People Are Strange

[H2O Man]

“People are strange.”
-- Jim Morrison


Probably all of us have, from time to time, read some comments by another DU community member and wondered, “What the heck? Why would she/he say THAT?” And I’m not talking about the obvious attempts to disrupt a liberal-progressive Democratic web site. There will always be a splattering of such nonsense, and we already know both the “what” and “why” of such behavior.

Rather, my focus is on those who are members of the Democratic Party, and are sincere -- though misguided -- in their attempts to promote their own point of view. However, in attempting to get their needs met, they appear comfortable in making others uncomfortable. Their eagerness to insult others -- individuals and groups -- is a type of human behavior that has led theologians, psychologists, politicians, sociologists, mystics, and math teachers to the shared belief that Jim Morrison was right: people are strange.

A response to an OP that I posted yesterday got me thinking about “personality,” and how an individual’s personality helps or hinders their participation in a larger community (or society) of people. My friend’s question accurately noted that both heredity and environment are contributing factors. The two combine to create an individual’s personality -- their character and their behavior.

The dividing-line between heredity and environment isn’t always distinct and clear-cut. By the simplest of definitions, heredity is everything involved before birth, and environment everything that happens after birth. Yet, the environment the expectant mother lives in definitely impacts the baby -- from her diet to her mood -- just as surely as her DNA contributes. And the power inherent in DNA is a miracle that scientists recognize as a most amazing life-force; the ability to understand DNA will not only improve the quality of human life on earth, but may well be what saves us from the extinction we seem to be unconsciously aiming for.

Now, it has become fashionable, in some circles, to ask if being a registered republican is evidence of a major mental illness. Indeed, a unbiased response would have to include some shared delusional beliefs -- and corresponding behaviors -- among our republican brothers and sisters. It’s a tad difficult, for example, to argue that fellows like Richard Nixon or George W. Bush were the pictures of mental health and stability. Yet both were put in office for two terms. Someone voted for them. What does that say about them?

Yet even delusions, or even certain episodes of psychosis, are not “proof” of a major mental illness. Rather, they can be the stuff of personality disorders. And while they are issues of mental health, they are distinct from major mental illness….though often related in some ways. People are complex beings.

Let’s take a brief look at some of the differences between major mental illnesses and personality disorders. In the field of mental health, for example, the major mental illnesses are diagnosed as “Axis 1,” and personality disorders as “Axis 2.” ( Or, we might say “levels” 1 and 2.) The majority of major mental illnesses are disorders in brain chemistry, and likely hereditary. While they have an impact upon the personality of the individual, they are not an indicator of character. Thus, as a population, I’ve found those with major mental illnesses -- including through work, family, and friends -- to be among the most caring, honest, and honorable people I’ve met. It’s worth noting that those who suffer from a major mental illness are far, far more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, than to commit one.(The mass media pretends otherwise, which I find highly offensive.)

Major mental illnesses cause thoughts and behaviors that create distress in a person’s life. While it is true that those experiencing the manic phase of a bipolar illness may enjoy some of the early symptoms, it eventually causes distress and disturbance.

A personality disorder, despite its ability to at times mimic a major mental illness, is different in important ways. First, they are largely learned behavior. In the simplest terms, it is the attitude and behaviors that a kid growing up in a dysfunctional family learns, in order to get his or her needs met. When that person takes those attitudes and behaviors out into the bigger world outside of their dysfunctional family system, they do not tend to fit in well.

One major distinction between major mental illness -- which causes suffering for the individual -- is that the personality-disordered person finds comfort in their dysfunctional behaviors. Indeed, their behavior almost exclusively causes discomfort, even suffering, for those around them.

With all people, there are three closely related factors that combine for personality: thinking. character traits, and behaviors. Thinking, of course includes everything from intelligence to attitude; character has to do with approach (honest, liar, nice, mean, etc); and behaviors are the person’s interactions with the outside world, particularly other human beings.

All people develop the ability to behave differently in distinct situations. One tends to be more relaxed with friends, for example, than in a formal situation, such as a court appearance. A person often shows a different side of themselves to family members, than to medical professionals. One can see how their thinking and character traits impact their behaviors in different settings.

One of the cultural dynamics that adds an ugly tint to modern society is “road rage.” It demonstrates how the synergy of high stress levels, low frustration levels, and de-humanization leads to unhealthy amounts of hostility being aimed at “strangers.” Just as people behave differently in various person-to-person interactions, this phenomenon takes place between people isolated from direct contact, by being in the relative safety of their car. Beeping horns, middle fingers, aggressive driving, and “Hey! Fuck you!” takes over. In some instances, things spin even further out of control.

Thus, when people are even more isolated -- sitting in their home, in front of a computer screen -- and can’t even see the other through glass windows, we find a strange type of “road rage” taking place on the information highway. And that includes here, on DU. While not everyone who disagrees with you or I is painfully personality disordered. Often, good and intelligent people disagree. Even on important things.

The test, I believe, is in watching for patterns of behavior. That involves looking closely at the other persons thinking; their character; and how they behave. Sometimes, rather than becoming annoyed with another forum member, and engaging in a pointless, often emotional squabble, it is better to step back, and dis-engage. Not “disengage” by quitting DU -- although arguing with a cluster of personality disordered people can be so frustrating, one might feel like quitting. But, rather, to just step back, and let the other person unload. Trust others to evaluate the quality of what those folks unload.

Most people find it difficult to not react to the personality disordered opposition. This is particularly true, when dealing with a passive-aggressive or a borderline personality disordered person. Probably all of us can identify a few people that we’ve engaged in weird conversations with, or who tend to follow us around on the forum, who’s personality makes meaningful conversation impossible. It can be frustrating, in the sense that we can see that they have intelligence. But they are annoying.

For example, while my goal isn’t to argue with others here -- those who think differently can be rewarding to talk with -- I’ve had a few “shadows” over the years. Most have been tomb-stoned. But a few are definitely solid Democrats; we simply do not like each other. In one current case, it’s an intelligent, well-meaning but terribly bitter fellow, with a rather severe borderline personality disorder. He has cycles of accepting that we will never converse again, and then compulsively adding little bitter comments to my threads, like a nasty little Chihuahua peeing on a rug.

I sometimes just ignore his bitterness, and other times, read his contributions. It would be easy to crush him in a debate -- but why? I feel sorry that anyone’s life-experience would result in being that unhappy, anxious, bitter, and paranoid. An insult from me isn’t likely to improve his lot. It could only reinforce that borderline disorder, including his mistaken belief that I am involved in his life. I’m not. I’m just some weird guy participating in a discussion forum. Sad, really.

Maybe keep this in mind, when you participate in conversations on this forum. Even those you naturally think of as annoying -- or simply as jackasses -- may be good people, who have been damaged by life. If that damage had been done to them physically, we would surely be patient with them. But instead, it is people who’s being has been injured by life. Be patient. Be compassionate. If necessary, disengage. But don’t react with anger or hostility.

Ramblings from an old man. Thanks for reading.

H2O Man

[pipoman]

1. Seems to me they are actually stranger when you're a stranger too.

Faces.....faces seem ugly when you're alone. The worst thing though is that women seem wicked, especially when you're unwanted....maybe it's just me....

[H2O Man]

3. Well done!

Very well done, indeed! Thank you!

(I've been getting out my The Doors collection, to play -- loud -- while working around the house. Mighty fine music.)

[Hekate]

2. You are one of the good ones, H2O Man. nt

[H2O Man]

6. Thank you!

I was talking with an old friend today. I said that sometimes I think, "I'm not 'normal'." Other times, I think, "I don't want to be 'normal'."

[AikidoSoul]

59. A great line from the play, The Fantasticks in which the inge'nue kneels and prays by saying

"Please God please..... don't let me be normal.

[H2O Man]

60. Love it!

[valerief]

4. Thanks for the reminder! nt

[H2O Man]

7. Some times, it

is easy to forget. At least for me, it can be.

[CentralMass]

5. Thats some good guality H2O...

[H2O Man]

8. Thank you.

[PowerToThePeople]

9. I like most of your post

It is informative.

But, you did sneak in a META callout deep within the post. unsure if the larger post was just made to conceal that or not.



(not that I agree with the person you are calling out, i probably would not. But, it is a call-out and possibly a personal attack)

[H2O Man]

10. No.

I used an example to say that it is wrong to get mad at someone who attempts to annoy you. No one would know who I'm speaking of.

[PowerToThePeople]

13. well

For example, while my goal isn’t to argue with others here -- those who think differently can be rewarding to talk with -- I’ve had a few “shadows” over the years. Most have been tomb-stoned. But a few are definitely solid Democrats; we simply do not like each other. In one current case, it’s an intelligent, well-meaning but terribly bitter fellow, with a rather severe borderline personality disorder. He has cycles of accepting that we will never converse again, and then compulsively adding little bitter comments to my threads, like a nasty little Chihuahua peeing on a rug.

This reads to me as a potential attack. I would take someone claiming I have a borderline personality disorder as an attack. It certainly treads the line of META too.

[H2O Man]

15. That may be, but

I'm not sure anyone could say, "He's talking specifically about ME!"

[PowerToThePeople]

17. Only the person you are calling out

or anyone who recollects that specific thread.

edit- I took the Chihuahua as literal and not figurative. No, no one would probably be able to figure it out.

[H2O Man]

18. Doubt it.

Way past history.

[PowerToThePeople]

19. I call out people, sometimes very directly

Have had hides because of it. But (maybe to my credit) eventually they get tombstoned. Years of DU experience give you a pretty sensitive sniffer to mole smell.

[hfojvt]

75. actually it could apply to a lot of people

perhaps a number of people are saying "that sounds like me".

Or perhaps I am the only one.

Well, except for the part about "it would be easy to crush him in a debate".

That, of course, does not sound anything like me.

[notadmblnd]

27. You could have been talking about me. I've been particularly annoying lately

Seriously though, I stopped worrying about my mental health back when I realized that there is no normal. It's funny though that you chose someone with a mental illness that was reflected in his music to begin a discussion of mental illness. Especially since his thinking was so clear when he was at his worst.

[H2O Man]

28. As a general rule,

I've concluded that those who question their own normalcy tend to be stable and healthy; while those who don't, tend to be less so. Self-reflection is, when done honestly, sometimes painful, but nevertheless essential.

I suppose I could have been talking about myself, for that matter. Heavens knows I talk to myself enough.

[bvar22]

61. "Self-reflection is, when done honestly, sometimes painful, but nevertheless essential."

I've always enjoyed the thoughtful content of your posts,
and the care with which they are written,
but I will give you a DURec if your post were only this line:

'Self-reflection is, when done honestly, sometimes painful, but nevertheless essential."

AFAIC, THAT is the Meaning of Life.

"An unexamined life is not worth living." (attributed to Socrates)


The Catch-22 in all of this is that NO man (or woman) can examine their own lives.
We REQUIRE other people to see what we can't see.
DU actually does that for many.

[H2O Man]

62. Right.

We have a glimpse of ourselves, but it is subjective.

I recently asked a friend who she was?
Was she who she thought she was?
Who others think she is?
Or who she really is?

She did not find the answer -- "Yes" -- fully satisfying. In time, she might.

[bvar22]

64. When I was 39, I had a conversation with an ancient Black Man on Park Bench in New Orleans.

At first, I thought he was just "slow", but soon realized he was thinking over everything I had said BEFORE formulating his reply.

After a while, he asked me, "Who are you?"
I answered him with a list of things I could do...like my occupation, my skills, and my abilities.

He shouted, ,loud enough for the whole Park to conspicuously hear,
"NO!!!! Those are the things you can DO.
I asked you who you are, NOT what you can do."

I have thought of that old man frequently over the last 35 years.
I believe I could answer him today.

[H2O Man]

66. Very interesting.

I had almost included in my response that -- at least in my opinion -- it's usually older people, with long life experience, that truly grasp this concept of being. Which isn't to say that younger folks can't, or never do ....but it seems more common in older folks.

[bvar22]

67. I was very lucky to meet that old man on the bench that day.

I have never forgotten.

I have few memories that burned themselves into my soul like that old man did that day.
I never saw him again, though consciously walked past that bench a hundred times looking for him.

[mopinko]

33. no name, no call out.

i havent a clue who he is talking about, and pretty sure nearly no one else does.

[H2O Man]

39. Thanks.

No one knows of whom I was speaking -- probably not even me. That was a small aside, merely to say that we are all human, and likely to find at least one person here particularly annoying. I'm sure that a number of people identify me as a pain in the ass. It happens.

[mopinko]

47. there is a prize in every box.

i live in one of chicago's most liberal, weird and environmentally concerned wards. most folks love my farm with a capital L. but a handful hate it.
some of them hated it from day one.

strikes me as quite strange that they would hate to see a long time eyesore bloom, but....

[H2O Man]

58. I'm convinced

that there are people who simply can not be happy without having something to be "outraged" by. Years ago, the village one of my brothers lived in passed a handful of laws about how long the grass on a lawn could be, etc. The laws were not passed to deal with any identified problem. Just some new elected officials attempting to prove they were serious about creating the village beautiful.

Upon my suggestion, my brother made his front lawn into a garden. He was issued several tickets, after one neighbor complained. He won in court, of course. But that he even had to go seemed mighty odd to me.

[mopinko]

69. yeah, the city/alderman hate those calls.

hence my trouble. 3 lawsuits by the city.
on the fb page in a photo album.

[sunnystarr]

70. Yawn ... (nt)

[Shandris]

11. While I find the tendency to label things 'personality disorders' to be offputting...

...I think I agree overall with the gist of the post. I'm probably a good example, even, given my pure conservative upbringing and...unique combination of factors that make the thought of a 'social' society the worst nightmare in the history of the known world to me.

Ah well, just kind of thinking aloud I suppose. Good post.

[H2O Man]

12. Thanks.

I tend to dislike labels, myself. But I like models. "Personality" tends to include both, I suppose.

[CentralMass]

14. Some background music

?t=12

[H2O Man]

16. Thank you!

[zeemike]

23. That is what I thought when I read the headline.

And I would have posted if you had not.

Kicked this and recommended the OP, as usual H2O man is a thoughtful person...and an exultant writer.

[tavalon]

20. Best discussion of mental illness vs. personality disorders I've ever seen

and it's easy to see how those folks will create havoc with so little constraining of their behavior (as happens on an internet forum).

As a person who grew up in a household that produced personality disordered folks and having been through decades of therapy to learn better behavior (luckily, I only lived in that household for five years - my step-siblings never had a chance) I am able to pick a person with such defects easily. And in real life, I avoid them carefully. I find I get too triggered to behave compassionately with them so I avoid.

I need to remember not to engage such people on this forum. It's like teaching a pig to dance.......

[H2O Man]

30. Family systems are

curious things. As the American economic system caused changes in family systems -- from the more supportive extended families of the agricultural phase, to the nuclear family of the industrial age, to the shattered family of the high-tech era -- it has likely mass-produced the type of personalities required for the work force.

In my own family of origin, my siblings and I had to guess at what was "normal." It surely couldn't be found inside our family system. I was perhaps lucky to be the youngest, in that I could benefit from my siblings' experiences.

It's not hard to find patterns, as you note, where we could easily fall back into patterns in relationships to people in real life, or even on the internet .....where one suddenly realizes they have had this argument before, with someone else, etc.

Strange thing, being human.

[Control-Z]

21. Always thoughtful, H2O Man.

Though, not sure where I land here.

"Maybe keep this in mind, when you participate in conversations on this forum. Even those you naturally think of as annoying -- or simply as jackasses -- may be good people, who have been damaged by life. If that damage had been done to them physically, we would surely be patient with them. But instead, it is people who’s being has been injured by life. Be patient. Be compassionate. If necessary, disengage. But don’t react with anger or hostility. "

There is no doubt I've been damaged by life. Though I try not to lash out, and honestly, have throughout my life been a doormat. But the way I see things still means something. I try not to push even my most ardent agendas, with vitriol, insults, and false accusations.

It is so difficult for me to understand being mean and disrespectful of others to support a "democratic" candidate. But I will try to be more mindful of those who do. I'm sure many have suffered far worse than I, and I will try to remember that. We all have our own way of dealing with pain.

[H2O Man]

35. I remember, many years ago,

when Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman was describing a position that he had selected me to serve in. He said that it would require several layers of thick skin. I said that I was prepared for our opposition to attack me. Paul laughed, and said that was the easy part. He was warning me about when friends and allies would attack me.

I think that growing up -- to the extent that I did -- in my family of origin helped prepare me for that. That's an example of why we are always thankful for our lives, even that which seems very unpleasant at the time. It prepares us for something important in the future.

[JackInGreen]

22. Bril

As always, thanks H20man

[H2O Man]

36. Thanks, JackInGreen!

[Fairgo]

24. That was fun

Enjoyed your psychological interpretation of the weirdness that tends to infiltrate conversations on the 'tubes. Its unavoidable I think on any site that attracts diverse populations to speak openly about emotionally charged issues. Its a self organising system. We are social creatures that seek group affiliation. Shared values and threat create a need for the group. The DU name reflects the unifying nature of these two forces...democratic values sheltered underground from a countervailing political storm. Democratic values include diversity...diversity leads to debate, debate without training leads to conflict... Internal Conflict creates boundaries that start to create sub-identities, and a habit of conflict become reinforcing rituals. The anonymity behind the glass and the smell of conflict actually attracts the more diagnosable personalities. Heighten the underlying pressure with an impending election and viola! Here we are.

I think it is wise to accept that we are all more prone to weirdness than we like to admit, especially in groups. Once the group takes on a life of its own, it can become completely unmoored from the values that ostensibly brought it together. The Milford studies and Human history will attest to just how extreme we humans can get and still make it home for tea.

I'll never be a prolific poster, but i will not be driven out by the poo throwing on the otherside of the glass. Because i refuse to defend myself past the argument i endorse. I won't be drawn into "i know you are but what am I?" beyond the second round. Because it is no longer amusing. I will however lose interest in the site if it floats afar from the values that attracts me...the Democratic part of the Underground... I had one accolyte inform me that values were not important because...the red shirts would win if arglebargle. No response was necessary because his argument imploded at the rejection of values. No need for a full blown personality disorder here, just an untrained mind in the mob. But if that mob ever grows to command the site, or I sense the administrators agree that values do not matter more than team identity, i will simply lose interest. Democratic Underground, without its values is just a hole created by shoveling dirt, to push the metaphor.

As long as people like you can speak their minds, the DU light shines on.

[H2O Man]

40. Very interesting. Thanks.

The group dynamics can be mighty weird, too ....no surprise there. And they can be ignited from something as simple as the "I know you are, but what am I?" you mention. Even long past insults tend to flare up into the newest episodes of the same stale fight that has gone unresolved for years here.

And some people -- including some I like a great deal, as well as a few that I don't -- seem to get vicious responses from groups that appear to follow them closely. I don't see the benefit to being confrontational with someone you disagree with. In quite a few cases, I've found that people here that I've disagreed with -- and wasn't fond of early on -- turn out to be among my favorite friends here.

[KT2000]

25. computer "road rage"

is a great analogy. I have wondered if anyone has analyzed driving behavior since it brings out the worst of individualism in some people. I have seen people I considered calm and level-headed turn into total jerks as drivers. As a pedestrian I have had people use their cars to intimidate me to move out of the way. Now drivers are also engaged in sending texts and phone calls. The sense of isolation and self-involvement has increased enormously.

Such a world may exist for us when sitting behind a computer too. We are the masters of our own bubbles! How to live this way without sacrificing real social interaction with all its consequences is the challenge. Part of who we are is the growth that comes from social interaction with others. The cyber-world will certainly stunt some people.

[H2O Man]

41. Right.

I think the dynamics involved in road rage, and internet hostilities, are so closely related, that it deserves close attention. I realize that no one is going to be physically injured (or killed) by a hostile comment on DU:GD, but it is still an unhealthy trend. And I recognize that I'm probably more sensitive to "road rage" than most, after last October.

There's too much hate in the United States today. It just happens to seep out on the highways and internet, because there is that wall that separates one person from another. As liberals and progressives, we should be taking such walls down, and building bridges.

[arithia]

26. Great post

Even those who aren't mentally ill or struggling with a personality disorder can be fundamentally, cognitively rigged in such a way to make conceptualizing something.. let alone attaining it.. impossible.

How to put this... have you ever met someone who was really awful at something, but thought they were spectacular? To pick a benign example, you see it a lot in multiplayer gaming. They might even be a great person (making it all the more painful to watch) as they fail miserably but think they doing fine. Well.. there is a reason for that.

We as human beings ALL have our Dunning-Kruger- be it tied to social intelligence, the ability to cook, sing, dance or not stand in fire during a video game. Research has shown time and again that this is the case. This isn't due to some personal fault- it's the lack of a neural pathway. It's why hallucinogens have been so successful in treating personality disorders and various genetic mental illnesses- they cause new neural pathways to form. Long term therapy can help, but due to piss poor mental health services and stigmas world wide, few people actually get the help they need.

Bottom line is, it's easier to spot when that "Break" impacts social skills and behavior. Some of us get luckier with that "break" than others, but it's there for all of us. Some people seemingly won't get what you are saying, no matter how many times you explain or how patiently. Getting mad at people over their Break is like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die. Gentle persuasion and correction, however, just might result in their brain building a new bridge. Eventually. Likely long after your interaction with them. XD

We are also a species that primarily leans more from our errors than our successes. Good reasons to remain empathetic to even those we might want to reach out and shake in frustration. heh

[H2O Man]

43. Thank you.

I find your last paragraph particularly interesting, because it reminds me of one of my friend Rubin "Hurricane" Carter's old sayings:

"Smart people learn from others' mistakes; most of us have to learn from our own; and fools -- well, fools never learn."

[ms liberty]

29. Great post...

DU seems to be a boiling cauldron of dysfunction right now. I've never been a prolific poster - as evidenced by my post count and length of membership! - I just don't enjoy squabbling back and forth to no purpose. There are a number of members who seem to be invested in proving their worth by being as divisive, nasty and mean as they can get away with. And then there are the people who enjoy and encourage that sort of thing. Shrug...bullies always have an entourage. I've been practising disengagement for quite a while. If I type a reply to any post, I read it and read it again, then ask myself if its worth my time before I hit post. Usually I erase and back out, because it's not worth it. You're one of the few DU'ers I actually reply to on a regular basis, because you are a reasonable and thoughtful man, and one for whom I have so much respect! On another note, your post reminds me of a conversation mr liberty related to me between him and one of his coworkers. They were discussing another coworker's annoying habit of turning every conversation into a lesson on the benefits of his fundamentalist Christian beliefs (Hell! Teh Gays! Wimmen! EVIL Muslin POTUS!). The coworker said to mr liberty, "just don't engage" and put his hand in front of his face, vertically and straight, with his thumb facing his nose, and waved outward and down, as he said engage. We laughed about it, but its become our go-to response to the people who want to spread the negative. I use it every day at DU, lately!

[H2O Man]

31. Although I usually try

to respond to posts on an OP in order, when I see certain names (of my favorite friends on DU), I sometimes skip around a bit. This being the case here ....

First, thank you for your kind words. The feeling is mutual. I have a comfort level in talking with you that, should we disagree, insures that it is as "safe" to express our opinions, as when we agree. And that it the way it should be. (I can't think of anything we've disagreed upon right now, but I'm sure that at some point, we have. If not, feel free to disagree with me, although that would prove my point!)

There are many people who are quite comfortable with the current tone of DU. They tend to view political discussions as requiring debate, and exchanges to be measured in a "win vs lose" context. Attacking the person, as a means of discrediting their opinion, is not only acceptable, but viewed as an art.

Now, I'm not opposed to serious debate. But those that require harshness, for me, are limited to the public square, when confronted by a right-wing republican. I'm always up for that. But even then, the exchanges are intended for the audience, not to destroy another person, no matter how toxic they may seem at that moment. And I don't see the benefits of engaging in that type of thing here.

I'm always glad to see when the Good People of this community speak up. And obviously, I include you as one of my favorites!

[OneGrassRoot]

32. I found myself making a similar point...

in my responses in a long thread now. Not with regard to other DUers necessarily, but in regard to how we respond to events themselves (like Seattle). I didn't flesh it out, but then I see your post (and I always read your posts, when I'm here) and see this echoed and you HAVE fleshed it out.

Thank you.

[H2O Man]

34. Interesting timing!

I was just reading your OP and the responses ......and you are "required reading" here for me!

I was tempted to respond to your OP with "respectfully disagree" (though I fully agree), and then go into a rant about "they are clearly talking about me/attacking me/ don't they know all the good works I've done?" type histrionics. But I keep in mind my children saying that the only person on Earth who appreciates my pathetic attempts at humor is my brother. (On Face Book, his daughters often respond to my attempts with, "OMG! That's a joke that Dad would tell!&quot

Keep on fighting The Good Fight! You always present your thoughts in an orderly, calm, and rational manner, that I find so impressive!

[OneGrassRoot]

38. That means a great deal to me...

thank you.

[H2O Man]

44. Your friendship

means a great deal to me!

[malaise]

37. We need more ramblings like this one WaterMan

Rec

[H2O Man]

46. Thanks!

I suppose DU:GD is stuck with me anyhow. (grin)

[lovemydog]

42. Another thoughtful post H2O Man.

Thank you.

Another thing I've noticed. If I'm really pissed off at someone's post, I can choose to respond to another post that I like more. That way I feel I'm giving positive reinforcement in my own brain to something that's pleasurable. As opposed to giving too much attention to something I don't like, which can then become a vicious cycle of negativity.

Hope that made some sense.

Have a great Saturday!

[H2O Man]

48. It makes sense!

And hopefully, I am not alone in seeing the benefits in borrowing this tactic from you.

It's funny: in the English language, there are more that 500 words to describe a person's character in a negative way, but only about 100 to apply a positive characterization. That suggests that we tend to focus too much on what we view as bad, rather than focusing on what is good. Of course, I say that as someone who thinks that people are more good than bad.

[Uncle Joe]

45. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

49. Thanks, Uncle Joe.

I'm still thinking about that grizzly bear's paw.

[ananda]

50. Sometimes I need the occasional annoying gadfly.

Especially if they help me think better or correct a mistake.

But when it comes to rightwing neonazi types, I really have
to draw a line.

[H2O Man]

52. They can be

entertaining, sometimes.

Those who self-identify with violent hate groups are not my cup of tea, either. I have no interest in their opinions, etc.

[Zorra]

51. By consistently not providing an "audience", we may be able to help those with personality

disorders who act out, to some degree.

If attention is a reward, then we remove at least some motivation for negative behavior.

This may lead them to reassess their behavior, and take positive steps to learn how to to deal with stress and frustration in a more constructive manner.

"If a tree falls in the forest..."

I'm not sure if expressed compassion is a good response in situations where attention is sought through acting out. Passive compassion, while not responding at all, may be more productive, although thoughtful, well considered compassionate redirection may be an effective means of dealing constructively with personality disordered individuals, (on the internet). In real life, avoidance, to the greatest degree possible may be the wisest course of action to help ensure personal safety from individuals who may be a threat to our physical well being.

Better Students - Attention Seeking

This includes a number of behaviors–making funny noises, rude gestures, faces, talking, interrupting, whining–done primarily to attract people’s attention, gain peer approval, or mask learning problems. Also, some children adopt attention-seeking behaviors, because they do not know any other ways of getting people to look at them or listen to what they are saying. Occasional clowning around is part of being a child, but when it turns into a child’s main way of interacting, it becomes a problem.

-Pay attention to children when they are behaving the right way. This prevents children from resorting to silly behaviors to get your attention, and also promotes their self-confidence.

-Teach children the right ways of getting adult attention and making requests. For instance, if you are talking to another child, children must stand quietly and wait for you to recognize them, and then they can say, “Excuse me,” before starting in on what they have to say. When asking questions children should use a big voice and only ask their question once. Discourage children from whining (using a thin nasally tone of voice), and nagging (asking the same question over and over again).

-Ignore it. Attention-seeking behavior with no audience has little pay-off.

http://better-students.com/attention-seeking/

[H2O Man]

53. Very good!

And I definitely agree that it can be good to talk to people, and try to find common ground. And to be compassionate, and recognize that they are the product of unhappiness. But there are times when people will abuse even that. When that happens, I believe in having a firm boundary, until such time that they are able to control their behaviors.

[Babel_17]

54. Interesting

"There are no longer 'dancers.' the possessed. The cleavage of men into actor and spectators is the central fact of our time. We are obsessed with heroes who live for us and whom we punish. If all the radios and televisions were deprived of their sources of power, all books and paintings burned tomorrow, all shows and cinemas closed, all the arts of vicarious existence...

We are content in the 'given' in sensation's quest. We have been metamorphosised from a mad body dancing on hillsides to a pair of eyes staring in the dark."

-- James Douglas Morrison from The Lords and the New Creatures.

"Players" -- the child, the actor, and the gambler.
The idea of chance is absent from the world of
the child and the primitive. The gambler also
feels in service of an alien power. Chance is a
survival of religion in the modern city . . .
-- Jim Morrison

Both quotes were used, separately, as introductions for two novels by Daniel Keys Moran.

I tend to post quotes and links like that, that's reflective of my damage, I guess.

Bold added by me

[H2O Man]

56. The older generation

warned kids my age that we would be damaged from listening to Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and John Lennon. It's a miracle that I survived! But I admit to being addicted to listening to their music ....especially loud, on a beautiful summer day like today!

[GoneOffShore]

55. The old Amish proverb:

Everyone is crazy except me and thee and I find thee a bit queer.

(a. Deviating from what is expected or normal; strange: "The light above his head made a queer reflection of himself in the glowing wineglass" (Carson McCullers).
b. Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric: "His mother is very queer, with witchy hair and mismatched shoes" (Caroline Preston).
c. Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious: thought there was something queer about his explanation.)

[H2O Man]

57. A group of Amish

bought three local farms near me. I love the "Share the Road" signs that have gone up in the past month! And, while I don't know my new neighbors by name, they are a friendly group.

Now, I realize my response is tangential to your point, but I am watching a beautiful horse & buggy going by.

[Quayblue]

63. you put into words, so many of my thoughts

Thank you

[H2O Man]

65. Thank you.

I'm glad that you read my essay, and responded to it!

[Quayblue]

68. I always read your posts and you're welcome

You think and put it out here in the world, and it's appreciated.

[hootinholler]

71. So when we meet a fellow with a big chip on his shoulder...

We shouldn't follow our first instinct to knock it off?



Maybe we should consider that they didn't put the chip there. Maybe they don't even know the chip is there having borne the weight of it so long they're used to it, like wearing a ring. Maybe it's so ingrained in a survival mechanism that they take comfort in it. Maybe I even have my own chip and don't know it's there.

I wish I was better at this being human stuff.

How can we overcome this thing?

Thank you for writing.

Now let's go get those bush bastards!

[H2O Man]

72. I found, years ago,

that I was carrying a boulder on my shoulder. It's been an on-going effort to keep it off. And likely there are fragments of chips that I'm not even aware of.

Yes, it's time to focus on the real opposition!

[Crunchy Frog]

73. I have to take some issue with this post.

I have recently become unusually sensitized to both the casual labeling of people as having "personality disorders" and the making of sweeping generalizations about people so labeled.

This is likely because (full disclosure) I was given that "diagnosis" and label ~15 months ago by and inexperienced, poorly supervised, and overenthusiastic, student therapist who did my intake assessment at a local mental health clinic that takes Medicaid, where I went to get help with my issues with depression and anxiety.

While I did manage to get the diagnosis removed from my record, it left a major impression on me, and it led me to doing lots of research on the subject of personality disorders.

Just FYI, as of the DSM5, these disorders are no longer listed on a separate axis. There is also, now, a good deal of research suggesting that their is a strong genetic component to these disorders.

These disorders are considered to be difficult to accurately diagnose, and there is general agreement that they should only be diagnosed by highly qualified clinicians utilizing appropriate diagnostic tools, or other means of gathering and analyzing large quantities of relevant information about the person; hence the agreement that my own diagnosis was an invalid one.

People who receive this diagnostic label are often highly stigmatized. It can impact their job prospects and their standing in court proceedings, among other things. There are therapists who will refuse to treat people who have this label on their record. There are doctors who will dismiss, even serious physical complaints, from people with this label, with sometimes lethal consequences. Thousands of soldiers who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and suffer from PTSD, TBI, or have been victims of sexual assault, have been unjustly labeled with "personality disorder" in order to discharge them from the military and avoid having to give them the veteran and medical benefits that they earned. Disposable Soldiers

While you may very well be qualified to make this sort of diagnosis, I don't believe that there is anyone who is qualified to make it on the basis of someone's internet postings. I would urge you to be a little more sensitive and careful in throwing these labels around.

I apologize for the hypersensitivity and the lecture, but I lived with this label on my record for 15 months, and only got rid of it through the grace of God. And this could happen to anyone who happens to walk into the wrong therapist's office. And not everyone can get rid of the label, no matter how invalidly it was arrived at.

[H2O Man]

74. Some topics are uncomfortable.

The issue of personality disorders is certainly one of them. But it is an interesting and important one, for people to consider, while participating on a forum like this when hostility has saturated more than 50% of the conversations on DU:GD and DU:GDP.

I'd note that no individual was in any way identified, and no person was labeled .....nor given a diagnosis. In the general population of the United States, estimates suggest that as many as 1 in 6 adults has personality qualities that are related to "personality disorders." Unlike a more serious mental illness, these quirks do not tend to cause any discomfort for the individual who has them. Hence, such a discussion as people are having here is a good thing.

But I know what you are saying. People can feel uncomfortable engaging in such conversations. Even in something as basic as an abnormal psychology course, at a 200 level, it is fairly common to have, at some point in the semester, a student leave a classroom, in or nearly in tears. So it should be as non-judgmental as possible. But such discussions, like introductory college courses, as important.

[Crunchy Frog]

78. It's the sweeping generalizations, coupled with the label

And the fact that I bore that label for 15 months. For that reason, it almost feels like a personal slur against myself.

Not everyone who posts obnoxiously on message boards has a mental illness, and not everyone with a mental illness posts obnoxiously on message boards.

Why not post about the behavior itself, rather than making generalized statements about an entire group of people bearing a particular diagnostic label?

[H2O Man]

79. Right.

It's a label that you are sensitive about, because someone mis-diagnosed it. And it was in a situation -- and I'm speculating to an extent -- where you had entered with a degree of trust, opened up, and were hoping for some insight that would be helpful to you. Unfortunately, one out of ten therapists graduates in the bottom 10% of their class -- it cannot be otherwise -- and some diagnoses are simply incorrect.

And, particularly in females, that one is over-diagnosed. In part, it is because of insurance -- in order to get paid, a clinician has to apply some label to a person after a few meetings. In many instances, if nothing else stands out, they go with "old reliable." For every female -- and, indeed, every male -- will have some personality feature that can be associated with borderline PD.

But I don't know you. I don't even know if you are male or female. I recognize your "name" here, because it is different, and interesting enough to stand out. But I certainly do not associate "Crunchy Frog" with the toxic arguing that damages meaningful conversations on this forum. And it is that toxicity that I am referencing in the OP.

I would venture that every person on DU who has posted a few thousand comments has had one or two (or more) that where grumpy, reactive, or even hostile. That's human nature. For there are no saints -- not on DU, nor in real life. There are just human beings.And it is not the few grumpy, reactive, or even hostile comments that are blurted out every so often that I was focusing on. Rather, it is the people who engage in that tone, or language, on a frequent, on-going basis, as the primary means of discussing disagreements. And by no coincidence, those are not the people who tend to read anything I post here, much less the type who would ever question if the topic applied in any way to them. Thus, the OP cannot be talking about you, or people with similar situations.

The reasons why I opt to write the way I do can perhaps be summed up most accurately by two factors: I try to write about that which I am familiar with, as it applies to "current events"; and about issues that I think may be of interest (or value) to others here. Over the years, for example, I've written about the great sport of boxing -- and not just for the sports forum. I've noted numerous times that "all of life imitates the sport of boxing." Not everyone agrees, of course, but I believe that my essays about society and politics that take a boxing approach are on target. I also write about sociology and psychology, to the same results.

[Crunchy Frog]

80. I wanted to reply to this. Sorry it took me awhile.

The "therapist" who diagnosed me (still unlicensed, and in training at the time) more than likely graduated near the top of her class, at least I would guess, based on what I've seen of her internet presence. She seems like an overachieving, eager beaver type.

I am indeed female, and have become aware of the fact that Borderline PD is currently an "in" diagnosis. I was diagnosed with PD NOS. I'm about as far from having "borderline" features as you could get. She was not my therapist, and it was really not about "opening up and trusting" her. My encounter with her lasted a grand total of 90 minutes, which included filling out paperwork and signing forms. She was the person who did my intake at a "largest (regional) provider of outpatient mental health services" and a "training center of excellence for (local area) students".

She gave me one other highly stigmatizing misdiagnosis as well, which I fought for months to get removed from my record. I only found out about this PD diagnosis after receiving the first installment of my clinical record, in what has been a four month long struggle to extract my records from this facility.

Both the PD diagnosis, and the other one, were purely gratuitous, playing no role in any 3rd party reimbursement, and no role in my actual treatment. The diagnosis utilized for reimbursement purposes was Major Depressive Disorder (which was my presenting complaint). I think she made the diagnoses just because she could. A big ego, no meaningful supervision, and an institutional culture that promotes and encourages a careless and cavalier attitude towards making DSM diagnoses among the student therapists (personal communication with clinical director).

There were not even any diagnostic assessments done. There was a mental status exam, a biopsychosocial history, and a few screening questionnaires. According to the clinic director, the students are encouraged to make DSM diagnoses based on their "impressions" and their "feelings", and are not encouraged to check their "diagnoses" against anything so pedestrian as the DSM criteria or actual diagnostic assessment instruments.

I had an opportunity today to look at my electronic records. There is literally nothing there. There is the raw data from the screenings and assessments, and the list of diagnoses, without any kind of analysis or interpretation, or anything that connects the raw data to the diagnoses. No lists of signs, symptoms, or rationales for the diagnoses either (apart from a very brief rationale for the primary one). I personally find this mindboggling, but the clinical director says that this is normal and accepted practice in the mental health field, though I have found no evidence to corroborate this claim, other than his word.

This is only the tip of the iceberg of the weird shit that I've dealt with in my 15 months as a patient or "client" at this facility.

I apologize for dumping all this on you. It's really not topical to the subject of your thread. I only formally terminated as a patient there 1 1/2 weeks ago, and am still feeling extremely raw from the experience. I'm still trying to figure out where to go from here. I really want to file some formal complaints for professional misconduct, as I feel that has been going on in spades, but don't know whether this is a good idea or not.

This is my first and last foray into utilizing Medicaid to pay for mental health services. I will be scraping up the money to pay for it out of pocket from now on.

Again, I apologize for straying so far from the subject of your thread and using it to process my recent, traumatic health care experiences.

Anyone reading this who is a mental health professional, I would be very interested in your feedback, if you wish to PM me.

[H2O Man]

81. Thank you.

I appreciate that you shared your story here. I wish that I could say that your experience is extremely rare, but it unfortunately is not. Frequently on DU:GD, I talk about “systems,” and the events you speak of bring to mind two systems that come into play. I have experience as an employee of both, and hence may have some insights that you may find interesting. They are, of course, merely the opinions of a now-retired psychiatric social worker, who did a bit of teaching graduate students from the state university in their “field experience.” I’ll add that while my performance reviews were always at the highest level, various systems viewed me as a pain in the ass from time to time.

The goal of the university system is to have paying students enrolled in classes. The goal of teachers is to instruct and inspire students. But not all students are created equal. Some graduate in the top of their class, others in the middle, and some at the bottom. But, so long as they are paying, the university system promotes everyone with a passing grade.

Even among those in the top of their class, students will have different life experiences, beliefs, and goals. And abilities to relate to different populations, ranging from those in their comfort level, to those far outside of it.

From college, they go on to employment. This may be at a clinic, private practice, or a range of other settings. In each, there are two goals: to assist others, and to make money. These two goals have the potential to conflict: in order to get paid by a person’s insurance carrier, for example, one has to apply a diagnosis -- which implies a treatment method and goals. So now, we have the therapist-patient relationship, being impacted by the synergy of three external systems.

There are many, many talented, caring, insightful, and capable mental health providers. They are able to assist the person who is coming to them for help, and also navigate the bureaucratic systems. That is not to imply that they are “perfect” -- whatever “perfect” may be -- but they are outstanding, overall, in what they do.

There are also plenty who are good in some areas, not so good in others. And there are some who just aren’t good, at all. For the same education that builds the foundation for a talented therapist to help people, can be mis-used or abused by an un-talented individual. Sad to say that in my years of employment, I saw a handful of people who had no business being mental health providers; a few were dangerous.

I’ll fight the urge to talk on and on here! Obviously, I tend to babble on and on. So I’ll say this: there are a lot of people who can benefit from therapy, who not only do not have a major mental illness, but really don’t have any “diagnosis” other than having issues with family, friends, co-workers, etc, and some degree of discomfort, and who do not have a support system that includes an objective person to talk to. Quite often, having an objective person who can help them re-arrange the order of the way they view certain factors is all they need. Someone to say, yes, you are correct in assessing a problem, have you tried dealing with it this way? For, in the final analysis, we are all people. Just human beings, trying our best.

[hfojvt]

76. interesting and I like that song

However, I would point out, that it can seem like somebody is "following you around" when they really are not.

Although I was, on DU2 following you and several others around. The buddy list feature would tell me when one of my "buddies" had added something to their journal. I put people on my buddy list, not because we were friends (although I probably tended to like the people on my buddy list, in an unrequited sort of way though and I would say a friendship needs to be mutual) but because, in my estimation, they wrote things that were worth reading.

I sorta take credit, in some ways, for 'discovering' the DUer "Timeforchange". He wrote long essays, so they tended to sink. I first found him on like the second or third page of GD. My KNRs brought him back to the first page, where his essays got more views. As more people read them, he eventually started making the front page with each new post.

Also, about 'being involved in his life'. Well, by sharing your thoughts with US, including HIM, you are involved in our life, to a perhaps minor extent, but even the minor can be major. E-friends seem to me, at least in my bubble, to be as real as any other friends I have.

For example, in two minutes, I am going to church. I generally see the same people every week, a small group, and we know each others' real names, and maybe a few other things about each other. But I only see them once a week, and they obviously do not know as much about what I think as they would if they had read most of my posts on DU.

Heck, they might not even know I have a rather severe borderline personality disorder.

Well, I am an Aspie, I believe, although I do not consider THAT to be a disorder.

[Faux pas]

77. Saving for later

lol the thinking part of my day is over.