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H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:11 PM Jun 2013

Rachel Jeantel

Yesterday, in response to a couple of articles posted on DU:GD, I made some harsh remarks. Some people thought I was knocking Rachel Jeantel (I wasn’t); others thought I was being cranky (I was); and one person stated that I was jealous of another author’s writing skills (I wasn’t). I was in a foul mood yesterday. It happens. So, I apologize to any friends I offended.

I watched Rachel’s testimony. I thought that she did well. Thus, while I have sympathy for the loss of her friend -- and especially the terrible circumstances that connected her to the murder trial -- I found some of the things people said on TV, or wrote on the internet, to be condescending. Rachel struck me as a strong young lady, deserving of respect and understanding, but not to be viewed as a victim of the court proceedings.

I appreciate that courtrooms create stress. This is especially true at a time when certain trials take on a circus-like atmosphere in the national media. And I also understand, all too well, having friends and family members murdered. It may be that the combination of first-hand experience with courtrooms and funerals has impacted the manner in which I view both this trial, and Rachel.

The legal process provides us with a unique look at sociological issues in our culture. For example, taken as a whole, the legal system provides greater opportunities and protections for one sub-culture, the wealthy. Clearly, poor people make up the majority of those incarcerated in the prison-industrial complex. More, black people are more likely to be incarcerated for the exact same crime as are white folks. Yet only a fool believes that the poor and non-white are predisposed to criminal activities.

In the past, blacks were identified as a sub-culture in the United States; today, they are correctly viewed as a co-culture. Yet there is no one blanket “black culture.” Hence, when the host of a HLN program asked a black guest if “blacks view Rachel’s testimony differently than do whites?,” she thanked him for trusting her to speak for all black people. Safe to say, for example, that Clarence Thomas sees the world differently than Rachel Jeantel.

Rachel belongs to another sub-culture, one that was first recognized when “baby-boomers” became older teens and young adults: “youth.” Older forum members will recall when they were called a “counter-culture.” This illustrates an important point -- that the larger culture frequently reacts harshly to the differences in sub-cultures. This is especially true when the sub-culture takes pride in, and identifies itself with those differences. Again, older forum members will recall that the larger society sought “protection” from (re: to punish) those who wore bell-bottoms, colorful shirts, short skirts, and love beads. I still have some old “warnings” from right-wing, conservative christian leaders on the terrible threat posed by The Beatles: not just long haired pot-smokers, they, but Ringo’s drums beat out a subversive “jungle beat” (accurate quote) that made youth vulnerable to communism.

Luckily, youth has its own unique defense systems. Rachel illustrated my favorite of these very well. When an “authority figure” asks a young adult the same stupid question, over and over, the youth often displays her/his utter contempt for the questioner. I am convinced that this is one of the most sacred duties of youth in the larger society. And I say that as a father of four, each with an impressive skill set that allows them to make others fully aware of that contempt.

As a rule, witnesses should not argue with lawyers while on the stand. The attorney has unique advantages in that setting. The defense attorney who cross-examined Rachel is actually talented at his trade. Although his “knock-knock” attempt at humor was pathetic, he is good at coming across as a wise and thoughtful grandfatherly gentleman. But from what I saw, he was not entirely comfortable in questioning Rachel …..not because he was hesitant to try to expose weaknesses in her testimony, but because she was a worthy opponent. They were trading shots pretty well, in my opinion.

That’s why I have respect for this young lady in terms of her trial participation. I did not see her as the victim in that context. I felt proud of her, not sympathy.

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Rachel Jeantel (Original Post) H2O Man Jun 2013 OP
Makes sense! JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #1
Thank you! H2O Man Jun 2013 #10
Indeed. Well written, as usual, H2O. longship Jun 2013 #2
Thanks! H2O Man Jun 2013 #11
I was very impressed with Ms Jeantel and thought she was great csziggy Jun 2013 #3
Well said. H2O Man Jun 2013 #12
As far as your last sentence, "I felt proud of her, not sympathy.", Sheldon Cooper Jun 2013 #4
You are right. H2O Man Jun 2013 #13
I agree with you very much. Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #5
Right. H2O Man Jun 2013 #15
excellent post...one quibble noiretextatique Jun 2013 #6
He doesn't seem H2O Man Jun 2013 #16
I thought you weren't yourself yesterday :) Marrah_G Jun 2013 #7
Unfortunately, I suppose H2O Man Jun 2013 #17
It's okay, we all love you anyway Water guy Marrah_G Jun 2013 #21
Even when you are a 'cranky, snarling old fart', your OPs are one of the reasons sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #29
Amen. Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #8
Right. H2O Man Jun 2013 #18
I was impressed REP Jun 2013 #9
"quick wit" H2O Man Jun 2013 #19
I guess I find her testimony completely lacking in credibility. Vattel Jun 2013 #14
Really? Are_grits_groceries Jun 2013 #20
Did you hear the interview by the state prosecutor to which I referred? Vattel Jun 2013 #23
Yes Are_grits_groceries Jun 2013 #25
So the willingness to lie didn't bother you at all? Vattel Jun 2013 #28
State attorneys remind everyone they 'want them to be truthful'. So why is that significant sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #30
Yes, they do, but not usually because the person is obviously lying. Vattel Jun 2013 #34
No, I didn't yet. But I remember the reports immediately after the killing. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #35
we don't know the things you claim we know. Vattel Jul 2013 #36
This is a simple case. A teenager was on his way home from the store, he was followed and frightened sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #37
I Felt The Same Way RobinA Jun 2013 #32
Much appreciated. K&R n/t OneGrassRoot Jun 2013 #22
Kick this. lamp_shade Jun 2013 #24
While I agree with your description of Attorney West's cross COLGATE4 Jun 2013 #26
Careful RobinA Jun 2013 #33
Well said. I thought she did well. DirkGently Jun 2013 #27
Yes, that was beyond far-fetced, that Trayvon was looking forward to some trial in the future. I sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #31

JustAnotherGen

(31,817 posts)
1. Makes sense!
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:17 PM
Jun 2013

And this is a solid point that I agree with:

Luckily, youth has its own unique defense systems. Rachel illustrated my favorite of these very well. When an “authority figure” asks a young adult the same stupid question, over and over, the youth often displays her/his utter contempt for the questioner. I am convinced that this is one of the most sacred duties of youth in the larger society.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
10. Thank you!
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 08:45 PM
Jun 2013

I think that point is likely the most important, in placing Rachel's testimony in its proper context. And as an old man, I thought she did it with style. She's a tough young lady.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
3. I was very impressed with Ms Jeantel and thought she was great
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:22 PM
Jun 2013

Better than I would have handle Don West, the patronizing and annoying defense attorney. I didn't blame her one bit about being upset that she had to come back a second day. I didn't blame her for getting somewhat sarcastic after he pointed out her "change in attitude" the second day. I LOVED her for making an insult of "SIR!" after every one of her answers.

I am sorry that many will forever see her as ignorant or as having an "attitude". She was being forced to be polite to the attorneys who are trying to vilify her friend and to get his killer off with no penalty. I'd have an attitude, too, and I am an aging white woman.

I hope Rachel Jeantel gets more opportunities in her life as a result of this exposure. I think she has the intelligence to take advantage if they are available.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
12. Well said.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 08:53 PM
Jun 2013

I agree with everything you said.

Don West could be a very effective defense attorney in many other cases. But he isn't a good fit in this one. It was surprising, at least to me, that he got thrown off in the opening statement. Did he really expect that the prosecutor wouldn't object in his attempt to inject a "folksy" story into the trial? Or that the judge would allow it? You could see him trying to gather himself, and then came the god-awful "knock-knock" bit.

If one were keeping score, his errors were glaring. Rachel may belong to one or two sub- or co-cultures that a few people are uncomfortable with, but who owns the problem? Not Rachel.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
4. As far as your last sentence, "I felt proud of her, not sympathy.",
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:26 PM
Jun 2013

I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
13. You are right.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 08:55 PM
Jun 2013

The two are not mutually exclusive. And while I felt pride alone, I'm sure that other good people could feel both in this case. (The articles that I had responded to struck me as being sappy sympathy, and lacking in respect.)

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
5. I agree with you very much.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:55 PM
Jun 2013

And since I am not nearly as nice as you are I will say that to me, those who are so sure the jury thinks poorly of the girl seem kind of biased against both the girl and the jury. They also seem to have a fairly basic misunderstanding of the process of defense and prosecution to the point that many sound as if they oppose the accused having any defense at all. I do not take kindly to folks who think any trial should begin with foregone conclusions.
The 'apology from the world' piece, I thought was sort of insulting to the witness and the insults seemed to be toward her youth, class and even her race. Called her a child, which she is not, and seemed to claim she is too tender to take part in civil society, which I do not think is the case.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
15. Right.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:11 AM
Jun 2013

Projecting what the jury is thinking doesn't provide insight as to what the jury is thinking, it's just projecting one's own thinking. I have faith that a jury of intelligent adults can think clearly for themselves.

I agree with your opinion on the "world apology" bit.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
6. excellent post...one quibble
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 06:08 PM
Jun 2013

that defense attorney strikes me as a a bit odd. perhaps he was uncomfortable questioning her, but her really came off as a jerk and a bore. i thought rachel held he own, and i find her story credible.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
29. Even when you are a 'cranky, snarling old fart', your OPs are one of the reasons
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:24 PM
Jun 2013

people come to DU. Too much knee-jerk reaction to everything these days, which is why anything that has some thought behind it, is often not appreciated.

Thanks for one of the more thoughtful perspectives on this trial.

Romulus Quirinus

(524 posts)
8. Amen.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 06:13 PM
Jun 2013

Though I have to say, it kind of shows how well informed those conservative leaders were if they thought that Ringo was the threat!

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
18. Right.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:16 AM
Jun 2013

Of course, his drumming DID get many a youth dancing with wild abdomen in the streets of Chicago.

REP

(21,691 posts)
9. I was impressed
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 06:20 PM
Jun 2013

She reminded me a bit of, "if I am, pray god keep me there; if I am not, pray god put me there." Not that she's led an army or hears voices - or is a martyr - but just showed similar quick wit under trying circumstances.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
14. I guess I find her testimony completely lacking in credibility.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 09:29 PM
Jun 2013

That is partly because of her recorded (April 2 2012) interview by a Florida state attorney. He had to remind her several times that he wanted her to be truthful. When asked if Martin had told her that the guy was coming at him and was going to hit him, she said yes at first and only withdrew the claim after being reminded that he didn't want her to guess and that he wasn't trying get her to say anything unless it was true. It was sad and pathetic.

The interview to which I refer can be found at: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-8-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

Are_grits_groceries

(17,111 posts)
20. Really?
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:24 AM
Jun 2013

"Sad and pathetic"

Yes the defense attorney was, wasn't he.
The defense attorney was trying to get her to say a lot of things beyond her earlier testimony. In addition, she is out of her element. She does not have any courtroom savvy.
Jeantel may be trying to please some body and protect Trayon.

Your post is condescending and highly judgmental of someone who is not as "righteous" as you are.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
23. Did you hear the interview by the state prosecutor to which I referred?
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:35 PM
Jun 2013

You should listen to it. Her behavior in that interview was sad and pathetic.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
30. State attorneys remind everyone they 'want them to be truthful'. So why is that significant
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:27 PM
Jun 2013

to you? How many witness interviews with state attorneys have ever listened to?

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
34. Yes, they do, but not usually because the person is obviously lying.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:36 PM
Jun 2013

Did you listen to the interview?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
35. No, I didn't yet. But I remember the reports immediately after the killing.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 08:57 PM
Jun 2013

From my recollection she has not changed her story. He called her as he was very disturbed by the fact that someone had been following him. She suggested he run and get home as quickly as possible, he told he was doing that. Then she heard another person and heard him asking why this person was following him.

Now, here is the problem. He called her while trying to get away from this stranger who had been stalking him. We know that Zimmerman had been told to say in his truck and that the police would be there any minute. We know that Zimmerman ignored that advice and followed Trayvon who was naturally upset as anyone would be, by being followed by a complete stranger. We know Trayvon was very close to his father's apartment, so that indicates he was trying to get home and away from Zimmerman. His call to her was a natural thing to do if you are being followed by a stranger.

Bottom line, if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, Trayvon would be alive and no one would have heard of either of them. But he didn't.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
36. we don't know the things you claim we know.
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 04:57 PM
Jul 2013

They are in dispute.

And any open-minded person who listens to the interview will find Jaentel to lack credibility.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
37. This is a simple case. A teenager was on his way home from the store, he was followed and frightened
Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:35 PM
Jul 2013

by a complete stranger who had been told to stay in his truck. Had he done that, we would never have heard of either of them and both would be alive and well today.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
32. I Felt The Same Way
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:13 PM
Jun 2013

I read a lot of commentary before seeing any testimony, and I thought neither the witness nor the attorney were as bad as they were made out to be. However, I thought her testimony was not useful to either side, as I have no idea when she was telling the truth and when she wasn't. If I were on the jury I would disregard her testimony completely.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
26. While I agree with your description of Attorney West's cross
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:01 PM
Jun 2013

examination of Rachel: "he is good at coming across as a wise and thoughtful grandfatherly gentleman", I don't agree with your conclusion that "he was not entirely comfortable in questioning Rachel …..not because he was hesitant to try to expose weaknesses in her testimony, but because she was a worthy opponent".

To the extent he was, as you call it 'hesitant' (I'd call it careful), it was not due to her being any kind of a 'worthy opponent' but because he understands that, when there is a mismatch of intellectual strengths an attorney has to be very cautious not to appear to be beating the witness up (which can result in the jury disliking him/her and favoring the witness). West is obviously very skilled and know what he's doing.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
33. Careful
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 04:17 PM
Jun 2013

is a good word. He was definitely walking a tightrope there, and I thought he did a pretty good job.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
27. Well said. I thought she did well.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:10 PM
Jun 2013

West didn't really get her that rattled from the bits I saw. She didn't panic or become confused. West, on the other hand, put forward some transparently awful stuff, like suggesting Martin would have lied to her as he described what was happening in real time. Because ... he anticipated what was about to happen and was setting her up as a defense witness? Didn't track at all.

Juries are susceptible to attorneys making witnesses look bad, but they're also not blind to bullying, and old man hectoring a young girl and, for example, pretending he can't understand the way she is speaking, does not necessarily come off as "winning."

Combined with the horrendous opening "knock-knock joke," which felt like a ghastly attempt to minimize a young man's death and a murder trial, I don't think West's "bad cop" routine is necessarily carrying that much weight.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
31. Yes, that was beyond far-fetced, that Trayvon was looking forward to some trial in the future. I
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 03:29 PM
Jun 2013

doubt the jury is going to buy that. They are instructed to base their decisions only on the evidence. Wild speculations from both attorneys and witnesses should be dismissed during their deliberations. And that was one wild speculation.

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