Anti-Thatcher protest in London's Trafalgar Square

[steve2470]

Source: AP

LONDON (AP) — Hundreds of opponents of former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher partied in London's Trafalgar Square to celebrate her death, sipping booze and chanting "Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead."

Thatcher's most strident critics had long vowed to hold a gathering in central London on the Saturday following her passing, and the festivities were an indication of the depth of the hatred which some Britons still feel for their former leader.

As a handbag-toting Thatcher effigy made its way down the stairs in front of the National Gallery, the crowd erupted into cries of "Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Dead! Dead! Dead!" and sang lyrics from the "Wizard of Oz" ditty "Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead."

Photographs and video footage showed hundreds of people clutching their umbrellas in the rain between Nelson's Column and the National Gallery on the square. Official crowd estimates weren't immediately available.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Anti-Thatcher-protest-in-London-s-Trafalgar-Square-4432238.php

[alp227]

1. and i wonder where these kind of protests were in the US after Reagan's death in 2004.

Is it that Americans are either classier or that so few in the USA know about the evils of the Reagan admin?

[hrmjustin]

2. The Brits are just more honest.

[eShirl]

4. Or less brainwashed.

[dflprincess]

22. And the British media is covering these celebrations

unlike the U.S. media that subjected us to the week long Reaganpalooza.

And, I didn't hear one Democrat stand up and speak the truth about Reagan the way like Glenda Jackson spoke of Thatcher this week in the House of Commons.

[CBHagman]

55. Well, American media is run primarily by corporations...

...and just a few corporations at that, and Reagan partisans were able to kick up a fuss at a TV movie, so I can only image the apoplexy we'd see on the networks if someone departed from Respect the Departed.

That said, I do recall some articles covering serious critiques of Reagan and/or serious critics of Reagan when he departed.

[Beacool]

95. Know what, I don't even remember the Reaganpalooza.

I must have tuned it out. I'm grateful for that.

[whathehell]

6. Um, maybe not...According to my Brit former boyfriend, they are

just "meaner".

[Posteritatis]

3. Surprising as it may seem, Reagan was probably a lot less polarizing. (nt)

[Hissyspit]

5. He was trained as an actor and had the California cowboy/great communicator shit down.

Thatcher didn't.

Of course that made Reagan more dangerous and damaging considering the immoral things he did.

Should have been impeached for Iran/Contra.

[whathehell]

7. Yeah..He at least, had a "likeable" personality to many

As far as I could see, she had NOTHING.

[sevenseas]

14. She had one thing!

The full support of Rupert Murdoch's tabloids that kept reporting how wonderful she was.

[whathehell]

17. There you go..

and if I'm not mistaken, that bastard owns Fox News, right?

[NYC Liberal]

8. They were in New York at the RNC:

[freshwest]

34. I've never seen that - looks like they're carrying coffins, too.

[olddad56]

32. Wait until Cheney dies.

[Beacool]

38. That's what I've been asking myself.

How come no one protested when St. Ronnie died?

[MADem]

56. There were protests. They were more subdued because Reagan had been "punished" already,

for years, really, with the "Long Goodbye" of Alzheimer's Disease. His wife was very frail and Cheney was rude to her at the installation of the casket to lie in state--in fact, Ron, Jr. was on TV shortly after telling us all what a jerk Cheney was to leave his mother, blind and stumbling, in the rotunda of the Capitol to find the casket by feel.

But here's one example:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/12/1086749930374.html

Westboro Baptist did their thing as well...

[Beacool]

58. I didn't know that story.

Cheney is even more of a jerk than I already knew. Nancy is the only first lady who I really disliked while she was in the WH, but to leave a frail old woman to stumble around trying to find her husband's casket is more than rude. It's cruel.

Thanks for the link. I didn't recall any protests.

Westboro Baptist protested Reagan's funeral? One instance where I agree with them. Will wonders never cease? LOL.

[MADem]

60. He spoke about it on TV (justifiably angrily) and later(more calmly) in a NYT interview....

How did your mother feel about being ushered to her seat by President Bush?

Well, he did a better job than Dick Cheney did when he came to the rotunda. I felt so bad. Cheney brought my mother up to the casket, so she could pay her respects. She is in her 80's, and she has glaucoma and has trouble seeing. There were steps, and he left her there. He just stood there, letting her flounder. I don't think he's a mindful human being. That's probably the nicest way I can put it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/27/magazine/27QUESTIONS.html

[Beacool]

64. I read the article, thanks.

What a turd Cheney is at a basic level. There are some people whose politics are different than mine, but I don't consider them to be bad people. Cheney is just plain bad, no matter how you look at him.

[MADem]

68. You should have seen Ron, Jr. on television. He was spitting mad.

He gave a robust defense of his mother and called Cheney everything save a low-down, dirty shitheel. It was not long after the funeral, too.

Given the year (2004), when there was not much for an old school liberal to smile about, that conversation stuck with me, which is why it came so easily to mind all these years later!

[Beacool]

69. As anyone would if they saw their mom being mistreated.

[freshwest]

72. Agreed. But didn't know that happened to Nancy. A bad day, made worse by Cheney.

[marshall]

41. We're classier

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if the haters from Westboro Baptist don't launch a protest. It's right up their alley to grab the spotlight.

[olddots]

9. Britan is older and wiser than America

In "merica " everything we do is good unless it's pinko .

[whathehell]

13. Oh Please -- .Older" doesn't necessarily conflate with "wiser"

and if it does in their case, how come they've made so many mistakes, one of them

being the election of that awful right-winger, Thatcher, before we elected Reagan?

Some others might be that old, hideous class system which some Brits themselves,

claim continues in no small measure to this day.

Others would include their "empire", their racism (yup, they had their slaves and "wogs" too),

and their over all cruelty to their colonized and "lower" classes.

I KNOW we've made lots of mistakes ourselves, but as I've said to more than one

smug, superior-sounding Brit -- We learned it all from you!...That's an overstatement,

of course...We invented quite a few of our own screw- ups.

Truth be told, I like a lot about the UK and it's people, but I really can't abide knee-jerk anglophiles and/or europhiles.

[sevenseas]

15. I AGREE.

Also worth mentioning how they ignored Hitler until the bombs started dropping on their heads.

[whathehell]

16. Thank you...

The BS can get a bit deep around here at times.

[dipsydoodle]

18. Good of you to re-write the history of WW2.

The bombing started August 12, 1940 : the UK and France had both declared war on Germany 3rd September 1939.

Making stuff up never really helps an argument.

[Posteritatis]

19. Yeeeah, Americans don't get to throw stones in that particular glass house. (nt)

[LeftishBrit]

48. Not true. Yes, Britain appeased Hitler for too long, but this ended in September 1939 as a

result of Hitler's invasion of Poland.

The Blitz did not start until a year later, and was the result, not the cause, of Britain's involvement in the war.

[raccoon]

29. You think there is no class system in the US? It's the elephant in the living

room here.

[whathehell]

33. Since I'd guess that people of every nation on earth impart different levels of "prestige"

to different members of their respective societies on the basis, at least in western countries, of education, occupation, and income, I think I should define my terms.

When I use the term "class system", I refer to a collection of people whose authority is passed on from generation to generation relatively intact. An aristocracy with inherited power would be one example of this and a group of people with extreme inherited wealth that provides them power way beyond their numbers would be another example.

The US has no aristocracy with inherited governmental power. Hereditary titles for governmental office holders are prohibited by the Constitution.

The US had a group of extremely wealthy people with political power who could pass on their wealth and the powder with it to succeeding generations. This peaked during the gilded age, but was weakened by the inheritance laws and graduated income tax that were imposed during the early 20th century.

I recognize that there is an effort underway to return to the inherited economic advantages in place during the gilded age, and I assume that the members of this forum are trying their utmost to prevent this.

From a different perspective, I know of three Brits -- two personally -- who moved to the States and started careers here, citing the "class system" in the UK as their reason. One was a crack engineer who told me he had moved here because there were companies there who would never hire him, ability be damned, because of his "accent" (Northern/Geordie). As he said to me "You know that would never happen here", and I agreed, because endangered as it currently is, the concept of the "meritocracy" in the US has traditionally been far stronger than it's been in Britain.

The second was a pilot who, despite a stellar job reviews, and timed served in the RAF, was unable to get a commercial flying job at home. He claimed interviewers there seemed as interested in his father's lack of a college degree as in his ability to do the job. Since neither I, nor anyone I've talked to, can even IMAGINE an interviewer asking such a question here, I don't know if the government has bothered to make it illegal. .


The third is well-known actor, Michael Caine (real name Maurice Micklewhite) who came out publicly some years back, to express his affection for America and his deep appreciation for the huge part he felt it it played in his success. Michael Caine was the son of a fish monger and he claimed that in Britain, his chances were limited due to his "lower class" origins. He contrasted that with America, where he's been a huge success for decades, starting with his lead role in the 1960's flick "Alfie".

[daleo]

36. Social mobility is now higher in Europe than the U.S.

That is a well studied phenomenon. The vaunted social mobility in the U.S. is now pretty much a myth, though there were times in history when it was true.

[whathehell]

40. Yes, even the UK, I believe, squeaked by us

but this "well studied" phenomenon is recent, I'm afraid, especially in terms of the UK.


In addition, I'm afraid that "vaunted" social mobility hasn't been gone

quite long enough to have taken on the status of myth, LOL.

[daleo]

90. Maybe it's not a myth

But it is a legend, or at the least an anachronism.

[whathehell]

91. Maybe

an anachronism, but one of very recent vintage -- No one can say things won't improve.

[geek tragedy]

20. Takes great wisdom to elect Thatcher, John Major,

Tony Blair, and David Cameron as PM.

[truebrit71]

44. Ahem...the US elected Raygun twice, and the Idiot Bush twice...

...

[geek tragedy]

53. Neither nation is particularly wise. nt

[truebrit71]

54. ...evidently not...

[MADem]

61. Yeah, but UK kept Thatcher on for 12 years, with the capability to dump her at any time.

We vote and we're stuck for four years. UK doesn't have that excuse.

[truebrit71]

62. We're stuck until the PM calls one, or five years..whichever is first...

...and she used the Falklands and the Labour Party internal disarray to her advantage...

[MADem]

63. So she was "chosen" three times? How...er...Rooseveltian! nt

[MADem]

67. Am I misunderstanding the whole "motion of no confidence" proviso in the Westminster form of

government? That's certainly one way to get rid of a PM against their will, is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motions_of_no_confidence_in_the_United_Kingdom


I don't think it's just up to the PM...or am I missing something?

[truebrit71]

73. Very true..and very rare..

...usually used against highly unpopular PM's/Govts when there is a reticence to call a General Election..

[MADem]

74. Twenty times in the last 231 years isn't really common, but not really rare either.

It's certainly a tool in the toolbox, I'd say.

[smirkymonkey]

28. +1000

Agree. If would like to see more of this in the US. Maybe if horrible leaders saw how much they were reviled at death they might choose to live their lives differently.

[LeftishBrit]

49. To be honest, I don't think most horrible leaders would care too much what people say about them

when they're dead, so long as they retain power while alive.

[smirkymonkey]

50. Unfortnately, you are probably right on this one.

The bastards.

[LeftishBrit]

43. Thank you; but 'wise' would have been not to elect Maggie Thatcher in the first place!

[AngryAmish]

66. you are so right

[padruig]

10. Margaret Thatcher (and Scotland)

Thatcher was in power when the oil boom was exploding in the North Sea, she made sure that all the revenue of the exploitation were funneled south to London. She is also largely credited with relocating a quarter million jobs south of the border in the UK.

Similar celebrations were conducted in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

[dipsydoodle]

11. At which point Scotland hadn't devolved.

Where you would have expected revenues to go other than Westminster ?

Please provide links re. the relocation quarter of a million jobs to England.

[lunasun]

24. Glascow

[dipsydoodle]

12. Rain stopped play.

.

[Gumboot]

21. Just wait until Thatcher's funeral procession.

Remember how onlookers threw flowers onto the hearse carrying Princess Diana?

Thatcher's body is in for a very different kind of treatment.

Expect several hundred tons of rotten fruit & vegetables, plenty of animal sh*t, and lumps of coal to be thrown.

Not classy at all, but it's exactly the send-off she deserves.

As an expat Yorkshireman, I only wish I could be there to pay my disrespects to her.

[dflprincess]

23. As was noted on a Facebook page dedicated to Thatcher's death:

"It will be the first time the 21 gun salute is fired into the coffin."

(I have to admit I have laughed out loud at some of the comments I've read there.)

[Kennah]

25. Kinda silly, don't ya think? Wooden stakes are more likely to be effective.

[Posteritatis]

31. Thanks - I needed that excuse to clean my monitor.

... Also needed that drink though. Ah well, balance in all things.

[Beacool]

39. Lord forgive me, but that was funny.

[dflprincess]

46. There are some very funny comments about it all

I found it by first checking out the IsThatcherDeadYet and followed the link to FB that list several pages dedicated to showing her no respect.

The one that resulted in needing to clean my screen was:

"When I realised Margaret Thatcher was dead, I did a double fist pump and shouted, "Fucking brilliant!"
Everyone around me was disgusted, and looking back, I suppose it was out of order.
Especially as I was the first paramedic at the scene."

[Beacool]

47. ROTFLMAO!!!

People have such a wicked sense of humor.

[raccoon]

30. I only wish Americans were like this when Reagan died. nt

[freshwest]

35. His death to Alzheimmer's was a long drawn out affair, so the glee was diffused.

Reports of him doing odd things at his home would make it to the internet at times to be jeered about. IMO, he died a much worse death than Thatcher, probably. BTW, as far as Cheney goes, that beast will outlive most of us here.

[whathehell]

42. Sorry, but I think you may have to speak for yourself on that..

A lot of us are simply not possessed of the kind of hate required

to be "gleeful" on hearing of the death of an old pol with Alzheimer's.

I certainly didn't mourn Ronnie, I'm just not suffused with enough

vitriol to grave dance, and for that, frankly, I'm grateful.

[whathehell]

57. "His death due to Alzheimer's was a long drawn out affair so the glee was diffused"

"Reports of him doing odd things at home would then make its way to the internet, at times to be mocked"

Those are your words, and if you didn't mean them to be applied to yourself, perhaps you should have

separated yourself from them. You didn't do that. Nor did you express any personal distaste for them.

That being the case, I have no idea how I or anyone reading them was supposed to know they were

simply being "reported", especially if they hadn't, like myself, seen these reactions themselves.

In addition, I never "claimed" you to be anything, so while I certainly believe you, I'm not going to apologize

for something I didn't say nor for "misinterpreting" what was not clear to begin with.

[MADem]

71. I think what freshwest said was entirely clear, and I think you are, at minimum, nitpicking, and

at worst, goading and baiting freshwest for reasons that are unclear to the general reading audience.

I thought about hitting the alert button for a second, but I am not terribly into that system for petty stuff, so I thought I would, instead, tell you what I thought of your posts here, publicly.

I never for a moment thought that freshwest was a cheerleading grave dancer by explaining what the mood was back in 2004 when Reagan died. You went to great pains to try to twist those words, though, and I think you were very wrong to do so.

To a casual observer, it appears as though you are angry at freshwest for an unrelated reason and are trying to goad/bait the poster into saying something intemperate. If that's not the circumstance, "Oh well," but that is certainly what it looks like to me.

[whathehell]

75. Really?

Then I think we'll just have to chalk it up to an "oh well" and honest differences in perception,

because his words were, as I said, not clear to me. In contrast to what

you said, not only did I not "try to twist his words", I quoted him verbatim.

In addition, I have NOTHING at all against Freshwest, and, apart from

this exchange, can't remember being "at odds" with him (or you, for that matter)

on anything in the recent or distant past.

[MADem]

70. How nice that you did not grave-dance, but to suggest that others did not, or that the person

you are replying to was, personally, a grave dancer, is a bridge too far.

Google is your friend. Go use it, you'll see that many people were 'possessed of the kind of hate required' to snark like hell over the death of Reagan. In fact, if you look around a bit, some people are even digging the Gipper up to do a comparative exercise vis a vis him and Thatcher.

Why you want to take the self-evident comment of a poster here (who was only using basic powers of observation, not advocating in any way, shape or form) and try to make it personal is beyond me--reflects VERY poorly on you, IMO.

[whathehell]

77. Yes, I thought so, but you seem to be putting words in my mouth again,

as I never "suggested" a thing with regard to what others saw or did not,

I simply said that I didn't see it, so now, If you'll excuse me,

I have an evening to enjoy.

[MADem]

78. You put the words in your own mouth, in your two rather accusatory posts.

Have a nice evening.

[whathehell]

79. Um no, and your need to continually couch your accusations with qualifiers, i.e. "rather" accusatory

and "suggests" tells me that you aren't confident in your own accusations, which is a good thing.


When you figure out what's really got your panties in a twist, let me know.

Until then, I'll be saying adieu.

[MADem]

80. By your words we certainly do know you. And I'm quite confident in my assertions. nt

[whathehell]

81. By your weasel words we know you too, dear,

and you're not confident at all.

[MADem]

83. Keep digging. nt

[whathehell]

84. Keep failing. n/t

[MADem]

85. You're the one with the problem. Your words betray you. nt

[whathehell]

86. Keep telling yourself that dear, because your powers of persuasion seem to be failing

with everyone else.

[MADem]

87. You're the one who failed, with false accusations, "dear."

Rather shoddy effort at thread derailment, getting personal, deliberate misinterpretation that is obvious to anyone with a 3rd grade reading level, etc. For someone who claims to not be 'suffused with vitriol,' all I can say is by your own words we know you.

whathehell (11,002 posts)
42. Sorry, but I think you may have to speak for yourself on that..

A lot of us are simply not possessed of the kind of hate required

to be "gleeful" on hearing of the death of an old pol with Alzheimer's.

I certainly didn't mourn Ronnie, I'm just not suffused with enough

vitriol to grave dance, and for that, frankly, I'm grateful.

whathehell (11,002 posts)
57. "His death due to Alzheimer's was a long drawn out affair so the glee was diffused"

"Reports of him doing odd things at home would then make its way to the internet, at times to be mocked"

Those are your words, and if you didn't mean them to be applied to yourself, perhaps you should have

separated yourself from them. You didn't do that. Nor did you express any personal distaste for them.

That being the case, I have no idea how I or anyone reading them was supposed to know they were

simply being "reported", especially if they hadn't, like myself, seen these reactions themselves.

In addition, I never "claimed" you to be anything, so while I certainly believe you, I'm not going to apologize
for something I didn't say nor for "misinterpreting" what was not clear to begin with. whathehell (11,002 posts)

[whathehell]

88. Keep going, dear.....At any moment, someone may give you that attention you so obviously crave

Unfortunately, it can no longer be me...Some of us, you see, have this thing called 'a life"

You might want to look into getting one of your own. Until then, I'm afraid, you'll just

have to mosey on up to the Big I Room...Buh bye!

[MADem]

89. By your words we know you. nt

[daleo]

37. They could throw dead flowers

Dead and dried up, of course.

[Ash_F]

45. I don't get why people are happy she died.

They should be mournful that she made it to the grave without receiving justice for her crimes.

[DonCoquixote]

51. When the Bushes go to join Maggie

I hope we do something half this honest.

And yes, I also throw in St. Bill of the cigar smoke in that mix.

[Beacool]

59. We won't, it's not in our psyche.

[whathehell]

82. No, I don't think it is

and I'd call that a good thing.

[daleo]

92. The different political systems may be responsible too

In Britain, deference is reserved for the queen or king, who is supposed to represent the state and the people, symbolically. The PM is a mere politician and therefore is not considered to be due any inordinate level of respect. For example, he/she can be turfed out any day that the parliament decides to do so. The monarch, on the other hand, is in that role for life.

In the U.S.presidential system, the president is both politician and head of state, and therefore is accorded a certain amount of respect due to the latter role. I think the U.S. president exists somewhere greater than a PM, but lesser than a monarch, in the collective unconscious of the nation, and therefore "unseemly" displays are less likely at presidential funerals, even among people who were very opposed politically and ideologically.

[Beacool]

94. You're correct, but I also think that Thatcher screwed up many lives.

Thatcher was PM for 11 years, by the end of her term even her own party was sick of her. As much as St. Ronnie damaged us, I think that Thatcher did even worse in Britain. They have a reason to hate her.

[daleo]

96. No argument there

Together, Reagan and Thatcher set the progress of the entire world back, in many important ways. Reagan was the friendly face of the worse aspects of human nature, a smiling champion of greed and indifference to suffering.

[steve2470]

76. Lady Thatcher funeral arrangements under fire as Big Ben is silenced

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/15/lady-thatcher-funeral-arrangements-criticised

The bells of Big Ben and the Great Clock at Westminster are to be silenced as a mark of respect during Wednesday's ceremonial funeral for Lady Thatcher, the Commons Speaker has announced.

As unease about the scale of the funeral spread across political parties, John Bercow told MPs that silencing the bells was the most fitting tribute to the late prime minister following a number of representations. It is thought the bells were last silenced as a mark of respect during the funeral of Winston Churchill in 1965.

But the statement by Bercow came as Diane Abbott, the shadow health minister, became the first member of the Labour frontbench to criticise the funeral, which will involve more than 700 military personnel from the three armed forces.

One senior Tory is planning to boycott the funeral on the grounds that the Queen, whose aides are understood to have raised concerns about associating a divisive prime minister with the military on such a large scale, has been placed in an invidious position. It is understood that a number of Tories blame Gordon Brown for pushing for such a large scale funeral for Thatcher when he was prime minister, giving the palace no choice but to accept an invitation for the Queen on the grounds that the ceremony has cross-party consensus.

[snooper2]

93. I wish people would just leave her spirit being alone...

It's hovering around hounded by insults and derogatory remarks crying in sadness--


poor spirit being