NRA unveils plan for armed guards in schools it says 'will save lives'
Source: The Guardian
The National Rifle Association has unveiled its recommendations for placing at least one armed guard inside every school campus in the country in proposals that were immediately denounced by gun control advocates as radical and dangerous.
America's most activist gun rights lobby group presented in Washington what it claimed was an "independent" review of school safety standards headed by a former Republican congressman from Arkansas, Asa Hutchinson. The core recommendation of the 225-page report is that school personnel carrying firearms should be placed not only within every school but within every campus in every school.
Hutchinson said that the presence of armed school personnel would cut down the time needed to intercept an active shooter present inside school premises. "One thing you know for sure is that the response time is critical - if you can reduce that response time, if you have the firearm on the presence of someone in the school, it will save lives."
.......
The NRA's new list of recommendations include changing local state and district laws to allow school personnel to carry guns the report even has appended a model state law that would do so. It calls on federal funding to be used to encourage the take up of armed school guards and their training, which would involve between 40 to 60 hours of induction into the use of weapons with the NRA offering its services as a training institution.
Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/02/nra-unveils-plan-armed-guards
louis-t
(23,292 posts)Think of all the guns they'll sell! I swoon just thinking about it!
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)every school system would in theory hire the local NRA chapter for certified arms training...Talk about win-win all around!
It is a very unique type of sick, twisted mindset that always tries to convert the deaths of innocents into profits...
doc03
(35,328 posts)century one room schools. That way we could have one teacher per school and 7 armed guards. Think of the gun sales potential.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Oh please....
Just get those 8 year old janitors Newty was talking about to also be the armed guards and pay for their welfare.
Robb
(39,665 posts)A National Rifle Association-funded school safety task force today unveiled its proposals to avoid school shootings like Newtown, coloring within the lines of the outline floated late last year by the NRA's Wayne LaPierre at a press conference where he attempt to cast blame for that tragedy on the "national media machine" and lawmakers behind gun-free school zones, among a host of other things.
The biggest change from LaPierre's plan to the one offered today by former Rep. Asa Hutchinson today: Instead of placing armed volunteers in every school that wants one, the report suggests each school train and arm at least one staff member. That move would, in theory, cut down on the cost of the initiative, although it does little to address the larger doubts about how effective such a shield program would be.
(snip)
When asked why the task force didn't weigh in on the larger gun control debate, Hutchinsonwho received an A-rating from the gun lobby in 2010made no effort to hide the fact that the shield program is an attempt to shrink the larger conversation to focus exclusively on school shootings specifically, and not gun violence in society at large. "We want the debate focused on school safety," Hutchinson said. "I have not focused on the separate debate in Congress on firearms and how they should be dealt with."
On a somewhat related topic: More than 3,200 people have been killed by guns since Dec. 14, when Adam Lanza shot and killed 20 first-graders and six school staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary.
Read More: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/02/nra_school_shield_program_asa_hutchinson_makes_it_clear_that_the_nra_s_response.html
blackspade
(10,056 posts)They are not a government entity anymore than all these corporations with their 'plans' that do nothing but stick a straw into the public coffers.
Fuck the NRA.
On edit: This is another problem I have with this:
The biggest change from LaPierre's plan to the one offered today by former Rep. Asa Hutchinson today: Instead of placing armed volunteers in every school that wants one, the report suggests each school train and arm at least one staff member. That move would, in theory, cut down on the cost of the initiative, although it does little to address the larger doubts about how effective such a shield program would be.
So the idea is that instead of having an actual trained officer at each school, the NRA wants someone already paid as a teacher of whatever at the school, to assume the duties as an armed guard?
This is just another way to pull money out of the school system while leaving school workers with even more to do than they do now.
FightingIrish
(2,716 posts)are about 140,000 schools in this country. I wonder who would profit from arming all those teachers and staff.
rdharma
(6,057 posts)QUOTE: "It calls on federal funding to be used to encourage the take up of armed school guards and their training, which would involve between 40 to 60 hours of induction into the use of weapons with the NRA offering its services as a training institution."
Not only has the NRA figured out a way to foil reasonable gun safety measures, they've also figured out a way that they can get some government money through legislation!
sikofit3
(145 posts)The first thing I thought about was how many times the trained "guards" will be called into the classroom in full riot gear to handle a "disruptive" child. This has the potential of so many other things and gears up the little kiddies to get used to armed men watching your every move to make sure you don't step out of line creating fear and complacency, but for your own good. Another way for us all to hand even more of our power over to the PTB and to the gun lobby for our protection of course.
srican69
(1,426 posts)Bloody pieces of excrement....
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Because they all have armed guards
RT_Fanatic
(224 posts)The father of a child killed during the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting praised the National Rifle Association on Tuesday for its "comprehensive program" to address gun violence in schools.
Mark Mattioli, whose six-year-old son, James, was killed in the December shooting, spoke during a NRA press conference on the pro-gun organization's new school safety proposals.
"I wanted to take a minute and applaud ... the NRA for coming up and spending the time and resources on putting a program like this together," Mattioli said. "We send our children off to school. There are certain expectations and obviously in Sandy Hook, those expectations were not met."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/mark-mattioli-nra_n_2999478.html
defacto7
(13,485 posts)It goes something like this: First denial, then grief, then anger, then resolve...
This guy is stuck in the anger phase. It happens, especially if promoted as the resolution.
caraher
(6,278 posts)The NRA should have some solid scientific research to back up their proposals... but thanks to their demands, federal funding for research on gun violence is prohibited.
So they forfeit any right to make credible claims on policy, as far as I'm concerned.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Talk about over reaching.
FuzzyRabbit
(1,967 posts)The NRA's solution to school shootings is to put more guns in the schools.
Of course, why didn't I think of that? What could possibly go wrong?
PSPS
(13,593 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)In most shooting situations, people near the shooter or the victim do NOT have time to pull a gun, aim and fire. It takes at least two seconds from you seeing someone open fire AND pulling your own weapon and open fire (And by that time you are long dead, if the shooting is trying to shoot you).
The better solution is to have someone some distance away (50-100 yards) with a a semi-automatic short barrel weapon (This is the role of the MP-5, and even Thompson sub machine gun). The shooter should be trained to used the weapon in the semi-automatic mode in an emergency situation (and keep the Automatic Fire reserved when you have time to think and decide how the automatic fire should be used). The MP-5 is a modern "sub-machine gun" designed for police work (a lot of Special forces and SWAT teams used them). It fires a pistol bullet, for minimum range, but since it has a stock is fired like a rife (with a rifle's enhanced accuracy).
As to the agents next to the President, they job should NOT be to return fire, but to man handle anyone around the President (including the President), to get the President out of harm's way. If that means attacking the shooter one on one, do so. If that means forcing the President behind cover, do so. Leave any shooting to the man with the MP-5 or whatever is the weapon of the person providing potential cover fire.
When I was in the National Guard, and was setting up perimeters including guards checking on incoming people and trucks. The Gate Guard had a M-16 but he was not told to use it to stop someone rushing the gate, but to get down and leave the Machine gun behind him a clear fire zone. It was the Machine Gun that was going to stop anyone rushing the Gate NOT the Gate Guard.
The same with the people around the President, they have to accept the unpleasant fact that they will NOT have the opportunity to open fire to defend the President. They did not do so when Kennedy was Shot, when George Wallace was Shoot (in 1972 the law had been passed providing Secret Service protection to all presidential candidates, so when Wallace was shot he had Secret Service protection), when ford was attacked TWICE, when Reagan was attacked etc. (Both Bushes seems to have to Scripted a campaign for anyone who wanted to kill either of them near them, Clinton and Obama seems to be more open, but they also tend to be more Scripted campaigning then was the norm in the 1960s and 1970s).
Most Prisons follow the same policy, the only Guards with guns are the Guards on the wall, in the Guard towers, on on the "Gun walks" which prisoners have no access to (They overlook the cells and the common areas and have shooting slits that the guards in the gun walks can use to take out prisoners if that is necessary. The Guards among the prisoners never carry guns. To easy to be overtaken by a prisoner and the gun taken.
As to School guns, if guns are permitted, the same policy should be adopted. Someone providing Cover while another confront any "attacker". If the Confronter falls for any reason, the person with the rifle should open fire, but if no one falls, no fire. In most cases, Schools are not really set up for such situations. You do NOT have independent access to each school room that the students and anyone else who enters the school does NOT also use. Schools tend to have very small hallways (minimum standards for the number of students at peak times, which leads to small hallways with a lack of room to move around in).
Thus in schools, you have a problem due to the size and design of schools. Some schools remind me of Prisons (limited exit and entrances for example) but they still are school, you do not design them with a completely inaccessible hallway that provide cover for gun guards. They also tend not to be separate buildings for each class, with a high wall for Gun Guards to look down on each students as they move from one building to another.
Some details on Reagan's assassination attempt and HOW the shooter was captured"
On how the attempted shooters of Ford were handled:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_assassination_attempt_in_Sacramento
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Jane_Moore
The Attempt on Truman in 1950:
Notice it was the Agent who had TIME to react to the shooting of the police officer, to stop the attempted assassin. The Police Officer killed did not even have time to reach for this gun.
The 1933 attempt at President Elect FDR also shows that the shooter was stopped by Physical hands on attack NOT by someone pulling a pistol:
The Kennedy Assassination was a long range affair, not someone getting close to the President and pulling a pistol. Oswald used a rifle, in many ways a classic "Cover Fire" weapon. No one ever confronted him or anyone else during the assassination. The Secret Service had pistols, but never fired them.
My favorite attempt was the 1835 attempt on Andrew Jackson, the assassin walked up to Jackson, fired both pistols before Jackson could do anything, both mis-fired, which gave Jackson time to react, and he proceeded to hit the attempted Assassin with his cane.
List of all attempted and successful assasination attempts against US President (that are known):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
And lets look at the often forgotten attempted assassination, that of George Wallace in 1972:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-05-09/local/35454828_1_arthur-bremer-george-wallace-alabama-gov
Similar situation occurred when an attempt was made on Theodore Roosevelt, with the assassins of McKinley and Garfield (in all three cases, members of the crowd detained the assassin)l John Wilkes Booth escaped, but he made sure no one was near him when he shot Lincoln.
Notice, the one thing all of these attempted assassinations and actual assassination have in common. In none of them were pistols use or even useful in preventing the assassination attempt OR in the arrest of the assassin (With the sole exception of the attempt on Truman, but that was more a full scale military assault with pistols, as oppose to a conventional assassination attempt).
All, but the Truman attempted assassin, were arrested by PHYSICAL force (i,e, someone grabbing them with their hands), they walked away (as was the case of JFK's and Lincoln's assassins) OR killed by someone in a cover position NOT near the original shooting victim (The attempt on Truman in 1950).
Thus a comment could be made that we would be better off, giving one man (or woman) who guards the President a M16 or a MP-5 and keep him or her away from the President about 50-100 yards (but give him or her a clear field of fire) and disarm everyone else (or give them all billy clubs, a more useful weapon in a very close battle situation).
Pistols are almost useless if a full military scale attack is made (even if done by two people with pistols, as in the Truman 1950 attempt) and, except for the 1950 attempt, no such attempt had ever been made (and the best defense, is one of depth, a front guard that has to be rushed, who is covered by someone else, preferably with a heaver weapon then a pistol). In the case where rifles have been used (JFK's is the only known attempt) pistols are useless (as seen in the JFK assassination, the pistols were pulled but since no one knew where the shots came fire, no one opened fire, thus they were more decorative then actually useful).
In all but two attempts, the weapon of choice was a Pistol and the location was the campaign trail. In these cases, the pistols of the Secret Service, may have been pulled (as in the JFK assassination) but never fired, for the assassin was subdued by physical hand on efforts before pistols were even drawn.
Sorry, even for the Secret Service they be better off armed with billy clubs, with cover provided by someone 50-100 yards away.
The same with Schools, if you want to arm teachers you have to understand that it has to be a team effort, with someone during the confronting and the someone else providing any cover fire if and when needed. Furthermore, you have to have space to provide cover and most schools do not have such wide open spaces. Thus you have the possibility that the cover will be next to the confronter and both being taken over by any killer who breaks into the school.
I am sorry, the better solution is to provide every class room two ways in and out. Both ways should NOT be able to be seen from one location. Students should be trained to vacate school rooms (just like in a fire drill). The two ways should be large enough to provide the maximum number of people out of the room as quickly as possible (double fire rated doors would be best).
Remember a person with a weapon that has a 30 round or larger magazine, needs to have 30 targets, if the "targets" are running out the door, you rapidly reduce the number of people the killer can kill.
Maybe because I do have some military training, and in that training losses were expected. The duty was to minimize the losses not to totally eliminate them, on the grounds such elimination is impossible. Thus I view New Town as a product of a bad school design, and the concept of total security, which by its nature will always fail. Total Security is impossible to achieve, you need to accept that unpleasant fact and work with it, not ignore it as a lot of people have been doing. Thus the best solution is schools with multiple exits so the disburse children whenever that is desired (and that is desired in fire and other disasters such as a shooting). Such double exits are NOT that expensive (if you opt for one door instead of double doors) for most class rooms have windows and they can be converted to a door. If the class room is on the second floor and exterior staircase can be installed. These are NOT that expensive, but it shows that the school is willing to disburse children if that is want is needed. If kids can run, they will run. They have to know that it is an option (thus use of such "Fire Exits" should be common, for example used in fire drills).
Yes, fire doors and outside fire stairs look "Ugly" but it provides the ability to disperse students if needed.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)I would question if the comparison of attempted assinations, in which there is a single target, versus the rampage killer who wants a large body count is valid. Rampage killers tend to quit and suicide themselves as soon as they encounter armed resistance, usually in the form of police entering the building.
I completely agreed that total security is impossible. The rampage killer is going to be able to get off his first shots. The trained staffer could then have a chance to respond by shooting the rampager. Granted that it isn't a great plan, and does have drawbacks, but it is better than nothing.
The school that I went to in grade school, junior high, and high school would have been extremely safe. Each class room had two doors that opened onto the outside, as well as windows. At the start of anything we could have scattered like birds from a cat. Modern schools seem to be designed for greater energy efficiency which means few outside doors.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)At the "gate" stood the White House Police Officer, behind him, a good bit away, was the Secret Service man who actually stopped the attack. Notice the Secret Service man was in a "cover" position, he could provide cover fire for the Front gate, but he was NOT at the Gate.
In many ways that attempt shows where the best position for any one protecting someone or something else, either right next the "Target" so they have to go through the protection to get at the "Target" or a good bit away, so when an attack occurs, you have time to react (Remember it does take 2 seconds to react to anything, thus you have to make sure you give yourself that 2 seconds, by making sure you can not be threatened till at least 2 seconds after the start of the attack.
The "Two second" rule came out of the findings that it takes a person at least two second to process what comes into his eye, to the brain and then to engage whatever training that person has had. The classic example is driving. If the car in front of you hits his brakes and comes to a complete stop, you will hit him unless you have given yourself at least two seconds of travel time for your brain to realize the car in front of you has stopped and your need to hit the brakes yourself (Most driving experts tell people to give themselves at least four second in case you are distracted when an emergency occurs).
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)It is a pleasure to discuss this important topic with a trained person who is also civil. As you can see in this thread, many here just want to vent anger at a gun guy.
You are completely corrrect about the two second rule. It is the source of the Tueller rule.
However, the staffer would be unlikely to be on the exact at the time of the first shots. They would be in their office and would respond by going to the problem. They would be like police responding to a call, except a lot faster.
Blandocyte
(1,231 posts)Way cheaper than maintaining armed security and much less liability.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)bodyguards, and/or be armed themselves.
but it is bad to have armed guards in schools.
why is that?
PSPS
(13,593 posts)I'd rather use the term "misguided" or "stupid." See my post above that shows quite clearly how having one or many "armed guards" does nothing to address the problem of a country awash in guns and gun fetishists.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Post #22 by happyslug does a far better job of analyzing the security problems, although he discusses it from the aspect of a targeted assassination, instead of a rampage killer.
Your idea, of no armed guards, merely means that the rampage killer is allowed to keep killing without interference until several minutes later the cops arrive, with guns.
LiberalFighter
(50,904 posts)The primary threat isn't a shooting either.
BumRushDaShow
(128,898 posts)now applied to the schools.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Kablooie
(18,628 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)You can NOT shoot 30 kids, if you do not have 30 kids together in one class room. Each class room should have two exits, in New Town each class room had only one. Thus the Shooter only had to stand in the door way and the kids had no where to run. If they had a second exit, they that would have been an option and at least some of the children would have taken it.
I went into my details on this above, but in the Military I was told to disperse personnel so to minimize casualties. People and children will do that on they own, if they can, in New Town they did NOT have that option, and ended up killed.
Kablooie
(18,628 posts)It is something that should be considered for new schools nowadays.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)And I went to some schools built decades ago (The oldest being built in 1917). Now, one class room I was in did have two doors, the second door was kept locked and chained. Every so often the Fire Marshall would come in, and order the chain removed, as a fire hazard. When he left, back went on the chain for the School did not want students using that door to exit the school .
That class room was unique, due to the design of the school and its location on a hillside. Due to these two factors, that class room was isolated and in a easily block section of the school (A blind spot). Thus when it was built, a exit door was installed to meet the fire code that requires all "blind spots" to have an exit to the outside in case of fire. The problem was, when the School was opened, students would use it to leave the building other then using the main entrances. Thus the school, which operated under a policy of complete control over the students, lost some control over the students and hated it, and kept ordering the Door chained.
Now, the above was in the 1960s, but since that time more and more school have adopted a policy of complete control over their students, and that includes controlling the number of entrances and exits. This, plus the desire for Air Conditioning, have made schools more and more like prisons, without the separate "Gun Walks" that prisons have. Thus it will be a fight to demand two doors to each classroom, but I think a fight (and expense) worth it in the long run not only when it comes to shooters, but fires and even in school fights. Disperse targets whenever possible, that includes targets of shooters, fires and bullies.
Kablooie
(18,628 posts)and had sliding glass patio doors facing the field as well as the regular entrance door.
It dispersed us very well each recess.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)What happens when shooter is in another wing of the school far from armed guard?
What happens when the armed guard forgets his firearm in the bathroom, as already happened?
Many questions about this.