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Mosby

(16,247 posts)
Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:51 PM Apr 2013

Stop Blaming Israel And America For Fayyad’s Fall

Who lost Salam Fayyad? The resignation-dismissal of the respected Palestinian Prime Minister has provoked plenty of finger-pointing. Every Mideast pundit has a favored Western villain: it was intransigent Israel’s fault; overly-Zionist Congress is to blame; evil Bibi Netanyahu did him in; weak President Obama hung him out to dry; it was those obstacle-to-peace settlers. The New York Times’ Thomas Friedman, in fact, couldn’t choose just one—he accused all of the above in his April 24 column.

Such analyses are themselves evidence of a fundamental problem with Fayyad’s tenure: popular as he was in international aid circles and New York Times (and Daily Beast) op-eds—and even among Israelis—Fayyad had no democratic Palestinian constituency to speak of. (Friedman, at least, added other Arab leaders to his hall of blame.) Furthermore, Fayyad’s foreign fan club, seldom holding the Palestinians themselves responsible for anything, did little to coax the populace toward his camp.

Archie Bunker once said of then-President Gerald Ford, “He’s doing a great job for a guy nobody voted for.” However well Fayyad did, his “emergency” prime minister appointment was never ratified by the legislature or the voters.

He did face election in 2006, leading his “Third Way” party, preaching reform of corrupt security forces, clean and transparent government, and Palestinian progress toward independence not through armed struggle with Israel but through socioeconomic progress and democratic institution-building. As a finance minister with a decent record of fighting corruption (for example, he instituted direct deposit of salaries to employee accounts, replacing the existing skim-from-the-bag-of-cash system), he was already admired internationally: he was The Great Palestinian Hope.

And his party won...two seats out of 132; Fatah and Hamas won a combined 129. For the Palestinian voters, there was no Third Way.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/29/stop-blaming-israel-and-america-for-fayyad-s-fall.html

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Stop Blaming Israel And America For Fayyad’s Fall (Original Post) Mosby Apr 2013 OP
Sure he was respected. aranthus Apr 2013 #1
Of course! Palestinians, Arabs, and the Left all hate liberalism and democracy Scootaloo Apr 2013 #2
Think liberalism is alive and well within Hamas or the PA King_David Apr 2013 #3
So Hamas speaks for all "Arabs, Palestinians, and the Left"? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #5
Hamas and the PA were elected overwhelmingly King_David Apr 2013 #6
They were elected, so Palestinians hate democracy? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #7
They hate western liberal democracy. Ergo, no Fayyad anymore. n/t shira Apr 2013 #8
Do they, now? Scootaloo May 2013 #13
They're about as extreme rightwing as it gets. Fayyad won't be replaced by anyone.... shira May 2013 #18
And you infer that all Arabs, all Palestinians, and the whole of the left hate liberal democracy? Scootaloo May 2013 #19
Not all, but almost all. That leaves some (about 10%) who would be for it. n/t shira May 2013 #33
I see. Scootaloo May 2013 #68
Ha you think that "elections alone" are what democracy is all about? King_David May 2013 #22
I'm just asking you the same thing your third-grade teacher would. Scootaloo May 2013 #24
You can't say people "hate democracy" just because they didn't vote the way you wanted. Ken Burch Apr 2013 #10
Communism is not what being Left is all about King_David Apr 2013 #11
I agee that Communism(especially Stalinism)isn't what "Left" means Ken Burch May 2013 #12
Pro-democracy, as in pro-Chavez....who was pro-Iran, Syria? shira May 2013 #16
You assume that "pro-western liberal democracy" means being anti-Chavez. Ken Burch May 2013 #39
Chavez' Venezuela is yr example of a democracy that is superior to the West's.... shira May 2013 #47
I don't have to play that game Ken Burch May 2013 #50
Your grasp on the subject is tenuous at best n/t Scootaloo May 2013 #14
Extreme Left and extreme Right intersect King_David May 2013 #21
Not really, they don't Scootaloo May 2013 #23
You make up stuff King_David May 2013 #30
You conflate party and ideology. Scootaloo May 2013 #64
Yes but antiZionist views would be considered King_David May 2013 #72
Keep trying, my friend Scootaloo May 2013 #79
"my position is currently "marginal," King_David May 2013 #81
"The same thing essentially" Scootaloo May 2013 #83
"you're the one who"... King_David May 2013 #85
why do you so disrespect the Palestinians? pelsar May 2013 #15
I don't disrespect them. I just disagree with what you seem to think these results meant. Ken Burch May 2013 #41
you tell me..what do they believe in? pelsar May 2013 #52
I didn't say that and you know it. aranthus May 2013 #32
actually that's exactly what you said very first post on this thread azurnoir May 2013 #58
No that is not what I said. aranthus May 2013 #62
perhaps it is not what you meant azurnoir May 2013 #65
I never " misunderstood" him at all King_David May 2013 #75
That is in fact your thesis Scootaloo May 2013 #69
No it isn't. aranthus May 2013 #71
There's 2 resident posters on this thread King_David May 2013 #76
I've noticed. aranthus May 2013 #77
Yeah, it is; it's certainly what you said Scootaloo May 2013 #80
You keep proving my point aranthus May 2013 #82
I've stated my positions frequently Scootaloo May 2013 #84
The Left and Palestinians don't hate democracy. Ken Burch Apr 2013 #9
They hate western liberal democracy. No civil rights, anti- women, gays.... shira May 2013 #17
Well, to play devil's advocate... Scootaloo May 2013 #20
Western Liberal Democracy isn't perfect but it's the best system in the world.... shira May 2013 #34
You don't know that Palestinians oppose "Western Liberal Democracy" Ken Burch May 2013 #43
So identify one democracy that is superior to western liberal democracy. shira May 2013 #46
There are good things in the west...but those good things Ken Burch May 2013 #48
I think we actually agree that even though western liberal democracy... shira May 2013 #49
It has good things and it has bad things. Ken Burch May 2013 #51
Civil liberties, separation of powers, free speech/press, equal rights, etc.... shira May 2013 #53
I don't deny the achievements of democrats in the West. Ken Burch May 2013 #57
Regional chauvinism? Please. Civil rights & liberties trumps all else, hands down. shira May 2013 #61
So you support an immediate end to the occupation of the West Bank? Scootaloo May 2013 #67
And I salute those who fought for and won civil liberties, in the West and elsewhere. Ken Burch May 2013 #74
It's sad to see you work so hard to miss my point Scootaloo May 2013 #54
The USA isn't the only liberal western democracy, you know? shira May 2013 #60
Again, you struggle mightily to avoid the point Scootaloo May 2013 #63
None of that is true. Ken Burch May 2013 #44
I understand why you are defensive about this, but let's be clear. aranthus May 2013 #31
Fayyad didn't lose(to my knowledge)because he was liked by Israel Ken Burch May 2013 #40
"I didn't say that the Left or the Palestinians "hate democracy."" Scootaloo May 2013 #66
well that's nice and all but I really haven't seen much blame going on here azurnoir Apr 2013 #4
Yeah, how about "Stop telling us what to think!", how's that? bemildred May 2013 #25
Nobody voted for him and he never really had much popular support oberliner May 2013 #26
Thanks for clearing that up. bemildred May 2013 #27
I wasn't trying to clear anything up oberliner May 2013 #28
OK. I feel grumpy today. Nothing personal. bemildred May 2013 #29
No worries oberliner May 2013 #37
Well, he has always seemed an anomalous figure to me. bemildred May 2013 #38
Well yes, that's the point. aranthus May 2013 #35
Good question oberliner May 2013 #36
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons. aranthus May 2013 #42
It might have something to do with the process of his appointment Scootaloo May 2013 #70
Perhaps, but unlikely. aranthus May 2013 #78
And neither of those facts justifies casting ugly assertions on Palestinians as a group. Ken Burch May 2013 #45
No such aspersions have been cast oberliner May 2013 #55
You haven't read the posts upthread Ken Burch May 2013 #56
I meant by me oberliner May 2013 #59
I wasn't saying it was you, just that it was happening in the thread Ken Burch May 2013 #73

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
1. Sure he was respected.
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:45 AM
Apr 2013

He was admired by Americans, Israelis and those who would like to see the Palestinians build the institutions of real liberal democratic governance. But by Palestinians, middle east Arabs and the Left, not so much. Which is why he doesn't have the job anymore.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
2. Of course! Palestinians, Arabs, and the Left all hate liberalism and democracy
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 08:52 AM
Apr 2013

Good to see the rhetoric of Jonah Goldberg can still be found in mainstream "liberal zionism" Aranthus.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
3. Think liberalism is alive and well within Hamas or the PA
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 09:47 AM
Apr 2013

Or the "antiZionist " movement amongs Greta Berlin Richard Falk or David Duke etc ?

It's nothing to do with the genuine democratic left as represented by Obama or our Democratic Party reps in congress.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
5. So Hamas speaks for all "Arabs, Palestinians, and the Left"?
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 04:27 PM
Apr 2013

Interesting.

Also, I was unaware that the United States Democratic Party defined leftism the world over. Also interesting.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
7. They were elected, so Palestinians hate democracy?
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 05:12 PM
Apr 2013

You're going to have to walk me through this one.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
13. Do they, now?
Wed May 1, 2013, 02:59 AM
May 2013

So because the guy who was - not exactly legally, it should be noted - appointed as Prime Minister by Mahmoud Abbas tendered his resignation (for a second time!) that means Palestinians, Arabs, and the left hate "western liberal democracy."

Hmmm. Interesting.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
18. They're about as extreme rightwing as it gets. Fayyad won't be replaced by anyone....
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:47 AM
May 2013

...who believes in western liberal values. Here's why:

Homosexuality: 89% of Palestinians think it’s immoral.
Women’s rights: 89% of Palestinians think women must always “obey” their husband.
Sharia Law: 89% favor the imposition of Sharia Law into their society.
Honor killings: 45% of Palestinians think it’s sometimes justifiable.

http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview.aspx

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
19. And you infer that all Arabs, all Palestinians, and the whole of the left hate liberal democracy?
Wed May 1, 2013, 07:11 AM
May 2013

Remember, this is Aranthus' thesis.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
10. You can't say people "hate democracy" just because they didn't vote the way you wanted.
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 06:09 PM
Apr 2013

They weren't obligated to vote for Fayyad's party to PROVE they back democracy.

And the Left IS pro-democracy...they fight for it around the world...it's just that they don't equate it with capitalism and austerity.

OK?

King_David

(14,851 posts)
11. Communism is not what being Left is all about
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 11:28 PM
Apr 2013

and the party I identify with ie: the USA Democratic Party rejects that notion out of hand.

OK ?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
12. I agee that Communism(especially Stalinism)isn't what "Left" means
Wed May 1, 2013, 02:51 AM
May 2013

But, in this particular group, the word "Left" is used as a slur, and it shouldn't ever be.
And the 99% of the Left that isn't Stalinist is pro-democracy by definition, is automatically pro-democracy. The vast majority of the Left that is non-Stalinist shouldn't have to keep PROVING
that it is pro-democracy.

Can we all just agree on that?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
16. Pro-democracy, as in pro-Chavez....who was pro-Iran, Syria?
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:15 AM
May 2013

Why not pro- western liberal democracy?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
39. You assume that "pro-western liberal democracy" means being anti-Chavez.
Wed May 1, 2013, 08:39 PM
May 2013

The Left backed Chavez because he was the only presidential candidate in Venezuela who cared about the poor. None of his opponents cared about them or wanted them to have a decent life...they proved that by backing capitalism and austerity.

There was nothing that could be done about Ahmadinejad anyway. The West wouldn't put in anyone better if they overthrew him. The West proved that by restoring the Shah, who was just as anti-democracy as anyone YOU could name.

And really, why should "the West" dominate the world? The West has no greater claim to moral purity than anyplace else. The West had to be forced, from below, to be liberal and democratic. Had it been left to the elites, the West would still have hereditary monarchs or, at best, permanent control of the political spectrum by right-wing ideas(which is what "the West" is trying to impose on Greece and Spain at the moment, trying to make those countries lands of permanent austerity and no social wage, conditions that would make elections meaningless, since it doesn't matter which candidate administers permanent economic royalism).

"The West" is simply one part of the world. It's just as prone to tyranny and brutality as any other zone of the world. The fact that "The West&quot and especially the "free market" types you personally support) all backed Hitler on "anti-communist" grounds in the Thirties...and didn't try to stop him until stopping him no longer mattered.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
47. Chavez' Venezuela is yr example of a democracy that is superior to the West's....
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:41 PM
May 2013

....liberal democracies?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
50. I don't have to play that game
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:50 PM
May 2013

Western democracies have good and bad things. Chavismo has good and bad things, and it hasn't yet reached its final form. And if Chavez defended the West Bank Occupation and the settlements, you wouldn't care about ANY of the bad things.

You keep setting up "either/or" choices, and life doesn't work that way. Why do you WANT it to?

It's not as though any good would come of the Left embracing Western supremacism. Doing so would mean giving up on workers rights, peace, social justice and any hope of an ultimately just and compassionate world. It would mean embracing austerity capitalism(as you do, I assume), and that means giving up on all efforts to make life any better at all.

Why are you so fixated on making people choose between "the West" and something else? It's as if you're nostalgic for the Cold War or something. No one should be nostalgic for that, because the Cold War was one of the most reactionary(on BOTH sides, for the record)and life-stifling eras in human history. All efforts to liberate anybody from misery or exploitation were forced into a "does 'the West' win or does 'international Communism" win?" model that benefited no one but arms merchants and Wall Street. A bipolar world was just as bad for life as bipolar illness is for your head.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
21. Extreme Left and extreme Right intersect
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:28 AM
May 2013

Especially when it comes to Jews and Zionism .

The Left I support and follow is more that of the Democratic Party or that of the liberal party in Canada or Labour Party of the uk or meretz or labour in Israel .

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
23. Not really, they don't
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:50 AM
May 2013

At any rate, your buddy Aranthus never once said "extreme." He just characterized all Arabs, all Palestinians, and the entirety of "the left" as hating liberal democracy. You identify with the left of any sort, well, you hate liberal democracy. Plus if you're an Arab at all. or a Palestinian.

And I don't give a half a shit what party you support, David. Supporting the Democratic party sure as fuck is no guarantee of you actually being a liberal. Such a declaration is functionally meaningless, and mostly seems to be your attempt to cover your own ass after you raced out in support of asserting all Arabs and leftists are backwards evil people who hate democracy.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
30. You make up stuff
Wed May 1, 2013, 01:06 PM
May 2013

And a self confessed antiZionist is considered marginal and extremist by any standard but especially within my Democratic Party .

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
64. You conflate party and ideology.
Fri May 3, 2013, 12:43 AM
May 2013

The United States Democratic party is only "left" when compared to the US Republican party. You may have also missed the memo that owing to the two-party structure of US politics, both parties have a wild ideological variety. The Democratic Party does harbor earnest leftists such as Dennis Kucinich. It also harbors earnest Fascists like Dov Hikind.

Saying "I'm a Democrat" when asked about your ideology is a meaningless statement. if someone asks you what music you listen to, do you say "the radio"? it's just exceedingly vague, man.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
72. Yes but antiZionist views would be considered
Fri May 3, 2013, 04:34 PM
May 2013

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

marginal and extremist within the party and dollars to donuts even Dennis Kucinich would be expelled if he openly supported and voiced that he was an antiZionist .

The views on such ( anti-Zionism) expressed here on DU (by 1 particular poster ) are so extreme (more right wing than left , Stormfront David Duke , Buchanen like ) that its surprising they call this Democratic Party supporting website home .


(Just like the Richard Falk creep , for example:
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1134&pid=40914 )

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
79. Keep trying, my friend
Sat May 4, 2013, 01:08 AM
May 2013

One, the Democratic party does not expel anyone; perhaps you're confusing the word "democratic" with "autocratic"? Second, you might not be familiar with Kucinich's positions on Israel and the US's relationship with that nation, and should probably do a little research on the subject before claiming he would be "expelled".

Also, you might want to let it sink through your head that popularity does not actually have any bearing on whether a position is right or wrong. If you were liberal to any degree, this notion would simply be common sense.

Similarly, if you were actually a liberal of any sort, you would have a good understanding that political parties are quite fallible institutions, due to the necessity of playing for the least common denominator in order to maximize electoral gains; political parties lag well behind popular sentiment, which in turn tends to drag well behind ethical evolution.

So, sure Zionism is a popular position with the Democratic party in 2013, and antizionism is marginal.
Just as denying GLBT persons equal rights was popular with the Democratic party in 1996, while calls for equal rights were marginal
Just as segregation was popular with the Democratic party in 1955, while integration was marginal.
Just as colonial adventurism was popular with hte Democratic party in the 1910's and '20's, while anti-imperialism was marginal
Just as suppression of labor was popular with the democratic party in the 1890's, while socialism was marginal
Just as open support for the Klan was popular with the Democratic party in the 1870's, while anti-terrorism was marginal
Just as support for slavery was popular with the Democratic party in the 1850's, while abolition was marginal
Just as genocide was popular with the Democratic party in the 1830's, while Indian advocacy was marginal.

The way I see it, David, my position is currently "marginal," but yours is ultimately the one that will be marginalized and discarded. Just like your spiritual forebears:

King_David

(14,851 posts)
81. "my position is currently "marginal,"
Sat May 4, 2013, 08:23 AM
May 2013

Not amongst the extreme right wing it's not.
AntiZionism is very much part of that culture.

There's websites that cater to that bigotry.

This website supports the ideals of the Democratic Party , and antiZionism or antiSemitism ( same thing essentially ) is not openly encouraged here. It has always been an occult problem however.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
83. "The same thing essentially"
Sun May 5, 2013, 12:34 AM
May 2013

Funny that for all your inane yelping about the right wing, you're the one who equates all Jews on Earth with a single state, and assert all fourteen million of them are politically identical, and that those politics are the crux of Jewishness. And you've done so repeatedly.

Also you might want to read DU beyond your own posts. It's got a wider spectrum of political beliefs on it than you attribute to it. An overwhelming majority of DU posters believe the Democratic party is completely wrong about one thing or another. In fact there's a pretty sizable contingent of DU posters who are actively working to change the current positions of the democratic party. This might be hard for an authoritarian to understand - this will make the second time in one thread I've pointed it out to you - but neither the Democratic party nor Democratic Underground demands absolute lockstep adherence to everything the party holds to, and both have plenty of room for people who pointedly do not claim such total adherence.

It's called being a liberal, my friend. it's a lot more intellectually stimulating than fascism, maybe you should give it a try; we're always recruiting

King_David

(14,851 posts)
85. "you're the one who"...
Sun May 5, 2013, 09:38 AM
May 2013

Yada yada yada....

Blah bla bla..

You and someone else on this board make up stuff and manufacture other people's views.

As far as your views being "liberal"..?

LOL.. I've seen those extremist bigoted antiZionist views on the web , in places that Definatly could not be described as liberal .



pelsar

(12,283 posts)
15. why do you so disrespect the Palestinians?
Wed May 1, 2013, 04:13 AM
May 2013
And his party won...two seats out of 132; Fatah and Hamas won a combined 129. For the Palestinian voters, there was no Third Way.

apparently the Palestenians using a voting system, rejected what the 3rd way representated..which is a western democratic value system

Instead they voted for the theocratic, anti democratic hamas and the secular anti democratic dictator....

it would be nice if u respected the Palestinians a bit more and their clear rejection of western democratic values that you seem to believe are "universal", because i dont believe hamas and you see "eye to eye" on civil rights, on womens rights etc and it was they who were voted in.
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
41. I don't disrespect them. I just disagree with what you seem to think these results meant.
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:04 PM
May 2013

You believe that Palestinians HAD to vote for Fayyad to prove they backed democracy. I believe Fayyad simply represented one party among many, no more virtuous than any other. And I also believe that his showing doesn't mean anything about what Palestinians believe regarding democracy.

You've set up a false absolute with your last post, and it's an arrogant thing to do. Fayyad wasn't leading the ONLY democratic party in this election, nor was he the only advocate OF democracy. And the results don't prove anything at all about what Palestinians believe regarding democracy AS A CONCEPT.

And why is it so important to you to label Palestinians(as you earlier labeled Eqyptians)as being inherently anti-democratic? How is that not bigoted? How is that not demagogic?

Fayyad is just one man. He's not the ONLY alternative to dictatorship, for God's sake. And labeling Palestinians as enemies of democracy doesn't achieve anything at all.

It isn't a worthwhile thing to do to demonize an entire people. That is wrong when it's done to Israelis...it's equally wrong when it's done to Palestinians.

And this election result does NOT justify perpetuating the Occupation, because we already know that perpetuating the Occupation can't make Palestinians believe in any of the things YOU claim that they don't believe in, and we also know that simply treating the Palestinians as a enemy to be crushed can't lead to anything positive, because it isn't possible anymore to militarily defeat a nation into democracy. That hasn't worked since 1950, and it can't ever work again(if that was actually what made Japan and Germany democratic, which is debatable).

pelsar

(12,283 posts)
52. you tell me..what do they believe in?
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:04 PM
May 2013

Last edited Wed May 1, 2013, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)

And why is it so important to you to label Palestinians(as you earlier labeled Eqyptians)as being inherently anti-democratic? How is that not bigoted? How is that not demagogic?

whats demagogic about listening to what the people voted for? in both cases they voted in, out of their own free will, parties that were anti western democratic.

(i didnt use the word "inherently"...u just make up stuff, you have a habit of doing that)

Fayyad wasn't leading the ONLY democratic party in this election
really?...name the other ones
_____

so why did they vote in the party (s) that had platforms that rejected western civil rights etc on their platforms? if its not what they really wanted?
_____

then you have this gem:
Beyond that, this result doesn't necessarily mean anything.
wow, so when a society freely votes in or rejects a political platform, its "means nothing"...would you like to repeat that, i find it pretty interesting

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
32. I didn't say that and you know it.
Wed May 1, 2013, 03:57 PM
May 2013

You simply made it up about me. The point is not that they hate democracy. It's that they want to radicalize Palestinians and get rid of Israel more.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
58. actually that's exactly what you said very first post on this thread
Thu May 2, 2013, 06:11 PM
May 2013

aranthus (2,260 posts)
1. Sure he was respected.

View profile
He was admired by Americans, Israelis and those who would like to see the Palestinians build the institutions of real liberal democratic governance. But by Palestinians, middle east Arabs and the Left, not so much. Which is why he doesn't have the job anymore.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/113440672#post1

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
62. No that is not what I said.
Thu May 2, 2013, 09:08 PM
May 2013

The post you quoted does not say what you claim. It certainly does not say that Palestinians hate democracy or liberalism. It says that they did not respect Fayyad for trying to build the institutions of liberal democracy (as opposed to doing something else). That doesn't mean that they oppose democracy. It means that they want some other things more than they want Fayyad's way of going about it.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
75. I never " misunderstood" him at all
Fri May 3, 2013, 06:36 PM
May 2013

Or fabricated views upon him like 2 resident posters regularly do...

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
69. That is in fact your thesis
Fri May 3, 2013, 08:44 AM
May 2013

It's right there at the top of the thread. Your friends are squirming around trying to defend the racist and anti-left shit you spewed. None of which, by the way, is new rhetoric from you or any other "liberal zionist" poster here.

So now you're changing your shitty narrative to another, equally shitty narrative, that the left wants to radicalize Palestinian and obliterate Israel.

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
71. No it isn't.
Fri May 3, 2013, 09:31 AM
May 2013

I've been quite clear about my thesis. And it certainly isn't racist. I love how you gratuitously throw that in. As for the second narrative, well, yes, that is the thesis. The Left, by which I have never included the Democratic party, tends to support BDS and Right of Return. Don't you? I can think of several Leftists on this board who do; Delrem, Azurnoir, I believe you for example. And very few who don't. Leftistbrit comes to mind. That entire theory of the middle east that supprts BDS and Right of Return is based on delegitimizing Israel and replacing it with an Arab state, since that is the end result of both BDS and Right of Return.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
76. There's 2 resident posters on this thread
Fri May 3, 2013, 06:39 PM
May 2013

That regularly manufacture and ascribe nasty views upon other posters .

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
77. I've noticed.
Fri May 3, 2013, 08:28 PM
May 2013

Also, I love how at least two of the people up in arms about my thesis also support BDS and Right of Return, which actually proves it.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
80. Yeah, it is; it's certainly what you said
Sat May 4, 2013, 01:43 AM
May 2013

I explained why this is downthread; it has to do with you casting a blanket characterization over Arabs, Palestinians, and the left, divorcing them from those people who want "real liberal democracy." You then tried to rephrase this as "the left" attempting to radicalize Palestinian to obliterate Israel.

It's a bad day when you end up being less subtle than Glenn Beck when making inanely stupid arguments drawn from the moronic depths of the right wing. My advice is to learn how to utilize language in order to say exactly what you mean, because even if you fuck that up, people are still going to believe you mean what you say.

I support the right of people to boycott what they wish to boycott, and to call for political actions as they see fit. And I do not think that a right should be deferred for the convenience of the people who violated it in the first place. You do not believe people should be free to call for a boycott, nor to engage in political action, and you believe rights can and should be violated for the pleasure of those in power.

And you have the balls to call yourself a liberal and wag your finger at "the left" for its supposed hostility to democracy?

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
82. You keep proving my point
Sat May 4, 2013, 06:21 PM
May 2013

So you support BDS and Right of Return. Why you couldn't simply state that I don't know, but that is certainly the meaning of your post. So, do the Jews have no right to a state of their own? The rest of your post is just pure BS out of your own imagination.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
84. I've stated my positions frequently
Sun May 5, 2013, 12:51 AM
May 2013

I stated it in such a way here so you could understand the root of my support; remember what I just said about using language to convey thought effectively? A second reason is due to your clearly being unable to grasp the notion that these positions do not actually mean what you think they mean.

As I've also made clear several times around here, I don't draw special exception towards Israel; I support boycotts against other offenders against human rights as well, and believe that displaced persons the world over are entitled to the right to return to their erstwhile homes if they wish to do so, or to be awarded remuneration for their exile. Just as true for Burmese refugees as for Palestinian Refugees as for the Iraqi and Iranian Jewish refugees.

You disagree with my notion that people have a right to boycott and engage in political action for whatever cause they see fit. You disagree with my assertion that a right is a right, no matter if it happens to be an inconvenience for the people who violate that right. Pointing out that this makes you something other than a liberal is far from BS. Even if you adopt these principles most of the time and only abandon them when Israel comes into the mix, it still makes you quite a bit less than a liberal. To mischaracterize rights advocates as genocidal maniacs is utter idiocy. But, I guess when the only tool in your box is a hammer, everything is a nail, huh?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
9. The Left and Palestinians don't hate democracy.
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 06:08 PM
Apr 2013

Claiming that they do is right-wing bullshit. You're better than that.

The Left isn't the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1947, for Christ's sake.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
17. They hate western liberal democracy. No civil rights, anti- women, gays....
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:19 AM
May 2013

...freedom of press, religion, speech, separation of powers, environment, gun laws, etc.

Voting in dictators is not what democracy is all about.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
20. Well, to play devil's advocate...
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:05 AM
May 2013

Look up at that Pew Poll you posted. You want to use that poll to explain your position that Palestinians hate "western liberal democracy." Okay, let's run with that. I disagree, but for the moment, let's just go with it. Do you see who's consistently more "hardcore" than the Palestinian Territories?

Iraq and Afghanistan.

Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan. These three have had some interesting interactions with Western Liberal Democracies, haven't they? Do you think it's just coincidence that the three territories who seem most resistant to "western liberal democracy" seem to be the ones that have been fucked over the most by "Western liberal democracies"?

I mean really, the actions of "Western Liberal Democracies" when outside "the west" doesn't really do a lot to spread those ideals. We treat our own fairly well (use as many asterisks as you need) but when we go abroad, "Western Liberal Democracies" tend to shed every single ideal we espouse.

Turns out that abuse generates more resentment than compliance in the long run.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
34. Western Liberal Democracy isn't perfect but it's the best system in the world....
Wed May 1, 2013, 04:33 PM
May 2013

Last edited Wed May 1, 2013, 10:45 PM - Edit history (1)

What other type of democracy do you prefer that's better?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
43. You don't know that Palestinians oppose "Western Liberal Democracy"
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:12 PM
May 2013

They weren't obligated to vote for Fayyad to prove that they aren't pro-dictatorship. Fayyad probably lost simply because he wasn't well-known and didn't have much of a program to offer on economic and social issues(which are always the issues that ordinary people everywhere place before the question of "democracy" as an airy abstraction).

And there are other forms of democracy besides the democracy-and-austerity(sorry, "free market economics&quot with no social wage that YOU support when you, like Reagan and Thatcher, refer smugly to "Western democracy".

There is political democracy extended to economic democracy. There is social democracy. There is intellectual and educational democracy(which requires that low-cost or no-cost university education be made available to all, rather than just being kept as a privilege for the few).

There are the "community councils" that Hugo Chavez set up in Venezuela, which represent the first time workers and the poor have had a real say in the major concerns of their lives(only the rich are truly represented in conventional "representative" parliaments, which are always skewed towards control by the Right).

The current form of "democracy" that exists in the United States in Europe is far from democratic, and there's no reason we should limit democracy to that. Democracy is SUPPOSED to mean having a real say in the major questions of life...not just voting for a bunch of cynical hacks to go off in a room and do what their party leaders or(in this country)the lobbyists with the biggest checkbooks make them do.

Democracy is the freeing of the people, and the end of the age of anyone above forcing sacrifice on anyone below while avoiding sacrifice themselves(or while gaining ground themselves).

OK?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
46. So identify one democracy that is superior to western liberal democracy.
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:54 PM
May 2013

You want to go with Chavez' Venezuela, or do you have something better in mind?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
48. There are good things in the west...but those good things
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:44 PM
May 2013

don't depend on the bad things(austerity capitalism and militarism). We don't owe LGBTQ rights and feminism to the rich and the generals.

We can ALWAYS make something better, and we should always try. Why do you want to hang onto the right-wing "end of history" myth?

So I'm not going to play your "name something better" game, because I don't think we've reached the end of history, nor should we want to.

We are always better off as a world when we are working, from below, for something better. Do you disagree with that assessment?

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
49. I think we actually agree that even though western liberal democracy...
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:46 PM
May 2013

...has its flaws, and it certainly does, it's still better than anything else out there.

Yes?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
51. It has good things and it has bad things.
Wed May 1, 2013, 10:53 PM
May 2013

Why do you have to get people to choose which system is "better" and which is "worse"? Systems are just systems. The issue isn't which system do we ally ourselves with...it's how do we make the world we need, the just, kind, egalitarian, fully democratic and peaceful world we have to get to at some point. Demanding systemic loyalty doesn't further that goal, because which system and which civilization might hold which degree of power doesn't matter anymore.

We don't have to choose between civilizations or systems. Trying to make people do so actually limits choice and stifles discussion.

What matters is helping the human race get what it ultimately wants and needs.

Demanding that people "choose the West" is Cold War logic, and the Cold War was a horrible era in human history. It was a horrible era for religious and cultural minorities in both "spheres".

Please don't get nostalgic for the bad old days. They weren't good for you. Or me. Or much of anybody.

It wouldn't do any good to the vast majority of the human race to try to turn Arabs and Muslims(as I think you want to do)into this year's "Russkies".

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
53. Civil liberties, separation of powers, free speech/press, equal rights, etc....
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:46 PM
May 2013

All this is rare in human history and is something to be commended. It's the best we've got (still improving) and you know it. It's something most nations in the world should aspire to. Liberals have every right to be proud of their liberal societies, proud of trying to make it better, having the power to do so....

We agree that western liberal democracies should be more socialist and less militaristic and there are some democracies like that today. More would be better. But let's not pretend other lesser pseudo-democracies, authoritarian, fascist, or totalitarian regimes are comparable or about as decent when they don't come close to supporting or guaranteeing left/liberal values and policies. Leave that to the right-wingers and fascists who are against liberal values. When a self-proclaimed progressive like yourself does that, you're betraying all you allegedly stand for.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
57. I don't deny the achievements of democrats in the West.
Thu May 2, 2013, 05:59 PM
May 2013

I simply don't believe in regional chauvinism, or in fixating about "who's best". And there's no reason I should.

What matters is making a better world.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
61. Regional chauvinism? Please. Civil rights & liberties trumps all else, hands down.
Thu May 2, 2013, 08:26 PM
May 2013

There's not much to respect WRT other forms of government that do not have laws guaranteeing liberal/progressive values, individual rights, etc.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
67. So you support an immediate end to the occupation of the West Bank?
Fri May 3, 2013, 08:06 AM
May 2013

Military occupations aren't well-known for their democratic principles and respect for civil rights, after all.

No, of course you don't. You only support liberalism, democracy, and civil rights when they are applied to Israeli Jews.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
74. And I salute those who fought for and won civil liberties, in the West and elsewhere.
Fri May 3, 2013, 06:32 PM
May 2013

And I salute those who struggle for progressive democratic change around the world...including Occupy and its descendants, Idle No More among indigenous peoples, and the various movements for change and hope on every continent. Unlike you, I don't believe that non-Western places can only have democratic values if "the West" imposes them from without through some sort of coercion. Iraq is showing us, once again, how badly that approach works.

I don't have to say "the West is superior" to do that, because to say the West is superior is also to give credit, unfairly, to all the dictatorial figures of the West, some of whom are still with us, who fought and continue to fight against such liberties.

It was just geographic happenstance that many of the things you cite happened in "the West". With different circumstances, they could just as easily have happened more often elsewhere, and civil liberties had to be won from below, sometimes at great loss of life, in "the West".

So work for a liberated world, but don't get into silly games of saying "we're better than you". All that kind of talk does is turn people in other parts of the world who might otherwise be in sympathy with what you want against you and what you are trying to do. The Arab Spring, with its flaws, proves that even in what may look like the most hidebound and tyrannical of places, change can come(and remember, the West wasn't democratized in three years-the period since the Spring bloomed-it took centuries for the West to be made even slightly liberal-so don't assume that the story is over yet in the Arab and Muslim world. The key is the will to be optimistic, and the will to be open. You don't free a people by claiming that their whole region is an eternal dead loss, the way YOU so often do with the Arab and Muslim world.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
54. It's sad to see you work so hard to miss my point
Thu May 2, 2013, 12:57 AM
May 2013

Are you at all aware of even just the United States' interaction with nations of the middle east, Shira? Even just one country, Iraq.

Do you think our involvement in the installation of Saddam Hussein and the baath party as rulers of iraq showed the Iraqis the merits of western liberal democracy?

Do you think our funding and arming his effort to conquer Iran, the longest and bloodiest war the Middle East had seen until that point, showed either Iranians or Iraqis the merits of western liberal democracy?

Do you think our green-lighting of Saddam's desire to invade and annex Kuwait warmed the people of Kuwait to our ideals? Remember, we didn't get involved until Saddam decided to take a chunk of Saudi Arabia, too.

Do you think ten years of starvation sanctions inflicted upon the common men and women if Iraq, while our secretary of state looked at their children dying from whooping cough and saying "totally worth it" showcased our beliefs as a western liberal democracy?

Do you think our shock and aw campaign, based on the premise of lies fed to us, and followed by a brutal ten-year occupation that left the nation in ruins and hundreds of thousands dead and millions displaced, did an awesome job of showing Iraqis the light of western liberal democracy?

What, you expect them to emulate us after what we've put them through? The Iraqis should be grateful to us for our gifts of civilization, transferred to them via the bullet-riddled corpses of their children and the looted and smashed edifices of their culture? Fifty years of constant abuse at our hands should make them amenable to our position? Is that what you really believe?

Repeat for Iran. repeat for Afghanistan. Repeat for Egypt. Repeat for Palestine. Repeat for Bahrain. Repeat for Saudi Arabia. Repeat for Pakistan; all US playgrounds of oppression... And then we have to go look and the records of other "Western liberal democracies" and [their interaction with the region. Again, none of which does a good job of showcasing the ideals these so-called western liberal democracies purportedly hold to.

It doesn't matter if it's the "best system." You can't beat someone into adopting your beliefs. You can't constantly violate your beliefs and ethics an then tell the people you rape and pillage that those ethics and beliefs are what they should adhere to. The world just does not work that way.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
60. The USA isn't the only liberal western democracy, you know?
Thu May 2, 2013, 08:24 PM
May 2013

That said, the form of government is better than any other, hands down.

I'm assuming you agree.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
63. Again, you struggle mightily to avoid the point
Fri May 3, 2013, 12:25 AM
May 2013

Allow me to simplify it.

Can you spread 'western liberal democracy' by shooting people?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
44. None of that is true.
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:15 PM
May 2013

Voting for Fayyad wasn't the ONLY way to vote for the things you listed above. He probably lost simply because he wasn't personally appealing and didn't have a program on economic and social justice.

It serves no purpose to assume the worst about Palestinians as a collectivity. If it's wrong to do that about Israelis, it's equally wrong to do that about Palestinians. Neither grouping has a hive mind.

This whole thread is demogogic and bigoted. This was simply one election result. Making it into a reason to demonize all Palestinians is simply wrong.

Why do you WANT to demonize Palestinians, shira? What good does that do? And even if you were right, even if they were against all the things you say they are against, do you really believe that a more militarized Israeli policy towards Palestine could possibly change that?

You can't BEAT people into liberalism, y'know.

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
31. I understand why you are defensive about this, but let's be clear.
Wed May 1, 2013, 03:35 PM
May 2013

Last edited Wed May 1, 2013, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

I didn't say that the Left or the Palestinians "hate democracy." You made that up about me. And while I would like to say that you're better than that, you do it far too often. But let's also be honest about where we differ. Although today's Left isn't your Uncle Joe's Left, it still clings to the same root of the ideology. It believes that Western Civilization is bad. Not just imperfect, but affirmatively evil. Something that needs to be fundamentally changed from the inside (socialism) or done away with (radical Leftism). That isn't a right-wing perspective. It's a realist perspective.

But even that isn't the point of what I wrote, or of the original post, which point you seem to have missed. To make it clear. Saying that the Left doesn't hate democracy is like saying everyone wants peace. It's a meaningless truism. Why? Because everyone wants peace. It's just that most people want something (or several somethings) more than they want peace. Likewise, the Left wants things more than it wants democracy, certainly more than it wants the liberal democracy of the West, which it wants gone. In this particular instance what it seems to want is to support those elements of Palestinian society that continue to want the end of Israel as a Jewish state; which is what the Palestinians seem to want as well.

Part of that is likely due to Fayyad being liked by Israel and the US. He was "acting white". If you don't understand the reference, it is this. There are some elements of modern American Black society that view things like getting an education as, "acting white." That is becoming like the oppressor. It's an extremely counterproductive belief. Obviously, that isn't the only reason. I and many Israelis suspect that the core reason is that Palestinian society wants to destroy the Jewish state more than they want a real state of their own. As with the Left, not much has really changed since 1947.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
40. Fayyad didn't lose(to my knowledge)because he was liked by Israel
Wed May 1, 2013, 08:56 PM
May 2013

He lost because he just didn't have much of a program. It's arrogant to say that Palestinians HAD to vote for Fayyad or else be proven anti-democratic. Democracy means accepting that people have the right to vote for the parties THEY want...and, if you object to who they voted for, working to make the parties YOU wish they would vote for better and more appealing.

Fayyad wasn't the ONLY "pro-democracy" leader in the Palestinian election.

As to Western civilization, the Left doesn't believe that it's uniquely evil-just that it isn't uniquely virtuous. Western "civilization", at various points, has built itself using just as much brutality, tyranny and ugliness as any other civilization anywhere else. We don't want "the West" to disappear, just to grow some humility, lose the arrogance, and treat everyone decently and with human respect. That, at the root, is what all that the Left works for in "the West".

There have been improvements in Western civilization, but only when they were forced by pressure from below. Every movement for change in "the West&quot from the abolition of slavery, still incomplete, to the emancipation of women, the emancipation of labor and more recently the partial liberation of LGBTQ people)was attacked from above as "an assault on Western civilization".

Decent treatment for Jewish people was part of those changes that were forced on "the West" from below, and that still need to be forced on it, because antisemitism(as well as many other forms of hate)are still endemic in parts of "the West" and it is still the Left, more than anyone else, that works against bigotry and oppression.

It's a great thing that those changes that have improved things in "the West" come when they are made to come(and it will be even better when the changes that are still necessary come, as they must, including changes guaranteeing economic and social justice and environmental sustainability and protecting people from being economically discarded as "deadwood", a term that should NEVER be used against a human being) but such changes are not unique to "the West", and people are working for them globally, often with the forces of "the West" still working against them. And those changes, forced on "the West" as they always are, do NOT entitle "the West&quot and I say this as a person of the West, with what could generally be considered "Western values&quot to claim inherent superiority. It isn't helpful to keep saying "we're better", and the West isn't entitled, because really, nobody is. All parts of the world are made up of flawed people running flawed systems with flawed results. In all such places, change is possible, but must come from within, and can't EVER be forced from without as a spoil of conquest. The rest of the world improves itself, and will improve itself, on its own terms, but it cannot be improved by the West gloating about its own alleged superiority and looking down its nose at everyone else. And as a person who is descended from victims of Western arrogance(Hitler's era being the ultimate exemplar of Western delusions of superiority)you should be aware of how dangerous it is for ANY one part of the world, or any one nation to expect the rest of the world to accept it as the Alpha and the Omega of life.

It's just about not being overbearing, really.

Is that such a hard thing to accept?


The West has good things, as do other civilizations, it's just that it isn't entitled to expect the world to automatically view it as "the gold standard".

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
66. "I didn't say that the Left or the Palestinians "hate democracy.""
Fri May 3, 2013, 07:42 AM
May 2013
He was admired by Americans, Israelis and those who would like to see the Palestinians build the institutions of real liberal democratic governance. But by Palestinians, middle east Arabs and the Left, not so much.


Those Palestinians, middle east Arabs (As opposed to Siberian Arabs?) and the Left are obviously divorced from those who want to see institutions of real liberal democratic governance.

Of course, I would have to wonder what your conception of "real liberal governance" is. Given the examples of "liberal zionism" I've seen, I don't think you're likely to be qualified to speak on the subjects of liberalism, democracy, or reality.

That you use Israel and the US as examples of advocates of Palestinian liberal democracy certainly proves you haven't the first fucking clue about what in the world you're talking about. One nation is the one founded on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and continues the tradition via a campaign of violent conquest and occupation against the territories that remain in Palestinian hands... and the other is the endless bank account that funds and arms these efforts and provides diplomatic immunity at all times. Not exactly the best advocates there.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
4. well that's nice and all but I really haven't seen much blame going on here
Tue Apr 30, 2013, 03:07 PM
Apr 2013

and what articles I have seen on this subject tend to point the finger at Abbas, but it is a valiant effort indeed

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
25. Yeah, how about "Stop telling us what to think!", how's that?
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:03 AM
May 2013

One wonders if "losing Fayyad" is anything like "losing China", remember the "Who lost China" argument? I do. And the basic problem there was thinking you ever had China, just like here the problem is thinking you ever had Fayyad. They were never anybodies property. It's a stupid argument. Why Fayyad is leaving is perfectly clear, he is not inarticulate and he has said what he wanted, and he has been ignored for years now.

The OP reminds of the desperate bullshit barrage launched following 9/11 (and still ongoing) to fend off the realization that our government is run by narcissistic, incompetent, negligent fools.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
26. Nobody voted for him and he never really had much popular support
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:24 AM
May 2013

I think that's the long and the short of it.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
28. I wasn't trying to clear anything up
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:44 AM
May 2013

I was just adding my opinion with respect to why he was unable to be successful.

That was the one component of the OP that I did agree with.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
29. OK. I feel grumpy today. Nothing personal.
Wed May 1, 2013, 11:51 AM
May 2013

I think he was precisely as successful as he was alllowed to be, no more and no less. And unfortunately the effect of that was mostly to prop up the current disfunction a bit longer. I think he just got tired of being used.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
37. No worries
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:44 PM
May 2013

I find him to be a very curious figure in many ways. One wonders if there can ever truly be a non-Fatah non Hamas unity figure who can serve as a respected Palestinian PM in the future.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
38. Well, he has always seemed an anomalous figure to me.
Wed May 1, 2013, 06:38 PM
May 2013

Mostly because he was (however modestly) effective. But no, not a politician, and yes it will have to be a politician.

When they let Marwan Barghouti (I can't really think of anyone else who might do) out I will believe they want to try to negotiate a deal.

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
35. Well yes, that's the point.
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:25 PM
May 2013

To add to that, when his party ran in elections, it did very badly. It's not a case of outsiders like the US failing to support him (assuming that anyone is seriously making that claim). It's that he had no support in Palestine. The interesting question is why? If he was as competent as we have been told, and if his policies were actually working, then why didn't he have very much support?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
36. Good question
Wed May 1, 2013, 05:43 PM
May 2013

What do you think is the answer? Why was his popularity so low among Palestinians?

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
42. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons.
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:10 PM
May 2013

He may not have had much personal charisma. Some people have very good ideas, but couldn't get elected if they were the only ones on the ballot. Others in the PA and Hamas may be better political operatives, or have a bigger and better "machine." West Bankers probably had different priorities. Number one is getting the Israelis out of the West Bank, and Fayyad has more of a build up to that approach. There's also a tendency in the Arab world to favor whoever is perceived as a "fighter". The question asked is, "what has he done to stand up to Israel?" Remember how much mileage Nasser got out of that stance, even after 1967. In that way, what outsiders may have done to help sink Fayyad is approve of him. Then there is also the possiblity that Palestinians really would rather fight Israel than build their own country. Probably a mix of all of these and more.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
70. It might have something to do with the process of his appointment
Fri May 3, 2013, 09:05 AM
May 2013

See, the Palestinian President has authority to dismiss a Prime Minister, but he cannot appoint a replacement without presenting the candidate to the Legislative Council. The outgoing prime Minister also heads a caretaker government until the LC approves the appointment. Now the trouble is, Abbas did not do any of this. Thus under Palestinian law, neither Haniyeh's dismissal nor Fayyad's appointment are actually legal.

In other words? A cause for his lack of popularity may be because his appointment is in fact a violation of the democratic processes you claim to support (and claim that Palestinian just absolutely hate.) Even if people like his ideas and positions, he's still a product of a despotic move by Abbas and a reminder of the civil war in 2007.

aranthus

(3,385 posts)
78. Perhaps, but unlikely.
Fri May 3, 2013, 08:35 PM
May 2013

It doesn't explain why his party did so poorly in elections. After all, the current PA government is plenty weak on electoral legitimacy (it's term had expired). Same for Hamas'. And Fayyad was nowhere near as corrupt as the PA that appointed him, nor as tyrannical as Hamas. Yet both Hamas and the PA did better than Fayyad's party. And no one that I know of in Palestinian society is adopting his ideas. And once again, you are completely misstating my position. I never claimed anything like "the Palestinians just absolutely hate democracy."

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
45. And neither of those facts justifies casting ugly assertions on Palestinians as a group.
Wed May 1, 2013, 09:17 PM
May 2013

Palestinians do not deserve to be demonized over this. It's just the failure of one guy to get votes. Beyond that, this result doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
55. No such aspersions have been cast
Thu May 2, 2013, 06:08 AM
May 2013

Palestinians are not being demonized over this.

In fact, it's more the US and Israel who are being criticized here.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
56. You haven't read the posts upthread
Thu May 2, 2013, 05:56 PM
May 2013

in which it has been repeatedly argued that the failure of this one candidate to get more support somehow "proves" that Palestinians oppose democracy.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
59. I meant by me
Thu May 2, 2013, 06:45 PM
May 2013

Although I do think it's fair to criticize Palestinians for voting for Hamas in such large numbers - just like it would be fair for others outside the US to do the same for the Republicans.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
73. I wasn't saying it was you, just that it was happening in the thread
Fri May 3, 2013, 06:26 PM
May 2013

Sorry for the confusion on that.

And yes, you can criticize people for voting for what they voted for, but the problem comes in when someone tries to go from just doing that to making a sweeping dismissal of an entire national polity just because the party the person making the dismissal supported didn't win many votes.

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