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What Does It Mean To NOT Be A Girl? Everything, apparently. (Original Post) ashling Apr 2013 OP
Who told me sexist crap about how subservient women were supposed to be? Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #1
actually, I learned a lot helping in the kitchen RILib Apr 2013 #2
My mom made sure that ashling Apr 2013 #10
You blame women exclusively for perpetuating a cultural bias against women? Fridays Child Apr 2013 #3
Actually... pipi_k Apr 2013 #5
I got that from my grandparents RILib Apr 2013 #6
I am a dedicated feminist, but there is a point in there that's worth examining. Squinch Apr 2013 #7
No, I am blaming the women in my family in particular, for telling me how to act. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #14
if you were old enough to be in college RILib Apr 2013 #18
I think you missed the point. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #21
My mom was not pipi_k Apr 2013 #29
Did you see Bill Maher last night? ashling Apr 2013 #8
My Mom was the one who taught me and my sisters to be independent csziggy Apr 2013 #11
I don't even understand this dated sexism. Nothing sexier to me than a smart confident woman. nt Locut0s Apr 2013 #25
We grew up with very different female role models mythology Apr 2013 #28
I heard all the same shit too. It's a boomer phenomenon... pink-o Apr 2013 #32
Perfect! In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #4
I think little girls are the essence of perfection. nolabear Apr 2013 #9
Some people get this right even coming from a "traditional" position as in My Big Fat Greek Wedding alphafemale Apr 2013 #12
My daughter went as Janet Reno for dress up day for school once. alphafemale Apr 2013 #13
That is awesome, though. Janet Reno. I love it. Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #15
She's 26 now...and still pissed about it....when I remind her. alphafemale Apr 2013 #17
I got another one for you. Brigid Apr 2013 #20
did you say..."The Oompa Loompa" alphafemale Apr 2013 #24
Just as bad... pipi_k Apr 2013 #30
At the same time I was told that they would send me to college and grad school. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #16
you seen to have some problems RILib Apr 2013 #19
Arguing with me at the dinner table? Verbal and emotional abuse? No thanks. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #26
Rotten food... pipi_k Apr 2013 #31
Too many other women ALREADY in the kitchen fixing food. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #22
That made my day! Xipe Totec Apr 2013 #23
Mom told Dad not to waste money on my education. As a girl I'd end up pregnant and quitting school The Flaming Red Head Apr 2013 #27
Good for you for being yourself! Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #33
 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
1. Who told me sexist crap about how subservient women were supposed to be?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:47 AM
Apr 2013

My mother and my grandmother. Not my dad or grandfather or uncles.

Women are the ones who pass on the sexism. Examples from my mother: "It's a man's world. Get used to it!" That was depressing as hell.

I was told I had to "flatter the male ego". "Don't beat them at games. Don't act too smart."

Well, why would I want to hang out with a guy who likes a stupid woman? I'm not stupid and I'm not going to be anyone's idiot.

They also tried to force me to fix food and put up leftovers, when there were too many women in a small kitchen to begin with. My grandmother, her sister, my mother, my aunt, my sister and my aunt's four girls.

I would tell them "You don't make the men do anything" and I was told "The men are too OLD to help in the kitchen". The men were watching football in the den. I would run in the den and my mother would SHRIEK at me to "COME HELP!!"

And I was given the attitude that mens' opinions are worth more than womens' opinions. You're supposed to listen to what men say even if they are flat-out wrong, like it's important.



And this was in a family where my mother, my aunt and my grandmother were all college graduates!!! My grandmother had a master's degree and she was born in the 1890s! But she was all about making the girls wait on the men.


 

RILib

(862 posts)
2. actually, I learned a lot helping in the kitchen
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:02 AM
Apr 2013

people not in the kitchen? their loss.

Of course, my Dad was in the kitchen too.

Fridays Child

(23,998 posts)
3. You blame women exclusively for perpetuating a cultural bias against women?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:03 AM
Apr 2013

And, in your opinion, men are not at all responsible for this view you hold of the world and women's place in it?

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
5. Actually...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:54 AM
Apr 2013

it looks like she's blaming the women in her family...not women in general.

I don't remember the teachings in my own family, to tell the truth, but I do recall that when my daughter wanted to quit school at the age of 16, it was my mom who said, "It's OK...she doesn't really need to graduate high school. She can just get married". And she was serious.

But then, she was born in 1934 and lived through a whole different time.

 

RILib

(862 posts)
6. I got that from my grandparents
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:56 AM
Apr 2013

My Mom had been denied going to college by them, so I never got that from her.

Squinch

(50,901 posts)
7. I am a dedicated feminist, but there is a point in there that's worth examining.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 09:00 AM
Apr 2013

I certainly don't think women exclusively perpetuated it, but it could not have been perpetuated without women, or more specifically, mothers.

I think the motivation started out long, long ago as honorable: women at one point in history DID need male protection to survive if they were to be able to raise children and stay safe from elements, animals and males from other groups. I think mothers, for millennia, have raised their daughters to maximize their ability to attract and keep a protector. More recently, till women had options to work outside the home, the protector was an economic necessity.

It is no longer the case that women need protectors, but the thought that they do is pretty deeply seated in our culture.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
14. No, I am blaming the women in my family in particular, for telling me how to act.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:21 PM
Apr 2013

Men are part of the problem too. I am saying that the men in my family were not the ones telling me to get in the kitchen and load the dishwasher, it was the women trying to oppress me.

My grandmother tried to make me peel tomatoes (she was too stupid to blanch them first) and chop up bell peppers and onions. I was allergic to all these foods but didn't know it yet. She tried to make me eat them. I refused. I knew not to eat them. We had pitched battles at the dinner table over crappy food I refused to eat.

She thought that I was supposed to know how to peel stuff just because I was a girl. I was not real good with a knife. I was in college at the time. I finally told her, "I'm sorry but we don't have courses at Trinity University in vegetable peeling."

That pissed her off but then she was a battleax.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
21. I think you missed the point.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:17 PM
Apr 2013

Too many women in a small kitchen who were already fixing the food. Did you read the list of relatives?

Food I was allergic to and would never in any circumstances eat.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
29. My mom was not
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:10 AM
Apr 2013

a great teacher, either.

In fact, I don't specifically recall her actually teaching us girls anything. Most of what I learned about cooking/housekeeping came about by accident, and I was well into my 30s before I figured most of it out.

What I still hold against her was how she would complain about us girls to other people...how we didn't do this or that to help out, and then the other person would berate us for not doing things we didn't know how to do. And she never defended us. Just agreed with the other person about how rotten we were.

If she expected us to do "women's work", she should have started with simple chores from an early age so that helping around the house would have been something we just did as a family unit because that's how families operate...everyone pitches in.

ashling

(25,771 posts)
8. Did you see Bill Maher last night?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:19 PM
Apr 2013

Nicholas Kristoff was on the panel. His book Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide talks about how this is true around the world.

csziggy

(34,131 posts)
11. My Mom was the one who taught me and my sisters to be independent
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:51 PM
Apr 2013

She taught us to never have to rely on a man to support ourselves, to be able to make our own living, to do our own repairs, to keep our own money, and to never give complete control of our lives to any man.

She also taught us to cook, to sew our own clothes, and how to clean house - not because they were things that women did but because they were things that saved money so we could be more self-reliant.

She never hesitated to give her own opinion and never discouraged us from having our own and expressing them.

She raised four, strong independent daughters. She didn't have a college degree even though she had been valedictorian of her high school class - she got a scholarship to nursing school and went there instead because she could work for part of her upkeep.

Mom - just turned 92 and still going strong!

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
28. We grew up with very different female role models
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:22 AM
Apr 2013

One of my mom's favorite phrases when I was a kid was "You don't have to have a uterus to do _____" fill in the blank with any traditionally feminine jobs like cooking or cleaning etc. She's also the one who taught me how to change the oil in my car. When she was 8 months pregnant in the dead of summer in Texas she was still hauling around 50 lb bags of horse feed because the lazy sack of crap she married wouldn't do it and the horses still had to be fed.

And my grandmother, while she loved a good dinner party, wasn't above handing me a box of Lucky Charms and a package of hot dogs when I would go visit so she didn't have to cook.

pink-o

(4,056 posts)
32. I heard all the same shit too. It's a boomer phenomenon...
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 12:01 PM
Apr 2013

The adult women around us were 2nd or 3rd generation removed from initial suffrage, so I guess the pendulum had swung WAY back the other way. I was also told that if you wanted something from a man, you never asked him directly, just used your "feminine wiles".

And these were Rosie the riveters, who then pretended to be helpless and weak when the menfolk came home from war! My own mother would point out women whom she thought were acting well and encourage me to imitate them! Apparently, my behavior was so unacceptable she even considered sending me to charm school. As it was, Girl Scouts in the 60s was all about teaching us our place. And remember Home Economics in High school?

Now, just about everyone knows my story: I was 6'1" tall by the time I was 14 in 1969. It was absurd for me to pretend weakness, and I've always been loud and opinionated. Nowadays a girl like me would have been thrown into every school sport; back then I wanted to be small and feminine. Echoes of those woman who'd coached me from childhood.

But my mom lived to be 82. By the end of the 70s she was making more money than my dad, and was all about empowerment. I'm still not happy with how women of her generation treated their daughters, but remember it was a different time and women had to go through men to get anything! We're still fighting the sexism, but at least mothers are not advising their girls to submit anymore.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
12. Some people get this right even coming from a "traditional" position as in My Big Fat Greek Wedding
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:18 PM
Apr 2013

So they say the man is The Head of the household.

The woman is the neck.

The neck turns the head.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
13. My daughter went as Janet Reno for dress up day for school once.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:25 PM
Apr 2013

And was really angry when she came home because no one knew who she was.... Even after she said. "I'm Janet Reno!"

blank stares "Who's Janet Reno?"

She was very angry.

Oh the thousand pricks of growing up in a knowledgeable, informed household.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
17. She's 26 now...and still pissed about it....when I remind her.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:05 PM
Apr 2013

Janet Reno.

And that rednecks didn't know who she was.


Brigid

(17,621 posts)
20. I got another one for you.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 10:13 PM
Apr 2013

I mentioned Boehner to someone not long ago, and the person I was talking to had no idea who.he was.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
30. Just as bad...
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:14 AM
Apr 2013

or maybe worse...

I have a sister who probably doesn't even know who the president is.

I'm totally serious.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
16. At the same time I was told that they would send me to college and grad school.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:24 PM
Apr 2013

All they told me was how smart I was.
I was not praised for being cute or anything else. Just being smart, reading way ahead of my grade level, and playing musical instruments.

I never understood how I was supposed to go to college and be smart and also wait on a man hand and foot like he was helpless.


 

RILib

(862 posts)
19. you seen to have some problems
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:24 PM
Apr 2013

just saying.

I'm probably violating du terms of service, but you sound like a pretty ungrateful hard to get along with kid. They were sending you to college and grad school, and you were having snits about helping in the house.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
26. Arguing with me at the dinner table? Verbal and emotional abuse? No thanks.
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 05:24 AM
Apr 2013

I wasn't "ungrateful hard to get along with".

Nobody should have to put up with the crap I was subjected to.


My mother and grandmother were busy putting me down and telling me I was a bad person. They tried to shame and guilt me for being different and a picky eater. I refused to be shamed by it. I said no and stood my ground.


They yelled at me for not eating their food which I was allergic to, and told me I was a bad person because I wouldn't eat their awful cooking. I refused to eat food my body would reject.

I was not going to slice my hands and injure myself with a knife. I was clumsy with a knife.
I'm a musician and I protected my hands from lots of things that could injure them.

Have you ever had a serious food allergy? I can smell foods I am allergic to and it makes me choke. Yes, literally choke. I have to stay away from people preparing those foods. Don't want to be around it. They told me I was a bad person for protecting myself from foods that made me ill.

They told me that my tea would taste exactly the same if I used saccharin instead of sugar. It did not taste the same. Abusers tell you that your perceptions are not real and not valid.
They were telling me my taste perceptions were wrong. That really messes with your mind.


The kitchen was big enough for one person to scurry around. With several people mobbing it, nobody could move around to do anything. And the breakfast table, big and round, was in the kitchen, as an extra obstacle. There was no reason for me to be in the kitchen when there were already too many people in there trying to move around and do things. More than one was too many.

The men never lifted a finger to clean a plate or fix food or load the dishwasher. They were not in the kitchen unless they were eating at the breakfast table, which was usually used for dinner and lunch as well.

Three times a day my grandmother bossed everyone around in the kitchen to cook and clean up like it was a prison. Low quality, badly cooked meat, two boiled to death veggies, usually horrible boiled greens, iceberg lettuce for salad and a dinner roll. Or metallic tasting black eyed peas. Bad Southern cooking. Along with a speech about how healthy the stuff is and all the vitamins it has in it. Whereas my dad and I said, "How does it have any vitamins in it since you boiled it to death?" Grandma got mad and stayed mad because she was a professional home economist & could not stand to be questioned. She criticized everything I did while I was there.
I hated seeing the grandparents.


My mother and grandmother, the ones criticizing me, were not paying for my college.


My dad was paying for my college. He never told me anything sexist. My mother and grandmother were the ones trying to oppress me by telling me to be subservient to men.


I was in my twenties when I found out raw spinach and broccoli are good. I had never had those foods before then.

I was twenty one when I had Chinese food for the first time.

I was in my late twenties when I had Japanese food for the first time.





pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
31. Rotten food...
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:25 AM
Apr 2013

my mother was a terrible cook.

She had no problems using ground beef that had turned brown on the outside.

Grilled cheese...flattened to the thickness of about 1/2".

Scrambled eggs cooked so long they were dry and had a brown crust on the bottom.

Spaghetti with sauce...it was actually cooked spaghetti added to tomato soup.

First time she tried to cook Rice-a-Roni, she burned the stuff.

Then there was the time she made up this concoction of tomato soup mixed with cooked hamburger, poured over mashed potatoes (I think I was about 7 or 8). I told her I couldn't eat it because it would make me sick. She told me I'd better eat it... I tried some and promptly vomited. I was a bad kid for puking.

Needless to say, I was a very thin child.



 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
22. Too many other women ALREADY in the kitchen fixing food.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:21 PM
Apr 2013

There was not enough room for all those women to work in the kitchen.

Did you read the list of relatives already in the kitchen??
Grandmother, mother, aunt, grandmother's sister, my sister, my aunt's four girls.
That's NINE women not counting me, in a small kitchen that can't hold them all.

Besides, I wasn't eating the lousy cooking. As I said, we had arguments at the table because I refused to eat food that would make me gag. I was also allergic to a lot of it, although I didn't know that at the time. I knew I had to avoid it and it would make me sick.

The Flaming Red Head

(1,805 posts)
27. Mom told Dad not to waste money on my education. As a girl I'd end up pregnant and quitting school
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:06 AM
Apr 2013

My parent's excuse for not putting anything toward my education and refusing to even help me with my homework was that I was a girl (and a trifling girl, according to my Mother and not at all worth their time), My Mother still talks about how I write what she calls that weird stuff. She's even asked at a Mental Health Center if there are any medications to cure me of my writing addiction, especially that stuff she calls weird like poetry that doesn't rhyme, and my short stories, and essays that talk about living in poverty, casual sex, and occasional drug use. It pissed her off when I was able to put myself through college and while I was there I was surprised that my professors actually liked my work and gave me As and invited me to readings at campus parties and art galleries. When I get published , or something I wrote is mentioned by other writers, and I'm invited to attend and speak at writers conferences and participate in workshops and readings my Mom still doesn’t understand why anyone likes me or anything I do. Because to her somehow I am not as good as my brothers, she still says I am good for nothing, that I am trifling and I never will be, any good. Her sisters, my Aunts and my cousins on her side of the family treat me the same way my Mother does. I will not even go near any of them, anymore. I remember I wanted to go to an all girls school in our town that had excellent prep courses, advanced placement classes and who's student's were ready for and could get into just about any college. My mother told my Father not to waste his money on me, even though my Mom went to this very same girls prep academy, and so did my aunts and my cousins. It was all of them that ended up being the ones who got pregnant and married and didn’t finish their own educations. Mom even told my Father that I wasn't good enough to go to her school ,and anyway I was weird, so obviously I wouldn’t fit in there. My Mother and her sisters and my cousins hate me because I am not racist like them and they’ve seen me out on dates with people of other races, and also I’m bi-sexual, and I still have that habit of reading and writing weird stuff, which just galls the fuck out of them, and they know I’m pro-choice and believe in birth control and sex education. They believe in teaching abstinence, instead of sex ed and actually got paid for a while by the state and had state offices paid by the taxpayers to advance their conservative views. And they’ve seen me working as a clinic guard at the local family planning clinic. I blocked them (my Mom’s family) from entering the building and causing trouble when they stood on the other side with Operation Rescue and I told them, to go fuck themselves, and I and my comrades laughed at them going limp and being carried away by the police. (I finally gave them a real reason to hate me) Now, I’m currently happy being single, and I enjoy having a grown up son, and I like being able to live free life without their conservative rules and christian dogma, and I don’t want, need, nor seek any of their approval on anything.

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