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Beacool

(30,244 posts)
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:40 AM Apr 2013

Pope Francis Advisory Council To Reform Church With Permanent Panel Of 8 Cardinals

Source: The Huffington Post

By NICOLE WINFIELD 04/13/13



VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis marked his first month as pontiff on Saturday by naming eight cardinals from around the globe to a permanent advisory group to counsel him on running the Catholic Church and reforming the Vatican bureaucracy – a bombshell announcement that indicates he intends a shift in how the papacy should function.

The panel includes only one current Vatican official; the rest are cardinals from North, Central and South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Australia – a clear indication that Francis wants to reflect the universal nature of the church as he goes about governing.

The church is growing and counts most of the world's Catholics in the southern hemisphere while it's shrinking in Europe, yet the Vatican and the 200-strong College of Cardinals, traditionally the pope's primary advisers, remain heavily European.

In the run-up to the conclave that elected Francis the first Latin American pope one month ago, cardinals demanded the Vatican be more responsive to their needs on the ground, and said the bureaucracy itself must be overhauled. Including representatives from each continent in a permanent advisory panel to the pope would seem to go a long way toward answering those calls.


Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/13/pope-francis-reform-church_n_3075838.html



I think that the Cardinals may just have made the right choice when choosing Cardinal Bergoglio as the new Pope. I wish them luck in trying to reform the Curia, it won't be easy.

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Pope Francis Advisory Council To Reform Church With Permanent Panel Of 8 Cardinals (Original Post) Beacool Apr 2013 OP
Liking the lack of Curia insiders in that group. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #1
Exactly!! Beacool Apr 2013 #2
I agree that term limits for the Curia would be a great idea, but it's unlikely to happen. It Cal33 Apr 2013 #43
Didn't he tell Curia members he needed them to "stay on for now"? Hekate Apr 2013 #53
Next step is to announce that the Pope is not infallible LiberalFighter Apr 2013 #3
Learn what the idea of infallibility actually means. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #5
It must be pretty badly misnamed, then. nt caseymoz Apr 2013 #9
Meh. The definition's quite specific and has been set down for centuries. Posteritatis Apr 2013 #10
Easy sneezy. timdog44 Apr 2013 #18
Or people can spend 30 seconds with Google and figure it out themselves. Posteritatis Apr 2013 #19
Still can not timdog44 Apr 2013 #20
As far as the Pope is concerned, okasha Apr 2013 #21
Wrong. rug Apr 2013 #22
Thanks rug. timdog44 Apr 2013 #23
You're welcome. People on both sides of religion get prickly quickly. rug Apr 2013 #24
Because we should all be acquainted with the marvelous caseymoz Apr 2013 #33
Why not do them a favor and spell it out for them? Below is what I learned in catechism class Cal33 Apr 2013 #47
Sigh... AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #36
Yes. I learned that Popes are like light switches. Heywood J Apr 2013 #42
If that were the case, there would be ex cathedra statements every week. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #44
Oh, I understand about speaking ex-cathedra. I was a good Catholic boy for years. Heywood J Apr 2013 #46
Reading suggestion for an interesting discussion of infallibility: AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #56
He's only considered infallible in extremely limited circumstances Ken Burch Apr 2013 #61
Not again... Drahthaardogs Apr 2013 #65
With 50% women on the panel, I'm sure, efhmc Apr 2013 #4
+100 theHandpuppet Apr 2013 #50
Why would anyone be excited about this? skepticscott Apr 2013 #6
For a Church that moves slowly it is an interesting development, but I will take a wait hrmjustin Apr 2013 #25
This is a "holy crap" moment in the Church TrogL Apr 2013 #34
I am happy to see he wants to do some reforming. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #35
Shaken? Hardly. skepticscott Apr 2013 #40
Because this rarely happens in the Church? AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #37
It would be pretty difficult skepticscott Apr 2013 #41
And he's been in the office for how long now? A month? AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #45
Slamming? Oh, please skepticscott Apr 2013 #49
And who's to say that he won't set in motion reform? AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #55
Who's to say he will? You? skepticscott Apr 2013 #57
How about having nuns who've spent their lives doing missionary The Second Stone Apr 2013 #7
Not a bad idea. Beacool Apr 2013 #8
Nuns should have a seat at table, period. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #38
Vatican III: The Search for Spock. Tommy_Carcetti Apr 2013 #11
... Javaman Apr 2013 #12
Funny guy!! Beacool Apr 2013 #13
Bravo! Paulie Apr 2013 #17
It's been a long time... WinstonSmith4740 Apr 2013 #14
You've got it, all right Hekate Apr 2013 #54
Had to giggle... WinstonSmith4740 Apr 2013 #66
I went to the classes with a friend; one night a man came in to warn us about college!!! Hekate Apr 2013 #67
This could be promising shenmue Apr 2013 #15
Looks like this guy is a reformer. I hope the church lets him do it. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #16
Lets him do what? skepticscott Apr 2013 #26
Well like you i am skeptical that anything will really be reformed. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #27
In other words, nothing but superficial fluff skepticscott Apr 2013 #29
Well maybe God would listen to you my friend. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #30
He has a "chance" whether I give him one or not skepticscott Apr 2013 #31
Well i think we will put you in the not impressed category. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #32
yay! the pope formed a *committee* Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #28
Yet it is only through this committee that change can happen. This is how things Cal33 Apr 2013 #48
maybe the church and obama need to change more than advisors then. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #63
It's too early for me to be saying anything about Pope Francis, but Obama seems Cal33 Apr 2013 #68
Doncha know? theHandpuppet Apr 2013 #62
Like Watching Grass Grow bucolic_frolic Apr 2013 #39
I'd like to see more St. Louis Cardinals on the panel. olddad56 Apr 2013 #51
I would recommend Yadier Molina - he's one tough little dude! Red State Rebel Apr 2013 #71
Next item on the agenda: bring in the nuns! Hekate Apr 2013 #52
I am hopeful this pope JNelson6563 Apr 2013 #58
Me too. Beacool Apr 2013 #59
Honestly, I'd prefer not to give a shit about any of this. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #60
Pope Francis Supports Crackdown on US Nuns muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #64
Isn't it possible for Pope Francis to both support the humanitarian work of US nuns, and also Cal33 Apr 2013 #69
He's not 'cracking down on abortion'; he's cracking down on the nuns muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #70
I see what you mean. These nuns are devoted to humanitarian work, and Church authorities Cal33 Apr 2013 #72

Beacool

(30,244 posts)
2. Exactly!!
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:56 AM
Apr 2013

I think that's precisely why the Cardinals chose Francis. He was an outsider, they didn't want another European. I wish him well. The bureaucrats at the Vatican are just as bad as the ones in DC. They will push back any measure that changes their cushy lives. I think that term limits for the Curia would be a great idea.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
43. I agree that term limits for the Curia would be a great idea, but it's unlikely to happen. It
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:43 AM
Apr 2013

looks as though Francis I will make a good pope -- perhaps a great one.
Remember John XXIII? I think of him as a great pope, the best one of
the 20th Century. It's unfortunate that he had only 4-1/2 years. Just
imagine how much he would have accomplished if he had had 20 years!

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
53. Didn't he tell Curia members he needed them to "stay on for now"?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

I am sure I read that in the early days of his papacy (and my goodness, we are still in the early days aren't we?) -- that turn of phrase really raised my eyebrows.

LiberalFighter

(50,491 posts)
3. Next step is to announce that the Pope is not infallible
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:19 PM
Apr 2013

If he was they wouldn't need advisers or investigations.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
10. Meh. The definition's quite specific and has been set down for centuries.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:52 PM
Apr 2013

Look it up. It's not difficult.

It's not my problem if people insist on embarrassing themselves by expounding on their own ignorance every single time they want to sound edgy and snarky about the papacy.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
18. Easy sneezy.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:14 PM
Apr 2013

When a person is called 'infallible', this can mean any of the following:

Some (or all) statements or teachings made by this person can be relied on to be certainly true.
This person always makes good and moral choices, and his actions may never be considered immoral or evil.
This person is always right, and never wrong or incorrect.

Not sure what the big deal is?

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
19. Or people can spend 30 seconds with Google and figure it out themselves.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:34 PM
Apr 2013

That should be enough time not to pull up dictionary definitions, which are usually meaningless when matters of specialized vocabulary like science, law, or, yes, theology come up.

The term's extremely precisely defined, and that definition's been out there for a couple of centuries. If people want to talk about something, they don't get a free pass on being clueless about it.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
20. Still can not
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 03:41 PM
Apr 2013

decide if I am right or wrong on the definition.

Please educate me. Are we talking about the pope or the bible or what?

Maybe easier if you put the definition there that you want.

And thus the problem I have here on DU, the not wanting to educate as to what people are talking about.

timdog44

(1,388 posts)
23. Thanks rug.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:41 PM
Apr 2013

And this is off thread, but if the definition of Papal infallibility had been what was meant, it would have been easier to get to this point and educated people at the same time. Seemed to be a lot of nasty to get to here.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
24. You're welcome. People on both sides of religion get prickly quickly.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:43 PM
Apr 2013

I find the entire subject fascinating.

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
33. Because we should all be acquainted with the marvelous
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:48 PM
Apr 2013

. . . inventions of Vatican bureaucracy? Or the figments the Church chooses to call truths?

What you don't realize is the dogma's only important or impressive if you believe in the Church, believe in Christ and believe in God, not necessarily in that order. If you don't believe in those, it's still not going to look important, helpful or even convincing. I no more need to understand infallibility than I need understand the Thetan mysteries of auditing in Scientology. They're both equally cults to me.

Please tell me how the definition makes the claim of infallibility either convincing or awesome. As much as I hate to lower standards this much, please tell me how it even makes it sane? It's only through the lens of faith that it looks like gold.

If I take the "real" definition and call it bullshit and enumerate why, would you feel I was being any less unfair? Somehow, I don't think so, because I've taken the definition before and done just that, and the Catholics I talked to apparently still felt I was being unfair.

In fact, I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and then went to a Catholic University. The religion wasn't enlightening; it was a nightmare. And I'm determined to forget as much of its doctrine and dogma as I can. That's how edifying and uplifting I found it. I've been there before. You don't want me to tell you what I think of the definition of infallibility.
 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
47. Why not do them a favor and spell it out for them? Below is what I learned in catechism class
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:04 PM
Apr 2013

as a kid in school:

The pope is infallible only when he officially announces as Head of the Church
some doctrine concerning faith or morals for all Catholics to believe in. Those
who don't accept it are no longer Catholics (automatically excommunicated,
even when no official excommunication has ever been issued by church
authorities). The doctrines are mostly something that the Church has been
following for centuries anyway. The pronouncement, usually already accepted
by Catholics in general, and recommended by the pope's advisers in particular,
makes it formal. Needless to say, new pronouncements are something very
rare.

Examples to allay some common misconceptions:

1. Let's suppose the pope is teaching religion to a group of adults, or of
children. He could make mistakes. He isn't making any official pronouncements
for the whole Church to follow.

2. A doctrine concerning faith: There are three Persons in one God - the Father
the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Those who don't believe it are no longer Catholics.
It is an article of faith.

Jesus ascended body and soul into heaven. This, too, is an article of faith.

3. About morality: The Inquisition was practiced by the Church for six centuries.
It certainly was immoral. But the popes never made any official pronouncements
about all Catholics having to believe in it as a doctrine. The Catholic Church
simply practiced the Inquisition for six hundred years. This has nothing to do with
the popes' infallibility whatsoever.

Some popes did keep mistresses and have fathered children. This, too, was immoral,
but it, too, has nothing to do with the popes' infallibility whatsoever. It was the
personal immorality of the popes concerned.

I personally think that many of the doctrines are about matters that are
important in the eyes of the Church, but are of not much value to people, or
perhaps not important to God Himself. Does He really care much one way or
another if you believed He is made up of three persons (Father, Son and Holy
Spirit), and would He condemn you to hell for all eternity if you did not believe
this?

I think it's much more important to Him that human beings treated one another
with kindness and respect. Jesus Himself said of the Commandments: The
greatest of these is: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, thy
strength ...... and the second is equal to this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.

The Inquisition certainly was not an example of acts of kindness and love! Jesus
would have condemned it, if He had been on earth at that time. These Church
clerics had become mad with power, and their sadism showed through.

As with politics, it was often the ambitious and sick ones lusting after power, who
got into the top positions within the Church. Things became better when the
people rebelled, and Church clerics have far less worldly power today than they
used to have in the past. Their behavior improved correspondingly. "Power
corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely." This adage applies to all
humans, whether in politics or in religion.


AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
36. Sigh...
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:40 AM
Apr 2013

Here we go again...the pope is **only** infallible when he is speaking ex cathedra...which has only happened a handful of times since 1870, the last being 1950, with the annunciation of Mary.

I'm an ex-Catholic and even I get tired of reading this meme over and over and over and over...

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
42. Yes. I learned that Popes are like light switches.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:24 AM
Apr 2013

Infallibility is off one moment, on the next, and then off again.

I would personally prefer it if he appointed some new cardinals to this panel, ones that weren't brought in by JPII and Benedict - the creators of this mess in the first place. Right now, you have cardinals who created the mess trying to fix the mess and that doesn't sit right with me.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
44. If that were the case, there would be ex cathedra statements every week.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:52 AM
Apr 2013

Infallibility only applies when a question concerning faith and morals comes into play, and the last time that happened, it was 70 years ago. I think the misconception comes in because Catholics are seen as accepting whatever the Pope says as being infallible. While some may believe that everything that comes out of the man's mouth is infallible, that's not what the doctrine of papal infallibility means. (Rug can probably give a better explanation.)

The bottom line is, change -- FINALLY -- is coming to the Church. It most likely won't bear fruit in our lifetime. I'm looking at this as the resumption of the reform that stalled with the death of Pope John XXIII, and while I will never return to Catholicism, I'm hoping that this begins a positive chapter in its overall sorry history.

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
46. Oh, I understand about speaking ex-cathedra. I was a good Catholic boy for years.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 11:27 AM
Apr 2013

I just never really accepted the idea of turning infallibility on and off like a light switch, depending on the context.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
56. Reading suggestion for an interesting discussion of infallibility:
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:58 PM
Apr 2013

"Papal Sins," by Garry Wills.

This was not a popular move among many in the Church when it was proposed over a century ago.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
61. He's only considered infallible in extremely limited circumstances
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:39 PM
Apr 2013

only on certain topics(faith and morals)and even THEN only when he's speaking "ex cathedra" (that is, while sitting on a special papal throne.)

Therefore, for example, non of the harsh dictums John Paul II and Benedict issued on matters like contraception, LGBT issues, divorce and women in the priesthood, for example, are considered infallible and all could, in theory be reversed by a future pontiff.

efhmc

(14,709 posts)
4. With 50% women on the panel, I'm sure,
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:22 PM
Apr 2013

to represent the views and ideas of all Catholics. Oh, I forgot the penis is the ruling body of law in the CC.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
50. +100
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:36 PM
Apr 2013

How unfortunate that what should be an obvious omission is simply skipped over by the slavish minions.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
6. Why would anyone be excited about this?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:24 PM
Apr 2013

Just bureaucratic show and shuffling, that will not change ANY fundamental doctrine or policy of the RCC.

When the pope announces that:

Every priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal or pope involved in the sexual abuse of children or the covering up and abetting of such crimes will be reported to the civil authorities of the countries in which those crimes were committed, and that all heretofore secret Vatican documents regarding said activities will be provided to aid in prosecution.

Women will be allowed to become priests.

The Catholic Church will cease attempts to block laws recognizing same sex marriages as legal.

The Catholic Church will cease trying to dictate public policy on contraception.

Then come and talk to us. Until then, this is just fluff.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
25. For a Church that moves slowly it is an interesting development, but I will take a wait
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:38 PM
Apr 2013

and see approach.

TrogL

(32,818 posts)
34. This is a "holy crap" moment in the Church
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 01:02 AM
Apr 2013

I don't think you understand how this and a few other things in the past few weeks (like the feet washing thing) have shaken the Roman Catholic world.

I wouldn't be surprised if the new inner council recommends exactly that.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
40. Shaken? Hardly.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:00 AM
Apr 2013

If any of the things I posted were to happen, then you'd see some world-shaking. But all the foot-washing has done is honked off some conservative Catholics (who it doesn't take much to honk off in any case). Nothing that really matters has changed in the RCC as a result.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
37. Because this rarely happens in the Church?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:44 AM
Apr 2013

If you're looking for changes to happen in the next five minutes, then you WILL be disappointed. The fact that he is opening up the Church for reevaluation and new dialogue is notable.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
41. It would be pretty difficult
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:05 AM
Apr 2013

for anything the Catholic Church does to "disappoint" me. The most that can be said so far for the new pope is that he is more conscious of the church's image problem than his predecessor, and recognizes the need for better PR and good photo ops. But he has accomplished exactly nothing of substance.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
45. And he's been in the office for how long now? A month?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:57 AM
Apr 2013

Already what he has said and done (with this latest announcement) has been more than Benedict did in all his time in the chair.

Of course Francis realizes the damage that has been done. That was something else that Benedict hardly ever did, except when he was pressed to do so, and then only grudgingly. I think he is committed to making changes and cleaning out the curia (which this sounds like to me) is an excellent place to start.

I'm keeping an open mind; yours, apparently, will not be changed no matter what, which is okay. But to slam the man for not coming in and changing the whole culture overnight is a bit unfair, IMO.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
49. Slamming? Oh, please
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:23 PM
Apr 2013

I've not said one thing about him in this thread that wasn't true. If you'd care to dispute that, go ahead. I've said that he deserves no real praise so far, because he's done nothing of any real substance so far. If the best you can say about him is that he's better than Ratzi, you're reaching.

And I listed the specific things he could do that WOULD change my mind about him in post 6. Did you bother to read that, or do you just prefer to make shit up, so that you can smear me as closed-minded?

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
55. And who's to say that he won't set in motion reform?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:56 PM
Apr 2013

Got news for you...the Church isn't like other institutions. Change will not come quickly, but ask any Catholic -- especially those here -- and the signs are encouraging.

Have a good day. I'm done with the aggressive bullshit.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
57. Who's to say he will? You?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 05:08 PM
Apr 2013

Is he going to do it in defiance of unalterable Catholic doctrine?

Call us when that happens, won't you?

And if you don't like aggressive, don't smear people as closed-minded.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
7. How about having nuns who've spent their lives doing missionary
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:32 PM
Apr 2013

work around the world be in charge of auditing the books?

Beacool

(30,244 posts)
8. Not a bad idea.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 12:44 PM
Apr 2013

I went to boarding school in high school. Nuns don't mess around. Although my nuns (Sisters of Mercy) were progressive and great people. This reminds me of Tina Fey's comments about nuns during the 2008 primaries: "Bitches get stuff done".

http://www.ucbcomedy.com/videos/play/1017/bitches-get-stuff-done

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
38. Nuns should have a seat at table, period.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:45 AM
Apr 2013

They are more in touch than most priests, most notably those in the curia.

WinstonSmith4740

(3,048 posts)
14. It's been a long time...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:17 PM
Apr 2013

I left the Catholic Church over 40 years ago, but I LIKE this guy. He can only take one step at a time, but his approach of humility instead of pomp is a big one. I love the way he's giving the people like Santorum fits!!

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
54. You've got it, all right
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:44 PM
Apr 2013

Some 50 years ago I was on the verge of taking instruction in the Church of my beloved Granny (I was 15 y.o.) but I just could not make the jump into a place that didn't think that married women should use birth control. Call me a pre-feminist of 1962, but there you have it. Also, I thought the Transubstantiation of the Host was a profound metaphor, but not actual...

So I didn't. And ultimately I became extremely glad I did not. But I still care and I still hope that the Church will clean itself up and enter the 21st century in meaningful ways.

One of the most logical early things Pope Francis could do, in my opinion, is let priests marry. It would be a relatively easy lift, because they already allow Episcopalian priests to convert and bring their wives and kids along.

And from there....

WinstonSmith4740

(3,048 posts)
66. Had to giggle...
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 09:34 PM
Apr 2013
Church of my beloved Granny

But that's the way it was! I did go through with the whole thing, but it wasn't easy. I got chicken pox twice (!) each time about a week before confirmation. The time I did go through with it I was about 14 and already beginning to question. Like so many of the kids I was confirmed with (we were all in our teens), we went through it because it was important to our parents, but we all thought it was more than a little crazy. Again, about a week before confirmation, my class had played a great game of "what if" with our teacher, and she just couldn't handle it. As I told my mom years later, God was trying to tell her that I'd find my own way some day, it just wasn't going to be Catholicism.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
67. I went to the classes with a friend; one night a man came in to warn us about college!!!
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:47 PM
Apr 2013

According to him, college was full of irreligious ideas and some of the professors were (blanch) commies, and on and on. There was a local Catholic college, which I suppose he was trying to steer us toward, but there was also a local state University, which is where I was headed if my mother had anything to say about it.

For my mother, a college degree was like the Holy Grail. She used to practically swoon over the great play of ideas, not be afraid of them. She taught me to think. So I have to say that one lecture was a real turn-off.

Blessed be.

shenmue

(38,501 posts)
15. This could be promising
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

He may never be as liberal as some of us may want, but he's made some steps in the right direction. Hope we see more. Good for him.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
26. Lets him do what?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:00 PM
Apr 2013

What do you see him "reforming" that really matters and isn't just superficial fluff? Be specific.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
27. Well like you i am skeptical that anything will really be reformed.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:04 PM
Apr 2013

I do think there will be some reform to the curia, and the banks. But in terms of women, gays and celibacy I see no changes from this pope. We can always pray the Holy Spirit moves him in to the progressive side.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
29. In other words, nothing but superficial fluff
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:19 PM
Apr 2013

And how long have you been praying to the "holy spirit" to move popes to the "progressive" side? Doesn't seem to be anyone listening.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
30. Well maybe God would listen to you my friend.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:21 PM
Apr 2013

But yes my heart tells me that nothing really will get done but you never know. He just got in there so give the man a chance. It takes time.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
31. He has a "chance" whether I give him one or not
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:25 PM
Apr 2013

But he has been a willing and enthusiastic supporter of a sexist and homophobic organization for most of his life. He gets no credit and no slack for shuffling around a few deck chairs for PR purposes. Until he actually accomplishes something significant in terms of "reform" he's as guilty as all the rest.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
48. Yet it is only through this committee that change can happen. This is how things
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:21 PM
Apr 2013

are done in the Church. To come to any educated guess as to how
progressive this new pope will be, it might help to know something
about each of the 8 cardinals he has appointed to be members of
this committee.

In the same vein, to have an idea how Obama will handle the economy,
just know something about the economists he appoints to advise him.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
68. It's too early for me to be saying anything about Pope Francis, but Obama seems
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 10:43 AM
Apr 2013

to overvalue his idea of bipartisanship. In fact, he seems to be
obsessed with it. Having bipartisanship with an extreme rightist is
like having Al Capone as your business partner.

In general I'd agree bipartisanship is an excellent idea. But one has
to choose one's partner carefully. Of all people, Obama has chosen
a sociopath -- and sociopaths are known to be incapable of change!
But Obama is so obsessed with bipartisanship, that he doesn't see this.

I anticipate that the coming 4 years will be like the past 4 years. The
good news is that, a possible change of our country to becoming a
dictatorship has been delayed for the moment. It remains to be seen
what the elections of November, 2016, will bring.

Returning to Pope Francis, I like to remain optimistic. I hope that
he may turn out to be like another John XXIII, and with more than a
mere 4-1/2 years.

By the way, this present pope is the last one mentioned by both
Nostradamus and a 12th Century Irish mystic and saint (whose name
I can't recall). Both of them ended their lists of future popes with him
as the last item on their lists.



theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
62. Doncha know?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 11:35 PM
Apr 2013

LBN has now become the place for your daily Vatican fix. Silly me -- I thought DU already had a religion/theology forum.

bucolic_frolic

(42,663 posts)
39. Like Watching Grass Grow
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:55 AM
Apr 2013

Has any institution ever significantly changed itself?

Is this like changing Big Five accounting firms?

Or swapping index funds?

If he is planning something big, the mutiny is already being planned.

"Bureaucracy is the form of government in which everybody is deprived of political freedom, of the power to act; for the rule by Nobody is not no-rule, and where all are equally powerless we have a tyranny without a tyrant.
— Hannah Arendt (On Violence) "

http://www.cereoso.com/hannah-arendt/quotes/2

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
52. Next item on the agenda: bring in the nuns!
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:20 PM
Apr 2013

So far so good, with Pope Francis. Each step of the way he is announcing change by his actions.

Keeping my fingers crossed, so to speak.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
58. I am hopeful this pope
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 05:28 PM
Apr 2013

may actually do some good during his tenure. Time will tell. It would be nice to see a leader from Christendom put an emphasis on things like helping the disadvantaged and such. Walking the walk, as it were...

We'll have to wait and see.

Julie

Beacool

(30,244 posts)
59. Me too.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 05:46 PM
Apr 2013

I don't expect much change in dogma, it IS the Catholic church after all. But, I think that this Pope does care for the needy and I'm curious where he'll take the Church in the future.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
60. Honestly, I'd prefer not to give a shit about any of this.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:31 PM
Apr 2013

But having been raised and educated Catholic, I do have a cultural connection to the Church, whether I like it or not. And while any "reforms" may be too little too late in countries like the U.S., the influence of Catholicism on the developing world - Latin America in particular - is far from negligible. Whatever you or I or anyone else might prefer, the world as a whole won't be secularized anytime soon, and the non-religious are still distinctly a minority. Which is why - like it or not - this stuff is important.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,149 posts)
64. Pope Francis Supports Crackdown on US Nuns
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:03 PM
Apr 2013
The Vatican said Monday that Pope Francis supports the Holy See's crackdown on the largest umbrella group of U.S. nuns, dimming hopes that a Jesuit pope whose emphasis on the poor mirrored the nuns' own social outreach would take a different approach than his predecessor.

The Vatican last year imposed an overhaul of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious after determining the sisters took positions that undermined Catholic teaching on the priesthood and homosexuality while promoting "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith." Investigators praised the nuns' humanitarian work, but accused them of ignoring critical issues, including fighting abortion.

On Monday, the heads of the conference met with the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Archbishop Gerhard Mueller, who is in charge of the crackdown. It was their first meeting since Mueller was appointed in July.

In a statement, Mueller's office said he told the sisters that he had discussed the matter recently with Francis and that the pope had "reaffirmed the findings of the assessment and the program of reform."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pope-francis-supports-crackdown-us-nuns-18957861#.UWwyK8Vh6Bo


A lesson for those who thought the new pope was somehow concerned more about humanitarian work, rather than fighting abortion.
 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
69. Isn't it possible for Pope Francis to both support the humanitarian work of US nuns, and also
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:25 AM
Apr 2013

crack down on abortion?

Try to understand the Catholic Church's belief that each time conception takes place, God creates
a new soul. And also: (1) Abortion = murder. (2) The aborted fetus is already dead, the soul has
departed, AND NO BAPTISM CAN TAKE PLACE.

So, this soul cannot enter heaven because it hasn't been baptized, nor does it deserve to go
to hell because it hasn't committed any evil. So, this soul will be in limbo for all eternity. Each
abortion is an act that condemns a soul to limbo for all eternity!

What would you do, if you were a fervent believer in the above principles? That's what the
Catholic clergy believe.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,149 posts)
70. He's not 'cracking down on abortion'; he's cracking down on the nuns
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:42 AM
Apr 2013

who were criticised by the report for not spending time condemning abortion. It's not that the nuns were doing something wrong; it's that they were spending too much time doing something right (ie the humanitarian work), and not enough time "casting the first stone at the adulteress", so to speak.

On June 25, 2010, Bishop Blair presented further documentation on the content of the
LCWR’s Mentoring Leadership Manual and also on the organizations associated with the
LCWR, namely Network and The Resource Center for Religious Institutes. The
documentation reveals that, while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR
promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the Church’s social doctrine, it is silent on
the right to life from conception to natural death, a question that is part of the lively public
debate about abortion and euthanasia in the United States. Further, issues of crucial
importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life
and human sexuality, are not part of the LCWR agenda in a way that promotes Church
teaching. Moreover, occasional public statements by the LCWR that disagree with or
challenge positions taken by the Bishops, who are the Church’s authentic teachers of faith and
morals, are not compatible with its purpose.

http://www.usccb.org/upload/Doctrinal_Assessment_Leadership_Conference_Women_Religious.pdf


They are spending too much time doing good works, and not enough time dabbling in American politics, as far as the US Catholic bishops and the Vatican are concerned.
 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
72. I see what you mean. These nuns are devoted to humanitarian work, and Church authorities
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 02:04 PM
Apr 2013

want them to do less of it, and spend more time on what the higher-ups
choose for them to do. The question comes to mind, what if birth control,
abortion ... etc ... are outside of these nuns' expertise? And an area in which
they are not interested?

The Catholic Church is authoritarian. Clergy in the lower echelons have to
obey. Somehow, I hope these nuns will stick to their guns and go their own
chosen way. Their humanitarian work is sorely needed. Thanks to our corrupt
corporate executives, the ranks of the poor in our nation have increased by
the millions in recent years. These poor do need help.

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