

Black powder and smokeless powder, aside from all the propane tanks and gasoline and stuff.



And 12 people a year are murdered with explosives.



12.

[sylvi]

51. Okay, now you've done it

Your going to have them wanting me to get my 87 octane unleaded through an FFL.

[umt9]

54. Blackpowder

Blackpower was invented by the Chinese about 200CE and the formula standardized, in Europe, by a monk known as Black Bartholomew in the 13th century. 3 parts charcoal, 3 parts sulphur, one part saltpeter, and pee in it to combine. Which of the ingredients should we regulate first? In the 15th century a manufacturer noted that the urine of an alcoholic made "stronger" powder. Should we also put tighter restrictions on frat parties and beer busts?
Note that its already a federal felony to possess or manufacture an explosive device.

[Control-Z]

55. Are you trying to be funny?

Can't really tell.

Welcome to DU,

[ileus]

57. Evidently the author didn't get the memo...

I'd hate to be so stupid.


I suppose Black Powder is used a shitload in terrorist attacks so he/she may have a point....