NY SAFE Act: FFLs are refusing to do private-sale transfers.

[Straw Man]

At least two gun dealers in the Rochester area say they will not facilitate transfers of firearms between two private parties. A third plans to charge more than what the law allows.

The New York Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act, the controversial new gun laws passed Jan. 15, requires all people selling a gun to someone else to conduct this process through a federally licensed firearms dealer. The only exception is for immediate family members. Dealers are not required to perform this service.

The dealer must run a background check and cannot charge more than $10. Dealers say the process is worth more than that.

“The store has to take the gun in, book it in, give you a receipt for selling it, give them a receipt for taking it, do a background check, book it out of our logbooks, save the background check forever in our records, and give them a lock with it, all for $10,” said Fred Calcagno, owner of American Sportsman in East Rochester. Calcagno said he has been turning away people who want to do the transfers.

Full article here: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20130423/NEWS01/304190082?fb_comment_id=fbc_322307921230327_6485954_322560001205119

FFL dealers in my area typically charge $30 to $40 for a transfer. The bulk of their transfer customers used to be interstate Internet sales, which have always required a background check. The ones who are strictly dealers -- as opposed to gunsmiths -- have tended not to like doing private-sale transfers anyway because they see private sales as cutting into their retail opportunities. Now the state is telling them that they can only charge a fraction of what they used to. No wonder they are refusing. Bear in mind that the FFL is a federal license, not a state one, but the state is attempting to set limits on the fees licensees can charge for their services.

This "reasonable" restriction is turning into a de facto ban on private sales in NY State. Discuss.

[Robb]

1. Wow, two whole gun dealers, huh?

[Straw Man]

4. Read the full article.

People are having trouble complying with the law because they can't find dealers who are willing to do the transfer. FFL dealers are not like 7/11s; you don't find one on every corner.

[Robb]

5. Yeah, they're real rare all right.

http://www.atf.gov/files/about/foia/download/ffl-list-2013/01/0113-ffl-list-new-york.txt

[Straw Man]

7. Slightly over 2000 FFL dealers.

In a state of roughly 54,000 square miles with 19.5 million people. One FFL per 27 square miles. One FFL per 9,750 people. And many of these are either closed-shop FFLs, like the West Point Pistol Team, or big-box stores, like Wal-Mart and Gander Mountain, that wouldn't touch a private transfer with a ten-foot pole.

If you want people to get background checks for private sales, perhaps making it easier rather than harder would be the way to go.

[DonP]

10. That's the nub of the issue ...

"If you want people to get background checks for private sales, perhaps making it easier rather than harder would be the way to go."

My guess is many there and here would actually prefer to make background checks as difficult as possible to make it harder and more of a barrier to buying a firearm of any type.

[littlewolf]

23. which will just result in people not obeying the law.

[upaloopa]

2. Yep there just is no way gun control

measures will work especially since gunners play block implementation.
If you gave a gunner a free drink with every background check they'd say the glass wasn't big enough.

[Straw Man]

6. Who is blocking implementation?

I think most people would gladly pay an extra $20 if the alternative is to either not do the transaction or break the law. Unfortunately, the way the law is written doesn't give them that choice.

What will be interesting to see is whether the state will attempt to prosecute dealers for charging more than the $10 cap.

[upaloopa]

8. You posted the OP. They are not going to do

background checks you say. They want to charge more.

[Straw Man]

13. Right.

They are not going to do

background checks you say. They want to charge more.

The law doesn't say that FFLs are required to do the checks. They can refuse the transaction and send the buyer and seller away to find someone else. The law does say that if they do the transaction, they will be breaking the law if they charge more than $10. Most of them are deciding that it isn't worth their time. Are you saying that they should operate their business at a loss in order to accommodate the governor's desires?

I know of four active FFLs in a fifty-mile radius around where I live. Only one of them will do a private transfer for $10, and that is only for his friends and prior customers. Anyone else will be refused.

Arguably, the law isn't about background checks; it's about discouraging private sales, even "safe" ones. Whether that was the intention, that is becoming the result. It is actually now easier to do an interstate transaction on the Internet than a face-to-face one in NY State. An FFL can charge whatever he wants for the interstate transaction.

[upaloopa]

15. There is most likely more to this issue then we find here.

Usually most of these things are way over simplified to support one point of view.
I don't have the time or inclination to deal with this but I'll bet in the near future we will hear of the other side or get more information.
In the months since the CT shootings I've found that most of what the anti gun initiative crowd has been saying is "the sky is falling" when in reality all that is happening is an effort to keep guns out of the hands of those who might commit illegal gun violence.
I'll hold judgement until I hear the other side.

[Straw Man]

17. I'd love to hear what it is.

But you're not inclined to back up your assertion with any evidence, so I suppose I'll never find out.

I presume by the "other side" you mean the state's rationale. To be absolutely charitable, perhaps they thought they were doing the private buyers and sellers a favor with the fee cap. How they could fail to realize that they were screwing the FFL dealers is beyond me. As I said, either incompetence or calculation.

[upaloopa]

19. Don't pull that gunner shit on me!

You make a statement and I have to defend against it. That's like all the right wing nut jobs that call radio shows and spout some wing nut talking point and expects the host to argue against it.
Your statement is not truth because you say it is and my not having time to argue with you doesn't make it more true.
Like I said we will most likely hear more on this in the future.

[Straw Man]

20. What "gunner shit"?

I cited a newspaper article describing a problem with the new law. You said there's another side to the story, but you didn't say what it is or cite a shred of evidence. You express doubt about the story but provide no rationale for your disbelief.

Don't pull that anti-gunner shit on me!

And when you hear "more on this in the future," make sure you get back to us, 'mkay?

[Laelth]

3. Anyone know the logic behind the $10 maximum fee for the service?

I don't get it. Why not let the free market decide what this service is worth? Why the cap?

And, even if the cap is Constitutional, which is questionable, why was it set so low?

Just looking for more info.

-Laelth

[Mopar151]

30. The cap makes no sense if you want the law to work.

Overthinking..... A fair price may be a disincentive for a Sat. nite special, or an unlicensed "trader", but lessening the places that an FFL transfer can be done is a mistake.

[gejohnston]

32. someone without an FFL

can't do the BGC.
I honestly think MI's system of getting a "clean bill of health" from the cops is a better system for private sales.

[rdharma]

36. The is no "$10 maximum" fee for private sales.

NY gun shops that are doing background checks are charging what they want. $25-$75 per private check is the going price right now.

The $10 maximum is for commercial transactionsl.

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are voluntary.

[Straw Man]

46. You can say that as many times as you want ...

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 09:46 PM - Edit history (1)

... but it's still 100% wrong.

This is from NY State's own informational website on the law:

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

This is from the bill itself:

25 ARTICLE 39-DDD
26 PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS

39 2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.
45 3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
46 PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
47 PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
48 REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
49 HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.
50 4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
51 TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
52 TRANSACTION.

--http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld&bn=S02230&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y#

It's very clear. Why do you keep peddling this misinformation? I'm starting to think that you don't even believe it yourself. Certainly no one could be so stupid as to maintain that NY State is deliberately misleading its citizens.

[Travis_0004]

51. Because legislators are idiots

They don't think, and understand how laws work. They want the price to be affordable, so they mandate a low price, but instead it becomes unavailable.


Another good example in Ohio is Notarizing stuff. I'm a notary, and the most I can charge is 2.00. Why the hell would I go through all that work, and fill out paperwork for 2.00? Its not worth the liability. Banks will do it because they view it as a service, but it makes the service less available.

[sigmasix]

9. lordy lordy guns cant be sold like candybars-our freedumb is gone!

The point is made well- gun sales should be scrutinized and the serious responsibilities of gun ownership ought to be recognized through requiring the gun purchaser to show they are capable of following common sense gun responsibility by being able to complete and pay for simple documents that assist society in curtailing the murderous results of bad people legally owning guns. Lots of gun crimes, deaths and injuries result from irresponsible people legally acquiring guns on demand. The funny thing is that gun nuts and NRA advocates almost always claim that they were responsible gun owners until they commit the crime- after the crime the gun owner is a criminal. This is one of the most disgusting dishonesties of the gun nuts; always changing the facts to fit thier conclusions, while 3 year old children lose thier lives to gun nuts regularly. One of the hallmarks of adulthood is the acceptance of responsibility- right wing gun nuts wouldnt know how to be a responsible adult; they never stopped playing the games of childhood and continue to hope for that whole "hero with a gun" ending. Since the NRA is busy arming child molesters, wife beaters and other violent felons it's obvious that the leaders of the NRA are working toward the goal of destroying America from within through the promulgation of radical antiAmerican conspiracy theories and putting guns in the hands of criminals.

[Straw Man]

12. Nice rant.

Unfortunately, it bears no relation to the topic under discussion. The FFL dealers are asking why the state feels it has the right to ask them to operate at a loss. The gun owners are asking how they can comply with the law when the FFLs are unwilling to bear the financial burden of the transaction.

The price cap is unrealistic, and it makes compliance with the law more difficult. Whether this can be attributed to incompetence or calculation is up for discussion.

Child molesters, wife beaters, and violent felons, oh my!

Anyone who uses the term "freedumb" is self-identifying as a propagandist hack with no interest in good-faith discussion. I'm just sayin' ...

[rdharma]

37. The cap price doesn't apply to checks for "private sale checks!

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are voluntary.

Most shops are charging from $25-$75 for private sale checks.

SO ........there is NO PROBLEM.

[Straw Man]

47. Wrong. Stop the misinformation.

This is from NY State's own informational website on the law:

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

This is from the bill itself:

25 ARTICLE 39-DDD
26 PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS

39 2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.
45 3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
46 PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
47 PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
48 REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
49 HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.
50 4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
51 TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
52 TRANSACTION.

--http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld&bn=S02230&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y#

[CokeMachine]

21. Do you have any Ranch Dressing to go with that post?

Paragraphs are your friend.

[kudzu22]

11. I don't believe this -- this legislation was well-thought out and debated prior to passage

Oh no, wait, it wasn't. Well, live with it then.

[EC]

14. Why can't they set this up on line

where anyone can access? Or how about eliminating private sales? Have clearing houses or used gun shops, where they get a cut of the sale, like consignment shops.

[Straw Man]

16. That would cost NY State money.

They'd have to set up a system. What they're doing now is piggy-backing on the federal system (the NICS), but they're adding their own requirements and stipulations to it: required for private sale, can't cost more than $10. It's unclear whether a state government actually has statutory authority to regulate the business practices of a federal licensee. That's part of the conundrum.

Eliminating private sales would be a huge and unprecedented infringement on rights. There would be a monstrous political shitstorm over that one.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. I believe that NICS...

...as it is setup now, allows access by FFLs and LE only. Private access not allowed.

[kudzu22]

22. Correct

Though I have advocated opening NICS to private access for years.

[ManiacJoe]

24. Maybe I missed something in the law's text,

but what part requires the FFL to take custody of the gun during the NICS check? The way I read the bill's text, the buyer would go to the FFL, get the NICS check, pay the fee, and take a copy of the paperwork to the seller.

[rdharma]

26. "what part requires the FFL to take custody of the gun during the NICS check?"

You're right. There is no such requirement. They are trying to make it sound like a "consignment sale"....... and it's NOT!

They're angling to bag people for a "consignment sale" because they can bag you for the background check AND charge you a certain % sales commission. Sweet deal........ for the dealer!

[Straw Man]

27. This is what the NY State Police FAQ says.

The background check must be performed by a dealer. Federal law and guidelines govern the process that dealers must follow if they choose to conduct a background check for a private sale.

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

You may visit the dealer along with the buyer/transferee and complete the sale or transfer together, or you may leave your firearm with the dealer to complete the sale or transfer on your behalf.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

The paperwork that goes with a NICS check is the 4473, which requires the dealer to enter make, model, and serial number of the firearm being transferred. The protocol for interstate sales is for the FFL to receive the shipped firearm, log it into his book, contact the buyer to come in for the check, and then transfer the firearm to the buyer after verifying his identity and performing the background check. The firearm has to go into and out of his book, and auditors will check to see that all sign-outs correspond to a 4473 or other proof of disposition (such as for "returned to manufacturer," "destroyed," "transferred to self," etc.). This is all stipulated by Federal law.

As you can see above, NY is punting to the Feds for the protocol of the check. The gist is that they're capping the fee at $10 for a service that FFLs normally charge $30 to $40 for. The only thing that the FFL doesn't have to do for the face-to-face that he would have to do for an interstate sale is open the box and call the buyer.

[ManiacJoe]

28. That explains it. Thanks!

[rdharma]

39. No, it doesn't explain it...............

There IS NO $10 CAP FOR PRIVATE SALE CHECKS IN NY!

Somebody doesn't know their facts. (Not mentioning names)

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are voluntary.

Most shops are charging from $25-$75 for private sale checks.

SO ........there is NO PROBLEM.

[Straw Man]

40. You are 100% wrong.

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)

There IS NO $10 CAP FOR PRIVATE SALE CHECKS IN NY!

Somebody doesn't know their facts. (Not mentioning names)

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are voluntary.

"Voluntary" merely means they don't have to do it at all. If they do it, they can't charge more than $10.

This is from NY State's own informational website on the law:

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

This is from the bill itself:

25 ARTICLE 39-DDD
26 PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS

39 2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.
45 3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
46 PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
47 PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
48 REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
49 HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.
50 4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
51 TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
52 TRANSACTION.

--http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld&bn=S02230&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y#

You are the one who does not know the facts. Please stop spreading misinformation.

[rdharma]

25. I'm sure some guy with an FFL will figure out how to make money on this.........

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 05:54 PM - Edit history (1)

And problem solved.

Think about it...... An FFL holder could specialize in these types of transfers and have a business that requires NO INVENTORY.

There were folks that were doing this at Colorado gun shows and they were making money HAND OVER FIST!

Don't give me the boo-hoo story 'cause it's just a lot of baloney!

[Straw Man]

29. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Think about it...... An FFL holder could specialize in these types of transferes and have a business that requires NO INVENTORY.

There were folks that were doing this at Colorado gun shows and they were making money HAND OVER FIST!

I have never had a transfer that took less than half an hour, when you add up the paperwork and the time spent on the actual check. So let's say $20 an hour, but how many could you do in a day? You'd have to advertise, and that costs something. In an urban or suburban area it might be viable.

Then there's this to consider: At the peak of the gun-buying frenzy last winter, some NICS checks were taking as much as three hours to return a result. (This is with the computerized submission -- a phone check would have encountered nothing but busy signals.) The lines were just that backed up. For a $10 transfer, that's $3.33 per hour. At the time when your services were most in demand, you would be forced to turn customers away because you couldn't accommodate them. Oopsie.

At a gun show, an FFL could do some volume, certainly. Of course, he'd have to pay for his table. Then think: How many gun shows are there a month in a given area? Or are you envisioning itinerant FFLs, who follow the gun shows around the country like Deadheads, living in their vans and making money HAND OVER FIST! Just imagine how rich they'd get: not only NO INVENTORY, but no rent or mortgage payment either!

I imagine your Colorado entrepreneurs were charging more than $10, right? No state law capping their fees?

You're a riot. A real riot.

[rdharma]

31. Buwahahaaa! Then you're doing it wrong!

The guys at the Colorado gun shows who did this would do multiple checks at the same time.

As I recall, the cost was $15 or $20 per check. They would have about 3-5 people filling out 4473s at a time.

If you don't have organizational skills, it might be tough. And I imagine you did very few checks...... so it might not be worth your while.

Believe me ...... the money was being passed pretty quickly!

And BTW, at that time. Background checks were only only required at gun shows for private sales. With a state that requires background checks for ALL private transfers, there's going to be even more demand for these guys.

Go ahead...... keep in denial!

[gejohnston]

33. or offer

MI's system, which predates NICS, of having the check done by the cops and give the "clean bill of health" to the seller. As I understand it, you get the permit, for the lack of a better term, that is valid for 30 days. Before the gun show, or answering a classified ad, you get your form from the cops and give it to the seller.
OR/AND
allow non FFLs use the online NICS. The only problem I see is expecting someone to give their social security number and other information that can be used for identity theft.

[rdharma]

34. Non-FFLs using online NICS and risk of identity theft.

And there's probably a lot of other "nastiness" that could go on. Think of the possibilities.

[gejohnston]

35. that is why I like

Michigan's system. I'm sure other states do that as well, it is the only one I'm aware of.

[Straw Man]

42. Me too.

That system sounds like a reasonable, non-intrusive compromise.

[Straw Man]

43. You can fill out all the forms at the same time ...

The guys at the Colorado gun shows who did this would do multiple checks at the same time.

As I recall, the cost was $15 or $20 per check. They would have about 3-5 people filling out 4473s at a time.

... but you can only run as many NICS checks at one time as you have phone/computer lines and people to man them, and your turnaround time on each one is dependent on how much traffic the NICS system is sustaining at the moment. Starts to sound like diminishing returns, doesn't it?

And BTW, at that time. Background checks were only only required at gun shows for private sales. With a state that requires background checks for ALL private transfers, there's going to be even more demand for these guys.

What do you mean? Background checks are certainly required at gun shows for dealer sales. Or are you talking about non-sale transfers? Gifts and loans of firearms? That's not going to be a substantial source of income, and it's certainly not going to be happening at gun shows.

You are not making a shred of sense.

[oneshooter]

48. Thats one reason I like the Texas CHL. No call needed!!

[rdharma]

38. "I imagine your Colorado entrepreneurs were charging more than $10, right?"

But the NY dealers are also charging more than $10 for private sale checks TOO.

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are "voluntary".

Most shops are charging from $25-$75 for private sale checks.

So who is it who needs to check their facts, Straw Man?

[Straw Man]

41. Wrong, as usual.

But the NY dealers are also charging more than $10 for private sale checks TOO.

Gun shop owners can charge you more than $10 for the private sale because background checks for private sales are "voluntary"

Not legally, they can't. As I mentioned above, "voluntary" does not mean they can charge whatever they want. It only means they can refuse to do the transfer, in which case the buyer and seller are out of luck. The law is quite clear on that. Some dealers are flouting the law and charging their usual rates. It remains to be seen what the state will do about it.

So who is it who needs to check their facts, Straw Man?

I have cited the NY State FAQ on the law several times. You have cited nothing but your own outlandish interpretations. If you have some facts, please share them. Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation.

[rdharma]

44. "Not legally, they can't." .......... Oh yes they can!

You didn't read the article you posted from! It's right in there..... READ! Talk about "misinformation"!

"One dealer who will still facilitate the transfers is Kordell Jackson, owner of Jackson Guns and Ammo in Henrietta and Scottsville. However, he said he is charging $35."

[Straw Man]

45. Not legally.

You didn't read the article you posted from! It's right in there..... READ! Talk about "misinformation"!

"One dealer who will still facilitate the transfers is Kordell Jackson, owner of Jackson Guns and Ammo in Henrietta and Scottsville. However, he said he is charging $35."

He is in clear violation of the law. I quoted the State FAQ on the SAFE Act. Did you read that? Are you saying that NY State is deliberately misleading the public on their website?

This is from NY State's own informational website on the law:

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

This is from the bill itself:

25 ARTICLE 39-DDD
26 PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS

39 2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.
45 3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
46 PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
47 PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
48 REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
49 HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.
50 4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
51 TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
52 TRANSACTION.

--http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld&bn=S02230&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y#

[krispos42]

49. That was my idea

Create a federal license class for a transfer agent, a person who can't buy or sell firearms but who can facilitate a legal transfer between two private parties.

Have the cost of the permit be cheap or even free... if universal background checks are such an important issue to fighting expensive crime then we can afford to do the background check for the permit for free.

Hell, in you're so convinced it will face so much money in crime costs then we should make the transfers free and pay a $25 fee for each sale he facilitates.

[Straw Man]

50. Sort of like a notary public?

I like the idea. Give them a NICS I.D. and a stamp pad and set them to work.

[krispos42]

52. Yeah.

And furthermore, we could use it in conjunction with annual limits on buying and selling guns.

I think a limit of 10 or 12 per calender year would be sufficient. If you're buying more than that, get a collector's license. If you're selling more than that, declare yourself a business and get a permit and some incorporation papers.


Look at that! I'm in favor of annual purchasing limits!