Enlisting child stone throwers and soldiers is war crime

[shira]

As stone-throwing Palestinian children have been in the news lately it is relevant to observe that enlistment of children to carry out these violent acts is in effect no different than enlisting child soldiers, which is a war crime in terms of Article 8(2)(b)(xxvi) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The time has come to recognize that encouraging children to hurl stones and firebombs, as well as using them as human shields, as practiced by Hamas, cannot be described as anything but enlisting them to participate actively in hostilities and therefore a war crime.

The book The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation, edited by Zachery Lockman and Joel Benin, describes communiqués issued during the first intifada by the United Leadership of the Uprising. Communiqué No. 2 says: “O youth of Palestine, O throwers of incendiary stones, clearly the new fascists will be forced to admit the facts entrenched by your ferocious rebellion.... Intensify the use of popular means against all enemies beginning with the holy stones and ending with the incendiary Molotov cocktails.”

Stones and firebombs, even thrown by children, can cause serious and even lethal injury.

For example, according to a report by CIF Watch, rock-throwers caused the crash which killed Asher Hillel Palmer and his one-year-old son. Last December a rock struck a 12-year-old girl, breaking her skull and on March 14, 2013, a three-year-old girl was in critical condition and her mother and two sisters seriously wounded after a car accident caused by rocks thrown by Palestinians. The three-year-old was not breathing when medics arrived at the scene. Before the accident, a number of drivers reported rock attacks. A bus was hit with rocks and a man and a 10-year-old boy also were injured by rocks in the same area....

...more:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Enlisting-child-stone-throwers-and-child-soldiers-is-a-war-crime-309017

[PDJane]

1. And, of course, that's from the Jerusalem Post.

And, also of course, shooting and jailing those kids is not a war crime?

[shira]

2. Apparently, only the JPost knows enlisting kids as militants is a war crime....

You don't.

Or you just don't care.

[Agnosticsherbet]

3. If they engaged in a lethal or deadly attack, no it isn't a war crime to jail them.

though it is ethically and morally repugnant to do so.

[azurnoir]

4. There are regulations in international law about imprisoning the 'enemy'

especially when they are minors laws which Israel doesn't necessarily follow, such as transferring them from the West Bank to Israel

[Agnosticsherbet]

5. Yes, there are international laws about how prisoners in a conflict can be treated...

But it is still not against the law to arrest them, or shoot them if they use deadly force.

It is specifically a war crime to recruit and encourage children to do so. In that Hamas are war criminals.

[azurnoir]

6. so you are saying that Palestinian children would never ever throw stones at IDF

if it were not for Hamas encouraging them?

[Agnosticsherbet]

7. No, as the article pointed out, the Hamas leadership has called for children to do that.

So, along with the children who through really poor judgment decide to use deadly force in a conflict and get arrested or shot, which is legal because it is legal to shoot or arrest a combatant, you have an Hamas leadership who are war criminals because they called for children to do it, and recruited them to act as warriors. The leadership of Hamas did the same thing as Thomas Lubanga. You can support the Palestinian cause to gain their own country and still condemn Leadership who act as war criminals.

[azurnoir]

8. please here from your link and it's nice you admit that it is not solely Hamas :)

Mr. Lubanga, 51, who once led the Union of Congolese Patriots and asked every family in his region to contribute a cow, money or a child to his militia, will receive credit for the six years he has already spent in custody in The Hague. If he ends up in a European prison, his sentence could be further reduced if he is released on good behavior after serving two-thirds of his sentence, a common practice on the Continent.

what Hamas does is bad enough but I have never seen anything describing Hamas making a similar demand

[Agnosticsherbet]

11. Going back to the article. They praise children throwing rocks and called for more of the same.

That is recruiting children to act in a conflict.

It does't have to be "as bad" to be the same war crime.

Why do you think it is appropriate and right for Hamas to call for children to throw rocks and fire bombs at soldiers and civilians? I don't get why you are defending encouraging children to go out and die or be sent to prison. Why should Hamas get a pass? Is their cause so just it justifies anything?

[azurnoir]

12. why do you make false accusations

it couyld be taken as a sign of a weak argument or something, I never said it was okay, I said that these kids would most likely be throwing rocks with or without encouragement from anyone

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. The warcrime isn't throwing rocks, it is enlisting children to throw rocks.

It doesn't matter if they would do it of their own choice. Once Hamas praised them and called for more, they enlisted those children and others.

An adult who cares about children does not encourage them to become warriors. Hamas leadership committed a warcrime when they did that. You seem to be arguing that because some of the children chose to do this on their own, that its OK. Their leadership and government have no responsibility.

I am saying that when Hamas praised children for becoming child soldiers and called for them to do more, to commit acts of violence in an organized conflict, they enlisted him in acts of war and became war criminals.

[azurnoir]

14. no you accused me of saying that it was okay for Hamas to do that

something I did not say however if indeed Hamas is enlisting children to do this then yes it could be considered a war crime

[azurnoir]

9. article 8 in full

Article 8: War crimes

1. The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.

2. For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:

(a) Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

(i) Wilful killing;

(ii) Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;

(iii) Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;

(iv) Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;

(v) Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;

(vi) Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;

(vii) Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;

(viii) Taking of hostages.

(b) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

(ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;

(iii) Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;

(iv) Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

(v) Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;

(vi) Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

(vii) Making improper use of a flag of truce, of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy or of the United Nations, as well as of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions, resulting in death or serious personal injury;

(viii) The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

(ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;

(x) Subjecting persons who are in the power of an adverse party to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are neither justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the person concerned nor carried out in his or her interest, and which cause death to or seriously endanger the health of such person or persons;

(xi) Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

(xii) Declaring that no quarter will be given;

(xiii) Destroying or seizing the enemy's property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;

(xiv) Declaring abolished, suspended or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party;

(xv) Compelling the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war;

(xvi) Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;

(xvii) Employing poison or poisoned weapons;

(xviii) Employing asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and all analogous liquids, materials or devices;

(xix) Employing bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions;

(xx) Employing weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;

(xxi) Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(xxii) Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;

(xxiii) Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;

(xxiv) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;

(xxv) Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;

(xxvi) Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.

(c) In the case of an armed conflict not of an international character, serious violations of article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts committed against persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention or any other cause:

(i) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(ii) Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(iii) Taking of hostages;

(iv) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all judicial guarantees which are generally recognized as indispensable.

(d) Paragraph 2 (c) applies to armed conflicts not of an international character and thus does not apply to situations of internal disturbances and tensions, such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts of violence or other acts of a similar nature.

(e) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflicts not of an international character, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

(ii) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;

(iii) Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;

(iv) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;

(v) Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;

(vi) Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, and any other form of sexual violence also constituting a serious violation of article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions;

(vii) Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into armed forces or groups or using them to participate actively in hostilities;

(viii) Ordering the displacement of the civilian population for reasons related to the conflict, unless the security of the civilians involved or imperative military reasons so demand;

(ix) Killing or wounding treacherously a combatant adversary;

(x) Declaring that no quarter will be given;

(xi) Subjecting persons who are in the power of another party to the conflict to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are neither justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the person concerned nor carried out in his or her interest, and which cause death to or seriously endanger the health of such person or persons;

(xii) Destroying or seizing the property of an adversary unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of the conflict;

(f) Paragraph 2 (e) applies to armed conflicts not of an international character and thus does not apply to situations of internal disturbances and tensions, such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts of violence or other acts of a similar nature. It applies to armed conflicts that take place in the territory of a State when there is protracted armed conflict between governmental authorities and organized armed groups or between such groups.

3. Nothing in paragraph 2 (c) and (e) shall affect the responsibility of a Government to maintain or re-establish law and order in the State or to defend the unity and territorial integrity of the State, by all legitimate means.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm

bolded items are laws being violated by one side or the other in this conflict, this is not by any means a complete listing

[bemildred]

35. Which does raise the obvious question: why does Israel think it can bring this subject up and

not answer for it's own behavior?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

38. Becasue they are the victims, or so we are told

on a daily basis here. It's strange how somebody can consider themselves the victims while clearly victimizing others.


It's like a mugger crying foul against the mugee fighting back.

[bemildred]

39. Well, they are, it just does not give them the right to victimize others.

It's a shitty situation, everybody is a victim of it in various ways. I blame the Israeli government, they have the power, nobody else does, it is their doing. I mean, I can sympathize with occupation troops, their ass is on the line, they will pay the price, not Bibi if they fuck up, they can be killed, they can be hurt, they can be kidnapped, they are compelled to be there, they do not matter either. But that does not mean they get off the hook for shooting some photographer in the face, for killing children who throw stones, etc. etc.

[shira]

40. Depends on your view as to how Israel is victimizing others...

For example, what you try to see as war crimes when Israel attacks Hamas in Gaza is also arguably the greatest attempt in the history of modern warfare to protect civilian lives.

The charges coming from the anti-Israel hate contingent are subjective and mostly baseless.

[bemildred]

49. So you think it is just a matter of opinion?

Like "more taste" or "less filling"?

[shira]

50. It's political. You know it.

It's why there are no reports now about human rights violations or war crimes going on WRT France in Mali.

You don't think France is doing anything wrong there?

You can't be that naive.

[bemildred]

52. You think politics is not about opinion?

I'm sorry, I am not about to defend France from war crimes accusations, they are not as bad as the Brits, but they have plenty to answer for in that department.

[shira]

55. Of course it is! That's the point. And the UN is as political as it gets. n/t

[bemildred]

57. So basically this is all bullshit? War crimes is bullshit? nt

[shira]

59. To call or not call actions war crimes is political and bullshit....

So it's bullshit when Hamas and the PLO are never accused of war crimes WRT child militants.

Now WRT Israel, to make a rush to judgment about their actions in battle (calling them war crimes) w/o regard to intent, is of course bullshit too.

[bemildred]

61. Thank you for explaining. nt

[azurnoir]

48. well in this case I think we're supposed to focus on this

[bemildred]

53. Think of the children?

I don't have my sound hooked up here. (Sheepish grin.)

[azurnoir]

58. close :)

no sound really? oh may computer does double duty as a stereo/radio now I must go and change whats playing my son 'treated' me to some Sepultura and in my old age that stuff starts to grate the nerves after about the 4th song

[bemildred]

62. It's a long story.

I went deaf on the right side some years back, and I found I like it, the quiet, so when I hooked this computer together last time I did not bother, as the drivers and such are a pain. I have an MP3 player for when I want noise.

My sympathies, life smoothed out when they were all gone (and once you let them go).

[azurnoir]

64. it's that last part

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:39 AM - Edit history (1)

in parenthesis I fear having a problem with my oldest is 35 and my youngest 16, I ;ve actively been someones mom forever ya'd think I'd get tired of it or something

[bemildred]

69. It's an adjustment. I know what you mean.

I've been doing a lot of "adjusting" the last ten years of so, six years since the last moved out, around three since the training wheels came off for good, but I seem to have come out the other side. So, allow me to encourage you , it's worth it, or at least it can be. My wife and I had to re-negotiate things too, both of us had to change our ways, but we are happy.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

75. Death metal? Cool.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. Is shooting Palestinian children in the back for sport a war crime,

or do you consider it a day at the circus?

[shira]

15. Do you feel that's what the IDF does routinely, for sport? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. What other reasoning would you give for shooting somebody, a child,

in the back? Revenge? Ethnic cleansing?

[shira]

17. I didn't ask about a particular soldier, but the entire IDF....

Is that what you think the IDF is about?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. How many Palestinians have been shot by the IDF recently?

How many more have been arrested by IDF on baseless charges?

How many more Palestinian's land has been confiscated by the IDF for security special zones?

Is that what you think the IDF is about?

[shira]

19. That's what I thought. You're a lost cause. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

20. So you can't answer the questions?

Quelle surprise.

[shira]

21. Your slimy defamatory hate isn't worth responding to. n/t

[Jefferson23]

22. What nonsense..you know you can always check with a human rights group

for the answer. You prefer it appears, not to do so.

The answers exist.

[shira]

23. His questions are bullshit & moving the goalposts....

First he writes about IDF shooting kids in the back and then switches to bullshit about baseless arrests and the killing of (presumably) innocent Palestinians.

It's just one steaming pile of baseless accusations after another.

You're no different.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. I answered your question, and it really hurts. doesn't it?

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I didn't ask about a particular soldier, but the entire IDF. Is that what you think the IDF is about?

Talk about moving the goalposts. You have the goalposts on a constant conveyor belt.

The question doesn't have to include the entire IDF (sweet god of goalposts) as you assert, but enough of them to give he entire organization a black eye. Under you argument if 80% of the IDF is bad then it's not the "entire IDF."

Hey, but speaking about the IDF shooting Palestinians. here you go!

http://972mag.com/photos-palestinian-photographer-shot-in-the-face-by-israeli-troops/68897/

PHOTOS: Israeli troops shoot Palestinian photographer in the face

At about 5:30 p.m. Monday, Israeli soldiers entered Aida Refugee Camp through a gate in the separation wall dividing Rachel’s Tomb from Bethlehem. There were no clashes at the time, and their presence in the camp was not provoked, but was itself a provocation.

Mohammad Al-Azza began photographing the advancing soldiers from the second-floor balcony of the Lajee Center, a children’s center near the camp entrance where he has long volunteered in the media unit. He was eager to use the center’s new camera, a Canon 600D with a 50-250mm zoom lens.
---
As he was photographing, one of the soldiers shouted at him in Arabic to “Go home!” Mohammad replied, “Why? I’m only taking pictures!” The soldiers continued shouting at him, “Go inside! Go inside!”
---
About 10 minutes after Mohammad had exited the balcony, a soldier with a tear gas gun shouted again at Mohammad to stop taking photos through the partially opened door. His final photo, above, shows a soldier aiming an M16 rifle outfitted for rubber bullets. As Mohammad turned to leave the doorway, this soldier fired a rubber-coated steel bullet which penetrated Mohammad’s cheek below the right eye and fractured his skull.

Oh and BTW: This happened on, yes you guessed it, Yom ha-Shoah. Who are the victims, who are the aggressors?

Chew on that if you dare, Shira.

[Jefferson23]

25. I thought you were not answering him because you knew the answers were

unflattering for Israel. Baseless accusations, moving goal posts..hmm, really?

The human rights groups have the answers for you, any time you're ready.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

26. Stop hyperventilating and making crap up.

Nobody believes your goalpost moving horse turd of an argument.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. I'm not sorry to have to call you on the mat on this, but

that was either a blatant lie or Freudian schlep by you, Shira.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113439081#post18

I never mentioned killing in that post. Shootings, yes.

But thank you, thank you, thank you for interjecting your doubt on their presumable innocence.


You certainly should ask to take up a position with the IDF PR department for all their future dealings with those non-existent shootings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/20/israeli-army-discharges-soldier-hebron

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinians-one-killed-several-wounded-by-idf-fire-on-gaza-border-1.480092


Want more? There's lots more. Beg me to post them.

[shira]

28. Look at the OP above, and look at how your slime derails just about every thread....

...the same way.

You know, if the IDF was as evil as you advertise, then the Palestinians wouldn't push their own kids into goading IDF officers...

Hamas wouldn't call on Palestinian women and children to rush to rooftops of buildings to act as shields against IAF attacks vs. terrorists....

So what this shows is the opposite of what you assert. That the Palestinians actually trust the IDF not to attack them. So the Palestinians themselves prove they trust the "evil" IDF not to attack innocents. That's not to say the IDF is perfect, but can you imagine foreigners trusting US troops the same way the Palestinians trust the IDF?

Tell me, what's the cognitive dissonance doing to your brain right now?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

33. My post was that you were lying about what I wrote, and you did.

As I can see you continue to move the goalposts, while blaming others of the tactic, and try to run away from it with more of you old rerun BS.

Thanks for remaining true to your form.


I will give you room for retraction, though, and you can always confirm that I never mentioned shooting deaths as you asserted wrongly.

[shira]

41. If Israel were as bad as advertised, then how is it Palestinians.....

....are more trusting of the IDF than you let on? After all, it's not natural for innocents to deliberately put themselves in harm's way in order to goad or provoke an enemy army into reacting. But this happens constantly.

What's your answer to this?

I predict silence....

Crickets.



Same lame shit as always from you and your lot.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

68. Why are you trying in vain to change the subject away from you lying about my post?

My post was asking why you found the need to lie about what I had written?

So? Do you want to retract what you accused me of writing when I didn't?

[shira]

70. LOL @ your lame attempt to accuse the IDF of shooting at civilians....

...of course, without intent to kill.



You were thrown out of clown school, weren't you? You couldn't cut it?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

71. Project much, Shira?

First he writes about IDF shooting kids in the back and then switches to bullshit about baseless arrests and the killing of (presumably) innocent Palestinians.

I didn't write anything on that. Those are your words. Wishful thinking on your part perhaps?

[Mosby]

44. the expression is "freudian slip" not shlep, lol

English not your first language perhaps?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

66. No f*cking kidding. Really?

Go take a nap. Okay?

[Mosby]

73. you're the one that can't spell "slip"

Maybe you need a nap, lol.

I've been working all day, doing just fine thank you.

Do you work daneel? Or is this work for you?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. "I've been working all day, doing just fine thank you."

Apparently not.

[Mosby]

76. your weird dude.

Hopefully someone understands you because no one here does.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

77. Weird? No, I just don't bite on simplistic taunts.

[bemildred]

34. Pretty much, yeah.

It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it's likely to be a duck.

[shira]

43. Then how do you explain Palestinians pushing their kids....

...to goad IDF soldiers into reacting violently against them?

How do you explain Palestinians of all ages running to rooftops in order to be human shields against IAF air strikes vs. terror targets?

=======

Isn't it obvious the Palestinians trust the IDF to protect them a lot more than what you're letting on?

=======

Besides, what other people do this vs. an enemy army?

[bemildred]

51. Right, so nasty of them to deliberately make such good targets.

The other side of that is whining about cowardice if they hide.

They want to make Israel commit war crimes, it's a strategy, don't take the bait.

No, they expect to be shot at, by simple observation, that's the idea. Resistance is not about staying safe.

It's common as dirt actually.

Pretty much anybody who feels oppressed and with no better weapons. Look around, read about something besides Israel. The Venezuelan opposition for example has used similar tactics on many occasions. You get whomever it is to over-react and then you use that to discredit them.

[shira]

54. The people running to rooftops aren't suicidal...

They expect the IDF not to shoot when that happens.

The tactic is so good it's been repeated.

If it were any other army, that wouldn't be happening.

[bemildred]

60. No, the odds are not that bad, really.

Even in a real war, most soldiers don't get killed.

Actually, like I said, it's common as dirt. If your LEO and military are proceeding on any other expectation, they are incompetent. It's pretty much how "low-llevel warfare" works, there is like a scale that starts with kids throwing stones and it goes up from there. The cutoff for "real" war, is, or used to be, the presence of large military formations and maneuver of those.

But any unwanted occupier will face this sort of thing, or more, and often welcome ones will too.

[shaayecanaan]

29. but only when the Arabs do it, I presume

and not when settlers throw stones at Arabs, with soldiers standing by their side to make sure that the Arabs dont throw any back. Is that terrorism as well, or is terrorism only what Arabs do.

[shira]

30. Then enlisting children for combat is not a war crime to you. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

32. Ah, the usual semi-literate, gibbering bullshit from you...

So when the Arabs throw stones its "terrorism", "war crimes".

When the settlers do it...silence.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

37. Exactly.

Is outright lying, deflection and ignoring direct questions considered a liberal value?

[shira]

42. It's a war crime for both. The difference is that you don't see Israel's supporters.....

....defending settler actions vs. Palestinians as we see when you and your lot do WRT Palestinians throwing stones. Israel's government and society doesn't encourage or glorify it either like Palestinian leadership and their culture does.

Big difference, dont'cha think?

[azurnoir]

45. No we see them burying any mention of it :)

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

65. And yes, folks we have a winner.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. Try answering the question, caitiff.

[Mosby]

46. when posters resort to personal attacks

It usually means they got nothing of substance to say, which pretty much sums up your "contribution" here at DU.

Pathetic.

[King_David]

47. +1

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. She can run or she can answer the question.

I'm sure that there will be plenty of posters that will see the former as virtue.

Seeing what I have written is mild in comparison to Shira calling others bigots or coming close to calling them anti-Semites. There's always the intimation of those things if you want to talk about pathetic.

[Jefferson23]

31. This OP is without any links to what Levy and B'tselem have said, their words.

Also missing is any report by B'Tselem on the issue of how Israel conducts itself and
where is the information coming from that Hamas is recruiting the children..and if true, which
children. All of the children arrested in the middle of the night are human shields for Hamas? How
is this determined and by whom? The interrogation of Palestinian children without their parents
present and without legal representation have given confessions...these confessions are and should be
suspect to anyone interested in upholding the law.

Only one Palestinian minor acquitted out of 835 charged with stone-throwing in past six years
Published:
18 Jul 2011

New B'Tselem report reveals for the first time official data on treatment of Palestinian minors in Israeli military court system in the West Bank: 93% of all minors convicted of stone throwing were given jail sentences. This includes 19 children under age 14, who under domestic Israeli law could not be held in detention.

The rights of Palestinian minors who are suspected of stone-throwing in the West Bank are violated severely throughout the criminal justice process. These are the finding of No Minor Matter, a new B’Tselem report, published today (Monday, 18 July).

The report brings, for the first time, full official data on Palestinian minors tried for stone-throwing in the past six years, and is based on dozens of court cases, and on interviews with 50 Palestinian minors who had been arrested on suspicion of stone throwing, and with defense attorneys.

http://www.btselem.org/press-release/2011-no-minor-matter



No Minor Matter: Violation of the Rights of Palestinian Minors Arrested by Israel on Suspicion of Stone-Throwing, July 2011

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/2011-no-minor-matter


26 Sept. '11: Israeli father and infant son killed in car crash caused by stone-throwing

This is not the first time that stone throwing has resulted in death in the West Bank. Over the past decade, B'Tselem has documented two other cases of this kind:

On 14 November 2000, Mustafa Alyan, 47, a resident of the ‘Askar refugee camp in Nablus District, was killed when he was hit in the chest by a rock thrown at the car in which he was riding.
On 6 June 2001, Yehuda Shoham, an infant from the settlement of Shilo, was killed when struck in the head by a rock hurled by a Palestinian. He died a week later.

It goes without saying that intentional attacks on civilians are a crime and the police must act to bring the perpetrators to justice, in accordance with due process and protection of the suspects’ rights.

http://www.btselem.org/israeli_civilians/20110926_father_and_son_killed_in_car_crash

[shira]

67. The links are in this open letter to Levy and B'tselem from last week...

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/open-letter-to-btselem-spokesperson-sarit-michaeli-and-to-haaretz-columnist-gideon-levy/

[Jefferson23]

72. Thank you.

I imagine Levy will respond..and it is not clear to me why this man can not
answer his own question.

He is suggesting the children b/c they raised their hands were carefully selected to be rounded
up by the IDF?

Why is he not concerned about all the reports B'Tselem has done on this subject?

[libodem]

56. .

Where is God the omnipotent, when you need her. I hate this conflict. I hate it.