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brooklynite

(93,836 posts)
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:06 PM Apr 2013

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev confesses

Source: Salon

From his hospital bed, 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has reportedly confessed to planting explosives near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. In response to extensive bedside questioning by federal agents, the suspect — charged on Monday with using a weapon of mass destruction against people and property — reportedly admitted to acting alone with his (now deceased) brother, with no connections to outside terror groups.

According to the Washington Post, citing unnamed official sources, “the 19-year-old suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings has told interrogators that the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan motivated him and his brother to carry out the attack”

Read more: http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/dzhokhar_tsarnaev_confesses/



Could be a short trial.
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Dzhokhar Tsarnaev confesses (Original Post) brooklynite Apr 2013 OP
Another notch in GWB's legacy appleannie1 Apr 2013 #1
I wouldn't be quick to believe him--neither one mentioned Iraq or Afghanistan geek tragedy Apr 2013 #3
Actually there are accounts of bizarre rants against the US wars there riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #9
It seems that their outrage followed Tamerlan's radicalization. nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #11
I think it's entirely believable. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2013 #12
These guys weren't all that upset about it until they became fundyclowns. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #14
Uhm, I disagree. Rwanda, Ireland, South Africa etc there's a littered trail of maimed civilians riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #16
These guys had suffered no human rights abuses. They were not oppressed. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #17
The history of the world is populated by those who never directly suffered riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #20
Radical religious fundamentalism is the cause here, not Iraq/Afghanistan. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #21
their radical religious fundamentalism, or ours? olddad56 Apr 2013 #23
. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #24
okay, then I blame you. olddad56 Apr 2013 #34
Try posting in a coherent manner--you might like it. nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #39
talking to yourself? must be hearing those voices again. olddad56 Apr 2013 #43
This seems like a chicken and egg argument. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2013 #31
Not really. They became bigoted religious nutjobs, then they started killing infidels. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #35
Agreed...Many, including Muslims worldwide, are "outraged" or "angry" about that situation. whathehell Apr 2013 #55
Totally agree ... brett_jv Apr 2013 #57
Do you really believe these kids were serious participants in a movement? BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #29
Why so rude? There's no hostile intent in this discussion riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #32
Didn't I see he was turned down to try for the Olympics in boxing? Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #36
His feelings were hurt BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #41
He was turned down for citizenship because of the domestic violence charges against him. amandabeech Apr 2013 #50
Yes, I know about the violence, but I was referring to him being told Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #60
+1 n/t JackN415 Apr 2013 #27
Only a truly demented individual would want revenge for a country he didn't come from. randome Apr 2013 #56
bingo SummerSnow Apr 2013 #38
Excellent point.It's all Dubya's fault that two murderous losers chose to maim and slaughter abq e streeter Apr 2013 #5
+1 hrmjustin Apr 2013 #54
I'm sure the GOP will not like this AgingAmerican Apr 2013 #2
We fought them over there so we could fight more of them here. n/t Orsino Apr 2013 #8
And you believe this proven liar? snagglepuss Apr 2013 #42
proven liar? frylock Apr 2013 #45
A dissembler is a liar. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #64
So much for Mom screeching that he was set up. ROFL. kestrel91316 Apr 2013 #4
She'll claim her "darling little angel" was tortured... Archae Apr 2013 #6
And so the blow Carolina Apr 2013 #7
I know that we are all not living in a vacuum. We all affect each other. Gregorian Apr 2013 #13
I've agreed with this assessment for 11 and a half years. GliderGuider Apr 2013 #15
You are right, except not "tiny" role. Huge role, if not the principal role. JackN415 Apr 2013 #28
so hopefully he will plead guilty then rollin74 Apr 2013 #10
They may not let him leftynyc Apr 2013 #18
confessing/pleading guilty doesn't necessarily avoid the death penalty rollin74 Apr 2013 #19
Are you sure? brooklynite Apr 2013 #26
yes. If he pleads guilty AND the death penalty is sought then the process rollin74 Apr 2013 #30
Sorry - that's what I meant leftynyc Apr 2013 #44
One side decides when to start a war, but that does not apply to ending them. Coyotl Apr 2013 #22
No one started a war with these guys. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #25
Right. They were volunteers. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2013 #33
Just like our legal abortion policy encourages people like Scott Roder? geek tragedy Apr 2013 #37
Note: it appears Alex Jones was also an influence geek tragedy Apr 2013 #48
had nothing to do with Iraq and AFghanistan, were they involved in any political activity JI7 Apr 2013 #40
Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #46
Confess? He is probably bragging about it. N/T GreenStormCloud Apr 2013 #47
It is a pity that they targeted innocent people! Rosa Luxemburg Apr 2013 #49
these guys had good lives ahead of them warrprayer Apr 2013 #51
Dammit, he should at least give Glen Beck time to figure this out jberryhill Apr 2013 #52
I dunno about this. Would you "confess" if the "authorities" had control of... Peace Patriot Apr 2013 #53
Know you are going to catch a rash of shit for this. Ruby the Liberal Apr 2013 #58
Wow, dude ... lot of paranoia there ... brett_jv Apr 2013 #59
i did not "jump on" any "conspiracy bandwagon." I said it warrants investigation... Peace Patriot Apr 2013 #67
I don't know about a conspiracy, but some ineptitude on the part of the FBI/CIA perhaps. Matilda Apr 2013 #61
Well said, I agree ... brett_jv Apr 2013 #65
That's a very good point about the bombs. Matilda Apr 2013 #66
Sigh. nt Codeine Apr 2013 #63
Attacking civilians that had nothing to do with it puts them down on the level Ash_F Apr 2013 #62
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
3. I wouldn't be quick to believe him--neither one mentioned Iraq or Afghanistan
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:16 PM
Apr 2013

publicly, according to accounts thus far.

We had withdrawn from Iraq years before any of this went down.

I expect it's a post hoc excuse for their action rather than a motivation.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
9. Actually there are accounts of bizarre rants against the US wars there
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

Here's just one account of several (you can google for more)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/20/tsarnaev-brothers_n_3125550.html

"One of the brothers' neighbors, Albrecht Ammon, said he had a bizarre encounter with Tamerlan in a pizza shop about three months ago. The older brother argued with him about U.S. foreign policy, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and religion."


FWIW, I'm mad about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think our government is massively complicit in an enormous MIC effort for $$, oil, pipelines etc. Not to the point of doing anything violent but I don't think its impossible to think that guys like the Tsarnaevs may also be informed (and mad) about what's going on there...



 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
12. I think it's entirely believable.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:30 PM
Apr 2013

There are still 100,000+ dead Iraqis because of our war, even if we (largely) withdrew a couple of years ago.

And a like number of dead Afghans.

On edit: Oh, and Pakistanis and Yemenis and Somalis, and let's not forget all the friends we win in the region with our one-sided support of Israel and it's oppression of the Palestinians. And our support for those glorious guardians of democracy, the Gulf sheiks.

We've created a ton of simmering resentment from the Gates of Gibralter to the straits of Molucca. I'd say we have a foreign policy that is almost designed to generate terroristic responses.

Does that justify acts of terror directed at innocent civilians? No. But it might explain them, at least partially.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
14. These guys weren't all that upset about it until they became fundyclowns.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:31 PM
Apr 2013

Seems more like an excuse to latch onto on the part of religious nutters.

People who are outraged over human rights abuses don't intentionally maim civilians.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
16. Uhm, I disagree. Rwanda, Ireland, South Africa etc there's a littered trail of maimed civilians
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:48 PM
Apr 2013

as a result of an oppressed group lashing out because of human rights abuses they've suffered ....




 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
17. These guys had suffered no human rights abuses. They were not oppressed.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:51 PM
Apr 2013

They were Americans. And then they lost their marbles. Then they started up with the concern over Iraq.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
20. The history of the world is populated by those who never directly suffered
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:05 PM
Apr 2013

from the abuses but took up "the cause" nonetheless.

Really? You don't think ANYONE joins a cause out of sympathy with the movement if they don't have a personal investment?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
21. Radical religious fundamentalism is the cause here, not Iraq/Afghanistan.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:08 PM
Apr 2013

They became radical Islamist fundyclowns, then they started caring about Iraq and Afghanistan.

Their radicalization preceded and caused the purported outrage over Afghanistan/Iraq.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
31. This seems like a chicken and egg argument.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:53 PM
Apr 2013

Our foreign policies provide much to be outraged about, once you decide to be outraged.

And it's not about "blaming the victims" (us), but about understanding why someone would attack us. Pretending that there are no reasons for people to pissed at us is just stupid. Again, that does not justify attacking innocent civilians.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
35. Not really. They became bigoted religious nutjobs, then they started killing infidels.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:00 PM
Apr 2013

Along the way, they started to give a shit about Iraq and Afghanistan, and tossed that on as an excuse.

Excuse, not motive.

Excuse, not cause.

Sorry, not going to play the blame-shifting game on this.

whathehell

(28,968 posts)
55. Agreed...Many, including Muslims worldwide, are "outraged" or "angry" about that situation.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:36 PM
Apr 2013

but they don't go planting bombs to blow up innocents or choose to

kill a 26 year old cop "because he's American".

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
57. Totally agree ...
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 09:20 PM
Apr 2013

It's one thing if your father had died as collateral damage in some drone strike in Pakistan ... but AFA we know, nothing like that every happened to these boys. It's an excuse, nothing more.

HOWEVER ... there's an AWFUL lot of people out there who actually are legitimately aggrieved against the USA in that sort of way ... so it's a safe bet that sooner or later we're going to have to decide the fate of someone who struck back at us with terror DIRECTLY because someone they loved was killed in our military escapades abroad.

It will be interesting to see how America deals with that when the time comes. That's assuming, of course, the public is ever actually allowed to KNOW that this the reason such a person acted against us. By no means a foregone conclusion ...

BeyondGeography

(39,276 posts)
29. Do you really believe these kids were serious participants in a movement?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:48 PM
Apr 2013

More likely they were selfish monsters. They went to our schools. Our teachers, coaches, counselors undoubtedly spent thousands of hours educating, encouraging, and trying to motivate them toward something constructive. They lived freely. Nobody bothered them, and nobody would have bothered them even if they had voiced opposition to Iraq and Afghanistan.

As for the history of the world, it's also littered with spoiled, vain children who are motivated by small, selfish goals like the illusion of glory or just the temporary excitement of doing something "big."

Wake up, please.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
32. Why so rude? There's no hostile intent in this discussion
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:56 PM
Apr 2013

why introduce one?


"Wake up please"?

FWIW, I don't see why it can't be many reasons - religious fundamentalism, latching onto a cause, immigrant alienation, big brother worship and yes, even selfish monsterdom... I don't think it has to be JUST one thing. I was making a point with geektragedy that other people can and do take up a cause that appears to be unrelated to their own circumstances.

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
36. Didn't I see he was turned down to try for the Olympics in boxing?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:02 PM
Apr 2013

Since he wasn't a citizen, he couldn't join the team.

That made me think he was living under the delusion he was "hot" at boxing and could win a medal...maybe that made him hate other sports participants.

BeyondGeography

(39,276 posts)
41. His feelings were hurt
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:41 PM
Apr 2013

He didn't make it as a boxer and he said he didn't understand Americans, even though he was married to one who supported him and his child by working up to 70 hours a week. He was 26 and going nowhere and surely blamed everyone but himself. And American actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, of course.

Everything points to trivial (relative to the crime committed) personal/emotional factors as the primary force at work here. The larger "causes" are invoked to justify the indefensible. Sad that so many here play along.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
50. He was turned down for citizenship because of the domestic violence charges against him.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:20 PM
Apr 2013

There may have been another violence-related charge as well.

It may be that the elder brother had general rage problems in addition to everything else.

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
60. Yes, I know about the violence, but I was referring to him being told
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 11:50 PM
Apr 2013

he couldn't get into the boxing program because he wasn't a citizen of the US. This upset him, which may have contributed to his anger toward the US and sports-minded participants.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
56. Only a truly demented individual would want revenge for a country he didn't come from.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:39 PM
Apr 2013

It would be like you or me bombing Germany because of what happened to the Jews.

abq e streeter

(7,658 posts)
5. Excellent point.It's all Dubya's fault that two murderous losers chose to maim and slaughter
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:17 PM
Apr 2013

innocent people.....sarcasm obviously.
I despise George Bush with every fiber of my soul,and he has PLENTY of innocent blood on his hands but this murderous little punk and his brother are alone responsible for this vicious crime.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
2. I'm sure the GOP will not like this
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:15 PM
Apr 2013

They have been drooling at the prospect of it being ordered by foreigners.

Archae

(46,260 posts)
6. She'll claim her "darling little angel" was tortured...
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:21 PM
Apr 2013

Like Bolling at Faux "news" wants done to him.

Carolina

(6,960 posts)
7. And so the blow
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:24 PM
Apr 2013

back begins. Please don't get me wrong... my sympathies are with the victims, not the lone surviving perpetrator.

I hate that innocents pay the high, and ultimate, price for BushCo and other chickenshit chickenhawk warmongers.

But when the US started bombing Iraq and photos of maimed and killed children appeared all over the web, I knew there would be hell to pay... someday. It may be a self-serving excuse for this perp, but we cannot deny that what the US has done over there is surely a source of simmering hatred and a potential reason for violence against innocents here.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
13. I know that we are all not living in a vacuum. We all affect each other.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:30 PM
Apr 2013

We may never know the specifics. I've seen a documentary that stated that Bin Laden was inspired by US bombs.

I hope our national psyche is more inclusive of the notion that people never act alone. Child abuse could be the single most important aspect. But that's only one specific. There must be millions.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
15. I've agreed with this assessment for 11 and a half years.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:46 PM
Apr 2013

In the third week of September, 2011 I tried to make the point that maybe the way the USA had been treating the rest of the world since the end of WWII played some tiny role in the events. It was a massively unpopular suggestion at the time.

Root cause analysis isn't much fun when it's one's own roots that are being unearthed. Analysts who insist on doing it can become about as welcome as a skunk at a picnic. This time around though, with the Republic obviously under less existential threat from this pair of sociopathic flakes, and with the wars and a couple of terms of Dubyafication behind us, it may be easier to be objective about things.

rollin74

(1,952 posts)
10. so hopefully he will plead guilty then
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:27 PM
Apr 2013

and spare us the time and expense of a lengthy and unnecessary trial

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
18. They may not let him
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:52 PM
Apr 2013

He can't confess and get the death penalty (I'm pretty sure that's how it works - confessions are how they take the DP off the table).

rollin74

(1,952 posts)
19. confessing/pleading guilty doesn't necessarily avoid the death penalty
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:03 PM
Apr 2013

if he pleads guilty and federal prosecutors seek the death penalty...

there would be a jury trial as to the penalty phase and he could still be sentenced to death

though there is the potential for him to be spared as part of a plea bargain but the prosecution would have to sign off on the deal

brooklynite

(93,836 posts)
26. Are you sure?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:29 PM
Apr 2013

If he pleads guilty to the Judge and avoids a Jury Trial, do they assemble a Jury simply for the penalty phase?

rollin74

(1,952 posts)
30. yes. If he pleads guilty AND the death penalty is sought then the process
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:50 PM
Apr 2013

skips to the penalty phase and a jury would be impaneled to determine whether or not to sentence him to death

personally, I would advocate for a sentence of life without parole but that is what would happen if the feds pursue the death penalty even if he pleads guilty

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
44. Sorry - that's what I meant
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 04:17 PM
Apr 2013

That the feds would take the DP off the table if he confessed as part of a plea. It certainly would save a lot of angst.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
25. No one started a war with these guys.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:20 PM
Apr 2013

They declared war on their own neighbors and community.

Ugh, these guys are not resistance fighters.

They're fundamentalist murderers.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
33. Right. They were volunteers.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:58 PM
Apr 2013

And we are in a global political situation where they could feel like they were advancing their cause, or at least striking back against the enemy, no matter how misguided they were.

I'll say it again: We have a foreign policy that seems almost designed to generate guys like these.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
37. Just like our legal abortion policy encourages people like Scott Roder?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:03 PM
Apr 2013

Or is it only when we agree with the grievance that we must 'understand the policy that causes the crime?"

JI7

(89,172 posts)
40. had nothing to do with Iraq and AFghanistan, were they involved in any political activity
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:38 PM
Apr 2013

protesting these issues ? even sending letters to members of congress, anything ???

no, the older brother had personal setbacks and decided to take it out on others and took up religion, war etc as an excuse.

the younger one was probably given stuff by his brother to go along. neither thought they would get caught, especially the younger one.

Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Rosa Luxemburg

(28,627 posts)
49. It is a pity that they targeted innocent people!
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:01 PM
Apr 2013

It was a disgusting and horrible act. They should have not been left off the radar and should be punished severely.

However, Bush and Cheney targeted innocent people who had nothing to do with 9/11

warrprayer

(4,734 posts)
51. these guys had good lives ahead of them
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:24 PM
Apr 2013

and could have become well enough off and educated enough to make a real difference forthe good. Instead they chose to make this world a sadder place and bring death and suffereing.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
53. I dunno about this. Would you "confess" if the "authorities" had control of...
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:26 PM
Apr 2013

...the tube down your throat and other lifelines? Not to mention that he's barely out of adolescence, completely isolated as only "Homeland Security" can isolate, and recovering from multiple, life-theatening gunshot wounds.

I don't think the doctors should have agreed to this interrogation, and I wonder if they were pressured (or had any choice). On the basis of what news we have, I think this interrogation was wrong. POSSIBLY an interrogation was warranted, as to trying to determine additional threat (if everything is on the up and up), but to extract a "confession"? Without counsel? Of an intubated, severely wounded youth?

No! And this promulgation of his alleged statement that there is no further threat--that he and his brother acted alone--really, REALLY does not go down well with me. We're supposed to BELIEVE this statement? Why else would it be released? We're supposed to believe it--with the older brother dead. Would YOU believe it--if the circumstances are as they are being portrayed?

I also don't like the comments here that he is just a spoiled rich kid, who took advantage of U.S. institutions, lived in a privileged place and attended privileged schools, and was never harassed. He was permitted into this country, and naturalized as a U.S. citizen. These are things that WE did--or rather our government did--not him. He was just a child. Do children generally choose where they live? No. Do children generally choose to be privileged or not privileged? No, of course not. These things are out of their power, so, to BLAME them for these circumstances is unfair and unreasonable.

Furthermore, his brother tripped all kinds of wires that should have set off alarms. I agree with the "conspiracy theorists" about this. Something is not right. And I think that questions like the following need to be asked and investigated:

How did the older brother die? Was there really a honest-to-God shoot-out, or was he targeted for assassination? And, if so, why? Mere hatred/revenge, or something else?

Were these two young men, or at least the older brother, being groomed to go back to Russia as terrorists, rather like the Bushwhacks groomed Osama bin Laden and created Al Qaeda to war against the Russians in Afghanistan?

What went wrong with our 'Homeland Security' system that older brother was, a) getting jihadist radicalized, and freely flying in and out of the U.S., on visas (he was not a citizen); and b) assembling an arsenal in Boston (if police reports of a "massive" shootout are true) as well as bomb makings for (allegedly) many bombings? Why wasn't he on a watch list, and why weren't these things known--or were they?

Numerous alarm bells--at mosques, in public, to friends, in his travels. I cannot believe that they weren't monitoring his internet use and knew what was going on with him. And they let him travel to Chechnya, the biggest hotbed of Russian jihadist activity--and return here, and then assemble armaments and bombs?

It has a certain smell, don't you think? Enough to warrant investigation by independent parties who might have the wherewithal to do so. Most of us, all we have is the corporate media, and they have caved--not to mention propagandized--on so many important issues, and have been so particularly faulty on investigations of government and corporate and war profiteer wrong-doing, and are so understaffed (and staffed by stupids)--accepting canned handouts and promoting them as 'news'--that we really can't trust them.

I hesitate to say all these things, because I know that this situation (like Benghazi) is being used by the rightwing--so horribly, dishonorably and hypocritically--even as they bring back Dumbya for our delectation--to dis Obama and claw their way back into power. But I DO think that, a) Obama is not so innocent any more, and b) he is rather seriously shackled and not in full control of our government, especially of our government's secret agencies. Do I think a "false flag" operation could go forward within those agencies without his knowledge or okay? Yup, I do. Do I think he would okay such a thing? No--so it would be kept from him. Do I think a "false flag" operation could be perpetrated by some non-government or foreign entity, with perhaps only a few cooperators on the U.S. payroll (for instance, whoever failed to heed the alarm on older brother's views and activities)? Yup. I absolutely think there are conscience-less, fascist moles, or blackmailed moles, or paid moles, who WOULD cooperate with such an operation.

Some rules for proceeding in this post-Bush Junta (and, it seems more and more likely, pre-Bush Junta II) country and world:

Be seriously skeptical of everything you read, or hear/see on TV/radio or the internet, that comes from corporate or official sources (and be very aware of sources in general).

Don't jump to conclusions about individuals who are accused of crimes (for instance, this one) or COUNTRIES that are accused of crimes, especially those that have a lot of oil. (Duh.)

And, while there isn't much you can do about Washington DC--it is so overwhelmingly corrupt and secretive--there might be something you can do locally, as to informing your community, forming communities, strengthening communities and addressing specific problems of Corporate Rule. (I'm thinking of the 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines, but there are many other aspects to Corporate invasion of our lives and public spaces).

Transglobal corporations and related war profiteers ARE the authors of most of our ills, as a people and a country. We have been rendered nearly powerless to resist them. We need to rebuild the institutions that give us unity, strength and rightful power, as a people, in the governing of our lives and in the activities of our government on our behalf.

It is tragic that so many people have GOOD REASON to distrust everything that is foisted upon us as information in a horrible event like this, and every day, on many issues and events. But that's how it is: Our government is not our own. It operates solely in the interest of corporations and war profiteers and has adopted their wretched habit of "Alice in Wonderland-ish" lying--lying that is so upside down, inside out and backwards, that it ends up in gibberish and jabberwocky. A Mobius strip of lying. Lying that feeds itself. Lying that doubles back on itself. Lying that is incomprehensible. Lying that is so absurd, all you can do is laugh.

I just came upon one of these U.S. government lies this week. The U.S. government is demanding that Venezuela recount its special presidential election. Venezuela, which, according to former U.S. president Jimmy Carter has "the best election system in the world." Venezuela, which not only provides a ballot for every vote, in an electronic system run on OPEN SOURCE code, but also does a whopping 55% audit (comparison on ballots to electronic results)--more than five times the audit necessary to detect fraud in an electronic system.

Know what kind of code is used in all U.S. states? Know who owns it? Know how many states in the U.S. do NO AUDIT AT ALL and CANNOT recount the vote? Know how many do a miserably inadequate 1% audit?

If you don't know these things, you should. And if you don't know them, you may not be able to understand what I mean by "Alice in Wonderland-ish" lying. Lying that is so absurd, all you can do is laugh.

Ruby the Liberal

(26,216 posts)
58. Know you are going to catch a rash of shit for this.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 10:08 PM
Apr 2013

But thank you for posting it.

"Something is not right."

Yep.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
59. Wow, dude ... lot of paranoia there ...
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 10:23 PM
Apr 2013

Of course, that doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you, eh?



Seriously though man I think you're jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon a little quickly here.

Firstly, how do you know that the US government had any inkling about his travel to Chechnya? I read he got a VISA to go to Russia, to visit his parents. From there, the US wouldn't automatically 'know' wherever ELSE he went to. Not unless they're monitoring his every move.

Secondly, at the time the FBI 'checked him out', he may well still have been in his sex, drugs, and rap phase. We know he only broke from it not that long ago, so ...

Thirdly, for all we know, these sorts of 'warnings' from foreign countries about people here in teh US are very routine, and based on flimsy evidence ... like, simply because someone went to some specific region at some point, Russia 'warns' us about them. And these may come in such volume that there's no way the FBI can afford to keep tabs on every single one of them, forever more.

Fourthly: "Massive Shootout" fired does NOT necessarily mean that the guy had an massive Arsenal. All you need is one gun to get into a shootout. The cops were the ones with the automatic weapons, I'd guess.

Fifthly: There's no evidence I've heard that the suggest any bombs these guys made were anything apart from the primitive things you can learn to make on the internet, using materials who's purchases are not 'tracked'

Sixthly: You are exaggerating when you make it sound like he was flying to Chechnya repeatedly. All I've read about is ONE trip in the last few years. And like I said above, he went to Russia from the US, not Chechnya.

Also, I want you to consider what we all thought was the 'purpose' of 'false flags' throughout the Bush years. It was to justify further imperial expansion, gain control of oil, war profiteering, etc, right?

Now ... you are speculating on a false flag operation, but for some reason you're apt to believe that foreign involvement is being HIDDEN? How does THAT benefit the war machine ... the one's that would be 'behind' a false flag like this one? It doesn't.

I could see, if we were being led to believe that there WAS foreign involvement (like, say, there's deposits to his bank account that originated in IRAN!!!) ... being skeptical and pondering 'false flag'. But the fact that we're being told the opposite? That actually makes me feel MUCH better in that regard.

It is, IMHO, entirely illogical to conclude that a 'denial of foreign involvement' implies 'false flag'. It's just the opposite, really.

No offense, but the first half of your writing sounds like an Alex Jones article, what with all the baseless (but oh... so... sinister) "Or WAS HE?!?" junk thrown in.

You're getting sucked into a buncha nonsense dude ... just like I did back in 2001 with the whole LIHOP/MIHOP thing. I've seen it happen to myself, and I'm telling ya ... don't go there. You end up feeling stupid later

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
67. i did not "jump on" any "conspiracy bandwagon." I said it warrants investigation...
Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:10 AM
Apr 2013

...independent investigation.

Alex Jones is incoherent, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that he was being paid to spread confusion and to make the word "investigation" contemptible. He's about all I can get on my corporate-run car radio channels, in my rural area, late at night coming home from work. So I've turned him on a couple of times--for the first time, actually, in these last few weeks. It's better than listening to a "liberal" talk show host talking about his diet, I thought to myself. As I said, Jones is incoherent and toxic. I soon turned him off, and listened to the silence, and thought my own thoughts. Do you think he infected me? Do I have kooties? Jeez. Alex Jones.

I don't like this official story. I think it needs investigation. I explained some things I don't like about it and some suspicions I have. If that makes me a "conspiracy theorist," so be it.

I've been around for a long time, as a concerned and sometimes outraged citizen of this country. I've been a close observer of government and the corporate media, and a political and environmental activist. I don't trust official stories at all, on any subject. I have very good reason NOT to trust entities who have time and time again sold us war with its horrible carnage and other costs, with all the costs inflicted on the poor and on the "cannon fodder" and their families and communities, as well as on the blown up, shot up, burned up, maimed, sickened, displaced millions of people in the countries with which our leaders decide to be at war. War that makes no sense. War that has hidden motives. War that never ends. War that hugely profits the few.

Internal wars--against "drugs" (aka, the poor), against "commies," against "illegal immigrants." External wars--against MANUFACTURED enemies. And now, war against all of us, in the form of poverty and "Patriot Act" abrogation of our rights.

You bet I am suspicious when yet another terrorist act comes along to stoke the "anti-terrorist" industry that is bleeding all our resources and destroying our lives and our democracy. I am inherently suspicious of it, and I don't like this story. It doesn't add up. And it gets less believable every day.

I DON'T KNOW what is really going on or who may be responsible for it if it's a "false flag." There are many possibilities. One possibility is that it is as reported--two privileged kids blow everybody up for no apparent reason but with a bit of an Islamic tagline, this time. We've certainly seen that sort of mystifying horror a number of times over the last decade. But, in this case, I find it the least believable possibility.

Another possibility is that the older brother was being "groomed" for some purpose by whoever ordered him to be shot to death. Maybe he visited a shaman--this Armenian "exorcist" named "Misha" that his relatives are talking about--and something happened with that, making him no longer useful for a particular operation, so he was led into this operation and offed. Or maybe the "exorcist" was a CIA LSD specialist who brainwashed him, and the diabolical horror of this operation was the result.

It is, indeed, the second most horrible terrorist act we have ever suffered--blowing off the legs of marathon runners. Newton was probably the most horrible. I don't mean in numbers. I mean in the nature of the violence and its victims. Sometimes I think we are living in "Dante's Inferno," with all the perversities of somebody's imagined Hell let loose upon us, in circles of ever-increasing levels of torture and pain. We are a traumatized nation. It is quite obvious that some are CAPITALIZING on the trauma--making money, hand over fist--our own hard-earned tax money diverted into yet more "police state" and military boondoggles, every time one of these incidents occur. Beyond that, I think we have nutjob multi-billionaires who are quite capable of inflicting Dante's vision on us all, for profit, for power and for sadistic pleasure.

There are a number of possibilities as to foreign involvement as well. Foreign involvement with only a few cooperators here, or none. And we have a whole lot of precedents and history of our own secret agencies inflicting just such acts as these--acts that violently attack civil society, acts that confuse and divide and conquer, acts that inspire fascist "remedies," acts that aim at chaos and fear, all over Latin America, and in other regions.

No, I am not convinced by the tale we are told, nor by the younger brother's confession. We have only the report of very closed proceedings as to the confession. And I am not convinced that the older brother wasn't being closely watched and/or in the control of someone else, for this or some other purpose. There are too many unanswered questions in this story, too much unknown, and too many odd holes in the story. It does not hold together well. I will say that the odd holes in the story--such as the MANY Russian alerts to the U.S. about the older brother--aren't pointing anywhere very clearly yet. Could be moles here, who suppressed the Russian alerts, for instance. Could point TO Russia. Could also point to Russian suspicions of the U.S. (that the U.S. was sending a jihadist THERE?). There are too many things like this, that seem like frayed threads of an unseen, larger plot.

I'm keeping an open mind. I think it's a positive sign, as to U.S. complicity, that Obama opted for a civilian court. This should never have been an issue, regarding an American citizen, but at least he made the right decision, and one that MAY result in some questions being answered But I DO think that subversive plots can occur and have occurred within the government, without Obama's knowledge, and I think the Honduran coup was one of them. Obama then did a backfilling operation, covering up what had been a Bush Junta-designed coup, sprung on him six months into his administration, that in part was intended to embarrass him and shackle his efforts at "peace, respect and cooperation" in Latin America (his initial stated policy). And he seems to be still gravely shackled in that region, with many very bad policies, causing serious and unnecessary alienation. In how many other cases is something like that going on? Benghazi, for instance.

You have to be pretty naive, it seems to me, NOT to be suspicious of a government with tsunami waves of secrecy rolling beneath the surface. We DON'T KNOW what is going on within a whole lot of our own government. "Terrorism" has been used to seal it up tight. And those who have used "terrorism" that way are without conscience and are as bloody-minded as they can be. They feed on fear. And they have not gone away. We see them being "rehabilitated" one after another, by the Corporate media. They feed on fear. They feed on "terrorist" acts. You don't think they're capable of inflicting "terrorism" for that purpose on us? I do.

Matilda

(6,384 posts)
61. I don't know about a conspiracy, but some ineptitude on the part of the FBI/CIA perhaps.
Wed Apr 24, 2013, 02:33 AM
Apr 2013

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is also in some ways a victim, I think. The older brother seems to have been a bad egg, certainly in the last couple of years, but Dzhokhar seems to have been liked by schoolmates, and none have reported anything amiss with him. But not the brightest crayon in the box, which would make him all the more likely to follow others.

Look at the family history - parents separated, divorced two years ago, both returned, separately, to Dagestan, leaving their 17 year-old with only his apparently unbalanced older brother as a role model. Seventeen is still a vulnerable age, and he was probably simply following the leader. There's nothing in his past history to suggest what he would do, but there's plenty in Tamerlan's backstory to give cause for concern.

I just got the feeling, looking at the scenes last week of the house under seige, and the boy hiding in the boat, that he was probably very frightened at that point. I know people died because of him, and we can't ignore that, but I don't see a terrorist, just a silly boy, trying to copy his older, tougher brother.

I don't know how parents could just walk away from a boy that age, and I wonder how much their protestations now are simply guilt, and denial of their part in this sorry story.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
65. Well said, I agree ...
Wed Apr 24, 2013, 03:47 PM
Apr 2013

There's a part of me that, despite the heinous nature of the crimes, feels a tiny bit bad for this 19 year old kid that's going to bear the full brunt of consequences for this, simply because he survived.

I really wish Tamerlan had lived as well, because I think it's safe to speculate at this point that he was the 'mastermind' who led his gullible brother into this, and as such he's the one that I really would've wanted to see FRY.

You know what's interesting is that I've never seen anyone in the news yet mention WHICH of the two bombing sites the deaths actually occurred at (the first bomb or the second) ... were all three deaths from one bomb site, or was the death spread among both? And do they KNOW which of the two placed which bomb?

It would create an interesting conundrum if it were eventually discovered that Dzhokhar placed a bomb that did NOT actually kill anyone.

Matilda

(6,384 posts)
66. That's a very good point about the bombs.
Wed Apr 24, 2013, 11:12 PM
Apr 2013

It's an avenue his defence counsel should explore (although I believe he has a public defender, and I'm not sure they're
always the best).

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