Breath of Dissent

[H2O Man]

“No American, young or old, must ever be denied the right to dissent. No minority must be muzzled. Opinion and protest are the life breath of democracy -- even when it blows heavy.

“But I urge you never to dissent merely because someone asks you to, or because someone else does. Please know why you protest. Know what it is you dissent from. And always try, when you do disagree, to offer a choice to the course that you disapprove. For dissent and protest must be the recourse of men who, in challenging the existing order, reason their way to a better order.”
-- President Lyndon B. Johnson; June 7, 1966.


This is my favorite LBJ quote. What a curious specimen of humanity he was! A capable legislator. A passionate advocate for Civil Rights. Yet his policies on Vietnam continue to eclipse the many positives of his presidency. History correctly identifies him as the nation’s “leader” in 1968, the most revolutionary year of the century.

In my mind, I tend to associate this quote with an event that took place ten days later, late at night in a Paterson, NJ, bar. My good friend Rubin ”Hurricane” Carter would be wrongly convicted of that vicious triple-murder, and spend the next twenty years behind bars.

I remember Rubin telling me that “minds that have very little to compare, have very little understanding.” And, for whatever reason, I think of that quote -- along with the LBJ quote -- when I read some of the on-going arguments about President Obama on DU:GD. But that’s just me.

Peace,
H2O Man

[edgineered]

1. A personal aside,

Many times I thought of Hurricane Carters persecution, (prosecution), while racing or spectating at the training camp he used outside of Tannersville. It was always unsettling.

[H2O Man]

4. The last three days,

my son has come here to use the gym. When he was young, he used to get frustrated because he thought I wasn't teaching him fast enough. Now he appreciates the fact that the better he gets, the more I can teach him.

We worked on a few tricks of the trade that the Hurricane taught me. My boy has the most punching-power of any heavyweight I've seen from this region in my 50+ years with the sport. But you have to be able to deliver those punches for power to count! And Rubin knew how to deliver.

[edgineered]

7. So we had been neighbors with similar interests at one time.

It would be a pleasure to keep up on your sons progress. Not sure if you want to publicize personal info or venues, so PM me AND keep me posted! thanks

[H2O Man]

9. sure.

We're trying to line up some fights for late summer and early fall. If we get them, we'll likely have him turn pro next year.

I've posted information on this on the DU sports forum. For the past couple years, Marvis Frazier has assisted me in training my boy. Both Micky Ward and the late Manny Steward have made generous offers for guiding him in the pro ranks.

(I'm sure that you know how fickle things can be in the amateurs. A few years back, we had matched him with a kid from the Albany area -- the kid had won the novice division Golden Gloves, and was a cocky fellow. He watched my boy warming up, hitting the mitts in the dressing room, and apparently didn't like what he saw: he got dressed and left the arena without saying a word to anyone. My son was disappointed, though I thought it was a good sign!)

[edgineered]

13. Damn! Let your son know

that when he's warming up before a fight is a damn good time to get hit by the speedbag, it won't send chills down their canvas backs.

[H2O Man]

82. I remember that at

the next card, that same kid showed up early. My son and I were talking with the promoter, Bob Miller (best cut man in the game today; promoted most of Tyson's early bouts). Bob said," You! Just get outta here!" The kid started making up some lie. Bob said he didn't want to hear it, or see the kid again.

[panader0]

19. Very cool.

Please keep us posted on his career.

[H2O Man]

83. Thanks.

My boy's power and delivery reminds me of a young Sonny Liston. And it's about as hard to get any sparring for him, as it was for Liston.

[DocwillCuNow]

2. One of my favotite Denzel Washington films, The Hurricane

course, for those who are unfamiliar:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0141918/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

>>He served as a paratrooper and was stationed in Europe, where he started fighting for the Army Boxing Team. However, when it was learned he had escaped from jail, he was returned there to serve an additional nine months. After being released he admitted to becoming a heavy drinker and street brawler. He was sentenced to six years in prison for beating a man so badly that the man was sent to the hospital. After serving 4-1/2 years, Carter was released and introduced to Carmine Tedeschis by his uncle. Tedeschis, who had a local construction business, gave Carter a job and began managing him to a professional career.

Carter turned pro in 1961, and by June 1963 after only 19 fights (16-3), was rated 10th in the world. After scoring brutal first-round knockouts over Florentino Fernandez and World Welterweight Champion Emile Griffith, Carter received his title fight. He lost a 15-round nod to champion Joey Giardello. Carter's career was in and out over the next year before he and another man were arrested for a triple murder and convicted in an ensuing trial. After serving almost 30 years in prison he was finally released when a judge ruled that he had been wrongly convicted. He wrote a best-selling novel entitled the 16th Round.<<

[H2O Man]

5. Denzel also played

two other men that Rubin was friends with -- Steven Biko and Malcolm X.

The article that you quote from has several errors. The crime he was convicted on was robbing a lady's pocketbook; the Fernandez bout was in December of 1962, Griffith was December of '63, and Pal Joey was December of '64 and not as a result of the other two; and The 16th Round wasn't a "novel."

[DocwillCuNow]

49. But as they say, if it's on the internets.... IMDB no less, they should know better. n/t

[H2O Man]

50. There is a lot

of misinformation and disinformation about Rubin and the case out there. A number of people are very invested in attacking him. This includes one who was 100% positive that Carter would viciously attack the unsuspecting public, back when the federal court ordered his release.

It's funny: while he was writing the second book, we discussed putting some of the police and politicians' documents in it. (The actual identity of the gunmen was known, for example.) But the publisher's lawyer recommended against it. Lies are more available, sad to say, than the truth.

[cali]

3. It's a great quote. Thank you for introducing it to me.

[H2O Man]

6. It was, of course,

some of the responses to one of your OPs that had me shaking my head yesterday. (smile)

[Bluenorthwest]

8. HBO will be making a flim of 'All The Way' a play about LBJ's first year in office

written by Robert Schenkkan with Bryan Cranston as Johnson. The play originated at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival which commissioned the work. It just won best play and actor Tony Awards as well as Drama Desk awards. It is very good theater and researched to the hilt.
The second play in the LBJ cycle 'The Great Society' is just about to open at OSF and I will be seeing it, as they say there, anon.
I'm very proud of OSF for adding these plays to the body of work that is the American theater and also very happy that there will be an HBO adaptation to bring the first play to a wider audience.
https://www.osfashland.org/productions/plays/all-the-way.aspx

[H2O Man]

10. Outstanding!

I find Johnson to be one of the most fascinating characters in American history. Obviously a flawed man, and responsible for much of the horrors of Vietnam. I've enjoyed corresponding with Robert Caro over the past decade, as his series of books on LBJ are among the very best political histories available.

Thanks for sharing this information with me. Much appreciated. And I'm really looking forward to seeing it on HBO.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. You will love it. The play is excellent.

It is a part of a major play commissioning project at OSF, plays about American history. I'm delighted HBO has the good taste to do it.

[H2O Man]

15. Later today,

I'll call my normal brother, who lives out that way. He will be very interested in this, too.

You've made my day!

[conservaphobe]

11. Dissent, merely for the sake of dissent is where some go wrong.

Like those on the far right who think they're entitled to their own facts.

[cali]

17. and those purportedly on the left who brook no criticism of the President

go wrong out of partisanship and also make up their own facts. And how the hell do you know if someone is dissenting merely for the sake of doing so? Did they tell you that's why?

[conservaphobe]

22. I don't agree with the President 100% of the time.

I oppose continuing the Drug War.

I think the NSA should be reigned in.

I think teacher's unions should be more respected at the Dept. of Education.

And too many corporations have gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist by the Dept. of Justice.

Mere policy differences that I don't feel the need to shout from the rooftops every day and pretend the world is ending because I haven't gotten everything I want yet. I will voice my opinions on those policies without bringing the President into it at all.

[lunatica]

23. Yes...

[BillZBubb]

51. You won't bring the president into it at all?

Even if he is the one blocking a policy you feel is crucial? Even if he is speaking against something you favor?

I could never censor myself like that. You lose credibility when you don't hold a president you support to a high standard.

[H2O Man]

60. Right.

I clearly remember Barack Obama, as president-elect and new president, saying that he hoped the public would keep his feet to the fire.

In my opinion, if one fails to speak the truth as they know it, they not only fail themselves -- but they fail all of humanity.

[H2O Man]

26. One out of every ten

lawyers graduated in the bottom 10% of their class ..... every group of people has some who are more gifted and insightful, some in the middle, and some less gifted and insightful.

[spanone]

12. k&r...

[H2O Man]

27. Thanks!

[malaise]

16. Opinion and protest are the life breath of democracy -- even when it blows heavy

This and I will allow no one to deny me my right to dissent.

Cogito ergo sum.

You'd never know that on DU these days.

Thanks for this relevant OP Waterman

[H2O Man]

28. Right.

It strikes me as curious when some people resent other people for holding different opinions. We witness a few folks getting mighty angry on this forum lately, because others view a politician or event differently than they do.

If human beings all saw everything the same, and shared identical strengths and weaknesses, humanity would decay rapidly. There are too many OP/threads here lately proving exactly that!

[Mojorabbit]

58. + a gazillion. nt

[malaise]

68. +1,000

Sadly decay is all around us. Hopefully renewal is around the corner, but there is no renewal without activism and tolerance.

[sabrina 1]

62. The hardest place these days to register dissent about important issues, is right here on DU.

Which makes it all the more important to do so. When there is even a sign of repression of dissent, it is a sign of a dangerous threat to democracy.

Thank YOU for always speaking out despite the growing attempts to restrict it.

[malaise]

69. Not sure this is the hardest place

but we have more than a few intolerant posters here these days.
Many folks here continue to stand up and be counted.

[sabrina 1]

77. True, a little hyperbole on my part.

[L0oniX]

18. You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, ...

...not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman

[H2O Man]

29. Abbie was a good man.

His book "Soon to be a Major Motion Picture" still holds up very well. It should be required reading for the younger people here, who are serious students of socio-political activism.

Thanks!

[L0oniX]

35. ***

Remember his "Steal This Book" book?

[H2O Man]

37. sure do!

It's on a book shelf in the next room, along with "Revolution for the Hell of It."

I was lucky enough to get to spend some time with Abbie.

[L0oniX]

38. Awesume!

[H2O Man]

42. In my opinion,

the view that Abbie was primarily a clown is highly inaccurate. Even in the days of political theater in the streets, he was extremely intelligent and equally serious in his goals. He just did it with flare. I think that too often, his contributions are unappreciated, even marginalized. The guy was a political genius.

[Enthusiast]

85. Great quote!

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. +1 ...

I remember Rubin telling me that “minds that have very little to compare, have very little understanding.” And, for whatever reason, I think of that quote -- along with the LBJ quote -- when I read some of the on-going arguments about President Obama on DU:GD.

It's beyond frustrating to read on a daily basis, "The 1%!", with nothing to offer, but "The 1%!!!!!!!!!!"

[H2O Man]

30. Thanks!

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. I should have added ...

"The 1%!", with nothing to offer, but "The 1%!!!!!!!!!!" ... as if screaming is an answer or a solution.

[Armstead]

43. People offer plenty of alternatives to policies thst favor the rich and powerful

Ya just have go listen and pay attention, and not dismiss them out of hand.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. Alternatives ...

without any idea of how to make them happen in the real world.

[Armstead]

48. That's too sweeping a statement

Yes there are people who propose thongs in brosd terms, and there are people who propose specific ideas.

Nothing wrong with setting goals. One reason we have experts in the world is to connect dots and fill in and achieve in their area of expertise,

It's like deciding that curing cancwr is a priority. That process starts with identifying it as a goal, and then building concensus. THen it requires finding and allocating the resources...And ultimately it requires all of the medical and scientific experts to make it a reality.

Many different areas of expertise are ultimately required. BUT the first and most important step is setting the goal and building concensus.

Right now we still have to build a concensus that we are going to STOP making it a priority to further enrich the wealthy and corporations with piss-down policies and START actually changing the values and political culture that perpetuates the ongoing upward tranferring wealth and power....With a is political will to do so, there also has to be discussion about what to specifically achieve social and economic process.

Its a complicated process but everyone has something to contribute regardless of their own strengths and limitations.

[1StrongBlackMan]

57. I completely agree ...

BUT the first and most important step is setting the goal and building concensus.

Right now we still have to build a concensus that we are going to STOP making it a priority to further enrich the wealthy and corporations with piss-down policies and START actually changing the values and political culture that perpetuates the ongoing upward tranferring wealth and power

This is the process for social/political change; but it is NOT an alternative to the policies, nor does it describe how these specific ideas will/would be implemented in this dysfunction that passes for congress.

[Armstead]

65. well no one can answer all of that on a single post on a message board.

But on any number of issues, any number of people here and elsewhere do go beyond complaints and diagnosis and offer real ideas and possible solutions (ranging from complex to simple).

Whether or not one agrees with any particular idea, it can;t be said they are not offered.

Many of them are what can be done, and a lot are what shouldn't be done (like not selling us out by kiling off Net NMeitrality and then handing the Internet all over to Comcast with no controls over their behavior, for one example).

And yes, some do require dealing with political realities but more important they involve working to CHANGE political realities. That extends beyond the obvious "kicking the GOP Bums out" It also means getting the Democratic Party to become more consistent as a party of liberal/progressive good government and meaningful reform (instead of peddling a kinder and gentler version of the same Corporate Conservative philosophy as the GOP).

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Mostly what I see is ...

"Universal Healthcare would solve the financing of healthcare" ... while I agree, HOW is/was that to be reality, given the current political climate?

I agree that we need to change the political climate; but if nothing else, the Civil Rights Movement (and every successful political/social movement) has taught us is ... that takes time.

[Armstead]

81. These problems have been getting worse for 40 years

I'm not going to get nostalgic but I have seen a steady deterioration in many spheres since the 1970s.

Reversing that decline is not only a matter of seeking broad unrealistic solutions. First step is It's a matter of stopping stupid things that are totally avoidable disasters. That in itself is a step towards solutions.

Yes we can blame Republicans and the usual right wing suspects. BUt what is really angering to so many people is that the Democratic Party has either ignored or actively colluded with this process. And continues to collude with it through a combination of actual or philosophical corruption, or defeatism.

Often the solutions are not rocket science. Step one is trying to get the Democratic leaders who claim to represent us to stop that. Stiop going along with GOP Corporate conservative bullshit. Instead, get back to basic liberal progressive goals and policies.

Health care? Start with small steps that actually lead in the direction of public insurance. Don't force a Heritage Foundation Romney plan that leads us in the opposite direction.

There are many people who have specific ideas, but they were shit out of the table fromthe beginning of that process BY DEMOCRATS.

So yes, people complain. But Jeeze Louise, when their ideas --no matter how pragmatic and modest -- get immediately dismissed if they don't fall under the approval of the Conventional Wisdom of Corporate Conservatism.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

21. "And always try, when you do disagree,

to offer a choice to the course that you disapprove."

Get Out Now.

And in March of 1968 he threw in the towel.

[H2O Man]

31. He was a strange man.

I remember that Arthur Schelsinger, Jr., and others from JFK's administration told RFK that, if he entered the '68 contest, LBJ would quit. He was, in many ways, a cowardly man. I suppose that most bullies are.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

34. Yep. Wasn't it McCarthy who stepped up and drove him out?

[H2O Man]

39. Gene McCarthy was first.

Robert was going back-and-forth in late '67. McCarthy stepped up to the plate. He shocked the "experts" in the NH primary -- although LBJ did get some more votes, McCarthy won more delegates.

RFK came in to the contest in early '68; his move was enough to push LBJ over the edge.

It's interesting: among his closest associates, Johnson admitted that he believed the party would "draft" him at the summer's convention. He clung to that rather delusional belief, even after RFK was killed.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

40. McCarthy entered Nov 30, 1967.

Forgotten hero (and fine poet).

March 12, New Hamp primary.
March 16, RFK enters.

[H2O Man]

41. Some of the personal dynamics

from that campaign changed the party. McCarthy was a longtime supporter of Stevenson; he had advocated for him at the 1960 Democratic Convention (something Robert neither forgot nor forgave). Schlesinger was a Stevenson supporter, too. It was interesting that he switched to JFK in '59. For several years, he didn't care much for Robert, who was rigid and self-righteous as a young man. But Schlesinger recognized that Robert, like Jack, was very capable.

After Dallas, Schlesinger stuck with Robert. He still had a great deal of respect for Gene, but felt McCarthy was perhaps better suited to be a university professor than a Senator. (He was good at both.)

Gene had some petty jealousies regarding JFK; he really believed he, rather than Kennedy, was the most authentic Irish Catholic leader in America. Yet, he was far more above board, when communicating (indirectly) with RFK about the need for someone to challenge LBJ as '68 approached. If Robert would run, he'd stand down. And he believed that Robert had signaled that if Gene ran, he wouldn't.

Between Tet and New Hampshire, Robert became convinced of two things: the nation could not survive another term of LBJ, and that McCarthy could never win the presidency. (In fact, the truculent Senator acted uninterested in his own campaign, and made it clear that he believed he was doing his supporters a huge favor by running. He was given to rather severe mood swings.)

When Teddy sent messages suggesting Robert would likely enter the contest, McCarthy was decent enough to try to set up a coordinated front. But he appeared to view Robert as, at best, his VP. He also made some crude comments about how the contest would be like RFK opposing JFK (Gene as Jack). That rift never healed before June; their supporters would not unite between June and the Convention. It was a split that went on to damage HHH in the general election, and McGovern in '72, for that matter.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

47. One thing a study of our heroes will surely reveal:

all have feet of clay.

[H2O Man]

59. Right.

When I was a kid, I had heroes -- Muhammad Ali and John Lennon. Both of them were good men, who accomplished great things. However, by my late teens, I learned that they, too, were sad and weakly human, just as we all are.

There's an old Irish saying I like: A saint is but a dead sinner, who's life has been revised and edited.

[lunatica]

24. Thanks again for another food for thought post.

[H2O Man]

33. Thank you!

I'd like to think that my contributions here have some value. If they add to the thinking that some of our community's best thinkers -- definitely including you -- discuss here. I have done my part.

[rickyhall]

25. I've always thought Viet Nam War was a trade-off.

LBJ traded that war for all the good he did, but cost him the Presidency and a chunk of his life, IMHO.

[H2O Man]

36. Right.

I think that a re-evaluation of LBJ's presidency has started in the past year or so. His decline in '66 to '68 was tragic, though not nearly as tragic as any individual American being killed or wounded in that terrible war. That Vietnam legacy keeps LBJ from being remembered as one of the three greatest presidents.

It was, of course, complex. Too often, people are either unaware or have forgotten that LBJ's becoming entrenched in that war was a process that began while he was VP. Johnson, who strongly (but silently) disagreed with JFK's policies in Vietnam, was getting military intelligence briefings that were not presented to President Kennedy. In my opinion, that put his later hardships in a different context than what is more widely believed -- that LBJ had no real foreign policy experience when he was thrust into the presidency.

Yet, for all of that, there is his polar-opposite accomplishments. They do rank high in significance, despite the never-ending opposition that the Civil Rights movement and Great Society programs have faced.

[Armstead]

44. I wonder how history would be different without Vietnam

Domestically, LBJ was very progressive. BUT his whole Presidency was overshadowed by the war, which turned young people and the left against him, and discredited his overall leadership -- which helped turn the tide to conservatism. and brought the GOP to dominance.

If it had not been for Vietnam, he'd probably be a liberal icon today like FDR...And his accomplishments on civil rights, the war on poverty and healthcare would have been his legacy. And the nation might have pushed forward the progress on those things afterwards.

A tragedy.

[H2O Man]

45. Without Vietnam,

I'd think that he would have definitely ranked in the top tier, with 3 or 4 others.

[BillZBubb]

52. A tragedy, I agree. Top 10 president without Vietnam.

Like a Greek tragedy, with the war being Johnson's fatal flaw.

[Armstead]

53. And alas, it affected the whole country

[H2O Man]

56. Exactly right.

The war took all the funding that LBJ had wanted to invest in the Great Society. And, of course, killed or seriously injured so many people who could have made important contributions to our society. (And, what did they really sacrifice for? That war was so wrong.)

[hfojvt]

54. too bad it doesn't start with "two"

“minds that have very little to compare, have very little understanding.”

otherwise it mind sound like you are talking about ONE mind or ONE side that "has very little understanding".

My roommate once said "Unless you agree on the basics, there is no dialogue."

And quite often here we argue about (or argue past each other because of it) different definitions.

What is rich?
What is progressive?
What is Constitutional?
What is possible?
What is desirable?

[H2O Man]

55. It's specific

to individuals, and has nothing to do with "sides."

I do agree with the second half of your post. Valid points, very important. Thanks!

[H2O Man]

61. I like this thread.

Not because I wrote the OP, which isn't particularly important in the grand scheme of things. But because there are such thoughtful responses, and conversations resulting from those initial responses. It reinforces my belief that, despite a lot of the nonsense that goes on here on a daily basis, the forum has a lot of good and decent participants, who are here for good reasons.

Thank you all.

[hootinholler]

63. I will always wonder if Vietnam was the price of the Great Society

Johnson does appear to be an enigmatic dichotomy.

Thanks for some great reminders, my friend.

-Hoot

[H2O Man]

74. Definitely.

Can you imagine if LBJ didn't have that war, and instead could have focused most of his (almost unlimited) energies on The Great Society?

My father used to tell me that, but for Vietnam, President Johnson would have eclipsed FDR as the greatest president of the 20th century. I think that he was correct.

[jen63]

64. Damn!

Thanks for a great OP AND history lesson.

[H2O Man]

73. Thank you!

Much appreciated!

[Uncle Joe]

67. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

72. Thank you.

I know that many of our community really appreciate your being a Voice of Reason here!

[Uncle Joe]

75. That means a lot to me coming from you, H2O Man as I've always

considered you to be a prime example of a Voice of Reason!

Peace to you.

[H2O Man]

76. Oh, thanks!

I know for sure that many people here have a very high opinion of you, based on your contributions. I'm definitely one of them!

[Blue_Tires]

70. You knew Rubin ”Hurricane” Carter?

[H2O Man]

71. Yes.

Rubin and I were close friends for over 40 years. I worked on his defense in the '70s and '80s. We remained close after his release.

I've got a great collection of letters etc from Rube. For example, when he wrote The 16th Round, he frequently talked on a cassette tape, then wrote it down. I have a pile of those tapes; tons of court papers; unpublished photos; and the like.

If you've seen the movie, when he was in what we called his Buddha phase, I was one of two people he corresponded with. Some of those letters range from 12 to 50 pages. They are intense.

Rubin knew and loved my four children. He was an amazing human being. He'd call here at the oddest hours .... I remember a 3 am call, when he was in the Middle East with Mandela, attempting to deal with the severe damage that Bush & Cheney were doing .....

He was my best friend. I miss that man.

[sabrina 1]

78. Fascinating and I can imagine how much you miss him.

Thanks for the OP H20 Man.

[H2O Man]

79. Thank you, my Wonderful Friend.

Sometimes, when we would be talking late at night (on the telephone), there would be a pause, and then Rubin would say, "Pat! We did it!" I can hear my friend's powerful voice in my mind, as I write this.

We had both become old men, and that resulted in one of the most enjoyable phases of our long friendship. We both loved gardening, and we shared a passion for growing flowers. Roses have long been my favorite -- until recently, as my health has declined, I grew around 2,000 blooms per year .....all types and colors of roses. (I used to post photos of them here on DU!)

Rubin loved colorful flowers, but he never bothered learning their various names. That led to some hilarious conversations ..... he'd be describing different ones to me, and invite me to visit so that we could "talk flowers." He recognized every single flowering plant as a true miracle of the power of Earth's life-force. It was a delight to listen to him go on and on about his favorite flowers.

And, of course, we discussed various cases of gross injustice, in the United States and other nations. He dedicated his very being into the struggle for Justice for All. And I loved listening to him tell stories about men like Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Malcolm X, and Dr. King.

He was a unique human being.

[sabrina 1]

80. 'He recognized every single flowering plant as a true miracle of the power of the Earth's

live-force'. So true, my mom had such a green thumb and she too loved roses. I'm sorry that your health is preventing you from some of the things you enjoy. I hope you stay well and are taking care of yourself.

As for his not learning their names, as Shakespeare said 'what's in a name, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'. Sometimes we get too hung up on labels/names, maybe both he and Shakespeare were looking more at the essence of things than most of us do.

You have been most fortunate to have know him as he does sound like a remarkable man. And having been the victim of such gross injustice, I can understand his passion for justice. Listening to stories of those four men from someone who knew them, which I presume he did, is an incredible gift from him to you, and your children.

Your posts are like an oasis in a desert here.

[Enthusiast]

84. Kicked and recommended!