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muriel_volestrangler

(101,160 posts)
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 07:17 PM Apr 2013

Pakistani youth 'favour Sharia law over democracy'

Source: BBC

Pakistani youth favour Sharia law over democracy, a British Council survey suggests.

More than half of 5,000 18-29 year-old Pakistanis polled said democracy had not been good for them or the country.

Furthermore, 94% said Pakistan was going in the wrong direction - a figure up from 50% in 2007.

Making up almost a third of registered voters, the under-30s are expected to play a big part in Pakistan's general elections in May.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22001263

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Pakistani youth 'favour Sharia law over democracy' (Original Post) muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 OP
I'd love to see a male/female breakdown of that number nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #1
I was going to say Control-Z Apr 2013 #4
A bit of a comment on it: muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #5
wow, thanks, I thought those numbers didn't sound right. Pakistanis I've met are always mountain grammy Apr 2013 #6
do you meet these pakistanis....in pakistan? nt msongs Apr 2013 #10
Yeah, good point.. it was here, mostly in the medical field. mountain grammy Apr 2013 #19
This report has some bias happyslug Apr 2013 #14
The report DOES address women, on pages 30-31 of the report: happyslug Apr 2013 #9
Let them have what they ask for and get the hell out of there. socialindependocrat Apr 2013 #2
How due you address the problems of inflation in Pakistan?? happyslug Apr 2013 #11
That's messed up. secondvariety Apr 2013 #3
Sheesh. Have they learned nothing about how superior our way is, what with all those lovely jtuck004 Apr 2013 #7
Sadly hatred and religious fundamentalism is taught in Pakistan schools. limpyhobbler Apr 2013 #8
sadly our president promotes that hate by murdering their women and kids nt msongs Apr 2013 #12
Where almost 18% of the population survive on less then $2 a day, religion is not the issue. happyslug Apr 2013 #15
Religion is a big issue there. There is a lot of religious fundamentalism. limpyhobbler Apr 2013 #16
Tripling the price of food is where 3/4 of income is on food is a smaller factor then Religion??? happyslug Apr 2013 #20
In its hatred of India cosmicone Apr 2013 #13
Attack them now! randome Apr 2013 #17
How would they pay for anything in a Victoria Secret Catalog at an income of $9.65 a month? happyslug Apr 2013 #21
consider how these terms are interpreted from real experience Alamuti Lotus Apr 2013 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2017 #22

Control-Z

(15,681 posts)
4. I was going to say
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 07:31 PM
Apr 2013

the same. Are most women even part of the voting population? I'm thinking perhaps husbands or fathers make that decision for many of them.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,160 posts)
5. A bit of a comment on it:
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 07:36 PM
Apr 2013
According to the statistics cited in the report “29 percent choose democracy, with men slightly less enthusiastic than women”, “32 percent choose military rule and 38 percent choose Islamic Shariah”, clearly indicating the lack of an overbearing majority preference.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2013/04/03/comment/editorials/what-the-next-generation-wants/


The report is here: http://nextgeneration.com.pk/pdf/next-generation-goes-to-the-ballot-box.pdf

mountain grammy

(26,573 posts)
6. wow, thanks, I thought those numbers didn't sound right. Pakistanis I've met are always
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:04 PM
Apr 2013

well educated and quite liberal. The 38% represent the fundamentalists, a lot like our fundamental Christians. American religious extremists hold many of the same beliefs about women as religious extremists everywhere.
For as much animosity that exists between many Christians, Jews and Muslims, the fundamentalists all think alike.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
14. This report has some bias
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:55 PM
Apr 2013

First is the people who ordered the survey are in the business of pushing English, This is an English company and its main thrust is to provide material for people to learn English. Thus the report has a section of the 24% of the young who meets the report's definition of "Middle Class" is clearly aimed at people WHO may opt to learn English.

Please note the definition used in this report for "Middle Class" (page 6 of the report):

middle class Pakistanis are likely to live in a house where at least one person has a college education and where the head of the household is in non-manual work; have incomes at least double the poverty line; own reasonably spacious houses and a range of consumer goods.


Please note only 24% of Pakistanis meet that definition, while 73% are called poor (and the report had no separate section on the poor, as if they were unimportant, through the report included the poor among its other findings, such as that inflation is the biggest concern of this generation).

Who is defined as "poor" is NOT mentioned but by implication that includes anyone who does any sort of manual labor, including working in the various factories in Pakistan.

Took me a while but the National Poverty Line for Pakistan in 2006 (the last year I could find) was 948.7 Rupees per month, or $9.65 US Dollars per month, thus if you are earning $20 A MONTH (less then a dollar a day) and someone in your household has some collage AND someone in your household is working phone lines calling US residents who are behind in their bills (or trying to sell them time shares in Mexico) and can buy a toaster and a Television, you are "Middle Class" by this definition. Think about it, how poor are the poor?
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. The report DOES address women, on pages 30-31 of the report:
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:34 PM
Apr 2013
There is, of course, a very marked divide in the lives that young men and women lead in Pakistan:

• Women are much less likely to be educated than men, with a third saying they have received no education at all, more than double the number of men.
• Women marry earlier. While only a third of young men are married by the age of thirty, 60% of women are.
• Women are overwhelmingly likely to describe themselves as homemakers. 86% of all women fall into this category (a third of this group are unmarried women who care for families at home).

Next generation women are half as likely to still be in full-time education as their male counterparts, while fewer than 4% of young women say they are working. While the Government of Pakistan estimates 22% of women above the age of 15 are employed, many of these are probably engaged in informal work and only on an occasional basis, especially in rural areas. Our survey shows that the majority of young women consider themselves primarily to be homemakers.

Women are unhappy about the limited job opportunities that are available to them, with more women than men expressing an unfavourable opinion about the state of the labour market and with only 5% thinking there are enough jobs on offer.

They also pay close attention to the economic issues that hit closest to home. They are more sensitive than men to the impact of inflation, with half identifying this as the most important issue facing Pakistan, and are more concerned about poverty. Men, in contrast, tend to be somewhat more concerned about issues such as corruption.

Women have very different social networks from men. They are more likely to spend a lot of time with family members and much less likely to spend time with friends. Many feel they have little control of their lives, with nearly half of women who express an opinion saying important decisions are taken for them by others, compared to a third of men.

As a result, women tend to be less politically engaged and to be more reticent about expressing opinions on these issues to our researchers. Nearly twice as many women as men say they have no interest in politics at all, with fewer than half of young women expecting to vote.

As we will argue in the final chapter of this report, this makes young women a potential game changer – if there is any party that can persuade more of them (or at least more of those who are registered) to make their voices heard on election day.

socialindependocrat

(1,372 posts)
2. Let them have what they ask for and get the hell out of there.
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 07:23 PM
Apr 2013

Why do the American thing and continue to piss them off?

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
11. How due you address the problems of inflation in Pakistan??
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:37 PM
Apr 2013

In the report, inflation is by far the biggest problem these young people see, and the failure of anyone to address the problems of inflation, inflation in the price of food more then inflation in the price of fuel, but both are factors.

In Pakistan (and most of the world) food inflation is the single biggest problem for most people. Fuel is a related second reason (in the report fuel was more a concern for the 24% of the young who are "middle class" then the 72% who are "Poor" the "Poor's" main concern is NOT addressed in the report, but from other sources I would say it is food inflation).

The leading cause for world wide food inflation has been the drought in Russia in 2010 (during which Russia STOPPED shipping food overseas) and the drought in the US along with America shifting from wheat for export to corn of Gasohol.

Yes, the US demand for fuel in one of the driving forces behind inflation in both fuel and food over the last five years. Recently, last three to six months you saw a drop in the price of fuel, but grain prices has stayed high.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
7. Sheesh. Have they learned nothing about how superior our way is, what with all those lovely
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:19 PM
Apr 2013

drone attacks we've been sending their way?

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
8. Sadly hatred and religious fundamentalism is taught in Pakistan schools.
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:32 PM
Apr 2013

Pakistan textbooks raise debate about 'curriculum of hate'

...Across Pakistan, government-sanctioned school textbooks contain blatantly anti-religious-minority, anti-Western material. And many are worried the curriculum is fueling intolerance, especially among youths – leading to violent behavior and even sympathy for the Taliban.

“Such textbooks try to create and define Pakistani nationalism in a very narrow sense. It tries to define it in term of an Islamic identity,” says Abdul Hameed Nayyar, a well-known historian, activist, and former physicist who is part of a Lahore-based campaign to encourage teachers around the country to raise awareness about this issue by calling it “the curriculum of hatred” and encouraging teachers to stop using the textbooks.

After the teacher finishes reading, he asks another student to continue reading aloud from the next chapter, which focuses on why Pakistan came into existence: "Narrow-mindedness of the Hindus and the conspiracies of whites led to the call of this Islamic country, Pakistan.”
...

That type of reaction is a problem, say activists, who note that school history texts are used by impressionable children and should be based in fact, not opinion, as students form their own ideas about the world. “These books try to show Pakistan and Muslims are victims of all kinds of conspiracy, from lots of people from many countries, which results in making people very paranoid,” says Mr. Nayyar. “And they become infused with narrowmindedness,” which can lead to extremism, he adds.
...
from http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2013/0228/Pakistan-textbooks-raise-debate-about-curriculum-of-hate
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. Where almost 18% of the population survive on less then $2 a day, religion is not the issue.
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 09:30 PM
Apr 2013
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/poverty-gap-at-dollar2-a-day-ppp-percent-wb-data.html

17.94% in 2008,

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/poverty-gap-at-rural-poverty-line-percent-wb-data.html

Minimum wage in Pakistan was raised to 8000 rupees a month in May 2012:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/186396-crossing-poverty-line.html

A Pakistan Rupee is only worth just over 1 US Cent. Thus 8000 Rupees equal $81.33 a month or $975.96 a YEAR
http://themoneyconverter.com/USD/PKR.aspx

The National Poverty Line for Pakistan is $948.7 per month or $9.65 US Dollars PER MONTH.
http://undp.org.pk/poverty-reduction.html

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
16. Religion is a big issue there. There is a lot of religious fundamentalism.
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 09:36 PM
Apr 2013

Poverty and war are bad. It's also bad when religious wackos dictate school curricula. It's not an either or kind of thing. There are many problems.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. Tripling the price of food is where 3/4 of income is on food is a smaller factor then Religion???
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 10:16 PM
Apr 2013

Corn prices today, April 2, 2013 is $6.50 a bushel

http://www.iowaagriculture.gov/agmarketing/dailygrainprices.asp

Wheat is at $7.49 a bushel

http://www.wheatgrowers.com/Grain/Grain_Prices

While the number differ (Some sources says 60 others 150 meals out of a bushel of Wheat, I will use 60), depending on how much one eats, but an average person, eating nothing but wheat as his or her source of nourishment, will consume up to six bushels of wheat a year. Thus if we ignore shipping costs, you would need to spend around $44,94 on wheat alone.

http://www.wheatlife.org/aboutwheat.html
http://www.wheatgrowers.com/Grain/Grain_Prices

Shipping costs will double that price (depending on the cost of the labor needed to move it, more expensive in the US then in Pakistan, but most US grain handling is done by machine so minimal costs in the US, distributing it to the poor of the third world is a much larger cost, but not as much as distribution costs in the US proper).

Thus if a person is at the Pakistan Poverty line, out of his $9.65 a month, a person has to spend $3.75 a month for food. Given most women are NOT employed in Pakistan AND neither (at least legally) children, if a man has a wife and children, he can barely pay for food let alone things like rent, school, transportation etc. The following cite, uses different numbers, but I included it to show, even with massive subsidies this increase in food prices has been a killer.

Even the Pakistan papers have notice the tripling of the price of Wheat since 2007:
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/business/24-Nov-2012/govt-increased-wheat-price-185pc-in-5-years

http://www.fao.org/docrep/011/ai482e/ai482e03.htm

In April 2000 a metric ton of wheat sold for $105.11 by November 2012 it was $361 a metric ton (The cite below uses metric tons NOT bushels but the point I am making is prices have TRIPLED since 2000 and that is the driving force behind a lot of the problems we are seeing in the world).

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=wheat&months=300

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
13. In its hatred of India
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 08:52 PM
Apr 2013

Pakistan has gradually destroyed itself by heavy Islamization and indoctrination of Wahabism.

Democracy has failed Pakistan for that very reason. Instead of accepting itself as a much smaller country that could never compete with India in size or economy, the Pakistani military has ruined the nation in search of parity with India on all levels which is impossible.

Pakistani muslims are disenchanted, their minds shackled by centuries-old dogma and a false sense of pride with a brainwashed attitude that Islam is superior, and will conquer the world.

This hubris is not found in Indian muslims who have an extremely realistic view, are not indoctrinated and are gradually getting away from religion and more into science like people everywhere else. This is what a real secular democracy does.

I weep for Pakistan.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
17. Attack them now!
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 09:38 PM
Apr 2013

First, bombard them with salvos of Victoria Secret catalogs.

That should...um, soften them up...for a barrage of designer jeans and iPhones!

They'll come around. Pretty much any international crisis can be solved with money, you know.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
21. How would they pay for anything in a Victoria Secret Catalog at an income of $9.65 a month?
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 10:20 PM
Apr 2013

Pakistan's biggest problem is the sheer number of poor and its refusal to do any real land reform (i.e. take land from the Rural Gentry and give it to the Rural Peasants, the Gentry want the land and the peasants to work the land so they get maximum profit from the land). Only 36% of the population live in urban areas and it is the rural areas where most of the problems are,

 

Alamuti Lotus

(3,093 posts)
18. consider how these terms are interpreted from real experience
Tue Apr 2, 2013, 09:49 PM
Apr 2013

terms like "democracy" have more of a loaded connotation to them than the mere dictionary definition. The idea is what the capitalist class of corrupt politicians have been peddling to keep their power monopoly, "democracy" is why American invaders massacre hundreds of thousands people in Iraq and Afghanistan, "democracy" is the reason why CIA spy drones shoot missiles into their villages. The people of Pakistan have largely been fiercely anti-capitalist since its inception. Cold War politics forced the collaborationist governments to align sharply with the US and occasionally China (for the same anti-Russian, anti-Iranian, anti-Indian reasons and not for any ideological purposes), and the military, the politicians, and the beards have always co-opted and diverged this popular radical sentiment into nothing more than maintainance of the corrupt capitalist status quo.

I'm not sure why the beards are so popular in this poll, the religious movements have been seen as puppets and collaborators of the military dictatorships since Zia ul-Haq used them as the gov'ts preferred mercenary fist both against Indian occupation forces in Kashmir and the strong radical leftist movements in the country (actually, I could go back further to the self-styled Field Marshal in this tendency, but his use of the beards was largely against Bangladeshi nationalism at the time, for which the present Bangladeshi Islamist movements are presently facing war crimes charges and possible execution for!). The Afghan Taliban is rightly shown great respect from the people, but the Pakistani organization of the same name, but distinctly different approach has largely discredited itself in its conduct of their war against the state.

Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

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