Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Dutch media’s sin of omission
I wrote an article about these widely held beliefs, which resemble the dark anti-Semitic views propagated during the Middle Ages. I sent it to two Dutch newspapers. Both refused to print it. It was then published on one of the Netherlands’ largest blogs, Dagelijkse Standaard. This blog is also read by journalists from the major Dutch papers, yet they did not publish anything on the study. Only a small Christian internet radio station, Pillar of Fire, whose editor was shocked by the report’s findings, contacted me for an interview.
Many major Dutch media publish trivial items about Israel, as long as they are sufficiently negative. Both the abject belief of about 5 million Dutchmen and the media’s silence on the extreme hatred of Israel reflect aspects of what is radically wrong with Dutch society. However, I received some private reactions. Several were from whitewashers who said the findings were wrong. They ignored not only this German study, but also a 2003 Eurobarometer study which found that 59 percent of Europeans thought that Israel was the largest threat to world peace. The percentage in the Netherlands was the highest among EU countries at 74 percent.
more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-dutch-medias-sin-of-omission/
The fruits of the anti-Israel / anti-Jewish demonization & dehumanization campaign.
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GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... that a little thing like collective embarrassment over the Holocaust was going to change 2,000 years of European treatment of Jews, did you?
When details of the Holocaust became public knowledge outside of Europe after the war it might have forced the Europeans to be less vocal when it comes to expressing their feelings about Jews or acting on those feeling, but those feelings are still an ingrained part of European culture.
No, in my opinion, the only persons changed by the Holocaust are the Jews ourselves. It took the Holocaust for a lot of us to realize the depths of the hatred some Europeans feel for us and just how far they are willing to go to act on that hatred when they think they can do so with impunity.
Betsy Ross
(3,147 posts)Holden Caufield is as Jewish as Betsy Ross. Who knew?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... but do go on.
It's rare that anyone speaks their mind regarding how they feel about Jews here on DU. I would consider it a favour if you spoke more plainly.
Betsy Ross
(3,147 posts)I usually get "Who knew Betsy Ross was Jewish." I had the same reaction to your user name.
shira
(30,109 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... to see someone (maybe Betsy Ross) finally come out from behind their "I just hate Zionists" facade for a moment. Pity, I'm sure her handlers have already warned her.
shira
(30,109 posts)Just as jewish as she (Betsy Ross) is.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... from literature? I'm not surprised, some people think "I Love Lucy" is real.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)the 38 percent of Dutch people would be right. But, by that standard, the United States would also be guilty with regard to its indigenous population and if you go back long enough, it's probably true for most of Europe.
As for the 59 percent of Europeans who reportedly believe Israel was the largest threat to world peace, that opinion too might be equally well-founded. Israel is not alone as a major threat to world peace, but it has to be well up on anyone's list of countries that routinely threaten its neighbors with military action. But, of course, that's mutual.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)You wrote
"well up on anyone's list of countries that routinely threaten its neighbors with military action"
When I believe you meant to say
"well up on anyone's list of countries that ARE routinely attacked and threatened by their neighbours with military action"
I wouldn't worry -- a lot of folks seem to mix that up.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 29, 2013, 07:09 PM - Edit history (1)
your reply is already awaited 
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... here is a short list of actual attacks on Israel by its neighbours
Egypt -- '48, '67, '72
Jordan -- '48, '67, '72
Iraq -- '48, '67, '72
Syria -- '48, '67, '72
Lebanon -- '48, '67, '72, '82, '06 (the last two times by proxy Hezbollah)
Saudi Arabia -- '48, '67
Yemen -- '48, '67
Sudan -- '48, '67
PLO -- continuously between '69 and '06 (supported by Jordan, Yemen, Egypt and Lebanon)
Hamas -- continuously since '92 (supported mostly by Egypt, Iran and the Gulf Arab States)
Hezbollah -- periodically since '82 (supported mostly by Syria and Iran)
Countries who currently only make threats of military action (but, as of yet, haven't got the stones to try it)
Iran -- pretty continuously since '89 -- more so lately
Now -- compare that with a list of countries OUR OWN country has threatened and actually attacked in the same time period (1948 to the present day) and tell me, "who is the greatest threat to peace in this world?" Is it tiny Israel, responding to continuous attack by its neighbours or our own?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bad news the PLO recognized Israel in 1993 and has not been at war with Israel since since
the rest not for 45 years at least and oh you seem to forget that Israel signed treaties with at least 2 of the countries you mention, guess that's pretty meaningless though huh?
oh and tell us which one of the countries you mention has nuclear weapons and reputedly threatened to use them against one of it's neighbors? "
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... where Israel overtly threatens to use nuclear weapons on anyone. The Israeli government doesn't even tacitly acknowledge they even possess nuclear weapons.
As for the PLO -- their proxy agent, Islamic Jihad Movement, who still operate openly in both the West Bank and Gaza, have laid claim to many bombing attacks on Israel since that '93 "recognition" of Israel. Between Hamas and the IJM, they have claimed nearly 200 bombing attacks on Israel between '93 and today.
Your statement "Really which of neighbors threaten military action against it" -- well, you have your lists, read it before scoffing at it. Israel has been not just threatened but continuously attacked by her neighbours or those acting on behalf of her neighbours since its first day of existence. To claim otherwise is to be deliberately deceitful.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)In another meeting - according to Hanna Zemer, the one-time editor of the newspaper Davar - Dayan spoke of the possibility that "the Third Temple," meaning the state, would be destroyed. Foreign news outlets have reported that Israel readied its nuclear weapons and even considered using them as a last resort.
The Dimona nuclear facility was completed in 1960. Those same foreign reports say Israel had several dozen nuclear weapons in October 1973, as well as the means to deliver them: French-made Mirage and U.S.-made Phantom aircraft and the Jericho missile, an Israeli improvement on a French model. All of these, the reports said, were at full readiness.
Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh called his book on Israel's nuclear program "The Samson Option." The implication is that Israel would use atomic weapons if it viewed itself as facing certain, imminent destruction.
If these reports are accurate - and the documents released this week do not confirm them, but possibly only hint at them through portions blacked out by the military censor - this would be neither the first nor the last time Israel's leaders have discussed their so-called "doomsday weapons."
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/did-israel-ever-consider-using-nuclear-weapons-1.317592
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... to use nuclear weapons on anyone. Thanks for the confirmation.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really twist and shout anyway you please it's right there
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... "Foreign news outlets have reported that Israel readied its nuclear weapons and even considered using them as a last resort. "
"foreign news outlets" -- be they Pravda, Al Jezeera, AFP or the New York Times -- are not, by definition, part of or even particularly friendly towards the Israeli government. They can report whatever they like -- and frequently do.
If someone is fool enough to believe them, shame on them.
On the other hand, I suspect you're fully aware of this and are simply attempting to pass on innuendo as fact. I'm not surprised, it's not the first time.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Davar was an Israeli newspaper
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... couldn't even claim that it was an Israeli-paper who published that quote. He had to imply that it was published by mysterious and unnamed "foreign news sources".
I can point you to similar "foreign news sources" that have reported on Israel using thought-transmitting devices, genetically enhanced insects, and trained commando mice to attack their neighbours -- would you believe those as well?
Response to holdencaufield (Reply #32)
holdencaufield This message was self-deleted by its author.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)The practice of stripping context from history is nauseating, but at least get your decontextualized soundbytes reasonably accurate! And get the fuck out of here with that "tiny Israel" line of rubbish.. Your own sin of omission supposes that poor "tiny Israel" was just minding its own business as all of these primitive monsters were plotting against the little one! As if its own aggressions and sabotage operations are nothing!
* 1973 was the year of the Ramadan War, not '72
* Hizbu'llah did not exist until around 1985; some fighters from the Lebanese branch of al-Da'wa and Islamic Amal had been operating against the occupation sooner, usually under independent commanders, some of whom eventually gravitated into the aegis of Sheikh Tufayli and the martyr Imad Mughniyah and the later, formal organization of Hizbu'llah after the mid 80s. Hizbu'llah has not really been supported by Syria until Ta`if. Their camps were enemies, or at least non-speaking rivals, before this time.
* To the best of my knowledge, the Saudi contigent in 1948 fired its only shots in anger at the Iraqi delegation
* "Lebanon - '82, '06"--you're counting resistance to foreign invasion and occupation as an "attack on Israel"? oooookay... your credibility was very shaky anyway, absolutely shot with lines like that.
* Hamas has been fighting since 1989
* The PLO has been fighting since Israeli raids in Jordan in 1964, most of its component organizations had been operating against the plundering entity since the beginning
* Iran has considered "Israel" an enemy since 1979, Khumayni(RA) considered it a "cancerous growth" since long before.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... that Israel has never been attacked or threatened by anyone and they stand alone as the only state in the region (ah heck, the world) who has ever threatened anyone.
Or, I suspect, you don't believe it, but merely hope others will. Well, good luck with that, it seems the good people of Europe are ready to buy what you sell. It wouldn't be the first time.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I did point out that most of stuff is more than 40 years old and at least 2 of the states you named have signed peace treaties with Israel since
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)But, I assure you, you needn't fear. I'm actually quite keen to hear what you really think.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what it is you are claiming I think?
you were certainly articulate enough here, in this reply to me
holdencaufield (2,900 posts)
29. That isn't what happened ...
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... and being deliberately obtuse about it doesn't change that.
But, I know how you feel about those of a "certain" ethnicity and I'm not going to change that. So, attribute all the evil motivations to this you choose.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38628
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Obviously, Israel fired the first shot in the 1967 war. While there was a pissing contest leading up to the 1967 war, Israel started that as well, when it bombed the Syrian water diversion works taking place at the Hasbani river in Lebanon.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)With the blockade of the southern ports. Blockades are the most awful and terrible thing that...umm...*some*...countries can do. Sometimes they're ok. Three guesses as to precisely what conditions make it cuddly, and what cases can be excuses for an erstwhile blatant land grab.
I notice there was also no mention of '56. Probably for the best, it's uncomfortable to watch somebody trying to dance around without a leg to stand on..
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Well done!
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas declared war on Israel long before the blockade.
See the difference now? Probably not.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Arab stone throwing is a war crime but Jewish stone throwing isnt
The bombing of the King David Hotel wasnt terrorism, but if the Arabs did it it would be
If Arab civilians are killed, they were human shields, but if Israel deliberately puts civilians in harms way in the territories, somehow they are not
Arabs always start wars, even when they don't, and Israel never starts wars, even when they do
Attacks by Arabs are always terrorism, even if they kill soldiers exclusively (the 1982 Marine Barracks bombing). Attacks by Israel are never terrorism, even if they kill civilians and UN peackeepers exclusively (the first Qana massacre)
Every Arab leader was and is a Nazi (Nasser, Sadat, Arafat, Abbas, Ahmadinejad (Persian)). Any comparison of any Israeli to a Nazi is anti-semitism.
Support for a one-state solution is anti-Semitism, unless it is Jewish settlers supporting a one-state solution, in which case it isnt.
The Jewish right of self-defence extends to anything. The Arab right of self-defence amounts to nothing. Jews were entitled to lynch and torture British soldiers during the British occupation of Palestine. Arabs are not entitled to throw rocks at Israeli soldiers during the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
shira
(30,109 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Gaza has been subject to a naval blockade since the beginning of the occupation. Apart from flotilla vessels which reached Gaza in 2008, no foreign ship has docked at the port of Gaza for over forty years.
Under the Oslo accord, both the naval and air blockades were to be lifted, and Gazan fisherman were to be permitted to fish out to 20 nautical miles. The Israelis never kept the latter promise (fisherman were never allowed out beyond the 12-nautical mile line). The Gazans began rebuilding the Port of Gaza in the 1990s, but it was bombed by the Israelis in 2000.
So, Israel's blockade precedes not only Hamas' "war on Israel" but the existence of Hamas itself. You'll have to come up with another half-arsed argument, I'm afraid.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You showed 'em!
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)when truth is on your side, I guess.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The conflict began when militants from the group Hezbollah fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
shira
(30,109 posts)After years of these blood libels and demonization efforts, it's no wonder such a high percentage of Europeans believe it.
Six decades after the mass extermination of six million Jews in the Holocaust by Nazi Germany, more than 50 percent of Germans believe that Israel's present-day treatment of the Palestinians is similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II, a German survey released this weekend shows.
51 percent of respondents said that there is not much of a difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today and what the Nazis did to the Jews during the Holocaust, compared to 49% who disagreed with such a comparison, according to the poll carried out by Germany's University of Bielefeld.
The survey also found that 68 percent of Germans believe that Israel is waging a "war of extermination" against the Palestinians, while some 32% disagreed with such a statement.
In a first reaction, the chairman of Yad Vashem's directorate Avner Shalev said Tuesday that the poll's results, which he termed "very worrisome," were indicative of a long-suppressed felling of anti-Semitism among the mainstream "so-called liberals" population which now, under the coating of anti-Israeli criticism, are becoming legitimate again. He added that the poll's results, which he said any objective person would repudiate, are also the result of the release of pent-up feelings of guilt built up from the Holocaust.
"The energies which bring about such answers come to protect feelings of guilt," Shalev said. 62 percent of respondents in the poll said that they were sick of "all this harping" of German crimes against Jews, while 68% said that they found it "annoying" that Germans today are still held to blame for Nazi crimes against Jews.
The survey, which aimed to determine what is "the cut off point" between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, finds that while "classical" anti-Semitism in Germany is on the wane, secondary anti-Semitism, often couched in anti-Israel views are on the rise, especially among the Left.
The German researchers who conducted the polls conceded that the results showing a majority of Germans equating Israel's Policy with Nazi Atrocities "may be worrying," but concurred with Yad Vashem's Shalev that the media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinians conflict has made such analogies part of the public discourse.
"When you see an image in the newspaper, in a caricature, which is repeated day in and day out that Sharon is equal to Hitler than the image catches in your head because maybe you do not like Jews so much or maybe you hate Jews, and than this works out excellent," Shalev said, stressing that education of the young generation was the key to stemming such a tide.
In the survey, 82 percent of the respondents polled said that they are angered by the way Israel is treating the Palestinians, while 45 percent of those polled said that considering Israel's policies it was "no surprise" that people were against them.
The telephone poll of 3000 "non-migrant" respondents, which was taken in May and June, did not come with a margin of error.
"This is a very sad commentary about what is happening in Europe today which needs to send a very strong warning signal about how much work needed to be done to deal with these attitudes," said, Dr. Ephraim Zuroff, the Israel director of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center.
Due in part to its blighted history, Germany is generally considered to be one of the more supportive countries of Israel in Europe.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1102432932687
Anyone with some knowledge of historical antisemitism can see what's happening in Europe - again.
Those willfully blind, not so much...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)who is a member of the Rightist think tank the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
thanks shira
shira
(30,109 posts)We should expect more from the anti-racist left, shouldn't we?
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)nice spin control there, by the way:--a casual observer would almost hardly even notice that you weren't aware or concerned about the source prior to it being pointed out!
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)I suppose that "anti-semitic" canard has been overused to the point where it bears no bite, some new perjorative is needed for the bullying process.
That said, the rest of this is rather uninteresting drool; the goon is just pissy about not getting the press and attention he believes is entitled to him. These people are always so energetic about telling societies what is "wrong" with them, and somehow it always goes right back to "not liking us enough". At some point, don't the browbeaters realize that it is perhaps precisely such a shrill approach that may be resulting in the dwindling fan club membership? I suppose the zealotry shields their fragile psyches from such unhappy thoughts, so it is good for something after all..
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... then why bother mentioning it?
Methink thou dost protest too much.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)Personally, I find the dogpile effect most amusing:--it's like being hounded by a pack of angry...chihuahuas. The tactic is sound, but the net effect is just too goofy for words.
You feel I have run afoul of Gertrude's Law with this little episode? You think I'm a bully? That's probably true, I'm really not very nice.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... I would NEVER, under any circumstances, find you the least bit threatening or a bully.
I hope that makes you feel better.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)The only thing you could do right now that would be nicer is ask for my ID in a bar--this adorable little teddy bear never gets tired of that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Candor is always appreciated.
shira
(30,109 posts)More than a third of Norwegians believe that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is similar to how Nazis treated Jews, according to a survey of attitudes toward Jews in Norway.
The recent survey found that 38 percent of Norwegians feel that way about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. It also indicates that 25 percent of Norwegians believe Jews exploit the memory of the Holocaust to their own advantage and 26 percent think Jews “consider themselves better than others.”
Some 12 percent of the Norwegian population “can be considered significantly prejudiced against Jews,” according to the survey, which was published last month by the Oslo-based Center for Studies of Holocaust and Religious Minorities.
The survey said the prevalence of anti-Semitic notions in Norway is limited and comparable to that of Britain, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden.
more...
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/in-norway-38-believe-israel-treats-palestinians-like-how-nazis-treated-jews-survey-shows-1.436361
