We Can Work It Out

[H2O Man]

"Life is very short
And there's no time
For fussing and fighting, my friend
"I have always thought
That it's a crime
So I will ask you once again
"Try to see it my way
Only time will tell
If I am right or I am wrong"
The Beatles; We Can Work It Out

One area where much of the most intense acrimony between men and women is found is in the family court system. Hence, I have been a bit surprised that this specific topic hasn't been brought up much, if at all, in the DU:GD threads on sexism et al. Indeed, the hostility between men and women ripens within the legal system.

I reside in New York State. For many years, there was nothing approaching a level playing field in cases involving custody and support here. The laws began to change under the leadership of Nelson Rockefeller in the early 1970s. The governorr actually began advocating for such changes, when his top body guard was separating from his wife. I'm familiar with that, because the body guard was my uncle.

In the late 1980s, my first wife sought a divorce. We had two wee-little boys, ages six and three. At first, we had equal, shared custody. She got the house, and the two more expensive of our three vehicles. More, I had to pay her support -- even though I had the boys as much as her, and she had a larger income.

Over a several year period, she brought me to court twelve times. I never filed any case against her. In time, both boys came to live with me full-time. Their mother, on her own and without my asking, had my support ended, and began to pay me what she believed was a fair amount. I think that this went a long way in reducing the hostility between us.

As I write this, I remember something that struck me as odd: the boys' mother called me from her family's farm on the morning her mother died. I had a good relationship with my former mother-in-law; she would at times drop in my home to visit her grandsons and I. Even though my "ex" had re-married, I was the first person she called that morning.( I wouldn't go so far as to call us close friends these days, but we had Thanksgiving together at our sons' house in 2013.)

In my first few years as a single parent, a couple of friends and I organized an informal "support group" for men experiencing separation and divorce. Our focus was two-fold: fathers' rights, and fathers' responsibilities. I kept and handful of journals then, and have been flipping through some of them recently. We had about thirty guys who participated. Most were in their late 20s to early 50s. All of them were working class.

There was a wide spectrum for such a small group, in the context of the opinions on rights and responsibilities. There were guys who really believed that their lives were over, that they simply could not live without their ex-girlfriend or wife. And there were guys who were seething with hatred, intent upon causing as much pain and suffering as they possibly could. There were men who would do anything and everything to enrich their children's lives. And there were males who seemed emotionally unattached to their own children
.
One fellow, who I had worked with many years before, simply walked out of his children's lives. Even though he lived rather close to them, he simply stopped seeing them at all. Not surprisingly, he frequently "fell behind" on paying support. As it turned out, his father had walked out on his family when he was a youngster. But I have seen other males do that same thing, even though they were raised in intact, seemingly normal, middle-class families.

Likewise, I know a lot of women who have been divorced, who make up an equally wide spectrum as parents. Some are really good, and some are inadequate in character.

It seems to me, both as a human being and as a father of two sons and two daughters, that our society's views and behaviors -- in terms of the opposite sex -- are largely rooted in our experiences in families. Our family of origin, of course, plays a primary role here. Did that family assign rigid roles based upon sex? Was violence used to "settle" disagreements? Were men and women respected?

Considering that a significant percentage of marriages will end in divorce, family court will remain an arena for warfare between the sexes. I suspect that this general arena could provide us with an area where we could -- as the DU Community -- engage in meaningful discussions on topics including parents' rights and responsibilities. I expect that, if such a discussion caught on, there would be a few people that might express bitterness more than insight. But that is okay .....in fact, it can be a good thing, so long as people approach this with open minds.

What do you think? Is it a valid topic for rationale discussion? Thank you for your consideration.

Peace,
H2O Man

[hootinholler]

1. I think you are about to be hit with the MRA stick

I have similar experiences to yours, except the support ended when my youngest turned 18.

I also got in a lot of trouble here for suggesting that one's background affect one's views in this regard.

I wish you luck in having these discussions in a rational manner.

[one_voice]

2. When my first husband...

and I divorced we stayed very civil. I'd even go so far as to say we were friends.

We had a daughter and we worked everything out between us. We never brought a court into it. We did what we thought was best for her and it worked out great.

Sure we had some disagreements, but in the end we worked it out.

When he died I was the first person his wife called. She always called me her ex-wife because we got along so well.


Both my brothers with children are divorced. One has a great relationship with his ex and they work everything out together.

My other brother's ex is nasty. When his son died she did everything she could to keep him from being involved in the arrangements. She didn't have to act so mean he wouldn't have argued with her. A lawsuit was filed and she tried to have him completely excluded from everything. The judge wouldn't even entertain what she wanted. They had joint custody when he died. She's one of the nastiest people I've ever met.

I think it depends on the couple and their priorities.

[Samantha]

3. I think perhaps every divorce is personal

In general, this I think would be a very difficult issue to categorize.

I was married for 24 years, and generally, the two of us were very happy. Then my former husband experienced 3 events in the top-ten stressors within a relatively short period of time. When he turned 40 shortly thereafter, he told me he was leaving and asked me to let him be happy. He said he might have 20 good years left, and he wanted to do all of the things he had dreamed of doing all of his life before he married. I was devastated. Four days later after giving the matter a lot of thought, I told him okay. A decade later after doing a lot of reading, I realized he had experienced the classic mid-life crisis men often have at 40.

That was some time ago. We have a daughter and two grandchildren; I live near them, he does not. We talk from time to time, and recently just before he hung up he said "I love you." It amazed me. I thought the words coming out of the telephone were from the Twilight Zone.

A neighbor of mine told me had her husband done that to her, she would have gotten out her shotgun and followed him down the road in her truck to shoot him in the as*. I tried to conjure up a picture of my doing that and just couldn't manage it. I didn't have a truck....

So my daughter was 17 when he left, he told me to tell her there was no money for college, and off he went. I busted my posterior for the next decade to put her through a music conservatory (5 years with each one costing the same as an ivy-league law school) and then helped her with her master's degree (2 years at UMD). It took me ten years to pay off all the loans I took out, and she had scholarship money and student loans as well.

Today, my ex-husband lives in Montana and loves the state but is a lonely person. My daughter teaches at a private school in DC and loves her job. She teaches music and additionally gives private lessons. After working for decades in the legal community, I walked away 5 years ago and started working for myself. So everyone ended up either okay or fine.

I do believe there can be a life of quality after a devastating divorce if the participants allow themselves to find the way. But that is not easy to do sometimes when experiencing a painful breakup.

It is a pleasure to participate in your thread. I wish I had something more profound to contribute. I do think, however, it is really important to let go of the old hurts and pain to try to move to a place where contentment can be found. Happiness will follow.

Sam

[LittleBlue]

6. You're a good writer

Thanks for sharing, that was interesting.

[el_bryanto]

4. I wonder if personal experience can be disentangled enough

to have a discussion. I worked for the clerk of court in a county here - the courthouse had 2 family judges and by happenstance i happened to usually go to one of them. And I had people swear up and down that this judge was 1) completely on the male's side, would never listen or give heed to the females and, alternatively, 2) was completely on the female's side, and would never listen or give heed to the males.

I was pretty young so can't really trust my judgement (particularly second hand judgement) but I do recall that both sides were convinced and seemingly sincere.

Bryant

[rrneck]

5. Well, you got me.

I'm not smart enough to posit a solution. But it's certainly worthy of discussion. Thanks for the OP.

[ms liberty]

7. K&R...

And bookmarking for later.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. My first husband and I married and divorced 3 times. We have remained in contact.

We don't hate one another, and he visits me.

That said, we never had kids. I never wanted any. Kids were just not something I longed for. I'd rather visit with kids for a while (as in my nephews and nieces) then be able to leave them behind as I go home.

I've noticed something about marriage, divorce and relationships between people, and it has to do with kids.

A wise rabbi by the name of Noah Weinberg said about children, "It's not an accident that a parent's greatest pleasure is also the source of his or her greatest pain." Children bring great pride and pleasure. They can be funny, make you laugh, people feel connected and devoted to them them because, well, they are connected to them biologically, and kids are the reflection of their parents biologically and in many other ways.

However, I think kids bring pain to a relationship as well. They add tremendous stressors to a marriage. Suddenly, you can't enjoy one another the way you used to, there are financial burdens, time burdens, little free time, a third person always there to disturb everything from sex to a peaceful night watching a movie, and seldom can you even just get in bed to just hug because you are simply exhausted and the only thing appealing is some sleep. The child is there with needs, wants, endless interruptions, and life ceases to belong to the couple. The child is now the boss of that life. Slowly, it is as if both partners were having extramarital relationships because there grows a rift, and not all couples can survive that. The interruption of the relationship often causes the relationship to change, and not often for the better. Then, when divorced, the existence of a child, with his/her economic burdens, and the tug-of-war that ensues, brings pain as well.

So I say that while kids are a delight, they are a nightmare to a couple hoping to maintain a romantic, loving, sexy relationship going forever.

[Beringia]

9. A couple of thoughts

I never had to go through a custody battle or divorce. I did live with someone for about 7 years. I had a fear of marriage for some reason, that none of my 5 sisters had. When I did imagine having a child, it occurred to me, we were going to eventually split and he would try everything under the sun to get the custody of the child and would not be a nice person.

As far as my family experience, when my parents divorced, it was bad. My father had run the house. My mother was never present, though I have heard she did do some things early in the marriage, later on she was not involved with the kids. My father did everything. Of 9 children, there were 6 of still underage at the divorce. My mother got custody, though I don't know how that was worked out. He had a new wife, and I don't think she wanted to have us around. She recently mentioned to me that during family therapy, a therapist had suggested, one of the children go live with my father, and my mother said she decided not to, because she thought we should all remain together. I thought this was an outrageous statement, because of her general lack of care and concern for us, but have stopped debating with her, she has her own view of things and is in her 80s now.

So I don't know how family courts treat men versus women, but I think people often don't put the children first, maybe it is almost impossible for them to think that way? Bravo to you that you put your children first.

[ismnotwasm]

10. My husbands first wife left him with a baby and a toddler

He was on his own until I came along-- one of the many reasons I admired him. He sought support from a group that was designed for men, during a time when fathers has little support. He got paralegal assistance and such. ( of note there was a time in history when women had no parental rights, this is a fairly recent phenomena)

His ex-wife had a number of issues and when she decided to waltz back in his life with a court order-- the last thing she expected was someone like me in his life. He's a GOOD man. A kind man. A decent man. Possibly a bit naive at the time when it came to women like his ex-wife. All he knew is he wanted to protect his little girls from her. She tried to mess with him at first, ( I won't go into detail how, but it was bad) but we were married and stable by then.

He and I knowing the girls would always wonder about thier mother controlled her interactions, and for a few years, we bought she was doing well.

So.

What if, this good, kind decent man was all by himself trying to raise two girls? What would have happened to him? What kind of accusations would he have to endure?

None of the scenarios I can think of are pretty; to top if off, his ex- wife was mentally ill, ( borderline personality disorder) and around 10 years later, committed suicide.

It's a very valid discussion, but an emotional one, which doesn't lead to rationality. As a feminist, I focus on women's issues, as a wife and a mother I never forget what could have happened to my stepdaughters and my husband had she even got more visitation rights, much less custody

[FourScore]

11. My parents fought for civil rights in the early 60's in south GA.

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:02 AM - Edit history (2)

My Daddy was an attorney in a small, college town, and represented the town school board. It was 1963, and schools throughout the south, including my hometown, had been successfully ignoring the Brown vs Board of Education Supreme Court decision of 1954 which overturned the seperate but equal doctrine of the south. As the school board attorney, my father advised the school system to comply with law and begin the process of integrating their schools. He believed it was the moral and legal thing to do, and they should get on with it. All hell broke loose. My parents became national figures for next 3 years. During that time, there were death threats and scare tactics. The FBI was sent to guard our house and to protect us because the town sheriff surely wasn't gonna do it. Reporters came from all over the country, some lived with us for days at a time. During that time, my mother gave birth to their 5th child. One night, in the cover of darkness, the FBI smuggled my family out of town, and we fled to Atlanta. We left all our possessions behind. They were eventually packaged up for us, and arrived weeks later. I remember my mother sobbing over personal items that had been destroyed or lost in the process. My father found it hard to get work in Atlanta and became very depressed. The strain of it all became too much. I don't remember them arguing or yelling. The marriage just fell apart. They got divorced in 1966.

My mother got custody of all the children and went to work as a real estate agent. From her, I learned about the travails of being a single, working mother with 5 kids, ages ranging from a toddler to a teenager. She taught me about what women must endure in the working world. In 1968, she wanted to buy us a house, and although she was a successful real estate agent, she was unable to do so -- the banks would not make loans to single women without a man co-signing. In 1969, she still managed to buy her first house by assuming a VA loan. In the mid 1970's, she began investing in real estate, and did quite well for herself. She never remarried.

Not long after my parent's divorce, my father married a psychiatrist. She was my stepmother. They had a child, my father's 6th. They had to relocate to New Orleans for a few years, but we visited them over summer, and my Daddy would come to see us sometimes in Atlanta. I remember being confused by it all more than anything (and I missed my Daddy terribly!), but eventually, it became normal.

Each Christmas, we would all get together at my paternal Grandmother's house. My Daddy grew up in a huge family with 8 kids. All of my aunts and uncles and cousins were there, and we were as welcome as we had ever been. They continued to treat my Mama and all of us as family, and showed delight at seeing us. My Daddy and Mama were very cordial, and I watched my Mama and my Stepmother talk about children and being working mothers (in the late 1960's!)

Simply put: they were all amazing role models.

Unfortunately, my Daddy and my stepmama got divorced after 7 years of marriage, but she remained an important figure in my life. My father encouraged all of us to continue our relationship with her, and would call us kids each year to remind us of her birthday. He did this for many years. (She is 89 now, and just came to visit me last month here in NY with my brother and his family.) She never remarried.

About 15 years after his second divorce, my father got married again, and they had a child. His current wife is much younger than he is. I don't call her my stepmother because I already have one; besides, I was a grown woman when they married. They have been married for 27 years now and she is my very good friend. She used to be an editor for a major news magazine, and she is my favorite editor when I write. I love her very much, and she has been wonderful for my Daddy.

All of these women have been amazing role models in my life.

My husband threw a 50th birthday party for me a few years ago, and invited friends and family from all over the US. My Daddy, his wife, my stepmother and my Mama all came (along with all my siblings, except the youngest who was in college). My local friends had a chance to meet my crazy, wonderful, eclectic family. Some people at the party asked me if it was at all uncomfortable to have my Dad and all his wives together under one roof. I laughed. "No. Not at all. That's my family." I don't want to make it sound like it was always charming, because it certainly wasn't. They are, after all, human. But they rose above the drama, and they did it with dignity, and they did it for the children.

Oddly enough, despite the pain and confusion I experienced by my parent's divorce when I was little, I think in many ways, my life has been enriched by divorce.

Thank you for the thread and the opportunity to share my story, H2O Man.

[LWolf]

12. I think it's an important topic for rational discussion.

I'm interested in reading what others have to say. For now, I can only bring my observations to the table; and, yes, it often seems that people's ideas about gender are rooted in their experiences with families. For myself, I can say that those ideas also change as exposure to other families and ideas happen.

I'm a conflicted knot when it comes to the topic of parent's rights and responsibilities, and that topic deserves more thought and care than I can give on a work morning before I head off for the day, but I'll check in later with more.

[panader0]

13. I became a single father about 18 years ago.

The oldest (her son) was ten, then a daughter, four, and the twins (one boy one girl) were three.
When my wife told me she was leaving, I asked "What about the kids?" She said, "I don't want them, I only had them because you wanted them."
Things were very tough for a few years. But everything turned out fine. Oldest daughter was second in her class of nearly 500.
Oldest son has a great job, great wife, and made me a grandfather twice. Both daughters are in college on scholorships.
Youngest son works on the North Slope and is banking money.
The ex, their mom, was dumped by the guy she ran off with. She never remarried and lives alone.
I have never told the kids about her remark.

[FourScore]

14. Wow.

You did great, Dad!

[FourScore]

15. There are so many sad stories in this thread. n/t

[steve2470]

16. good thread and it seems productive so far

My son just turned 18, so legally my responsibilities are pretty much at an end. I pay child support until he leaves high school, but for some strange reason the state closed my case. I will continue to pay until he leaves high school, because I think that's the ethical thing to do.

This subject really depends on the two people involved. If both people are reasonably mentally healthy and love their child or children, things can go pretty well. If both people hate one another's guts, are not "well adjusted" and have enough time/energy/money for lawyers, it can be hell on earth for everyone involved. The other extreme, of course, is the man (or woman) simply vanishing and never paying any support or paying any visits.

My experience, despite my anxieties, has gone very well. My ex is a fundamentalist Christian and I'm a very very liberal Christian. I think we've both tried hard to bridge that gap and be fair and humane to each other. My son shows the fruit of that cooperation.

Too many times, people forget that the bottom line is THE CHILD (or children). Yes, you may hate your ex with a burning flame but you have to somehow cooperate. Difficult, yes, but it's doable. I don't envy judges in divorce-related cases. The worst of humanity comes to the fore in those cases, abetted by lawyers' greed and people's ease at lying and concealing material facts.