Boston bomb suspect's aunt: Mosque won't bury Tamerlan Tsarnaev
Source: NBC
By Adrienne Mong, Correspondent, NBC News
MAKHACHKALA, Russia A Boston-area mosque has refused to hold a funeral for Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the dead suspect in the attack on the Boston Marathon, his aunt said Wednesday.
American authorities have told the family that they can have Tsarnaevs body, and an uncle approached the mosque to request a burial and funeral but was declined, said the aunt, Patimat Suleimanova.
She said that she did not know the name of the mosque but that it was one the family attended. A mosque in Cambridge, Mass., has said that Tsarnaev attended and occasionally caused disruptions and that mosque leaders threatened to kick him out.
A spokesman for the mosque, run by the Islamic Society of Boston, has said that congregants have been questioned by the FBI. The mosque did not immediately return a request for comment Wednesday from NBC News.
-snip-
Read more: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/24/17893358-boston-bomb-suspects-aunt-mosque-wont-bury-tamerlan-tsarnaev?lite
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)PB
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)If they try to bury this guy anywhere in Boston, prepare for a lot of dead grass on that grave.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)I still wouldn't bury the guy anywhere near Boston.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not the "optimal" choice, but I get the sense that the good people at that masjid do not regard this guy as a Muslim in good standing, which is appropriate given his conduct before his death. If he's not a Muslim as a consequence of his conduct, he's not entitled to Muslim rites upon death.
Such a conundrum!
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)2] Allah says:
"And indeed We have honoured the Children of Adam" [17 0]
Cremation is deemed as an act of dishonor to the dead. We derive at this by what we call Qiyas alawla, elevated analogy. Meaning, if we are not permitted to trample on the dead body, or sit on the actual grave itself, then more so with burning the body to ashes!
###
http://islamicemirate.com/fiqh-jurisprudence/death/1581-why-is-cremation-not-permissible-in-islam-why-do-we-not-believe-in-the-qpledge-of-allegianceq.html
PS- I'm not a Muslim; the headline of this comment originates at the site linked above
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)I think I remember hearing/reading about this when OBL was killed.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)In fact, the prohibitions against cremation in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam can all be traced back to common source.
Many primitive and animist religions revere fire, and the Middle East was dominated by fire worshippers including the Zoroastrians and Molochites during their formative centuries. Because these religions worshipped fire and were considered evil by the early Abrahamic religions, any practices that mimiced those religions were strictly banned.
FWIW, there's even a reference to this in the Bible, though very few people understand its meaning today: Leviticus 18:21, "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch". This was a reference to a fire worshipper practice where Canaanite parents would sacrifice their children to the fire god Moloch and incinerate their bodies. It appears that the Canaanites believed that incinerating the body sent the soul to the afterlife. The early Jews wanted nothing to do with that practice, for obvious reasons.
As Judaism spawned its Christian and Muslim offshoots, and as those religions worked hard to convert or conquer other "pagan" (usually fire worshipper) religions in the Middle East, the prohibition against adopting their practices simply became part of those faiths.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)An excellent description. In those times, earth, air, fire, water were about all these societies knew. Many myths and superstitions arose, some of which persist.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Brimley
(139 posts)Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)Jennicut
(25,415 posts)besides the two brothers. The mother may be mentally ill but the family just seems in shock. That being said, they need a reality check. I would go with the cremation route or a private burial. He was a terrorist.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with our lack of understanding and unwillingness to look beyond, i can absolutely understand why they would not get anywhere near this.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)doing this because they respect their own community and religion. The Mumbai attackers were denied burial as well:
A MUSLIM graveyard today refused to bury nine of the gunmen who terrorised Mumbai.
The men were not true followers of the Islamic faith, according to the influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust, which runs the 7.5-acre Badakabrastan graveyard in central Mumbai.
"People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim," said Hanif Nalkhande, a trustee. "Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/international/mumbai-killers-to-be-denied-a-muslim-burial-1-1150127
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)which most if not all religions promote. more the turn the other cheek side of religion.
but yes, you are correct. i see that.
thanks.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)"get saved" & then they can kill kill kill & churches have no problem at all burying Christian terrorist & mass killers.
I guess is I believed in that sort of thing I would be a Christian not a Muslim...You get all the benefits of an angry god without the ramifications of your own actions. LOL!
Tien1985
(920 posts)The Mosque has an obligation to bury him (unless you meant the family does, which I'd understand).
I bet a UU congregation would handle burial as respectfully as they could, but I don't think the family would want that.
I understand why they don't want anything to so with him, I just find this sad.
1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)Creatures at the bottom of the sea need to eat too.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)Might as well get some use out of him...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_farm
A body farm is a research facility where human decomposition can be studied in a variety of settings. The aim is to gain a better understanding of the decomposition process, permitting the development of techniques for extracting information (such as the timing and circumstances of death) from human remains. Body farm research is particularly important within forensic anthropology and related disciplines, and has applications in the fields of law enforcement and forensic science. Five such facilities exist in the United States, with the research facility operated by Texas State University at Freeman Ranch being the largest at seven acres.
flamingdem
(39,303 posts)can you imagine what the Mosque would endure especially if "Mom" is still saying it's a conspiracy.
Mom needs to apologize to the victims, step 1.
Skittles
(152,964 posts)do you remember the DENIAL phase?
marble falls
(56,358 posts)uppityperson
(115,674 posts)should they bury him there? I do not know their reasoning, but would understand not burying someone outside the faith in their cemetery.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)peace13
(11,076 posts)This place looks how it looks. We can't worry about how others perceive it because ....we can't control it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the local Islamic community of faith.
He was not what Muslims are.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)shall we dehumanize them, too. Dehumanizing is one of the things racists do to justify their murdering ways. Whether or not the murdering bomber is buried with religious rites matters not to him. But how we react to it says a lot about us.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)No one wants his body, so an unmarked grave is the solution.
Boo hoo.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)have no beef with his mosque. I am talking about the dehumanizing speech about this person made by members here on DU. There's a bandwagon of some pretty ugly speech and an air of oneupsmanship about it. It doesn't show us as very progressive at all. I bet the comments are not all that different than that being made right now in the rightwingasphere right this minute. One way or another the guy will be buried sanctioned by his faith or not. But the hatred spoken here bothers me a lot.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You'll find it's more typical than atypical.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)flopping candidates to a flip flopping public. Core human values mean mean something unless the 'perp' is a 'scumbag'? Situational ethics.
Typical? Maybe. But shameful never the less.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He's having his memory and name disrespected, deservedly so.
LeftishBrit
(41,190 posts)I don't blame the mosque for wanting nothing to do with him, or people on DU or elsewhere for hating him.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)not a hallmark of an enlightened society. Why can't he just be buried? All this glee is as the least undignified. What's next eat his liver? Smear his blood on our faces? Scalp him so he'll be bald in the next Bardo? Cut his throat and give him a Colombian Neck-tie? At what point would we be going too far and beyond? I think its at the point where we begin to sound like Rush Limpbaugh and Glen Buke.
intheflow
(28,406 posts)I see many people defending the mosque's autonomy to decide who is worthy of being buried as a Muslim. That's called Freedom of Religion. The Imam has said such violent acts proves Tsarnaev was not a true follower of Islam or Allah, that's why they're not burying him.
So what makes you think the responses here are xenophobic? No one has said anything about keeping out immigrants (xenophobia), no one has disparaged Muslims or Chechnyans (teabaggery). Yours is the kneejerk comment if you can't back it up.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)"Because your whole family is scum and the local Islamic community wants nothing to do with you!", "Yup. It would have to be unmarked, or there'd be a lot of whizzing on that plot.", "I've been waiting for Mom or Dad...to start screaming "he died at a Jew hospital? He's being treated by Jews? Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy!!!", "I had not even thought of that - dying in a Jewish hospital. About burying him, I believe there is a good chance his body would be dug up and desecrated. His family needs to keep this in mind while they make a decision about the body." How many bodies in the US are dug up and desicrated in this country so where does this come from???????
I bet if we monitored the right wing blogs and forums, we'd be reading this same sort of hate speech.
intheflow
(28,406 posts)Are you suggesting everyone who condemns terrorists are xenophobic? I remember similar things said about McVeigh and the Unibomber, homegrown American boys. And I refuted that one comment about the Jew conspiracy which was posted after your original post. Also, noting that some asshole might dig up his body does not make DUers xenophobic, it makes them realists living in this fucked up Rush Limbaugh-loving country. No posts on this page are advocating digging up his body.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)voter id reform teapublicans in a jam in the end. The real issue wasn't id reform it was about voter suppression. Why even mention digging someone up as a reason to further humiliate a corpse and/or his family? My comments aren't about anybody actively digging him up - I've already stipulated its an event that just doesn't happen in this country over political reasons. Its about even having the notion or using the notion to further "punish" the terrorist and/or his family. And we won't even mention the weirdness needed to propose punishing a corpse. I am very suspicious of people who refer to other humans as a "pig" or as "animals" or "less than human". Its generally a racist conceit used to dehumanize people and classes of people..
intheflow
(28,406 posts)but given the level of dehumanizing activity demonstrated by the Tsarnaev brothers, it a completely understandable and human reaction. It is not necessarily demonstrative of prejudice against anything but dehumanizing actions, akin to calling police pigs when they engage in police brutality.
Also, digging up a corpse is certainly extreme, but it's not as though grave desecration is unknown in the US. Here are a couple recent examples:
http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Elizabeth-City-Police-Investigating-Bizarre-Grave-Desecration-Reburial-199468551.html
http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/14549638-418/muslim-graves-desecrated-at-evergreen-park-cemetery.html
The world is filled with some very sick people. That's a fact.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)Was good enough for Osama Been Rotten, why not this guy? Nothing outlandish about my comment. Check yourself before condemning others.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)really would have preferred him being brought in a US court. As a Navy vet I have not a thing against burial at sea. I have no problem with burial at sea for Osama bin Laden, I wish he had been brought before justice in a US court first. So maybe you need to check yourself first. Hate speech is hate speech.
DallasNE
(7,392 posts)And sticking to your principles. Good job. Hate is hate so it is not situational and neither are principles. There is no time that hate is proper. The ACLU faces this wrath all of the time. Stick to your guns (figure of speech). I'm with you here.
John2
(2,730 posts)the only one, because I agree. I wonder if there was the same responses about Timothy McVeigh? It is just an endless cycle of hatred on both sides. And you have people incubating it. Innocent people are being murdered by both sides. He was a troubled young man but he wasn't a pig. I would say the same about McVeigh. I've said many times that I'm not religious, but I don't understand people that calls themselves Christians. The founder of their faith even forgave his murderers on the Cross. It is nothing but hate.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Both sides? You can't actually be comparing people talking some trash about a dead asshole and the dead asshole who blew people up. Those are not even in the same universe of hatred, so there is no other side to the "cycle" you're talking about.
marble falls
(56,358 posts)Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)No one wants anything to do with him? Or toss him in the sewer without cremation if that's against his religion.
LeftInTX
(24,549 posts)If it won't work out in Russia, I guess he could be buried here.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Perfect and fitting resolution to this problem.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)intheflow
(28,406 posts)There is something of karmic justice unfolding in all of this.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)to start screaming "he died at a Jew hospital? He's being treated by Jews? Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy!!!"
intheflow
(28,406 posts)From what I gather about the family, they're rather secular Muslims. A correlation might be akin to the majority of Americans claim to believe in God but the majority of Americans don't go to church regularly. I haven't heard anything to suggest there was anything anti-Semitic in these boys' motivations, either, at least not according to Dzhokhar's statement. He said they were motivated by US wars, which is far from saying the attacks were motivated by Islam or anti-semitism. Methinks you're jumping to your own biased conclusions.
eissa
(4,238 posts)not so much. She seems like the lunatic in the family that the older brother takes after.
intheflow
(28,406 posts)I haven't heard her saying Allah forgives him or he's a good Jahadist for Islam. She's defending her son's honor, she's probably in deep denial that she raised a terrorist. She does seem a bit nutty, but none of that is proof she holds extremist Muslim views.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Sunseeker has a very good post on it, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014464121#post13
intheflow
(28,406 posts)and trying to give them a moral compass is very, very different than being an extremist Muslim. Even the post you link to says the son went overboard with Islam. It doesn't suggest the mother was pushing extremism.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)try reading my comment.
intheflow
(28,406 posts)so forgive me for interpreting that as you thought the parents held extremist views.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)and she was present when her son was being instructed by Misha, the radicalized convert to Islam. She further believes 9/11 was an anti-Muslim conspiracy hatched by the U.S. What hasn't been reported is that that alleged anti-Muslim conspiracy was done by the U.S. at the behest of Israel. Why shouldn't I expect this woman to go ape over her sons being treated by Jews (an Israeli national no less) in a Jewish hospital?
BTW, there's no need to ask forgiveness, I didn't take your comment as a slap.
intheflow
(28,406 posts)And you don't provide links to the other stuff you're citing. In the first 5 pages of my google search of "tsarnaev mother anti-american" I only found one reference to one conversation she overheard between Misha and Tamerlan, and did not find anything suggesting she was anti-American. Even the fact that she's saying her sons have been framed is no more anti-American than DUers who often suggest our government might be up to something less than noble pursuits in the world. Especially when she seems in so much denial that her own little angels could have been anything less than angelic. I still maintain you're jumping to conclusions based on your own biases.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)a key element of the "America wants to destroy Muslims" and that particular 9/11 conspiracy theory is that we (the U.S.) did it at the behest and on behalf of Israel. That the media chooses not to report that is their choice. Somewhere here on DU is a lengthy interview with the Uncle, in that interview he discusses the impact of Misha on the family as well as that the mother began wearing the head scarf.
OTOH, I suspect she won't be talking to the media any more or, should I say, I'm hoping she won't. I don't have any link to provide you with to prove my instinct, I just feel after her comments to CNN yesterday, she won't be talking. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014464121#op I don't think she'll be coming to the U.S. either (update at the same link).
If I have a religious bias, it is toward fundamentalist Christians, their control over elected officials, combined with their attempts to mold the U.S. government into representing their beliefs solely, not Muslims. My bias toward this mother is based on the things she has said and done while she was in this country but that has nothing to do with her religion.
I think you have a bias to the, "oh! This poor mother" school of thought
Have you read this article:
I Knew the Boston Bombers Mother: What She Told Me About 9/11, Islam, and Her Sons
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/21/i-knew-the-boston-bombers-mother-what-she-told-me-about-9-11-islam-and-her-sons.html
octothorpe
(962 posts)They were all over that...
patricia92243
(12,590 posts)him, I believe there is a good chance his body would be dug up and desecrated. His family needs to keep this in mind while they make a decision about the body.
cali
(114,904 posts)intheflow
(28,406 posts)However, Beth Israel Hospital was indeed founded in 1916 specifically to treat Jewish patients during a time of rampant anti-Semitism. They alone provided doctors and staff who spoke Yiddish and prepared kosher meals.
http://www.bidmc.org/AboutBIDMC/TheHistoryofBIDMC/HowitAllBegan.aspx
They've always treated anyone in need, as did Deaconess Hospital, founded as a Methodist hospital. The two hospitals merged in the 1990's.
hamsterjill
(15,214 posts)It's up to the mosque as to what it will do and won't do. Its rules need to be respected.
There's a part of me that believes that funerals are for the living, not the dead, so I can understand that the denial by the mosque may be a source of additional grief for the family, but good grief!
To me, it would seem like NOW (if not before...like when all of this began!) would be the time for the family to stop giving interviews, deal with their personal loss privately, and quit advertising what their plans are.
This morning, I heard an interview with the former husband of one of the sisters, who admitted that he'd not seen either of the two bombers since 2010. Who is next? A long lost cousin?
truthisfreedom
(23,113 posts)We're too invested in this part of his demise.
elleng
(130,126 posts)on MSNBC/Andrea Mitchell, at least not true @ Boston mosque Tamerlan attended. They are not aware of any oveture by the family.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Oh well
I think ol' Tsarnaev would be a great vehicle for organ donations...
muxin
(98 posts)and not because Tsarnaev is considered as a bad muslim or not seen as a muslim, I believe the mosque leaders just don't want to have anything to do with the body to protect the Islamic society from any prejudice. As far as I concern, Tsarnaev is still a muslim even though he's not a good one, as long as he believes in 5 pillars of Islam then he's still a muslim and every muslim, even the most evil criminal deserves a proper burial by the muslim society.
Because in Islam, burying the dead is an obligation that's called "Fardhu Kifayah", meaning it's the responsibility of the whole society that can be carried by a number of people in the society. If no one in the society is willing to carry that responsibility then the whole society is considered committing a sin. However, in this "special" condition it's understandable because the goal is for greater good of everybody else, the innocent people in the society itself.
JudyM
(29,122 posts)colorado_ufo
(5,715 posts)His family can pray for the forgiveness of his soul, without official religious intervention.
We need to remember that burials are more for the remaining living than for the dead. His family was not responsible for this young man's terrible decisions, and they need some solace and closure. He has punished them enough by tarnishing the family name forever.
Until this happened, there is no doubt that his family would never have believed it could happen to them. Those here on DU that wish to inflict more pain on them do not seem to realize that this could happen in their families, as well. How many families are associated with drunk drivers who caused horrible fatalities? It could happen to any of us. Let's show some compassion for the innocent members of his family. God can handle the matter of the bombers' ultimate fate.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)uppityperson
(115,674 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)I just got through reading the Prayers for Boston Page, and now coming to this thread the difference in sentiment seems shocking.
In the other thread people were talking about praying for the younger brother, and here I am hearing about this mosque turning away this family and everyone is calling his family scum . I get that he committed the worst type of deeds, but he was still a Muslim wasn't he? Didn't he do this because of his beliefs?
I can't help but think the mosque is more interested in protecting themselves from scorn and protecting their own PR than they are in doing right by his family. As if they want to say he wasn't REALLY a Muslim, No TRUE Muslim would do this. Its like they are abandoning their duty to the family.
But I know almost nothing about Islam, so im not sure if these are fair sentiments. Does anyone know what the Qur'an say on this? Does it specifically call for excommunication (is that the right word?) for murder? What about this "Fardhu Kifayah" mentioned in post 53? Is there an exception actually listed in the book?
Regardless, I feel funerals are more for the family. So, in lieu of evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to assume they had nothing to do with his actions (or at least his uncle's side of the family). I can't help but think they should have the chance to say good-bye. Even if its in a private ceremony in an unmarked plot.
marshall
(6,661 posts)Whatever mosque he attended there can step up.