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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:52 AM

Police seek tips to get AK-47-wielding gunman off the street

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

“We’ve already had one person killed and three others shot,” Homicide Unit Capt. James Clark said during a news conference Friday. “Quite frankly, we could have a lot more killed.”

In the first shooting, surveillance video shows two men walking near the corner of 7th and Venango streets shortly after 10:30 p.m. April 6. Another man, wielding what police say is an AK-47 rifle, runs up to the pair and opens fire, hitting both men. Tyrone Rosser, 36, was shot several times and later died at Temple University Hospital, Clark said. The second victim, a 42-year-old man, was treated for a gunshot wound to the leg and released.

Police said they recovered 22 high-caliber casings at the scene, and the shooter can be seen wildly continuing to fire the gun as he runs west on Venango Street and north on 8th Street.

“As he’s running away, he’s sort of just firing in the air, so he’s a very dangerous person,” Clark said. “We have to get him off the street as quickly as possible.”

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dncrime/Police-seek-tips-to-get-AK-47-wielding-gunman-off-the-street.html

121 replies, 18403 views

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Reply Police seek tips to get AK-47-wielding gunman off the street (Original post)
onehandle Apr 2013 OP
vt_native Apr 2013 #1
Crunchy Frog Apr 2013 #25
johnfunk Apr 2013 #26
Shadowflash Apr 2013 #2
Brigid Apr 2013 #20
jakeXT Apr 2013 #3
Downwinder Apr 2013 #4
Recursion Apr 2013 #5
tclambert Apr 2013 #6
Recursion Apr 2013 #23
UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #9
Recursion Apr 2013 #22
baldguy Apr 2013 #14
Recursion Apr 2013 #16
nevergiveup Apr 2013 #36
TrogL Apr 2013 #52
midnight Apr 2013 #7
Lordquinton Apr 2013 #111
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #8
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #37
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #39
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #41
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #44
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #45
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #56
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #57
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #65
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #67
mikeysnot Apr 2013 #70
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #72
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #90
Progressive dog Apr 2013 #102
Nika Apr 2013 #81
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #85
TheCowsCameHome Apr 2013 #10
formercia Apr 2013 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #42
NickB79 Apr 2013 #91
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #12
Recursion Apr 2013 #17
Schema Thing Apr 2013 #27
Paladin Apr 2013 #33
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #47
Paladin Apr 2013 #97
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #34
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #48
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #59
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #66
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #88
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #89
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #92
7wo7rees Apr 2013 #106
oldbanjo Apr 2013 #95
NickB79 Apr 2013 #93
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #43
BumRushDaShow Apr 2013 #60
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #61
klook Apr 2013 #13
jsr Apr 2013 #15
Recursion Apr 2013 #18
Crunchy Frog Apr 2013 #19
Recursion Apr 2013 #21
Crunchy Frog Apr 2013 #24
Recursion Apr 2013 #29
hack89 Apr 2013 #46
billh58 Apr 2013 #69
hack89 Apr 2013 #71
billh58 Apr 2013 #74
hack89 Apr 2013 #76
jpak Apr 2013 #28
Recursion Apr 2013 #31
baldguy Apr 2013 #38
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #50
baldguy Apr 2013 #51
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #87
mercymechap Apr 2013 #30
Crunchy Frog Apr 2013 #32
heaven05 Apr 2013 #35
Crunchy Frog Apr 2013 #40
heaven05 Apr 2013 #49
hack89 Apr 2013 #53
heaven05 Apr 2013 #54
hack89 Apr 2013 #63
billh58 Apr 2013 #77
hack89 Apr 2013 #79
heaven05 Apr 2013 #96
hack89 Apr 2013 #98
heaven05 Apr 2013 #104
hack89 Apr 2013 #105
heaven05 Apr 2013 #114
hack89 Apr 2013 #115
Hoyt Apr 2013 #55
baldguy Apr 2013 #58
Hoyt Apr 2013 #64
hack89 Apr 2013 #68
billh58 Apr 2013 #73
hack89 Apr 2013 #75
billh58 Apr 2013 #78
hack89 Apr 2013 #80
billh58 Apr 2013 #62
sofa king Apr 2013 #82
billh58 Apr 2013 #86
sofa king Apr 2013 #108
billh58 Apr 2013 #109
olddots Apr 2013 #110
A Simple Game Apr 2013 #99
sofa king Apr 2013 #107
heaven05 Apr 2013 #116
sofa king Apr 2013 #119
heaven05 Apr 2013 #120
TheCowsCameHome Apr 2013 #83
Sunlei Apr 2013 #84
drm604 Apr 2013 #94
mokawanis Apr 2013 #100
Duckhunter935 Apr 2013 #101
Lint Head Apr 2013 #103
struggle4progress Apr 2013 #112
freshwest Apr 2013 #121
struggle4progress Apr 2013 #113
wordpix Apr 2013 #117
harmonicon Apr 2013 #118

Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:55 AM

1. That's a Freedom lovin' 'Murican

We'll have to accept that he's just exercisin' his second amendment rights.

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Response to vt_native (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:47 AM

25. Tens of thousands of violent deaths and horrible maimings.

The price we have to pay to live in a free society, and we should all be glad to pay it.

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Response to vt_native (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:47 AM

26. Second Amendment Solution in action!

The proud gun owner must be a ture patriot. Cue Lee Greenwood:

"And I'm proud to be an Amurrikin
Where at least I know I'm free,
And some loon with a combat weapon
Can demolish you 'n' me..."

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:02 AM

2. Heh.



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Response to Shadowflash (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:37 AM

20. Saw a friend's kid do that once.

But the kid was two.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:06 AM

3. What was his star rating?

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Response to onehandle (Original post)


Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:09 AM

5. Is it an AK-47 or is it high caliber? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:46 AM

6. Bad editing I'm sure.

"Don't just say 22 casings there. Put in an adjective. Something scary."

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Response to tclambert (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:42 AM

23. If they just said "22 casings" I suppose I might have misread that for ".22 casings"

Still.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:58 AM

9. Good thing it wasn't really high caliber weapon.

 

That guy would be even more dead.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:41 AM

22. As it's written it sounds like there were two weapons

An "AK-47" (which in journalistese means an AK-74), and then some gun that fired high caliber rounds.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:03 AM

14. You seem to think the most egregious problem in this story

 

Is that the reporter doesn't get the trivial technical minutia correct enough to satisfy extremist RW gun losers. What you don't "get" is that part really doesn't matter.

Having a killer with an AK47, or one of it's variants, or any assault weapon of any kind roaming free IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:16 AM

16. The wording makes me think there were two weapons involved

Which would be worse.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #14)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:26 AM

36. Bingo!

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Response to Recursion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:13 AM

52. I thought an AK-47 was 7.62mm

What do you consider high-calibre?

I'm no gun nut. I spent a summer in the Canadian Armed Forces. We used the FN-C1 which used NATO standard 7.62mm rounds. Years later I picked up a German Mauser rifle for hunting that used the same calibre - I purchased .308 ammo, which seemed to do the trick.

When I was a kid, I went to live with a family in Quebec. They had .22 rifles they allowed us to shoot. They didn't have much kick, but they sure wrecked the hell out of tin cans. I googled ".22 facial damage" and ended up on a forum where somebody claimed that the story that a .22 will enter the head, then bounce around causing damage is false, but also noted that Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22 caliber Iver-Johnson Cadet revolver.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:59 AM

7. Here is a tip: I would start by looking into how many AK-47's were lost from fast and furious and

then go from there....

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Response to midnight (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:25 AM

111. You forgot something...

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:26 AM

8. US civilians buy more AK-47's than

Russian military and police. Shipped from Russia with only 10 round magazines but importers replace with 30 round to sex them up for the gun lovers.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:31 AM

37. US civilians cannot buy or own AK-47s

They own AK-47 like/or patterned rifles. Kind of like the M-16 and M-4 vs the AR-15. Semi auto and I know of no backup for your statement about the magazine size

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #39)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:44 AM

41. AK-47s are still not being imported, AWB not withstanding

Real AK-47s are true assault rifles (selective fire/full auto capable). The list for them has been closed for quite some time. What is being brought in (for now) are semi auto variants only. Many parts are also being made in the US because of 922r

Waiting for your source and wondering if its a credible one.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #41)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:55 AM

44. Full auto capable is not an assault weapon per the AWB definition

If you get to make up your own terminology for the name of a weapon, I can not supply a link.
It is an AK-47 per the NY Times and the manufacturer. It is an assault weapon per the AWB definition.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:00 AM

45. Actually that is not the way the AWB worked

It focused on cosmetic features. Even CA could not get that part straight.

Full auto is the requirement for an assault rifle. Assault weapons is a nebulous term based on cosmetic features that varies considerably from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

If you think the NYT is the standard for truth, then you have other much more serious issues.

Still waiting for your source. I assume at this point the comment about magazine substitution was false at the minimum

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #45)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:35 AM

56. The weapon in the original post is an AK-47 per the article

Fully automatic weapons manufactured after 1986 are not allowed for civilian use in the USA. So obviously to anyone who values facts, the AWB never applied to them. So even if you are technically correct, you are deliberately making a deceptive argument.
Gun worshipers can call their guns whatever they want, at least since 1986 they have been defined and understood by the general public as assault weapons. They can pretend that denial of what a law plainly defines has some sort of validity.
You are disputing magazine size, why do you care? Would you support limiting magazines for your modified assault weapon? Would you support removing "cosmetic features" from your modified assault weapon? If they're just "cosmetic features", you'd have no problems with that?
Did you see the video? That's a semi-auto, but it fires plenty quick, doesn't it? May be that was one of those regulated militia types.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #56)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:40 AM

57. The article is clearly incorrect is several respects, that is just one of them

Given the sources involved "professional journalists" that is not surprising.

I am pointing out the errors because on tech stuff, and guns are tech stuff, details matter. Facts are not deceptive.

Your retreat to ad hominems argument is noted

You inability to cite a source is also noted.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:10 PM

65. No inability, you know more about guns hooray

Ad hominems aside, I realize your technical knowledge about what guns should be called trumps the definitions written into law.
It's my turn to change the subject now.
So you would not deny that guns are designed to kill? I'm asking you as a technical issue.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:13 PM

67. Indeed they are

They can be used for good and bad, based on the intent of the wielder. That is why the issue is the person, not the firearm.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:29 PM

70. true It is the person...

because he would just used his rapid fire pocket knife to carry out this deed if the person did not have access to the AK-47

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #67)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:31 PM

72. So you fell that in a civilized country

self selected people should be allowed to possess devices designed to kill, and not expect limits on their killing efficiency?

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #72)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:59 PM

90. I feel that in a nation where there is a demonstrated inability to protect

its citizens from predators, that to take away the most effective means of defense is immoral. Yes there can be limits, but they need to be effective and rational and not impeded the effectiveness of self defense. I have no problem with UBCs and training.

The world record for revolver speed is 12 rounds on target in 2.99 seconds. The shooter is an expert. Yet Hinckley got off 6 rounds in 1.7 seconds, and he had marginal proficiency.

Check out the videos posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2697623

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #90)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:52 PM

102. "If a nation can not protect its citizens from predators"

100% of predators 100% of the time? What is a reasonable standard? Should handicapped citizens have less protection if they can't use a gun? What about children, should we have citizens who want to be armed contribute to a fund to buy guns for the unarmed poor? At what point does this type of argument become a call for anarchy and the law of the jungle?
Hinckley stopped when he emptied the revolver, how many more could he have shot with a 30 round magazine?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #45)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:46 PM

81. The M16A2 rifle I had last in the U.S. Army fired three round bursts

to help in the cause of conservation of ammo. That is not a fully auto weapon and I submit that is an assault rifle first class.

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Response to Nika (Reply #81)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:11 PM

85. That is still considered selective fire

and is indeed an assault rifle. It is also unavailable to civilians

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:24 AM

10. Call Wayne LaPierre. He's good at getting them on the street.

Maybe he can get them off the street, too.





























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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:28 AM

11. Probably an AK 74 or variant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74

It fires a '22' caliber round (5.45x39)

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Response to formercia (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:46 AM

42. Could also be a AKM-47 or equivalent

7.62 by 39 but semi auto only.

It could also be .22LR look a like. Seeing a lot of those these days and wondering why.

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Response to formercia (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:10 PM

91. I read it to say they found 22 shell casings on the ground

Which would make sense if he emptied most of the magazine. So, it could either be casings that are .22 in caliber (AK-74) or 22 shell casings of a larger-caliber rifle (AK-47).

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:58 AM

12. Here's another local article regarding ID as AK-47

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51679852/ns/local_news-philadelphia_pa/#.UXvKlt3myOQ

"It's a military eastern block assault rifle, commonly used by the Russians," said Lt. Joe Walsh, from the forensic science bureau. "Each rifle, each handgun, will leave identifiable marks on the cartridge casings that it leaves and also the projectiles that it fires out of the barrel."

Police used those identifiers to link the two crimes.


This shit has got to stop and these weapons need to be off the streets here in this city.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:18 AM

17. You'd feel better if it were the same rifle but looked more traditional.

That's the part that frustrates me.

Not that anybody loves the idea of people with rifles wandering city streets, but someone with a Mini 14 just doesn't freak people out as much because it's got a wood finish and a curved grip.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)


Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:08 AM

33. Quit whining. AK-47's and AR-15's have more than earned their unsavory reputations.


Their unsavory reputations are used as a marketing tool. And let's drop all the pretense here: there are PLENTY of people who love the idea of people with rifles wandering city streets---or people with rifles, showing up at department stores, or people with rifles, hanging out in areas where Democratic presidential candidates are speaking. But you knew all that, didn't you? You can be as frustrated as you want, but the fact remains: this kind of shit wasn't happening, back when the Winchester Model 70 bolt-action---wooden stock, low-cap magazine and all---was the go-to center fire rifle in this country......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:04 AM

47. So we put traditional stocks on them and everyone is OK?

That is what the AWB did...and the new failed attempt was little better.

That kind of shit did not happen was not driven by the firearm but by the individuals and society. Blaming the inanimate object is inane

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #47)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 04:50 PM

97. I'm not blaming the inanimate objects.


I'm blaming the ugly mindset which said objects reveal and encourage. The trend toward enthusiasm for firearms designed along the lines of military and law enforcement specifications is unhealthy---there's a shooting incident practically every week now which proves that. It's a perfectly predictable result of people favoring guns designed to kill people over guns designed for sporting purposes. If the Gun Enthusiast community continues to marginalize itself (see the rapidly hidden NRA Enemies List, for example), if Gun Enthusiasts continue to block the most moderate and common-sense control measures, there will be consequences. If the War On Terror has proven anything, it is that once the public gets scared, constitutional protections can get shoved to one side without much complaint. If the 1st, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments can be ditched to one degree or another, what's going to keep the same thing from happening to the 2nd, as well? The communication skills of Wayne LaPierre? The sophisticated world view of Ted Nugent? The calm, even-handed judicial temperament of Antonin Scalia? Lotsa luck.....

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:22 AM

34. Uh no

I'd "feel" better if ALL these fucking guns were off the streets of dense city neighborhoods.

I worked in this particular part of the city at one time almost 30 years ago, and like back then, it still has sharp neighborhood territorial lines. The particular crimes described in this story occurred right in a border area and it has been a known drug corridor for some time.

It's complete bullshit when people keep pontificating about "taking hunting rifles away" from rural areas vs what we city-dwellers face with ANY firearm in distressed urban areas in the hands of very very distressed people.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:05 AM

48. Solve the violence issue and that could become a reality

Until you do, do not expect those who need to defend themselves to disarm and be easy prey for the predators.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:54 AM

59. There was no "defending" here

These instsances appeared to be targeted, and in such a situation, innocents pay the price when caught in the crossfire. Ironic that one would promote a blood bath using irrational paranoia in order to promote gun worship.

Humans are inherently "violent" and there will be no "solving" of a "violence issue". One can only limit the damage.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #59)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:11 PM

66. Your solution would be banning the most effective means of self defense

which today is semi automatic handgun with a double stack magazine.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #66)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:45 PM

88. Your solution promulgates mass unintended casualties

as a result of of arming a desensitized and demoralized population where the morality of doing such is complete missing from the "more guns" argument.

Been there, done that, and plan to hit it from another angle.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #88)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:52 PM

89. Your view of the urban masses as a "desensitized and demoralized population"

is a best overly negative, and considering that the vast majority minority, some would wonder if there is a racial undertone as well.

Address the root cause and the violence will decline further and more importantly break up it's the generational nature.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #89)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:12 PM

92. Have you been to 8th & Venango?

Or 5th & Lehigh? Or Strawberry Mansion?

It's not "overly negative". It's the reality. I taught in schools in that area daily dealing with junior high and high school kids who lived there and died there. The "root cause" has been around for millenia in human societies. It doesn't go away nor is there ever a "quick fix" as history would indicate. There have always been "permanent" underclasses going back to the earliest human civilizations but in this modern society, the magnification of the distinctions between groups and proliferation of what have become weapons of mass destruction, have only made it worse than I expect any time in history.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #92)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:08 PM

106. It's a matter of life and death.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:54 PM

95. Very true

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:13 PM

93. Everyone knows pump-action AK's kill you less dead

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:47 AM

43. The Lt is talking out his ass or more likely the "journalist" is

not reporting the details correctly.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:57 AM

60. So you know more than forensic unit staff? Amazing.



The "FACTS" are that people are either DEAD or injured from firearms in a densely populated urban area and fellating a gun won't fix the problem.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #60)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:02 PM

61. I am tending towards the media screwing it up

Forensics LEO tend to speak very carefully and correctly, the political ones not so much.

Indeed people are dead and injured, that is a very bad thing. Address the real problem and not the inanimate object.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:59 AM

13. So just hand out AK-47s to every Good Guy in town, then.

Problem solved.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:05 AM

15. Here's a free tip: Grenade Launcher.

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Response to jsr (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:25 AM

18. The launcher itself is legal

Though it can run afoul of a state AWB. The grenades are highly regulated.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:36 AM

19. Yawn.

Is this sort of thing even a story anymore?

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:39 AM

21. Someone walking around with a rifle? Yes

That's very unusual; any crime committed with a rifle is.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #21)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:44 AM

24. Gun violence in general.

The minutiae is mostly of interest to the gun nuts. For the rest of society it's just gun violence, and people are probably just going to get used to higher levels of it.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:54 AM

29. Well it's much more rare than it was a generation ago

We should really be considering this in the context of the 60% drop in gun violence rates over the past 20 years. Stop assuming we're failing and look to whatever it is we've been doing correctly and reinforce that.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:01 AM

46. No - people have been getting use to lower levels of gun violence for 20 years now.

we are experiencing historically low levels of gun violence. We have cut our murder rate in half.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #46)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:27 PM

69. And that is because

of more guns being on the street? Are you seriously trying to persuade us that the NRA-induced proliferation of guns-for-profit is the reason for a decline in not only overall murder rates, but crime in general?

Could the reduction in world-wide crime be a result of better communications between law enforcement agencies, better kept databases of criminals and those who are known to possess arsenals of weapons, improved forensic science, better public surveillance (proliferation of cameras -- i.e. Boston), and any number of other reasons besides guns in the hands of "preppers?"

That dog don't hunt Bubba, and more guns does NOT equal less crime. That is a NRA-promoted bullshit myth, and we all know it. And yes, before you cry foul, I know that you did not actually say that more guns are the reason for reduced crime, but you and the rest of your Gungeon buddies imply this, and similar half-truths and outright lies, on a regular basis.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #69)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:30 PM

71. No - it is not because of more guns.

all we can say with any certainty is that more guns did not result in more gun deaths. Beyond that, gun violence is complex with many causes.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:34 PM

74. No, you can't say that

more guns did not result in more deaths, but you can use that bit of twisted logic if you want. Less gun deaths only means that for a combination of reasons, the overall all death rate has been reduced. There are more automobiles on the road, and automobile accident deaths are down as well.

Now go back to the Gungeon and preach to your choir.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:37 PM

76. Aggravated assaults are down too.

care to guess what the crime is when you shoot someone and they live?

I like it here. I am glad Skinner opened up GD.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:52 AM

28. This can't be. AK47s are not assault rifles and no crimes are committed using them

So we have been told.

No danger here.

Move along and pray to your guns.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:55 AM

31. Close

The AK47 is an assault rifle.

There are low-caliber "sporting" rifles that look like AK47s that the media insist on calling "AK47"s even though they police every incorrect use of the word "Xerox" or "Photoshop".

Crimes with them happen, but are rare; nearly all shootings are done with handguns, so a shooting with a rifle (deservedly) gets a lot of attention.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:34 AM

38. So, your major problem with the story isn't the incident itself, but the reporting of it.

 

You're not concerned that a killer is walking around with a high-powered rifle.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #38)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:07 AM

50. There is a someone with a gun doing bad things and this is a serious concern

Details also matter in this debate. Its a mid range semi auto at best. It could even be a .22LR, the article is that poorly written.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #50)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:12 AM

51. There is a someone with a gun doing bad things and this is a serious concern.

 

So let's ignore that and concentrate on whether the reporter is using the proper punctuation in the article.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:12 PM

87. I have commented on that elsewhere

while correcting the misstatements here and elsewhere

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:54 AM

30. If every person who lives on Venango Street and 8th Street

had owned a weapon (as suggested by LaPierre) that man would have been shot and stopped.

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Response to mercymechap (Reply #30)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:59 AM

32. Bodies piling up from "friendly fire".

But they all would have died in the name of freedom, so that would be OK.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:23 AM

35. like or agree

 

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:01 AM - Edit history (1)

with this statement or not. There is going to be a crackdown on all americans because of violence like this, Boston, Aurora, Newtown, Columbine and Gabby because I admire her courage and many more I can't think of at the moment. Watertown was a trial run.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:40 AM

40. A crackdown on Americans, but not on guns.

That would be an infringement on our liberties. All we have to do is to maintain this country as an armed fortress police state with our gun rights still intact, and we'll preserve our freedom forever.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:05 AM

49. you

 

are probably correct. All the millions of weapons will still be in the streets in the hands of.... I think murika is in for some bad times.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #49)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:15 AM

53. History would disagree with you

we have seen a steady decline in gun violence over the pass 30 years. We have cut our murder rate in half.

You have to go back 60 years to find a lower murder rate.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:33 AM

54. anything

 

you say. You're entitled to keep your head wherever it is.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:09 PM

63. I have hard facts on my side

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Response to hack89 (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:37 PM

77. And like the NRA

you attempt to use "facts" that do not support your assertions, and attempt to imply that more guns equals less crime. That NRA argument is so lame that it's becoming laughable.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #77)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:40 PM

79. I explicitly say that more guns DO NOT equal less crime.

my only assertion is that gun violence is at a historic low after decades of steady decline.

Relax - you are trying too hard to be outraged.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 04:46 PM

96. fine

 

whatever. you are entitled to keep your head wherever you want it, II. See ya. I just don't and won't believe it. Period.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #96)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 04:51 PM

98. So you think the FBI and DOJ are hiding the truth?

I love conspiracy theories. So tell me - why did Obama tell Holder to do this?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:41 PM

104. Head

 

stuck anywhere you please III. Look, there are just too many guns on the street, in the wrong hands. I don't care about your 'facts'. Period.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #104)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:46 PM

105. I doubt your personal fears are going to be sufficient to convince gun owners

especially if facts are meaningless to you.

But perhaps building up gun control cred is more important than working with others to get results?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #105)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:29 AM

114. you

 

don't have a clue. Do you? Whatever, you're entitled to keep your head inserted wherever you please IV. Sad, must be the lack of oxygen to the brain. Okay I'm finished with you.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #114)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:32 AM

115. Ignorance in the defense of a good cause is still ignorance

you said that facts are irrelevant to you. Why then am I supposed to believe your opinions on guns are shaped by nothing other than emotion?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #53)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:35 AM

55. Think how low it would be without all our guns, gun nuts, acceptance of all things guns, etc.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:43 AM

58. But, according to the DU's very own RW gun nerds, America is the most violent place in the world.

 

That's why they need their gunz. (But they're not afraid of anything. And don't try to tell them they are!)

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Response to baldguy (Reply #58)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:10 PM

64. It is funny when they say crime is decreasing, then in the next post they are encouraging arming up


for self-defense. If crime were zero, most of these folks would still need a pile of guns nearby to enjoy life.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #58)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:15 PM

68. No - most of us gun owners don't think that

we understand very well that America is enjoying historically low levels of gun violence. Which is why we don't share your fear of guns - we know we have never been safer.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #68)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:31 PM

73. See what you did there?

The post you responded to was addressed specifically to DU's Gungeoneer extremists, and you tried to turn it into a response on behalf of ALL gun owners. You do NOT speak for even a tiny percentage of American gun owners -- only the right-wing contingent from the Gungeon.

Half-truths and lies is all you gunners have Bubba, and they're getting shop worn.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #73)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:35 PM

75. Because for some here, any disagreement is extremism

You are a good example.

The funny thing is, you and I see eye to eye on most gun control proposals. Besides the AWB and registration, I bet you and I support exactly the same proposed gun control laws.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:40 PM

78. The only thing that

you and I have in common Bubba, is a membership to DU.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #78)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:41 PM

80. So you do not support universal background checks? ok. nt

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:02 PM

62. Oh just fucking wonderful.

Unless we can determine exactly what model of "precious" it was, and the exact caliber -- it didn't fucking happen. And besides, he was only exercising his Second Amendment rights to carry a gun, so deal with it you "grabbers."

(it's a shame that this tag is even necessary)

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Response to billh58 (Reply #62)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:59 PM

82. I care a lot about the details.

First of all, I care about the details because if the journalist screws them up, that's often all one needs to know about the other reported details in the story. It's like the rock star's bowl of M&Ms with all the green ones picked out--at a glance I can tell that the reporter fucked up, and now I have to ask what else the reporter fucked up.

Second of all, informed members of the public can make tactical decisions based upon what they know the other guy has. A full-auto AK-47 only puts the first three or four bullets in the target area; the rest are thrown off by the recoil of the gun, so if the chump is hosing entire clips, one can get up and run pretty much as soon as he starts firing and have a good chance of reaching cover farther away before he can reload. A semi-auto SKS, on the other hand, which is often confused with the AKs, theoretically fires all aimed shots, and breaking cover is very dangerous at all times. The "high" caliber (high by comparison to .25 and .223 rifles) 7.62 round can penetrate most vests, most cars, and the corners of some walls. Lower caliber rounds are just as deadly but deflect more easily, and thus more and different kinds of cover and protection might be able to be used.

Right now, based on this article, the public has no fucking idea what the shooter has or what he can do with the gun he has. That gives them no choices and fewer options other than "try to get away," which will kill them if they choose to try that at the wrong time, in front of the wrong weapon.

You wouldn't tolerate the press defining our President as a "Kenyan Muslim," so why in the hell would you tolerate the presentation of misinformation in a story that has a potential bearing on whether or not people live or die? You wouldn't, if it wasn't an issue that stepped on your ideological toes.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:11 PM

86. Someone used a rifle

to kill someone else on a public street. Do you think that I, or many other people besides fucking gun huggers, would give a rat's ass about the caliber or model of the rifle? Anyone on the street with a gun is fucking dangerous, and anyone with average intelligence knows that.

Do you really believe that the average American knows enough about guns to "make tactical decisions based upon what they know the other guy has?" You gunners slay me with your assumptions that the average American can tell the difference between an AK-47 and a DC-9, or even gives a shit...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #86)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:06 AM

108. At the time of that writing, the guy was on the loose.

What if you and I were together when we both ran into that guy?

I presume that your response to seeing him in the street would be to stand there, point, and shout, "that guy is fucking danerou---!"

Whereas mine would have been to wait for you to get shot, ascertain from the sound of the gunshot whether or not to use cars as cover (5.56 maybe, 7.62 no), saving me from the uncertainty of this poorly written news article.

I would still want to keep something that could stop or slow down the bullet between myself and the shooter as I tried to get away... like your wounded self.

So even though you're totally wrong, I would pick you up and carry you on my back to shelter, and then find aid for you, and save your life. That is, if the guy didn't shoot you again. In which case I would drop you, run like hell, and tell everyone I tried to save you, oh god! Why couldn't it have been me instead of him!

And this is the thanks I get, after all I've done for you? I saved your fucking life, man! Sheesh.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #108)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:32 AM

109. The only thing wrong with that story

is that I would never be seen in public with a hugger, so I guess that I am relatively safe...

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Response to sofa king (Reply #108)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:56 AM

110. I bought a sofa from you once

 

it wore out in a few paragraphs

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Response to sofa king (Reply #82)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:27 PM

99. I like you descriptions.

"informed members of the public can make tactical decisions based upon what they know the other guy has."


Isn't that sweet, you're talking about our militia, aren't you?

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #99)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:45 PM

107. No, I'm talking about my running ass!

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Response to sofa king (Reply #82)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:38 AM

116. geez!!!!!!

 

the ultimate apologist. "the first 3-4 on target"????What about the recipient(s) of those first 3-4 bullets. What if a person is infirm and can't run out of harms way? YOU DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE ABOUT THE INSANITY OF YOUR EXPLANATION and 'advice' for the average citizen. And I do have a fucking 'idea' of what I have seen and used. Wake up! smell the death, bubba!!!!!! I don't believe this???

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #116)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:09 PM

119. That's the fault of the average citizen, ain't it?

Look around you. There is almost certainly a firearm within 100 meters of you right now. Nothing you can do over the course of your entire lifetime will find and remove from circulation all of the hundreds of millions of guns in the US and the world. You will never live in a time or place in America where gun murder is not a possibility.

Never.

That's not because I'm fighting you--in fact I am not, but I don't give a shit what people like you think about me and I don't need to waste my time explaining myself to you. It is because the lifetime of a gun can be measured in hundreds of years, millions are already hidden away, and nobody will ever find them all. That is what is real.

What I am fighting is the pie-in-the-sky ignorance of people like you, who would rather not think about your own safety or those around you and instead dream of a day where guns don't exist and people don't go crazy--when in fact more guns exist now than six months ago and a hundred years' worth of ammunition has already sold out in the first four months of this year. Pretending otherwise is dangerous to you and me, because you'll have to give up all of your personal freedoms (the ones we have left, if any) to fight and lose the war on guns.

And, it makes all of us look bad, because your willful ignorance automatically excludes you and people like you from any serious gun control debate--and we need people like you on the gun control side. But you wishful thinkers out there need to become familiar with the facts and reality and details of guns if you want to control them. Otherwise you're parroting the logical disconnect of the knuckledraggers from the other side, and that is not cool.

I will say it again for your benefit: the problem of guns is never going to go away. The problem of crazy ass people is never going to go away. If your "solution" does not take into account those two realities, your solution sucks and I don't want to hear it.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #119)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:34 PM

120. trust me

 

you don't need to explain anything. I'm not fighting you. I just know that the gun huggers, that's you, are a big part of the problem and not ANY part of the solution. Pie in the sky? That's the lie that was sold to the slaves by the good christian slave holders. I know guns will NEVER be eradicated or separated from the EVIL that people are capable of. No pretending. I've handled weapons, maybe more years than you, protected myself with them more years than you, probably. Yet I am smart and experienced enough to know that GUNS ARE THE PROBLEM. The 2nd amendment NEVER gave us the right to own arms. I sense you are young. Hopefully, one day...nah I doubt it. And I will say it again, You are entitled to keep your head wherever you please V.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #62)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:02 PM

83. Well, this information is critical

to the gun humpers.

If innocents are being mowed down on a daily basis, and the humpers are armed to the teeth in self-defense, at least we can get the model designation and description of the weaponry correct.

We owe the victims no less.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:10 PM

84. moron is coming out of one of those close houses to play with his toy-get more cameras.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:01 PM

94. A murderer is roaming the streets with a deadly weapon, killing and maiming people.

And the discussion gets bogged down in technical minutia. Do we really have to do this every damn time someone shoots someone?

If he was stabbing people would we be discussing the size and composition of the knife? Seriously, would we?

I think some of the people (some, but not all) who do this are simply trying to distract people from the main issue.

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Response to drm604 (Reply #94)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:32 PM

100. That's how it works with the gun nuts

They read about people getting shot to death and all they want to discuss is what kind of weapon was used.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #100)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:52 PM

101. and thats why

 

some want to ban guns that are not even involved in most gun violence. They want to ban based on cosmetic looking features but not by type of operation or get this handguns, you know the most commonly used firearm in murders. But god forbid it has a pistol grip or barrel shroud.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:09 PM

103. Let's see. Was it maybe a designer weapon? Pink? Chartreuse? Why debate type. Death is death.

Killing is killing. The type is irrelevant. We live in a violent society and apparently must be ready to die at any moment because people love the smell of gun powder. Maybe we should just start considering what death is like. Do the lights just go out? Does it hurt when those hot bullets hit you? Are there guns in heaven? Is there a heaven? Is there a hell? Maybe we should just all have classes on what dying is like. Oh wait. All we need to do is carry a weapon so we won't die. That's it. Right? All is simple and well with the world.

If you think about something, obsess about something or dwell on that something it will come to you. You do not need to seek it out. So, I guess we should all be ready for any eventuality.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:37 AM

112. Look! It's another law-abiding citizen exercising his second amendment rights!

We all naturally regret the loss of innocent life, but it would just be wrong to misuse this tragedy to take away his guns! Can you see? That would only further Obama's plot to help the communist fascists at the UN march their jack-booted storm-troopers through US cities, fluoridating our water, raping our daughters, and shooting Americans at random!

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #112)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:04 PM

121. Hey there, you left out Mooslims, dronz and FEMA camps. And Obama cellphones.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:42 AM

113. AK-47 Semi-Automatic Linked to 4 Philly Shootings

Philadelphia police are on the hunt for a man using a high-powered assault weapon
By Karen Araiza
Saturday, Apr 27, 2013 | Updated 12:09 AM EDT

... The shootings happened in one week, all in the same neighborhood, and all with an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle ...

"It's very disturbing but it also points out -- you have weapons like this out here that some would argue thjat people, civilians should have in their hands. I would argue very strongly that this is what you see when you have weapons like this out here on the streets," said Commissioner Charles Ramsey. He used the opportunity to talk again about gun control.

"It has no purpose, no place on the streets of our city. At all. I mean you think you're looking at Iraq instead of Philadelphia when you look at that. It's crazy. It's absolutely insane," said Ramsey. "So for those people who still think we need assault weapons, they need to think again. . .anybody could have been walking down the street and been struck with one of those bullets" ...

"You can't buy one of these weapons now without a waiting period, not because of a background check, but because they're buying them faster than you can manufacture and sell them. That's insane," Ramsey said ...

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/High-Powered-Weapon-Philadelphia-Four-Shootings-Missing-M16-204898451.html

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:21 AM

117. another police dept trying to take guns away from "hunters" like this! (sarcasm)

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:32 AM

118. All of Philadelphia is on lockdown, now, right? (nt)

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