Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumU.S.-Palestinian boy faces Israel trial for throwing rocks
Source: Reuters
By Noah Browning
OFER PRISON, West Bank | Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:14pm EDT
(Reuters) - A 14-year-old boy with dual U.S.-Palestinian citizenship went before an Israeli military court on Thursday accused of throwing stones at Israeli cars in the occupied West Bank.
The case has cast a spotlight on the hundreds of Palestinian minors detained by the Israeli military for stone-throwing. Human rights groups have condemned such jailings. Israel's military says the age of detainees is irrelevant when set against the fact that mass stone-throwing can endanger life.
Mohammed Khalak, his ankles shackled together just above his running shoes, was accused along with two other youths of pelting Israeli military and settler vehicles outside the village of Silwad.
The case was quickly adjourned until next week and Khalak's father accused the United States of not doing enough to help his son.
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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/11/us-israel-palestinians-prison-idUSBRE93A0RX20130411
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... besides the boy has an internationally recognized right to resist his occupiers (and the settlers who are colonizing his land), he is being shackled in a military court? He's also a US citizen, and our government doesn't seem to be intervening? What the fuck?
Mosby
(16,168 posts)People can be killed and have in the past.
Your not seriously saying that "international law" protects this kind of behavior?
In the US this kid would be facing attempted murder charges.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Mosby: Your not seriously saying that "international law" protects this kind of behavior?
You meant to say no child should endure such an ordeal..no child should be without legal
representation...correct? International law does not protect Israel from treating this
kid like this...or do you find the OP suspect of facts?
Mosby
(16,168 posts)But the notion that this kind of behavior is acceptable under "international law" is absurd. Surely you can see that.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)and not exclusive to international law..settlers kids are not treated in any such manner.
If you think war crimes charges against this kid are appropriate, I'd say you've lost it.
The entire case has been reviewed by his legal representation? Not according to this OP.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)I realize this is not part of the "pro-palestinian" narrative/talking points but Israel has legal authority to police the west bank and apply israeli laws, at least in area b and c.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)post..which crimes have been committed that you're applying this to?
At this point Israel is liable for that boy's welfare from the moment they took him
into custody. What laws do you believe allow this kind of treatment, it does not
happen to settlers children.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)or even Palestinian laws.
Theoretically, the martial law system that applies to Palestinians is based on Jordanian law circa June 1967, being the law in place in the West Bank when it was first occupied. But that is merely an artifice. The martial law that applies to a Palestinian is generally whatever a soldier or military "judge" sitting in a demountable cabin in a West Bank settlement intends it to be.
Jews are not subject to this martial law. If a Jew throws a rock at an Arab, a soldier cannot arrest him, since Jews are not subject to martial law but are accountable only to the police and Israeli civilian law. If a soldier wants to arrest a Jew for throwing rocks he must contact the border police, who may attend and arrest him.
If he wants to arrest an Arab he can simply take him, and detain him administratively for long periods if needed, as there are very few rights for a Palestinian within the martial law system.
Even a foreign civilian is not subject to martial law. If I were to travel to the West Bank and throw a rock, I would still be tried in an Israeli civilian court.
The only people who are subject to the martial law system operating within the West Bank are Palestinians. And unfortunately for this child, even a Palestinian with US citizenship is still a Palestinian.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)The kid is throwing rocks at military vehicles and settler vehicles who are occupying his land. Do you want him to throw roses?
And yes, I am saying international law protects his right to resist his occupiers. They are the aggressors. He is the victim.
Do you blame rape victims who are violent and aggressive with their assailants?
Also, people on the Palestinian side have been hit with rocks from settlers, notwithstanding also been shot.
shira
(30,109 posts)Rape victims have a right to lash out at innocents unrelated to their rape?
Seems this is what you're arguing.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Try again.
shira
(30,109 posts)...just interviewed @ DemocracyNow...
AMIRA HASS: Yeah.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: respond to this?
AMIRA HASS: No, I dont want to respond.
AMY GOODMAN: What happened? What happened to her daughter?
AMIRA HASS: She droveshe visited friends or family in one of the settlements in the West Bank, and while they were driving back home, some kids from a village are said to have thrown stones, and one hitone hit her. She made a turn, and she bumped into a truck, and they were wounded, yes.
I dont think I have to respond to this. Its her pain, and I dontlike, people could come and bring the stories of hundreds of Palestinian children who are killed and wounded by Israeli [inaudible], by Israeli bullets and by Israeli tear gas and, I dont know, whatever. Im against asymmetry. And I think that I explain very well in my article the differences and the distinction that one has to take.
But the fact is that IsraelisI mean, that we maintain our hegemony with the use of almost unlimited powerI mean, with unlimited institutional power against the Palestinians. And Palestinians have tried many waysdiplomatic ways and other waysto resist this Israeli domination, and it has not succeeded. Stone throwing is a sort of a message, and the Israelis dont listen to it. Twenty-five years ago, with the First Intifada, Israelis did listen to this message. I mean, they did understand that this is a message ofits not in order to kill, its not in order to hit somebody, but its in order to tell: "You are unwelcome visitors in our midst."
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/4/10/israeli_journalist_amira_hass_on_palestinian_resistance_peace_talks_and_us_foreign_policy_pt_2
So a 3 year old toddler victim of a stoning attack is fighting for her life right now. You seem to agree with Hass that such an attack and its outcome is a legal right. You support this.
How am I wrong?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)No where did Hass say she approved she said she didn't want to discuss it, maybe in a not sidelining the conversation sort of way? However will you answer this, why are settler kids not arrested for doing the same thing?
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)your condemning her for what she didn't say?
shira
(30,109 posts)...the distinction she makes b/w legit targets of "resistance" vs. illegitimate ones but she chose not to do so. She displayed zero sympathy for the 3 year old toddler.
Her response was inhumane.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that's rather for it or against it IMO
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)They are not subject to martial law. Palestinians are subject to martial law. Segregation in applying laws, while not only a problem for the Israeli occupation, but is part and parcel of apartheid in practice. Israel doesn't want to let the land go, nor make the Palestinian equal citizens to which one set of laws would apply to everyone. Israel is caught in a catch-22, and is her own worst enemy.
It's tragic for everyone involved.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it's IMO classic apartheid too
btw the term apartheid was coined in 1947 it's an Afrikaans term
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 06:10 PM - Edit history (1)
... that imply my putting forward an argument I actually haven't put forward - the very definition of a straw man.
You introducing Amira Haas, notwithstanding.
shira
(30,109 posts)....who is now fighting for her life? Do you condemn such an act against innocents?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Now, that I've entertained your straw man, I hope you are bright enough to see the distinction from which I made my original post.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)but you still refer to them as "innocents" and to Palestinians as "terrorists".
Says a lot about your thinking I guess.
shira
(30,109 posts)...are wrong and criminal. However, it's only your fellow advocates who are endorsing it against Israeli civilians.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)by their actions (or more precisely, their lack of action) does in fact endorse stone throwing by settlers against Palestinian civilians:-
http://www.yesh-din.org/infoitem.asp?infocatid=272
Indictment: settlers attacked Palestinian boy, beat him, threw stones at him and set their dog on him
Yesh Din: Israeli civilians commit acts of violence against Palestinians in the West Bank every single day. The IDF and the Israel Police do not provide the necessary protection to Palestinians attacked by Israeli civilians. Israel is the occupying power in the territories and therefore is responsible, under the provisions of international humanitarian law, for the safety of their residents.
In October 2011, an 18-year-old boy from the town of Halhul, near the settlement of Karmei Tzur, was the victim of a vicious attack by settlers outside the settlement. The incident occurred when the boy set out to graze his flock on land near Karmei Tzur. A group of settlers with a dog came to the site, hit the boy, threw stones at him and finally unleashed the dog and set it on the complainant and his flock. As a result, one goat died and others were injured. The assailants continued throwing stones at the car of another complainant from Halhul, breaking his windshield.
Yesh Din monitors the results of investigation files under the management of the SJ District Police (Samaria and Judea) into crimes by Israeli civilians against Palestinian civilians and their property in the occupied territories.
Since 2005, Yesh Din has monitored 869 investigation files processed by the SJ District. In 749 files, processing by investigators and prosecutors was completed and final decisions were made:
In 62 files, which is less than 9% of all the files in which a final decision was made, indictments were served against suspects.
Eight files were lost and never investigated.
Six hundred and eighty seven investigation files, more than 91% of all the files in which a final decision was made, were closed without indictments being served against suspects. Most files were closed due to investigative failure.
http://www.yesh-din.org/infoitem.asp?infocatid=272
This is the only record of a settler being dealt with for stone throwing. In the same time period 853 Palestinian children were dealt with for stone throwing, and 93% of them were given jail sentences.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)After all, there are Israeli settler/colonizers to defend.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)There is no international right for children to become soldiers. In fact it's illegal.
And it violates Geneva conventions to have either children or non-soldiers engaging in war.
Was this kid a soldier wearing a uniform? He's lucky Israel arrested him. Because he actually has NO rights doing as he was doing.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)And as such, Geneva conventions would not apply to a supposed official army employing children as combatants. This kid was acting of his own accord, against military and colonizing entities who are occupying his homeland. For that, international law affords him his rights to resist his occupiers.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)To start with, not being a soldier automatically means he abandons Geneva convention protections.
Beyond that, there is no actual legal right to violently engage occupiers which is not itself illegal.
It is often assumed that the right to self-determination gives peoples living under foreign military occupation an absolute right to resist against the occupying power. It is interesting to note, therefore, that nowhere in international humanitarian law (IHL) the primary body of law dealing with military occupation can such a right be found or even inferred. Moreover, certain IHL provisions actually seem to preclude a general right to resist occupation. For example, IHL gives an occupying power not only the right, but the obligation to ensure public order in occupied territory (art. 43 of the Hague Regulations), and authorizes an extraordinarily wide range of powers with which to do so including the right to detain people indefinitely without trial, subject to a right of appeal and periodic review (art. 78 Geneva Convention IV). Another indication that IHL precludes a general right to resist can be found in art. 4(A)(6) Geneva Convention III, which specifically withholds its protection from the inhabitants of an occupied territory who spontaneously pick up arms to fight off foreign invaders, even though it does protect inhabitants of a non-occupied territory who do so. Civilians living under occupation can be prosecuted for acts of resistance that are deemed disruptive to the security of the military administration (art. 64 para. 3 Geneva Convention IV), and they forego their protection from armed attack if and for such time as they take part in hostilities (art. 51(3) Additional Protocol I). In declining to recognize a right to resist occupation, the Dutch Special Court in Re: Christiansen noted, the civilian population, if it considers itself justified in committing acts of resistance, must know that, in general, counter-measures within the limits set by international law may be taken against them with impunity.
http://www.legalfrontiers.ca/2011/03/self-determination-and-the-right-to-resist-occupation/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I would like very much to see that occur..could bring much more US attention for this boy and
for all the other children in the same situation,
This is disgusting: Palestinians are subject to far more strict Israeli military law, which prescribes a maximum of 20 years for throwing rocks at vehicles though offenders usually receive much shorter terms.
Palestinians complain that they face regular stone-throwing by Israeli settlers and say that Israeli troops seldom intervene, even when they witness the incidents.
At the end of last month, Palestinian officials said two Palestinian schoolbuses were struck with stones by settlers, leaving seven children lightly wounded.
Israeli troops killed two Palestinian teenagers throwing petrol bombs at them last week, and popular resentment against the military and its detention system have stoked weeks of street protests.
"Look at this oppression - a big strong army has nothing to do but harass little kids? Is this justice? Is this peace?" said Ali Hamed as he watched his 16-year old son, Imad, another youthful suspect from Silwad, in the courtroom dock.
K&R
Response to Jefferson23 (Reply #2)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)It would be a legally complex issue, to be sure, but he wouldn't be tried for attempted murder. Let's leave the hyperbole out of this.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)Why does the status of the land matter?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)It's not within her jurisdiction.
Also, the internationally recognized status of the land as occupied, and his targeting military and settler vehicles, would preclude him from being tried for attempted murder in the United States. To be sure, it would be legally complex, but international law does apply, and he has the right to resist his occupiers.
Why would the US even touch that?
cali
(114,904 posts)about trying a 14 year old on a bullshit attempted murder charge. disgusting.
Mosby
(16,168 posts)For people who try to kill other people.
Disgusting.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)does that apply to settler kids who throw rocks too?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)a few years back there was a case of an American Palestinian family that visited the West Bank they were allowed to enter through Israel but once they were in the WB were told by the Israeli government they could not leave through Israel, they were in effect trapped in the WB, the American government did not help them either, eventually Jordan allowed them access via the Allenby Bridge which after a time Israel graciously allowed them to exit the WB through