A 2016 Primary Proposal

[H2O Man]

What is the most obnoxious thing that people such as Sean Hannity do when it comes to differences of opinion? Yep, you got it -- he automatically ascribes the most offensively vile motives to those who disagree with him. If you didn’t like George W. Bush, for example, it was because you hated America. If you support women’s right to health care, you clearly favor the brutal murder of infants. If you favor marriage equality, you are engaged in the war on Christianity.

This is, of course, the weakest excuse for meaningful debate. It shows a lack of confidence in one’s position. The combination of concrete thinking (“if you don’t like A, you must like B”) and disgusting insults (no examples necessary) highlight just how shallow Sean et al are. It is nature’s way of communicating a warning of toxicity.

I said that, to say this: the vast majority of folks who are part of the DU community are good and sincere individuals, fully capable of determining if the will -- or will not -- vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 -- if she is indeed in the primary contests and the general election. There are numerous valid reasons why a person might support or not support her potential candidacy. I believe that is true for even those among the DU community who post foolish things about the ethics and motivations of those who think differently than themselves.

If we keep open minds, and focus on communicating what our opinions are -- rather than attacking other people who honestly think differently (even very differently) -- there is a possibility we may influence others, and perhaps even convince them. More, there is a very real possibility we might learn something, ourselves. Besides that, a closed mind tends to be much like a closed room -- stuffy.

Having been on DU since 2003, I recognize that primary season isn’t a pillow fight here. Yet we have the option of meaningful discourse. Let’s use it.

[randys1]

1. ---*

[H2O Man]

14. Some people even

go so far as to think they can determine another's race, based upon if they support a specific candidate. Hard to believe, right? I know. But here is a quote from an OP from yesterday:

"I am torn between calling these people white, upper middle class libertarians who dont much care about civil rights, cuz they got all they need, or Women's rights, because they aint one, or teapartiers."

Now, it would be easy to point out a number of errors in thinking from that OP. But, you've gotta admit, claiming insight to race beats all, doesn't it?

[randys1]

18. Well then it should be easy to prove, lets do a poll...let's ask minorities and Women and Gay folks

where they fall

you will have to do it, I cant


simply ask them if they will

a. vote for Hillary if she is the nominee

b. NOT vote for Hillary NO MATTER WHAT even if that means a rightwing, Gay hating, Woman hating, minority hating teapartier is elected...


Now, I am willing to put up some serious money on this, but first we have to have a credible way of knowing who is voting.

[H2O Man]

19. No, thank you.

I'd be ashamed to be associated with that type of foolishness.

[randys1]

20. YOu would be ashamed to find out if certain groups value their civil rights more than others?

why?

[H2O Man]

22. Er, no.

I meant exactly what I said. Hence, I said it.

I do realize that a person who claimed the ability to determine a person's race, based entirely upon their level of support for a specific candidate, would feel compelled to try to twist things, and distract attention from what they said.

[bvar22]

31. That is a perfect example of what the OP was about.

You assume way too much.

[brooklynite]

2. Well, if you're going to take all the fun out of it.....

Seriously, I'd like to agree, and we've gone through plenty of political tussles before. But in the same vein as a religious argument where one side starts with "you CAN'T be a good person because you done't believe in.....", it's hard to have a thoughtful discussion when one side tends to gravitate towards (you CAN'T be a real Democrat if you support.....".

[H2O Man]

15. Right.

I think a serious debate about each and every democratic candidate is not only a good thing, but I believe it is essential. And fun.

[NYC_SKP]

3. And, insults and attacks against motives are not only counterproductive, they make one less bright.

.
Sean Hannity is a perfect example of this phenomenon.

Repeated behaviors become innate, and repeated use of lies make one more consistently a liar.

Conversely, the more one loves and listens, the more natural these become.

Recommended.

[H2O Man]

16. Thanks.

I can understand why republicans are grumpy and prone to arguing, considering their fields of candidates in the last few presidential contests. But our party has fielded a good number of solid candidates. I'm hoping that 2016 affords meaningful choices, too.

[HappyMe]

4. As always, well said.

[Scuba]

6. +1

[H2O Man]

17. Thanks!

[cyberswede]

5. I'd love it if DUers take your advice.

Primary season is going to be a bloodbath here.

[bigwillq]

10. Can't wait!

That's when DU is at its best!

[H2O Man]

21. In the 2008 primary,

one DUer told others here that she had "secret proof" that I was actually Patrick Buchanan. Her reason for this was because, in February, I decided that I would support Obama, rather than Clinton.

I am not, nor have I ever been, Patrick Buchanan.

[Hepburn]

27. I hope not...

...in April, it will be 11 years that I have been on the DU and, boy, do I remember the fights over who should be the nominee.

Frankly, I can support Hillary, Warren, Bernie or anyone who runs against the asshole the Repukes will put up. So I like all our choices. I am hoping that we do not destroy each other during the primaries and I sincerely hope we discuss and do not anger each other.

Hugs from Hepburn.

[libdem4life]

7. I have always felt that a Liberal is one who is willing to listen, to give thought to

what they hear...as no one knows it all...understands there are many nuances to every situation, and willing to make a change in their own position, if appropriate, and be better informed because of the experience.

A Conservative, to me, is one who parrots the past that equals their present as a given into the future, does not listen, everything is black and white, will never change their minds or wade into new or expanding issues.

Open Mind vs. Closed Mind

JMHO.

[H2O Man]

23. Well said!

Thank you!

[beerandjesus]

8. But, but... what if I only say I want Warren because I REALLY want RAND PAUL??

[H2O Man]

34. I suspected as much!

It seemed to me that you are putting into practice subversive mind-control operations, perfected by Soviet psychiatrists to program a generation of American citizens to listen to The Beatles' White Album backwards. I mean, I'm not pointing fingers or anything. But I'm glad that you've confessed. Repent, and follow the path that Wall Street has selected for us. It's the only safe way to continue in this adventure.

[beerandjesus]

42. Hahaha!

[Jack Rabbit]

9. K/R

!!

[H2O Man]

35. Thanks!

[CK_John]

11. IMO, right now we have a better chance of no primaries.

[H2O Man]

36. I agree.

I think that would be damaging, not only to the party, but even to Hillary Clinton if she indeed is to be the democratic candidate. A good primary can prepare a candidate for the general election.

I do believe that Clinton is capable of taking on any republican candidate, even if she doesn't face any primary challenges. I'm confident that she would thrash any of the republicans that are expressing interest in getting in the mix at this point.

[byronius]

12. Why, you must prefer that we all group hug and sing Kumbaya together then, hippie-boy.

Sorry. Could not resist.

[H2O Man]

24. Darn you!

It's funny: having had long hair (I blame The Beatles!), a number of people have assumed that I was/am a "hippie." Some of my best friends are hippies. I wouldn't mind if a hippie moved into my neighborhood. I'd even be okay with one of my daughters marrying a hippie.

But I've never been a hippie. I was a Yippie! as a youth, though. And I loved John's song, "Revolution."

[byronius]

26. I'm of the following generation that read all the books and went to the Kerouac Conference.

The Evergreen Review, and all of Abbie Hoffman's books, for instance. Little bit of hippie/yippie worship going on in my circles, to be sure.

That being said, I truly appreciate your post. Always with the Wisdom, Sir O'Waterman.

[H2O Man]

33. Great resources.

Too many people fail to appreciate how brilliant Abbie was; they get caught up in his delivery, which was outrageous humor. Damn, he was good!

I was fortunate to be able to spend some time with him in the 1980s. He was one of a kind.

[byronius]

38. My favorite clip of him:

And this:

[H2O Man]

40. Outstanding!

His book "Soon to be a Major Motion Picture" is classic.

[antigop]

13. There's going to be a primary? Seriously? I thought there was going to be a coronation.

Sorry...couldn't resist.

[H2O Man]

41. Well done!

I'm glad you didn't resist .....humor is a good thing.

[V0ltairesGh0st]

25. I Hear what you are saying...

...and i agree, however; "History is written by the winners" no matter who they are, or what techniques they use to win. Open minds, and meaningful debate, and sincere communication of our hopes are usually only used against us divisively when the other side takes a peek at what we are saying, and what we would like to see happen in the arena of political discourse and, progressive policy. DU is a sincere hub of progressive thinking... and i love most of what i see here, but all to often our optimistic hopes for a better country are used and twisted against us. Progressives in general have that "nice kid on the playground" image who shares, and lets others take turns before them, and more often than not it gets them taken advantage of by greedy, selfish people of the opposite persuasion. Not only are they rude and paranoid we might actually get our turn, they claim we stole their ideas or we cut in line. It's time to be more like the Rude Pundit and start calling BS by it's name and standing up for what is ours, because if we don't there will always be someone out there who is willing to take it from us and laugh, and then kick us in the face while we're down. Time to start fighting fire with fire, because the political arena we are in is a battleground, and it's bloody fight to the finish.

[TDale313]

28. Well put.

I know I've been guilty of letting the claws come out a bit occasionally over the last couple months. Retracting. This is going to a passionate primary, for sure, but the personal attacks won't get us anywhere.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. My political message board fantasy is/are ...

a debate(s) where candidates (and supporters) argue the merits of their position rather than the horrors of the opposing position/candidate ... except in the case of any position held by a republican.

[Rex]

30. Geez...

Okay okay I get it! "STOP being such an asshole Rex!" You could have just PMd me, you didn't have to make an entire thread about it!

I, Rex, will refrain from being an asshole all the time on DU.

OKAY FINE!

I, Rex, will refrain from being an asshole all the time in RL and on DU.

HAPPY NOW!?!

[Martin Eden]

32. If we can't have rational, civil discourse among ourselves ...

... then we have added to the obstacles that must be overcome if real progress is ever to become a reality.

DE Rec

[marlakay]

37. I agree and think that many of us will vote for Hillary

Even if we would rather it be someone else.

I have just about given up on the whole process, so few candidates see beyond money, power and greed.

My husband has this fantasy that women will rise up with more power if Hillary wins, but I am not so sure.

I just wish we could all find the spirit we had the day after John Kerry lost when thousands of us gave our real names and dedicated ourselves to not give up.

[Ramses]

39. While your post makes perfect and sense and is thoughtfully laid out

you are dealing with sociopaths who value money over human lives. Who desire more wars and more people in prison, and more Americans in poverty. We are not debating about our favorite sports team or a chili recipe. We are debating with truly mentally violent people who care about money and power above all else.