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Omaha Steve

(99,061 posts)
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:05 AM Apr 2013

PC outlook darkens as sales slump deepens in 1Q

Source: AP-Excite

By MICHAEL LIEDTKE and PETER SVENSSON

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The ailing personal computer market is getting weaker, and it's starting to look as if it will never fully recover as a new generation of mobile devices reshapes the way people use technology.

The latest evidence of the PC's infirmity emerged Wednesday with the release of two somber reports showing unprecedented declines in sales of desktop and laptop machines during the first three months of the year.

As if that news wasn't troubling enough, it appears that a pivotal makeover of Microsoft's ubiquitous Windows operating system seems to have done more harm than good since the software was released last October.

"This is horrific news for PCs," said BGC Financial analyst Colin Gillis. "It's all about mobile computing now. We have definitely reached the tipping point."

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20130411/DA5J4IT02.html

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PC outlook darkens as sales slump deepens in 1Q (Original Post) Omaha Steve Apr 2013 OP
MS runs true to form. Every other OS sucks. hobbit709 Apr 2013 #1
financial analysis reported the slump is due to tablets and smart phones encroaching into the PC mar LanternWaste Apr 2013 #9
i just bought a gen4 iPad, and can't imagine ever giving up my PCs.. frylock Apr 2013 #23
lol, 3 PCs now in my 'computer room' finally no lag :P-don't even have to heat that room in winter! Sunlei Apr 2013 #49
3 PCs, 2 laptops, a Kindle Fire, and an iPad in my computer room.. frylock Apr 2013 #50
Ain't that a fact. Fuddnik Apr 2013 #12
When I replace my current one I'm going to have to do the same thing davidpdx Apr 2013 #67
Win 8 only sucks becasue of metro/modernUI/whatever they are calling it these days Gore1FL Apr 2013 #28
Tablet computers are basically toys AgingAmerican Apr 2013 #55
They have uses in enterprise environments, but they are not drop in replacement for PCs octothorpe Apr 2013 #57
Yeah, they really seem out of touch with Win8 interface choices... octothorpe Apr 2013 #56
There were about 4 things that really struck me about metro Gore1FL Apr 2013 #61
I've read a few things about issues like 3 and 4, and I'm glad I don't think I'll have to deal with octothorpe Apr 2013 #62
No question in my mind that Windows RiverNoord Apr 2013 #33
As long as the DIY market never goes away I'll be happy. tridim Apr 2013 #2
yup...my son builds his own desktop madrchsod Apr 2013 #4
I just finished building a win 7 pro 64 GB RAM on an i7-3770K .. srican69 Apr 2013 #19
Yep, I've been looking at laptops for music production (Sonar X2)... tridim Apr 2013 #22
Are you committed to a laptop? toddaa Apr 2013 #53
My system is a tower, Focusrite Scareltt USB audio. tridim Apr 2013 #54
yep.. frylock Apr 2013 #24
I see Wal-Mart selling Windows 8 RiverNoord Apr 2013 #35
my 4 year old dell pc is humming right along... madrchsod Apr 2013 #3
My Sony Vaio Berlin Expat Apr 2013 #5
PC's and Laptops will be around for a long time liberal N proud Apr 2013 #6
The market is saturated, they aren't going anywhere. bemildred Apr 2013 #7
Correct. Comparing PCs to tablets / mobiles is apples to oranges. X_Digger Apr 2013 #42
Mac sales are up and iPad/iPhone sales are killing PC sales. onehandle Apr 2013 #8
iPhones and iPads? Gore1FL Apr 2013 #30
The problem is that Microsoft decides for us what we want. RC Apr 2013 #10
I agree with nearly everything in your message csziggy Apr 2013 #13
Ribbons can be done right, when designed by people kentauros Apr 2013 #26
I'm not giving up my PC anytime soon. denverbill Apr 2013 #11
I can't see how people can do real work or even much browsing csziggy Apr 2013 #14
"As to Bell's talking telegraph, it only creates interest in scientific circles,..." Yavin4 Apr 2013 #17
The people I know that do mobile computing for real work csziggy Apr 2013 #18
Probably because no one has created a tablet application to accomodate those Vets Yavin4 Apr 2013 #21
From what they've said, it's more a function of being able to quickly scan csziggy Apr 2013 #36
Should I drag out magazine covers with flying cars and space cities too? (NT) Heywood J Apr 2013 #45
Inapt comparison n/t Yavin4 Apr 2013 #48
Because you declare it so, and with no relation to the fact that it counters your argument. (NT) Heywood J Apr 2013 #52
Tablets Aren't The Future Yavin4 Apr 2013 #15
Can you play Bioshock Infinite on your ipad? Occulus Apr 2013 #66
Tablets will be configured for gaming Yavin4 Apr 2013 #69
wait for the implant market to kick in olddots Apr 2013 #16
Winsux 8 is killing PC's ...and MS. Die! PC makers should be installing Ubuntu. L0oniX Apr 2013 #20
Unfortunately the lack of standard software is a dealbreaker for 99% of users. tridim Apr 2013 #25
Decades? Yea well Firefox, Thunderbird and Open Office get the job done for a lot of people. n/t L0oniX Apr 2013 #27
It depends on your needs. Windows still owns the gamers market. phleshdef Apr 2013 #31
Valve has released Steam for linux. Every time I boot into Mint the list in my library seems to Occulus Apr 2013 #71
Yes.. I've been hearing it since at least the early 90's tridim Apr 2013 #37
"the real thing" hrm. n/t L0oniX Apr 2013 #41
Lol cliffordu Apr 2013 #63
Business users, maybe. Occulus Apr 2013 #70
If Windows 8 is driving you crazy, try Classic Shell bigworld Apr 2013 #29
If you haven't already, maybe post that nugget in the Computer Group here. kentauros Apr 2013 #46
Thanks for recommending Classic Shell. highplainsdem Apr 2013 #47
The MS fanbois say it's because the start menu is obsolete... octothorpe Apr 2013 #58
I have only heard Microsoft critics say that the fanboys say that, to be honest. Occulus Apr 2013 #72
Because they are lazy cliffordu Apr 2013 #64
One of the real problems is that there's little incentive to upgrade until your computer dies. Xithras Apr 2013 #32
I pretty much use my PC for just the net (mostly DU :-) ) Omaha Steve Apr 2013 #43
PCs and Laptops finally reaching market saturation? happyslug Apr 2013 #34
what's the cause of this? is is just the mobile devices? ZRT2209 Apr 2013 #38
It is also Microsoft not giving the public what it wants and needs. RC Apr 2013 #39
Windows 8 was built for tablet computing not the PC kimbutgar Apr 2013 #40
With a touchscreen, Win8 is actually pretty good as a PC OS. Xithras Apr 2013 #51
That sucks about the dual monitor issue... octothorpe Apr 2013 #59
It was bound to happen fujiyama Apr 2013 #44
I have GOT to build a new one right away. sofa king Apr 2013 #60
The practical problem is the point of diminishing returns and equipment lasting too long, Sen. Walter Sobchak Apr 2013 #65
Time for them to come out with some new bullshit feature tabasco Apr 2013 #68

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
1. MS runs true to form. Every other OS sucks.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:14 AM
Apr 2013

Vista computers didn't sell either.So far I've had about 10 people bring me their Windows 8 computers and ask me to put something else on them.
With the economy not doing well to start with, selling a bad computer isn't going to help.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
9. financial analysis reported the slump is due to tablets and smart phones encroaching into the PC mar
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:53 AM
Apr 2013

This morning the financial analysis reported the slump is due to tablets and smart phones encroaching into the PC market rather than any particular OS.

frylock

(34,825 posts)
23. i just bought a gen4 iPad, and can't imagine ever giving up my PCs..
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:08 PM
Apr 2013

yeh, it's great. I love it, but it can't do a lot of stuff I can do on my PC, and I sure as hell can't run my racing sims on it.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
49. lol, 3 PCs now in my 'computer room' finally no lag :P-don't even have to heat that room in winter!
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 10:00 AM
Apr 2013

frylock

(34,825 posts)
50. 3 PCs, 2 laptops, a Kindle Fire, and an iPad in my computer room..
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 11:34 AM
Apr 2013

it's like a damn grow room in there!

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
12. Ain't that a fact.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 10:22 AM
Apr 2013

Come out with a shitty OS, everybody buys it, and hates it. Two years later, come out with a new OS to fix the last one. What a racket.

I bought my wife a new laptop for x-mas. I had to search to find one with Win7. No sense doing a repeat of Windows ME.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
67. When I replace my current one I'm going to have to do the same thing
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:46 AM
Apr 2013

Vista was a piece of shit. I really like Windows 7.

One of these days a smaller company has to make a break through and finally kill the Microsoft cabal.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
28. Win 8 only sucks becasue of metro/modernUI/whatever they are calling it these days
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
Apr 2013

Under the hood, the O/S is awesome. (Same with Server 2012--it's unclear why the server software assumes you have a touch screen--or why it forces the tablet style interface.)

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
55. Tablet computers are basically toys
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:51 PM
Apr 2013

They are largely useless for enterprise applications. Folks don't want a Tab OS on a desktop. Microsoft blew it and the industry is paying for it.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
57. They have uses in enterprise environments, but they are not drop in replacement for PCs
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:16 PM
Apr 2013

They might work like that in places where people were out in the field and using laptops to do certain tasks, but people sitting in a cubicle still need a desktop or laptop.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
56. Yeah, they really seem out of touch with Win8 interface choices...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:11 PM
Apr 2013

I don't understand why they got rid of the old style start menu even in desktop mode. The whole "it's outdated and obsolete" thing doesn't make any sense to me, because no one explains why it's obsolete.

I run Windows 8 on my personal laptop, but I had to add third-party start menu to it. Which is fine for me on my personal laptop, but that unacceptable for corporate situations. Then this makes even less sense for them to remove it on server 2012. WTF? I'm not adding some third-party shit like that to servers. I shouldn't have to. Grant you, most management might be done using using server manager remotely or using other remote tools, or perhaps using PowerShell. But there are times where you need to work either at the console or via RDP using the GUI, and the start menu simply organized things better than the silly start screen thing.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
61. There were about 4 things that really struck me about metro
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 04:42 PM
Apr 2013

1> In the Beta you could turn it off. It was used in that "classic" mode by a large number of users.
2> When it was demo'd for us (pre-rtm) the first statement made was "Before anyone asks, no, you cannot turn off metro." One of the biggest feature requests pre-release was to turn off metro.
3> It took them a while after release to provide obvious group policy settings (like make the lockscreen something other than "cartoon Seattle" when no one is logged in.
4> In order to set a standard start screen, you have to sysprep the system, copy a file buried under users/../apps/ and copy it to the same path under users\default. I don't remember the specifics as I type this.

Don't get me wrong--there are really more than four things, but these set the tone for the whole pattern. This are examples of Microsoft forcing a "we know best" policy on it's customers. At the same time, these are examples of how Microsoft hadn't really thought a whole lot about.

So much of the O/S is brilliant, but they had to fuck it up with that stupid and cumbersome UI.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
62. I've read a few things about issues like 3 and 4, and I'm glad I don't think I'll have to deal with
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:02 PM
Apr 2013

it at all any time soon.

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
33. No question in my mind that Windows
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:44 PM
Apr 2013

8 is contributing to poor PC sales. It is a PC operating system with an interface explicitly designed for a non-PC device. I tutor students in programming and just about any other PC-related subject for a technical college, and most students who have it want it replaced with 7, which isn't easy with notebooks without vendor-provided drivers.

For Windows users who have been used to the basic desktop/start button/taskbar combination, the Windows 8 interface is awful, and word gets around on this stuff.

So... if you actually want PCs to sell, you should sell them with an operating system with a PC-oriented user interface. Major face palm to Microsoft.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
2. As long as the DIY market never goes away I'll be happy.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:17 AM
Apr 2013

The $1000 underpowered name brand PC (Looking at you Dell) is what is killing the market. The stockholders are to blame for that.

Fortunately it's still dirt cheap to build a high-bang-for-the-buck PC.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
4. yup...my son builds his own desktop
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:25 AM
Apr 2013

he has two cpu`s running at the same time. one for his games and another for is computing. ya he`s a complete nerd....

srican69

(1,426 posts)
19. I just finished building a win 7 pro 64 GB RAM on an i7-3770K ..
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:50 AM
Apr 2013

I put in 128 SSD for OS and a few programs .. the whole shebang cost me 926 ( including software - some of which I got from school)

I'll mainly use that for lightroom, music production (FL Studio) ...and occasional video processing


whatever you say ... none of the SHIT mobile devices can come close to what my machine can do.




tridim

(45,358 posts)
22. Yep, I've been looking at laptops for music production (Sonar X2)...
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:05 PM
Apr 2013

And can't get myself to pull the trigger yet. I'm not paying $1500 for a good laptop that will be obsolete in a year. I guess I should just get longer cables for when I want to record in the closet.

I just built my i7 machine a few months ago. It's sooo SWEET!

toddaa

(2,518 posts)
53. Are you committed to a laptop?
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:51 AM
Apr 2013

If mobility isn't an issue, I'd go tower. Ends up being far cheaper and you've got lots of room for audio interfaces and SSD. Plus screen real estate is critical for most of the bigger soft synths. Laptop rigs can be good for live performance, but for serious production, towers are the way to go.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
54. My system is a tower, Focusrite Scareltt USB audio.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 01:36 PM
Apr 2013

I just wanted a laptop for when I needed to record vocals in my car or drums at my brother's house. I hate toting around a tower.

frylock

(34,825 posts)
24. yep..
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:10 PM
Apr 2013

I have two 6-10 year old cases that are on their third mobo/processor, and i'll probably upgrade them again in a few years.

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
35. I see Wal-Mart selling Windows 8
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:52 PM
Apr 2013

machines with 2 GB of RAM and wonder what moron thought that up. I've seen a couple among my students (who need to run virtual machines) and routinely have told them to return them. They do.

PCs need to be marketed explicitly based on the power and features of the specific model, which doesn't happen at most retailers. Online retailers like Dell should have a checklist of likely uses in pre-configuration and recommend accordingly. They don't because, of course, if customers have to actually buy what they really need, they will be put off by the price tag.

This hurts PC sales. Thank goodness for DIY, although I'd really like to see form factors for notebooks standardized, so that DIY could effectively extend to notebooks.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
3. my 4 year old dell pc is humming right along...
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:22 AM
Apr 2013

i do`t like mobile devices or laptops. as long as there`s support for 7 i`ll be using my desktop.

Berlin Expat

(946 posts)
5. My Sony Vaio
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:36 AM
Apr 2013

came pre-loaded with Windows 8.

After a month of endless restarts, and culminating in a reformat, I went to Ubuntu.

No problems, and a good OS thus far (four months).

liberal N proud

(60,300 posts)
6. PC's and Laptops will be around for a long time
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:38 AM
Apr 2013

Proliferation of the tablets is probably the biggest hit on PC's but there are still many things that my tablet is not capable of doing. Until they make a tablet that will run resource intensive programs, there will always be a PC.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
7. The market is saturated, they aren't going anywhere.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:44 AM
Apr 2013

Everything has to go to commodity hell eventually. We may actually get a better product once the big profit margins go away.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
42. Correct. Comparing PCs to tablets / mobiles is apples to oranges.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:31 PM
Apr 2013

The turnover rate for PC's is nowhere near the short cycle of mobile devices.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
8. Mac sales are up and iPad/iPhone sales are killing PC sales.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:45 AM
Apr 2013

Michael Dell in 1997 on Apple:

'What would I do? I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders.'

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
30. iPhones and iPads?
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:18 PM
Apr 2013

maybe for people who only go to facebook or write emails. There really isn't a good functional crossover to make an iPad or iPhone a laptop/desktop replacement for power users.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
10. The problem is that Microsoft decides for us what we want.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:58 AM
Apr 2013

Microsoft is not customer driven in any real or realistic manner.
Microsoft makes money off 'Cloud Computing'. So they write their programs to default to that, instead the local hard drive.
Ribbons? I don't find them intuitive at all. Especially when the default is to hide needed functions and it takes a Google search to find and make it visible.

Cloud computing, Ribbons, New, confusing nomenclatures and locations for often used utilities and MS programs, with each "new" version of Word, the OS, etc. This attitude unnecessarily steepens the learning curve with each new version.
The operating system and the GUI needs to be separate. That way they can up date the OP without the upheaval and gnashing of teeth, with each new version of whichever. Why would GUI's as a skin, not work just fine?

There is also the MS problem of 'eye candy' over functionality, wasting screen space and CPU cycles. Pretty over function. i.e., compare the looks of the default windows 7 over XP. Transparent headers that show the Wall paper behind it? Why?
Windows 8 is not business friendly on non-touchscreen, keyboard driven desktops and standard laptops. At the very least, change the default to non-touch screen operation mouse and keyboard. Why should anyone need to learn dozens of keyboard commands to be able to do what a couple mouse clicks should do?

Laptops, docked or otherwise, and desktops are not phones, tablets or pads. Stop trying to lump them all together as if they were.

There is nothing wrong with the "Start" button.
There is nothing wrong with drop down windows.
There is nothing wrong with buttons for commonly used functions, in the header.
There is nothing wrong with stable descriptive terms, from version to version, of operating systems and programs.
There is nothing wrong with end user intuition on what should be where and what to expect when an action is executed.
There is plenty wrong with change for change sake to sell the latest pretty bloatware.

csziggy

(34,120 posts)
13. I agree with nearly everything in your message
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:19 AM
Apr 2013

The thing I detest about Windows 8 from my limited exposure to it - how it hides from the user where it puts stuff. Save a file, ostensibly to whatever they've changed "My Documents" to. Look for a file named "My Documents" and can't find it.

I only got an hour or so on my Dad's computer which was running very badly (whole other story) but I could see why he was so frustrated by trying to do simple things, such as read his email, save some messages, surf the internet and save some articles. Since he got his Win 8 computer, his ability to do basic stuff has gone to zero. At 90 and profoundly deaf the computer was his main method of communication.

The one thing I don't agree about is "Transparent headers that show the Wall paper behind it?" I actually like the transparent headers. I often work with multiple windows open. Sometimes I have two windows tiled side by side for transferring data from a browser window into a database. To speed up browsing, I'll enlarge the browser window, but when I need to go back to transferring data, having the transparent header makes it faster to change the window to the appropriate size.

Of course, if Windows still allowed real tiling so you could have it automatically resize the windows to fit next to each other, I wouldn't need the transparent headers.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
26. Ribbons can be done right, when designed by people
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:13 PM
Apr 2013

that aren't looking just at marketing, like at MS. Autodesk switched to the ribbon with their 2010 release, and I have found it to be easy to figure out and use. Plus, Autocad allows you to switch workspaces, including to ones that revert back to menus and toolbars. As I've come to like their ribbon-bar, I haven't switched workspaces except to get to the Civil 3D commands.

I still get lost trying to find functions in Excel I used to know through the menus.

After MS made the change to the ribbon, I asked my oldest brother about that. He used to work for HP, so he had experience working with design groups like at MS. His analysis was that only a few liked the ribbon within the group in the beginning. As such things take several years to develop, by the time they were done with it, all involved "were on board" and "loved" it. However, that doesn't explain why they think the rest of us would love it, too.

It makes me wonder how many of them were perplexed when the general populace rejected the ribbon...

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
11. I'm not giving up my PC anytime soon.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 10:06 AM
Apr 2013

I've got a tablet and it's ok for doing limited web browsing or playing Words with Friends, etc, but for serious web browsing, gaming, and actual work, I need the screen space, a good processor, and a real keyboard.

csziggy

(34,120 posts)
14. I can't see how people can do real work or even much browsing
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:23 AM
Apr 2013

On a 7" screen! My tablet has a 9.7" screen and that is too small for anything other than card games. I've got a 21" widescreen monitor and I'm thinking of adding a second monitor so I have more screen space.

And real keyboards - YES! Laptop keyboards are too small and the pseudo keyboards for tablets are useless.

Yavin4

(35,354 posts)
17. "As to Bell's talking telegraph, it only creates interest in scientific circles,..."
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:44 AM
Apr 2013

and, as a toy it is beautiful; but ... its commercial value will be limited. "

--Elisha Gray

Letter to William D. Baldwin, his attorney (1 Nov 1876). Telephone Investigating Committee, House of Representatives, United States 49th Congress, 1st Session, Miscellaneous Documents (1886), No. 355, 1186.

csziggy

(34,120 posts)
18. The people I know that do mobile computing for real work
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:48 AM
Apr 2013

Use laptops, not tablets. Veterinarians using them to make notes, schedule appointments, etc. cart around a good sized laptop so they can actually see the items they need on a screen. Tablets and notebook computers are not big enough, from what they've told me.

Size does count when it's needed for functionality.

Yavin4

(35,354 posts)
21. Probably because no one has created a tablet application to accomodate those Vets
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:57 AM
Apr 2013

You could create an app which could do all of those things, make notes, schedule appointments, with links to updated information about the animals, etc. It's light weight so that they can move from room to room and even make house calls if needed.

There could even be a speech recognition software which would replace the need for taking notes, and you could take photos, videos, or even x-rays of the animals, etc.

csziggy

(34,120 posts)
36. From what they've said, it's more a function of being able to quickly scan
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 01:07 PM
Apr 2013

An entire month in a calendar, rather than having to look at a tiny image, select a date, go back when it's the wrong day, and try again. One vet had tried a tablet and gave it up, they wasted too much time trying to figure out which appointment they were looking for. What good is an X-ray if the image you're looking at isn't big enough to see the details? Zooming in is all fine and good if you only want to see a tiny piece of a large image - it's no good at all if you need to evaluate the entire leg of a horse and be able to see the details of the bone structure.

For my uses, editing and restoring photos is just not going to happen on a small screen. My toolbar takes up more screen space than a tablet has. I'm considering adding a 19" monitor just for tool bars and menus.

Doing genealogy and looking at entire family group sheets or a pedigree is not going to happen on a small screen. As it is, a 21" screen is not big enough to show a significant portion of my families' information (and yes, it is families - paternal, maternal and my husband's as well as other people's genealogy I'm doing).

If I am transferring data from a web page or a PDF of a book, I have to have two windows open and both windows have to bee large enough to quickly find the areas I need. Paging back and forth between windows wastes time and makes it harder to work.

I've been using computers for thirty years now. The usable space on a tablet screen reminds me of the usable space on a 286 though the resolution is higher on a tablet. I'm not going back to less work area!

Yavin4

(35,354 posts)
15. Tablets Aren't The Future
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

They're the present. I too was a skeptic. Until I recently bought an IPad, my first ever Apple product. I love this thing. I went from not having one to literally living my entire life on it. I use it for work, play, and studying.

Folks are correct in saying that Tablets are not robust, high performance, resource intensive hardware, but that will soon change with either improved technology or workarounds like logging into a remote resource for higher performance.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
66. Can you play Bioshock Infinite on your ipad?
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 02:28 AM
Apr 2013

No, because it would melt if you tried.

No, really. The requirements are so high and so intensive it would probably actually melt your components.

For gaming and 3D design work, the ipad in particular and all tablets in general are not only inadequate but in fact completely useless.

Not even the blender developers will port blender to mobile devices. It's just not usable in a touchscreen environment, period.

Yavin4

(35,354 posts)
69. Tablets will be configured for gaming
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:04 PM
Apr 2013

Yes. Currently, they're far from ideal, but they will be made with gaming in mind. Developing games for tablets is a lucrative career field.

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
16. wait for the implant market to kick in
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:41 AM
Apr 2013

now that's the future computer implants ----gonna be tough on the do it your selfers or anyone who wants freedom of choice but how much choice do we have now ? very little

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
20. Winsux 8 is killing PC's ...and MS. Die! PC makers should be installing Ubuntu.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 11:54 AM
Apr 2013

PC makers would be able to offer a much lower price if the didn't have to pay MS.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
25. Unfortunately the lack of standard software is a dealbreaker for 99% of users.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:11 PM
Apr 2013

It's been that way for decades now, and it's not improving as predicted.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
27. Decades? Yea well Firefox, Thunderbird and Open Office get the job done for a lot of people. n/t
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
Apr 2013
 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
31. It depends on your needs. Windows still owns the gamers market.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:27 PM
Apr 2013

That doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon.

And I personally will always need a Windows machine for my work, as I'm a .NET/C# developer who uses Visual Studio. There is a lot of specialized software of that nature that is mostly just supported on Windows.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
71. Valve has released Steam for linux. Every time I boot into Mint the list in my library seems to
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:48 PM
Apr 2013

be longer.

Valve is also making a linux-based Steam box, probably by Q3 2014. They intend to drive a stake into Windows' heart, by directly competing with Microsoft for Windows gamers and by creating a console of their own that can utilize Valve's entire existing Steam library. According to Newell, what Valve intends is for you to be able to install Steam on either your own linux machine or, if you don't already have a desktop gaming rig, their Steam box. Since you only have to buy a game on Steam once, and since it doesn't matter which platform you buy it for, you can have Steam installed on your Mac, Windows, and linux, and have your games appear on each OS.

Note that these are still DirectX games, for all intents and purposes; the developers do not have to completely rewrite the game code. It's some sort of turbocharged compatibility layer they've put into Steam for linux, I think; they're reporting over 300 frames per second from a testing build of Left 4 Dead 2. That's something I and most other people I've talked to have considered flatly impossible until now. Valve went and did it anyway.

If Valve captures the gaming market, and I believe if they do what they intend they will accomplish exactly that, Microsoft is done as an OS developer and is also done as a console manufacturer. Steam is already bigger than Xbox Live, and Newell hates Windows 8. They're going all-in for every last chip on the table, and I think based on what I've seen so far they stand a good chance of actually pulling it off.

If my whole Steam library becomes available in linux, all 193 titles, I'm dropping Windows like a hot rock and never looking back. All the software I use daily is available for linux already, but for the games on Steam. Add that in and I'm done with Windows for good.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
37. Yes.. I've been hearing it since at least the early 90's
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 02:14 PM
Apr 2013

That's over two decades ago.

Time flies I guess.

Unfortunately Open Office and GiMP are not substitutes for the real thing. I've tried em all.

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
70. Business users, maybe.
Sun Apr 14, 2013, 12:38 PM
Apr 2013

Home users, not so much. For home users, the open alternatives are more than capable enough.

What linux distribution do you currently run? What was the last one?

Every time I hear someone say something like what you just did, all anyone can seem to provide as an example is macros in spreadsheets. GIMP and Blender, in particular, have advanced by such giant leaps they're quickly becoming accepted as an equivalent to the professional (and vastly overpriced) packages available.

bigworld

(1,807 posts)
29. If Windows 8 is driving you crazy, try Classic Shell
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
Apr 2013

I've been involved with computers for 20 years but utterly flummoxed and frustrated when tooling around with a Windows 8 machine. Classic Shell (google it, it's free) puts a skin over the interface and you can set it to resemble a Windows 7, XP, or Classic GUI. Why couldn't Microsoft have included something like this?

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
46. If you haven't already, maybe post that nugget in the Computer Group here.
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 09:41 AM
Apr 2013

I hope to build my own PC sometime this year (first time doing a whole machine versus simple upgrades) and was figuring that I'd just buy a copy of Win7. If this Classic Shell works as promised, I might consider getting Win8 anyway (especially if Win7 isn't being sold anywhere...)

Thanks!

highplainsdem

(48,721 posts)
47. Thanks for recommending Classic Shell.
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 09:43 AM
Apr 2013

It's very tempting, especially after I've spent a lot of time looking at Woody Leonhard's thousand-page "Windows 8 for Dummies" manual.

Here's a PCWorld review of Classic Shell:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2026719/review-classic-shell-brings-the-start-menu-to-windows-8-for-free.html

octothorpe

(962 posts)
58. The MS fanbois say it's because the start menu is obsolete...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:23 PM
Apr 2013

Then they proclaim how anyone who uses things like classic shell are living the past and need to stop clinging to outdated technology. They try to compare it to people who insist on sticking to Windows XP and IE 6, but really it's nothing like that. It's more like if a car manufacturer decided to remove the wheels from cars because they decided wheels are obsolete. Well, maybe not that extreme...

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
72. I have only heard Microsoft critics say that the fanboys say that, to be honest.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:15 AM
Apr 2013

I like Windows 8. I understand what they've tried to do, and have decided to utilize the Metro extras alongside what my PC did before, instead of trying to force them into my own use as replacements (except for Netflix; I really like their Metro app, and use it as an example of How To Do It). Microsoft failed in forcing that, but only because they didn't get the OS to figure out what type of device it's running on. Had they done that, a great many of the complaints about Windows 8 would not be being made. In fact, they would probably be getting compliments if they had implemented it correctly, because Win8 has a great many useful admin tools and system stability monitors and capabilities Win7 lacked, and really is generally faster and manages memory far better than Win7 is capable of doing, at least in my own home configuration.

If Win8 could 'know' whether it's on a desktop or a tablet it wouldn't have been nearly as big a failure as it has been, full stop. Personally, I like it, but I know more don't than do, and that's kind of a loss. It really is a decent OS, but they seem to have tried to force the tablet paradigm on desktop users. They should have seen that that wouldn't work.

cliffordu

(30,994 posts)
64. Because they are lazy
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 05:18 PM
Apr 2013

And you, the end user don't count.

Windows free since 1996

Unix/Linux/OSX

Real operating systems.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
32. One of the real problems is that there's little incentive to upgrade until your computer dies.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:32 PM
Apr 2013

A decade ago, a two or three year old computer was a dinosaur. Most of us replaced our computers every few years because you HAD to...the "latest" versions of our software simply wouldn't run on underpowered older hardware.

That has changed pretty radically over the past decade. My PRIMARY home computer nowadays is a five year old Dell XPS with a 3Ghz Core2 Duo processor, 6GB of RAM, and factory 10K hard drives. My kids can still play the latest games on it, I write code all day long on it in Visual Studio and other IDE's, I can fire up VMware and have four or five VM's running at once, and I've never once said to myself..."I wish I had a faster computer".

And that's the real problem. Windows Vista ran fine on most XP level hardware. Windows 7 requires even less hardware, and 8 is fairly lean as to its hardware needs as well. Unless you're a hardcore videogamer, NONE of the major software packages for PC's has had any updates over the past decade that require a major update to the underlying hardware. A new computer lets you boot a little quicker, render those family videos a few seconds faster, or load a few extra images in Photoshop, but there's no really compelling reason to throw out an old computer and buy a new one anymore. On paper, the differences between a 3Ghz I7 and a 3Ghz Core2 Duo are huge...but in the real world, they just aren't that important when it comes to day to day use.

Like most people, I will probably hang on to my current computer until it either dies, or until one of my software packages needs more processing power than it can deliver. I'm not expecting either of those anytime soon.

Omaha Steve

(99,061 posts)
43. I pretty much use my PC for just the net (mostly DU :-) )
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 12:06 AM
Apr 2013

Windows XP media center edition 2002 service pack 3

HP (back when they were a good PC)

AMD Athlon 64 processor 3800 plus

1.79 Ghz 2.43 GB of RAM

Till this dies, I'm fine with it.

Now my wife Marta the gamer....

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
34. PCs and Laptops finally reaching market saturation?
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 12:47 PM
Apr 2013

I compared PCs and Laptops to Televisions. Both are electronics and once the value of them, NEW dropped to around $100-200 Dollars you tend to have market saturation. i.e. no one wants one who does NOT already have one.

The primary reason to have a PC before the late 1990s was writing letter (Word Processing) or keeping records (Data base). Starting in the mid 1990s the Internet become more and more important and replaced Word Processing and Data base as the primary reason to have a computer.

While the data base and word processing systems of today are better then they were in the 1990s, the difference in much less then between those early word processors and data base systems had over typewriters and manual card data base systems. Most of the labor savings achieved by to switch to computers when it comes to Data base and word processing was done by the mid to late 1990s. Thus you can still have a "Modern" office using computers from the 1990s if you restrict yourself to word processing and internal data base management. The restrictions on the use of Word Processing and Data base managment was how to INPUT the data or words into the program, not the program itself (i.e. the human-computer interface slow point was typing in the words or data NOT the computer itself).

The big push for improvements in computers since the 1990s has been the net (Through actual computer speed was lead by Computer Assisted Design, "CAD", packages and Computer games graphics). This includes not only the net to see what the rest of the word is doing, but inter office nets, as businesses further centralized their data base systems (in the 1990s, if you wanted to know how a particular branch was doing, you had to call that branch and them to send you a "print out" of the days events, today all you have to do is type in the data requested from the companies main computer, even if you are thousands of miles away from that computer).

Notice most input is still input manually (require SOME Human input, through that may be you just using a charge card at an automated dispersing machine like a gas pump).

Now, how is this affecting PCs and Laptops? Most are purchased by individuals today, not by Companies to be used computer wide. Most companies have integrated systems that are upgraded as needed. When such upgrades are done they are often done on company wide basis and often retains the same metal containers the existing computers are in (when do changes often the internals have to be custom made, thus cheaper to keep the existing terminals and upgrade the internals then to buy new terminals and upgrade them). Thus a lot of companies that use to buy PCs are no longer buying PCs, they are upgrading what they have. This has occurred slowly over the last 10 years or so, but most companies do not see any advantage in replacing their existing PCs unless something goes seriously wrong with them. These PCs are more terminals then stand alone computers and the ability to interact with other PCs on the system is more important then being the latest and fastest.

As to individuals, many people switched to laptops within the last ten years. They accepted that such laptops are NOT as easily upgraded as PCs, but their portability was more important then being the latest and fastest. Given most PCs and Laptops are used to search the Net, and the limits is the limit imposed on them by the Net itself (they tend to be faster then the net) no great push to upgrade, once you have one. Unlike cars, having a lap top is NOT a status symbol it had been around 2000 and a lap top you purchased five years ago, is fast enough for internet use. Thus unless they break, they are kept and kept.

Thus, when it comes to PCs and Laptops, the people who are buying them are NOT first time buyers, but people looking for a replacement and what they are seeing is what is the latest and fastest PCs and Laptops are NOT faster or otherwise better when it comes to the Net, then the PC or Laptop they have now. Thus they only buy a new PC or Lap top when something happens to the one they have now.

Thus the decision to look for new ways to package electronics, to over come this market saturation. Lets look at Black and White Televisions, they maxed out in the late 1950s and early 1960s, sales slumped, then the switch to Color Television occurred. Color televisions were the hit items in the 1960s and 1970s, then they slumped. Prices of Color Televisions in the 1980s dropped so low that they finally forced out of the market the last of the portable Black and Whites by the 1990s. The problem was Color Televisions then slumped for they were in a replacement market, not a new item market till the New Flat Screens came out a few years ago. The Flat Screens were hot, drove out the last of the tube color television but are now hitting the same barriers Black and White Televisions did in the early 1960s and then Color Televisions in the 1980s, people were NO longer looking for their first, but a replacement for what they had, Furthermore, what they had could and did last for decades (I watched a Black and White Television till the mid 1970s when the tube finally went and I had to buy a replacement, this time a Color Television). A similar situation is what PCs and Laptops are facing today, unless you are into CAD or Computer graphics games, as far as the home is concern a five year old PC or laptop is good enough. Thus any new PCs or Laptops being sold are to replace existing one that are no longer usable.

On the other hand, these Tablets and other "toys" are new and thus high profit. To a degree they will be like the Color Televisions, quick start to replace the PCs and Laptops (Like Color Television replaced Black and White Televisions in the 1960s) but then a slow crawl (as people satisfied with Laptops and PCs only look at them as a replacement when their PC or laptops dies, much like how the smaller Black and White Televisions held on till the 1990s and only finally replaced by Color Television when the old Black and White finally went bad).

That is the market today, PCs and Lap tops will hold out for a long time to come. These new tablets are NOT as friendly when it comes to input and out put as are PCs and Laptops. Thus they retain a solid market for the foreseeable future, much like Small portable Black and White Televisions did in the 1970s and 1980s (and I see PCs and Laptops doing better then BVlakc and White Televisions, but just pointing it is a solid market share).


 

RC

(25,592 posts)
39. It is also Microsoft not giving the public what it wants and needs.
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 03:10 PM
Apr 2013

Windows 8 GUI (Metro) is so bad that even the game writers are finally gearing up to go with Linux.

kimbutgar

(20,873 posts)
40. Windows 8 was built for tablet computing not the PC
Thu Apr 11, 2013, 03:28 PM
Apr 2013

I tried Windows 8 on a PC and it sucked. I'll stick to my 3 computers that run on XP, Vista (I haven't had problems with Vista) and I love Windows 7. I like the IPAD but you can't do a lot of stuff you can do on a PC. PC's will still be around in offices and homes.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
51. With a touchscreen, Win8 is actually pretty good as a PC OS.
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 12:02 PM
Apr 2013

I haven't been the biggest Win8 fan, but I recently picked up a Dell 23" touchscreen for my one and only Windows 8 backup computer and it completely changed my view of the OS. With a touchscreen, it's much faster than using a mouse and all of the changes they made start making sense. My wife, who hated Win8 when she first saw it, actually prefers it to Win7 now.

Of course, there's one big "deal killer" issue that I haven't resolved yet, and that will keep it from becoming my primary desktop OS...Dual Monitors. Right now, my desktop has a pair of 23" FHD monitors sitting side by side. Because the OS also sees a touchscreen monitor as a pointing device, it's not possible to use two of them at once. Losing the ability to drag content from screen to screen undermines one of the biggest advantages of having dual monitors in the first place.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
59. That sucks about the dual monitor issue...
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:28 PM
Apr 2013

I wonder if that was an oversight or if there were some technical obstacles that got in their way. I find it hard to believe it's an oversight, because they improved the mutli-monitor support in Windows 8. So they were obviously putting a bit of thought into the whole thing.

Do you know if using two touch screen monitors rectifies the issue you're having?

fujiyama

(15,185 posts)
44. It was bound to happen
Fri Apr 12, 2013, 12:43 AM
Apr 2013

PCs (both desktops and laptops) have more or less become appliances - like a TV or a microwave. I'm curious what the market penetration in for PCs anyways. I haven't checked the stats on that yet.

For years PC makers were upping the ante - more RAM, faster clock speed (ah remember the MHz wars?), more hard drive space, awesome graphics cards...and then what happened?

In large part, yes mobile devices (namely the iPhone) came along and made people realize, "hey I can get the internet anytime and anywhere I want and I can play this addictive Angry Birds game". A large segment of consumer electronics shoppers decided they really didn't need a super duper high end PC with an nVidia gForce Extreme Quadro-Whatever - and then have to upgrade their RAM every two years. They realized that they had more computing power than they even needed. By the time tablets were taking major floor space at stores like Best Buy, people were also accustomed to the incredibly intuitive and simple iOS and Android operating systems. People were familiar with the apps available on these platforms - and the screens are large enough now to do most activities required during the day (I haven't tried a B/T keyboard with a tablet and prefer a laptop for typing myself). Not only that, but a large % use the internet primarily through their phone (hence the utter disregard for the English language online, especially when people are typing something on facebook or most internet forums).

What do most PC users do with their computers anyways? I'm willing to bet some 75% of consumers use their PCs for mostly email, facebook, sharing photos and videos, skype, web browsing, doing taxes, stupid youtube videos, and of course porn. If they're a student, then go ahead and include typing up term papers. The remaining 25% are the lone remaining PC gamers, the CAD/heavy multimedia/video editing users, and those that build HTPCs (even that's slowing down with the advent of Smart TVs).

It isn't too surprising that there isn't much of a market and I doubt there's much of a margin either for the traditional PC. Much of the gaming experience has shifted toward consoles which are considerably more powerful than they were years ago, and you can play the latest and greatest gory shoot-em-up on a 60" LED on your LaZ Boy rather than on a 22" monitor with an ugly and uncomfortable office chair. And since the TVs are HD, you get great graphics and sound, with no worry about "whether my system has the resources to support the game".

And as others mentioned, offices haven't had a real need to constantly scrap and re purchase systems either. For my line of work, we use a very resource intensive CAD package. We're still using a bunch of relatively older HPs with Windows XP, which are finally being upgraded to Windows 7 (since XP is losing support this year). Granted they upgrade the RAM every once in a while, but there is little need to constantly upgrade even the CPU and graphics card. Eventually better rendering capabilities and other advances features will require better video cards, but I don't see companies investing in such items for a while, especially in a sluggish economy.

And then finally there's Microsoft, who really hadn't got anywhere with its Mobile OS, and Windows 8 so far has been a disaster. According to my friend they used a common API between the phone, tablet, and the PC. It seems like a good idea at first and may save up front development costs, but making a PC OS behave like one for a touchscreen makes little sense especially when you're basically forcing your bread and butter customers to waste their time relearning how to do simple things, for no apparent benefit. Then they had two versions of their Tablet. One was a "cheaper" version (I think it's the R/T) which was supposed to compete with the iPad, but without the advantage of the huge App Store, and then there was the higher end one, which could run real windows applications. I checked that one out though and the battery life sucked and it was too heavy.

In the end, I use a laptop for my typing and watching video inaccessible on my tablet. I actually prefer my 7" tablet for reading and web browsing, because it's so light. It's not perfect for everything and tablets aren't a replacement for a laptop just yet, but for what they do, they do well.

sofa king

(10,857 posts)
60. I have GOT to build a new one right away.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:34 PM
Apr 2013

Right now I am surrounded by devices that simply are not capable of performing serious graphical computing. Most of them can barely stream video, which means cloud computing and remote computing will be for shite with those devices, too. Framerates suck, streaming sucks, games suck, and actually drawing or designing anything on them is tortuous.

But a PC built today, a really fast, overclockable, upgradeable monster, would likely still be a monster five years from now. It would be capable of tapping into all those miraculous remote computing systems and smoothly displaying the interface, while also creating original graphic content that the stupid ARMy of "smart" devices will never match.

This winter's Sweet Spot might be the last PC one ever needs.

Anyone want to buy a kidney?

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
65. The practical problem is the point of diminishing returns and equipment lasting too long,
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 08:19 PM
Apr 2013

When this location opened in February of 2006 we bought a dozen Dell Optiplex desktops and 19" LCD monitors to go with them. As of yesterday all these machines and all but one of the monitors (that fell off the back of a desk) were still in use.

We're still running Office 2010 and Windows XP, so there isn't a terribly strong argument for replacing them. People have asked to take them when they're eventually replaced because they want another XP PC for home.

The 2-3 year hardware refresh cycle is just an excuse to justify IT budgets.

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