General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAn epiphany: Those who claim the U.S. is now a police state
have as much credibility as the Christians who claim they are being persecuted in the U.S.
Everything that happens is viewed through this lens and any incident is held up to claim they are right. And if the actual facts don't fit their version of the "truth," what's the harm in distorting, sensationalizing and omitting information to suit your needs.
It is just as offensive to those who have lived or actually are living in real police states as it is to those who actually have been persecuted for their religious beliefs.
(And, yes, I realize I am just a deluded, kool-aid drinking tool of the state, so no need to point that out.)
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)What's wrong with you?
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Only unlike yourself, they weren't being sarcastic and meant every word of it. Some people just thrive on fear, really(and some of THEM even have the nerve to call themselves rationalistic! Or at least, that's how it goes for the climate doomers, if not the Obama bashers, too.)
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)"We already live in Hell." See post # 38.
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)or slavery or the extermination campaign of your choice. And that's just a sampling. A staggering bit of something going on with these folks.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)what you have invested in the system that would make being vigilant and questioning where we are at seem to be problematic. Does it need defense? Doesn't it do a great job at rationalizing and justifying its actions already?
There has been no sudden action that would tell everyone, alright its the police state now. There has been a gradual, creeping militarization and some obvious changes that seems to indicate that we are transitioning to something we many not want or support and it could be very detrimental to what we think of as freedom.
Maybe a better question would be, how far along are we towards a police state? What has changed and why? What are we comparing it to? Maybe we have always been in some form of it when you compare the force and power by a controlling group in respects to the perspectives of, say, anarchism./
So, rather than being black and white about it, I support your view and want to know what the motivation is since the system has little to lose at this stage from our criticism and concern. Calling it a police state will not automatically cut funding and turn it around, but questioning its nature will help us clarify our own positions and response to it and maybe, in the long-run forestall or prevent the day when you do wake up and realize, it IS a police state without a doubt and now there is nothing much to do about it but comply or die.
I don't think anyone really wants to live in a facade and pretend their rights are safe and intact by paying lip service. That's simply not the way to preserve rights and decency. Believing you are free under any kind of enforced tyranny is the worst kind of enslavement there is.
arendt
(5,078 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Or, believing that one is, in fact, living under an enforced tyranny?
I suppose that one could apply some fantastical libertarian/anarchist vision as a comparator to our current/foreseeable state and get there, but (IMHO) that would be very problematic ... for any number of reasons, not the least of which is reality.
arendt
(5,078 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I, also, understand how useful the state of "fear" is for those groups that you speak of.
Promoting a/the fear of what MIGHT happen, is/can be just as paralyzing as promoting false notions of what has happened ... it just works on different groups of people.
arendt
(5,078 posts)Man, that is so upside-down, that I am speechless.
How am I going to have a rational debate with someone who has nothing to say about decades of fear-mongering from the right, but instantly jumps on the left for objecting to the theft of its Constitutional rights? I doubt its going to happen.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)we will probably never be able to have a "rational debate" when you ignore one half of what is going on. Yes ... the Left is, in fact, using fear of what MIGHT happen to promote it's agenda.
BTW, I sincerely believe that the fear agenda, whether from the right or left, is coming from the same place ... those that wish to capitalize from/profit on the divisions that fear creates.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)We have a winner.
arendt
(5,078 posts)
Cha
(297,120 posts)they ever get a lot of subscribers.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And, or better, But this is a relatively new phenonoma here are DU, that is promoted by only a few, prolific, DUers who readily admit that their being Democrats, is 3rd or 4th on their list of political self-descriptors.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)a lot more people were jumping at shadows during the Bush Presidency.
The "Is it fascism yet?" threads were very popular. Bush was always just one tiny step away from declaring martial law in an executive order so he could invade Iran. In fact, it was argued that Bush DID sign an executive order allowing him to arrest demonstrators, people who protested the Iraq war, and I went around and around with some people on that after I read the executive order.
Given the nature of this place though, I am not sure how many of them are still here.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I guess "they", as a group, have shifted from the "Bush is destroying america" to a "President Obama is destroying america" crowd; each being equally histronic.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)Could it be some people have a problem with authority no matter who is in charge? Surely it couldn't be that simple.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)No that couldn't possibly be the case, here ... After all, this IS DemocraticUnderground, not AnarchistUnderground, or LibertarianUnderground, or ProgressiveUnderground ...
Oh wait ... look at some of the political self-descriptors ...
arendt
(5,078 posts)then, maybe, people wouldn't think you are running a flame-bait thread.
This kind of post just makes people think you are only here to piss on people, you know like the Arkansas GOPer who said that Boston was quivering because it didn't have guns.
Just sayin'.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)Shut down a discussion by declaring it flame bait. No, the OP can't have a legitimate point if it contradicts yours. It's flame bait (although you seem to be the only one running around flaming).
False equivalency. Declare your opponent just as despicable as someone who most people would regard as ignorant and promoting more violence.
What else you got in your bag of tricks?
arendt
(5,078 posts)You three trade smears about the left, but I have "shut down your discussion".
First, your discussion is not-even-camoflagued sneering at the left.
Second, you engage in this sneering and then get angry when you are called out for your own words.
Chutzpah has nothing on you.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)DUers who readily admit that their being Democrats, is 3rd or 4th on their list of political self-descriptors.
Do you mean the DINOS who are really Goldwater Republicans, the Leftists who are really Maoists, the libertarians who are really just selfish, or all of the above?
I fill in all of the above myself.
arendt
(5,078 posts)Your position is as much a caricature as the "police state" position you attack.
Reality is much more nuanced. That is why people fear a creeping loss of rights - one situation at a time, one legal right at a time, until they have no rights left. In that sense, you and those you criticize are both half right. The thuggery is not yet a police state; but this isn't a real democracy anymore, and its getting worse.
I wrote a [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/09/953760/-The-Extraordinary-Rendition-of-Our-Rights diary about this in 2011] which emphasizes how the police state is turned on and off as the situtation demands. So, the quote below has ZERO to do with Boston:
When the elites want to take something from the serfs, they simply declare the legal equivalent of a free fire zone around the object they covet or the group they want to smash. For example, ACORN was stripped of its funding in what amounted to a kangaroo court. The fact that the charges were baseless (i.e., illegal) made no difference, because the GOP created a legal free-fire zone targeting ACORN. There were no "rules of engagement" (i.e., no due process); it was simply "kill them all". Barbarbism.
Strategic barbarism is a sword with two edges. The other edge is the refusal to enforce the law against obviously criminal behavior. Hence, we refuse to prosecute anyone involved in the Great Heist of 2008. When even the hard-right SCOTUS says to give Gitmo inmates a real trial, it just somehow never happens. Laws? We don't need no steenkin' laws.
And these "new rules" are almost always first used on "untouchables", terrorists, sex offenders, drug dealers. Who could object to catching them? Never mind how many rules we broke to do it. The end justifies the means. (Gee that sounds familiar, where could I have heard that?)
So, Boston has added the "preventative lockdown" to the creeping dismantling of our Constitutional rights. In another diary today, two lockdowns were reported in Colorado over thefts from a WalMart. Really, theft from a WalMart. Would you say it is a complete overreaction to lockdown (i.e., declare martial law) a neighborhood over a petty thief who probably is unarmed?
I beg you to drop the inflammatory rhetoric and discuss the impact of legitimizing lockdowns of entire metropolitan areas on our rights.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)arendt
(5,078 posts)nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)because it was exactly that thread that made me have my epiphany.
Oh, it was just a man stealing from that awful Walmart. Your characterization: "Really, theft from a WalMart. Would you say it is a complete overreaction to lockdown (i.e., declare martial law) a neighborhood over a petty thief who probably is unarmed?"
And then let's look at the actual story:
"Because Taylor has a history of violence and using weapons, police called in the Larimer County Sheriff’s Office SWAT team.... In addition to being a suspect in the Walmart robbery, Taylor also was wanted on a warrant for failing to appear in an ongoing court case in which he had been charged with kidnapping, felony menacing and violating a restraining order....
Taylor in 1998 pleaded guilty to leading police on a chase through the city after firing 14 shots from a rifle into the home of a Fort Collins couple. Also that year, Taylor was convicted of robbing an East Mulberry hotel."
http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20130218/NEWS01/302180031/Wanted-Fort-Collins-felon-arrested-following-Walmart-robbery?nclick_check=1
How dare the police take actions to protect the neighborhood from a wanted felon who has been known to fire a gun at innocents? Do you see the disconnect between your version and the facts of the case?
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)buzz words. I guess they're some kind of left wing scare words, too. They're certainly not the truth of what happened. I'm from Colorado, by the way.
OrwellwasRight
(5,170 posts)FTA is about the most frequent reason to issue a warrant in the country. Happens multiple times each day in every community in every state in the nation. And for crimes much more heinous that "menacing" and violating a restraining order.
I don't want to live in a country that locks down neighborhoods and prevents the free movement of persons simply because someone of ill repute might be walking around getting away with something. And I am sure you don't either, no matter what you post. That would mean lock down everywhere, all the time. That would be a "police state." Don't excuse it. Or minimize it. It's disgusting. And has nothing to do with freedom.
CrispyQ
(36,446 posts)They are conditioning us. They watched the reaction in Boston, & they know most Americans will acquiesce in exchange for being kept 'safe.' The OP needs to read The Shock Doctrine, cuz it's coming to America, state by state.
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
― Frank Zappa
arendt
(5,078 posts)that has been propagandized for. And, BTW, don't pay any attention to the changing OFFICIAL stories:
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/facts-keep-changing-about-boston-bombings-and-its-fueling-conspiracy-theory
While it’s understandable that initial leads and assertions might end up being wrong in a dynamic situation like the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing, wholesale contradictions can encourage skepticism of the motives of those releasing inaccuracies — as with initial, false reports that Osama bin Laden hid behind his wife when U.S. forces shot him. Another effect of changing details can be to encourage conspiracy theorists who latch onto inconsistencies, and to undermine trust in authorities.
Just be glad you are "safe".
jsr
(7,712 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)as my recent reading shows.
"Four times, for example, the Supreme Court has ordered the El Paso Natural Gas Company - the 9th largest of US corporations - to divest itself of connections which are illegal: first in 1962, then in 1964, then in 1967, and again in 1969. The Supreme Court's various orders were each printed and neatly bound in law books for future legal scholars but, as Michael Green says in an article in "The Washington Monthly,"
'...for all the practical effects these orders have had, the justices might as well have kept their opinions to themselves. It is now 1971 and El Paso has divested nothing. There seems to be every chance moreover that Congress will overturn the four landmark decisions and award El Paso an ex post facto exemption from the antitrust laws which it was held to have violated. This will elevate the gas company to a position of primacy and prestige somewhat exceeding that of the federal government and the Supreme Court.'" "Whatever became of Sin?" Karl Menninger 1973 pp 114-115
If memory serves it was Old Hickory himself, Andrew Jackson who said something like this "Well the Supreme Court ruled on it, now let them try to enforce it" (okay, I quickly looked it up)
"The Cherokee contested Georgia's right to assert jurisdiction over them in the courts, and in 1832 Chief Justice John Marshall found in their favour ... Jackson - reputedly with the words 'John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it' - rejected the ruling and encouraged Georgia to continue its harassment of the Indians." "The Earth Shall Weep" by James Wilson p. 167
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Is this the post to which you are referring? If it is, let me tell you a few things.
First of all, I am a Democrat, as was my mother and father before me. And, I am 58 years old, and very disturbed at what I see happening in my country. We can't walk down our own streets anymore without being stopped by the police and asked to ID ourselves. I remember a time when this was extremely unlikely to happen, and nowadays it's a normal event. I read where, in New York, they are searching people randomly, without probable cause. I have never seen this in my lifetime, and I am alarmed. I see videos of what happened in Boston, and see the big armoured vehicles, with turrets and a soldier with an assault rifle at the ready, and I am alarmed. I read where they sent a SWAT team in to gather DNA from a suspect. (DNA!) And, they get the wrong house, shoot a little girl in the throat and kill her. I am alarmed.
I think that this is a normal reaction. And I am worried for my countrymen. I am worried for my country. And we might not be a police state yet, but we are on that slippery slope. Should we wait until we get there to speak out? It will be too late.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)But it was the one triggered this thread today.
Please see post 12. The actual facts of the case do not fit the characterization of the situation.
arendt
(5,078 posts)I said I was going to try to rescue this flame-bait.
If you stay micro-focused on the details (which, as I said in another reply, keep changing - in Boston, that is), you ignore the creeping nature of the infringement of our rights.
Other posters are telling you the same thing. But, you don't want to engage in that argument. You want to be "right" about minutia.
As for the Colorado situation, I want to ask you how many other similar stories you heard BEFORE the Boston lockdown. The point is that now, they are trying to NORMALIZE lockdowns as an everyday tactic for even more militarized, SWAT tactics. The fact that you can defend individual cases does nothing to speak to the fact that "lockdown is the new normal"; and that is not good for our democracy. And, of course, you needed a Shock Doctrine event like the bombing to roll out plans that have been on the shelf for a long time.
Funny how you don't want to discuss the big picture.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)and when the facts don't pan out, just ignore that to focus on the bigger picture.
And what happened in Boston was not a lockdown, just ask the people that live there. Funny how the ones that actually lived through this have a different story. But what do they know? They just were actually there and experienced it.
And thank you for your concern. I don't need you to "rescue" my thread. I said exactly what I wanted to say. I don't need you to jump in and steer the conversation I wanted to start to whatever you deem a better path. You have points you want to make, start your own thread. Of course, this is a discussion board so feel free to comment, but don't act like you are doing me a favor by trying to hijack my thread.,
arendt
(5,078 posts)Dude, I live in Boston, I know what happened. I have friends in Watertown. So do not tell me that I don't know what was going on.
"what happened in Boston was not a lockdown"
Tell that to my traumatized friend in Watertown, who watched Blackhawk (i.e., military) helicopters circling over her house and more police cars than she has ever seen in her life, while being told to stay indoors and getting zero information relevant to her location.
You are cherry picking, whether or not you admit it.
As for hijacking your flame-bait, its the best thing that could happen to it.
arendt
(5,078 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)on where one has lived. Having grown up in a "urban community" (read: Black neighborhood) ... this "lock-down", with circling helicopters, and heavily armed patrols, was a fairly regular event.
arendt
(5,078 posts)Tell me more. The city if you can.
I know that Living While Black is a major crime in most American cities. But, the helicopters - I mean some outsider might notice.
----
But, in response, I want you to know that I support the crowd who think that the New Jim Crow is yet another stain on America. Having said that, I hope you just mean to point out how bad things have been in the black community, and not proposing that white people have no right to complain. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that, but the general level of snarl in this diary makes me want to make sure I haven't missed your point.
I'm against this kind of overkill no matter which Americans it happens to.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)yesterday. It belongs to the local mosquito abatement department. Soon, they'll be flying over the lake near my home and spraying it with a biological mosquito control agent. It's not a pesticide, but a bacterium that attacks mosquito larvae. It's going to make a lot of noise, but we'll be safer from West Nile virus, which is endemic here.
I also see big cargo helicopters fly over my house, during National Guard training exercises. They're really loud, but they fly at a pretty high altitude, so it's not horrible.
The local police department also has a helicopter, but I don't see it very often. It only flies where there's a serious crime and an at-large suspect. If it's in my neighborhood, I stay indoors, since I don't need any confrontations with fleeing felons.
I'm not sure where the overkill is, but it's not here in the Twin Cities of Minnesota.
nebenaube
(3,496 posts)I remember the place going all black shirts and combat boots.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)from the riots in the 60s to the present "war on drugs" (though I don't live there anymore).
Just pointing out that what occurs in the Black community, goes unnoticed (by the larger community) until it bleeds into the white comunity.
arendt
(5,078 posts)
Just pointing out that what occurs in the Black community, goes unnoticed (by the larger community) until it bleeds into the white comunity.
Point very well taken.
But, usually, by the time that happens, its too late for the white community.
Sorry about the underserved police presence in your past (and perhaps in your present).
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...was a fairly regular event."
Okay, then.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)by connecting your previous posts up thread to this one, that you have been conditioned to accept preventative lockdowns (circling helicopters and large police presence) as acceptable?
I don't like to infer, unless there's no other choice, so were the preventative lockdowns from your past experience acceptable to you then? Are they now, in hindsight, an acceptable practice to you? Is what happened in your neighborhood comparable to what took place in Watertown?
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)And, I'm sorry, but I read post 12. (And, by the way, I don't think it's post 12 you are referring to, in terms of the facts of this case.) Nevertheless, the FACTS of this case do not take away from my point. They locked down an entire neighborhood, once again, to get one guy. We are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everytime the cops have the wherewithal, and the excuse, WE get pulled out of our homes, or put in lockdown status, while THEY do their job. Nope, uh uh. Not going to cut it.
Most of us don't live on military bases; or in prisons, and we should never be on lockdown status unless something like a nuclear device is a threat. NOT to get one guy who stole some shit from Walmart and has a record of being violent. NOT for that.
They are doing what they are doing because they CAN do it. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Why in the world would you seek to justify such behavior?
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)I own a dog, and he has to be walked. The only thing that any cop has done when I'm walking is to wave at me. I walk in downtown St. Paul, too. A lot, since parking is horrendous there. I've never seen a cop stop anyone and demand ID.
So, where do you live, and how often are you stopped to be IDed? I'll stay away from that place.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)and haven't heard of anyone else being stopped and asked for ID, either. When I say very diverse, I mean it, too. We're a rainbow neighborhood, to say the least.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Precisely about the NYPD's stop and frisk tactics. You know, where they stop young people of color walking down the street for no good reason and hassle them. It happens HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of times each year.
Some of the testimonies from that trial are quite illuminating.
I'm glad things are nice in St. Paul. Being a youth in South Dakota, the Twin Cities was the nearest place to go see major rock concerts back in the early 1970s. We rocked the St. Paul Civic Center! There was also an island in the Mississippi where they had concerts....I remember something about a band called Lamont Cranston...
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)The island you're thinking of is Harriet Island in St. Paul. I often fish from a dock in that park. I caught a 35 lb. channel catfish there once. I tend to avoid it during major public events, though.
But, now that you mention it, a DNR conservation officer did ask to see my fishing license there once. After he saw it, he asked me some questions. He wanted to know what bait I was using and how I had my tackle set up. He was planning to come there and do some fishing, and I was having great luck that day. Another time, a guy with a TSA uniform stopped to ask about my luck. They run paddlewheel boat tours from there, and the DHS is interested in the Mississippi River as an access method. They even have a really cool boat they use for patrols and inspections.
We did have several cops on our block though, last year once. We were having our annual block party, and they were invited to drop by. All the kids were interested, but they were more interested in the fire truck that showed up.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)fishing information. I'm always glad when one asks for my fishing license. It gives me a chance to get some tips for whatever water I'm fishing. With budget cuts, though, I don't see them very often.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I still occasionally read the South Dakota home town newspaper, and the court news frequently has cases of guys with Hmong or Lao or Karen names getting busted for fishing without a license.
Most of these guys came from the communities in St. Paul to work in the packing houses.
Shit, the South Dakotans barely had time to get used to the Mexicans, and now they've got the Hmong.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)It's partly a language problem, and partly a cultural issue. There's a Hmong language outreach by the MN DNR, and it's working. I've fished with several Hmong anglers, and they're pretty good fishermen. I took one Hmong neighbor out on my boat, and he outfished me, and I'm pretty good, myself. He had a fishing license, though, but didn't quite understand the regulations on bag and possession limits. They're really complicated here in MN, and vary from water to water. It's no big deal for me, since I'm almost 100% catch and release, but I did help my neighbor understand the regulations. I must admit that they sometimes make little sense, though, especially the things like size restrictions and windows.
The only limits I really pay attention to are the panfish limits, since those are the only fish I ever keep. I also keep rough fish for consumption, for which there aren't usually limits. Freshwater drum are my favorite eating fish, and nobody in Minnesota ever eats them, it seems. They're delicious, easy to catch, and lots of fun to fish for, but most of the people I know get angry when one bites. I keep telling them to put them in the live well and filet them for dinner, but they don't get it. Loads better than walleye, which are bland and tasteless, as far as I'm concerned.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)And I see the disparity of how blacks, and whites, are dealt with by police all the time. I even comment about it, and obviously that I find it wrong.
If one police car is present when a car is pulled over, 99 times out of 100 there is a white person driving. If more than one police car is present, then 9 times out of ten, it's a black behind the wheel. I see it everyday, and it makes me ashamed to be part of the populace that enables that system.
I saw a friend of mine pulled over on the way to work. I walked in an told the management that the friend might be late because the police were pulling over random black men in Mercedes Benz today. My friend arrived shortly and said the Police had pulled him over to admire the classic car he had rebuilt. Imagine that, pulled over so they could "admire" the classic car he had rebuilt.
We can't judge an event through the results. The ends do not justify the means. That is always the first defense when the NYPD Stop and frisk policy is questioned. They claim it has reduced crime. It doesn't make it constitutional, it may be effective, but not constitutional based upon the results. Also, I'd question the argument that it is effective, because they fiddle with numbers all the time. If a criminal plea bargains a charge of Assault down to disturbing the peace, then the assault bumps down on the crime statistics too.
Logical
(22,457 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)Minorities are unfairly targeted by police in some jurisdictions. There's no question about that. In my neighborhood, though, it's not something I've observed.
In rural Georgia, schools force kids to attend religious assemblies, too. They don't do that here, either. There are lots of wrong things going on. My observations are simply my observations from my own area. I can't speak for any other area from direct knowledge.
msongs
(67,394 posts)
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)that in order to have a "police state" or an oppressive authoritarian state you had to have a class of wealthy who gathered all power and resources to themselves, and a class of deprived, who are most importantly kept in a condition of need without opportunity to become wealthy, or to provide for themselves.
My fear and outrage has been tempered over my lifetime by the realization that there is very little deprivation going on, in spite of the inequality we have. If I live close to the poverty line, yet I enjoy a good house to live in, good food, plenty of free time, and my family is safe and well, its hard to stoke fear and outrage. I could make more money if I worked harder, but the quality of life is greatest for me if I have time to do the things I find most important.
If some guy somewhere has five mansions and 20 cars, that means not a thing to me.
Perhaps the whole topics just goes "whoooosh" over my head, but I think of the difference between now, and any previous time in human history. We have greater opportunities, greater wealth in physical objects, greater opportunities for participation in society, and more freedom than any previous generation.
arendt
(5,078 posts)you had to have a class of wealthy who gathered all power and resources to themselves
Check.
a class of deprived, who are most importantly kept in a condition of need without opportunity to become wealthy, or to provide for themselves.
Check.
If I live close to the poverty line, yet I enjoy a good house to live in, good food, plenty of free time, and my family is safe and well, its hard to stoke fear and outrage.
Not in America in 2013.
Perhaps you are thinking of America in 1985 or even 1995. But since Clinton killed welfare, and the job offshoring killed our industries, and they let the assault weapons ban lapse, the situation on the ground does not resemble what you are talking about. Now we drug test food stamp recipients, and the number of gun deaths is about to surpass the number of auto accident deaths, and they are trying to kill Planned Parenthood - a major provider of health care to poor women.
I do not recognize today's America in what you write.
hunter
(38,309 posts)Participate or slowly starve.
And we think a "Police State" label is bad?
We already live in Hell.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Do you know about the twice-signed NDAA? Do you? Section 1021?
Noam Chomsky: Obama's Attack on Civil Liberties Has Gone Way Beyond Imagination
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-obamas-attack-civil-liberties-has-gone-way-beyond-imagination
Bloomberg Says Interpretation of Constitution Will ‘Have to Change’ After Boston Bombing
http://politicker.com/2013/04/bloomberg-says-post-boston-interpretation-of-the-constitution-will-have-to-change/
Bloomberg: New Yorkers will 'never know where our cameras are'
http://rt.com/usa/bloomberg-never-know-where-cameras-477/
May Day Is Around the Corner, and the FBI Wants Us (activists) to Know They're Watching
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/04/26/may-day-is-around-the-corner-and-the-fbi-wants-us-to-know-theyre-watching
Freedom of Information Act documents reveal DHS helped arrange attacks upon the Occupy Movement
http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2013/04/dhs-spy-files-on-occupy-movement-part-2.html
DHS Watchdog OKs ‘Suspicionless’ Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border (death of 4th Amendment up to 100 miles inland along entire US border)
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/02/electronics-border-seizures/
How LAPD are made into a tentacle of the DHS (Check your PD for DHS "iWatch" connections)
http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-lapd-are-made-into-tentacle-of-dhs.html
Boston police now want drones hovering over next year's marathon:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/24/boston-police-want-drones-for-marathon-security/
It is now a Federal crime to protest W(ar criminal) Bush in person.
http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2013/01/it-is-now-federal-crime-to-protest-war.html
Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.alternet.org/meet-contractors-turning-americas-police-paramilitary-force?paging=off
I know it's difficult to accept but it is the truth. It must be accepted in order to face and solve it. FISA was extended for five years. CISPA very nearly moved forward this week. Just ask us Occupiers who have stood up and demanded that the unacceptable be changed:
Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. Do you not notice that suddenly, Americans are "terrorists"? Did you not notice "Stop and Frisk"? There is so much more I could add here, unfortunately. And that anyone has become normalized to the creeping trend against our Constitutional freedoms is even more frightening.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 28, 2013, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm replying so I can go back and read these later.
I, too, am noticing a lot of things making me very uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable, also, with the giving up of privacy most people seem to take for granted.
Remember when Kramer asked "Why does Radio Shack need your zip code to sell you batteries?" Just the start, I think...(just trying to inject a bit of humor....)
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Coercion of political groups through force or threat of force (jail/prison) is domestic terrorism by the FBI's own definition. Yet big bank HSBC were caught laundering millions of dollars of international drug cartel monies and were punished not one bit. And none of the corrupt banksters and corporations who nearly destroyed the US economy in 2008 (who are still being "bailed out" via taxpayer dollars) have been prosecuted. Strange, that.
There may be some here who are so interested in "party purity" that they would drive off those attempting to warn them of the corruption destroying the party, much less the entire country, and encourage them to act against it.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)When the time comes, they are going to come take your batteries away. Think, indeed.
Or, could the stores just ask for ZIP codes for marketing purposes? Seeing where their customer base is located or judging if a selective mail campaign is effective. If you think it's something nefarious, lie. It's not like they ask for an ID to verify. (Oh, I know. It's coming. This is just the first step...)
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... flamebait.
Seems the OP got spanked pretty well for it's effort, as it deserved.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)Looks like others here agree with me.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)So, exactly what's your point?
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)
Seriously though, I agree with you on the all things seen through that particular lens thing. It's too bad because it leads to boy who cried wolf syndrome. Forever crying wolf results in no one believing or paying much attention when it's actually true.
Julie
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Hell, there's plenty of people on this site in general that still haven't caught up with the real world yet.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)I'm astounded with the one poster's comment that "We are living in hell" in this thread.
There's lots of things that concern me and we definitely need to be vigilant, but the hyperbole and misrepresentations really distorts the very real discussions we should be havinging.
Oooh, let's post pics of cops in scary gear. Sure, that gets a reaction, but what are the circumstances? When the WTO met in Chicago, the place was crawling with cops, but most were in their regular uniforms, but stormtroopers were on the ready. And, yes, the threats are very real. Why should LEOs be put in harm's way without the gear needed to protect themselves? And, no, all protesters are NOT good and there are many evil people in this world.
I've participated in many protests. And guess what, the cops really don't care and aren't out to get you. What have I witnessed firsthand? Some people deliberately goading cops into confrontations to get pics to post to say, "See, we are living in a police state."
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)It is just as offensive to those who have lived or actually are living in real police states as it is to those who actually have been persecuted for their religious beliefs.
So true. KnR.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I agree it is insulting to those who actually lived in one.
Response to nobodyspecial (Original post)
Post removed
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I traveled to a Latin American country multiple times in the 1970s and 1980s where there were military police on every corner with automatic weapons. If they suspected you of a crime, or other infraction, they could simply shoot you. If they had made a mistake, no harm would come to them, no one would ask why they did it. The military police could search you or your house or car at any time for any reason or no reason at all. If they suspected you of 'subversive activities' they could burn your house down and kill you. No one would ask them to explain why they did any of this. The person in charge of the country was a general. The country also had a President and a legislature that were elected, but the General could depose the President and bypass the legislature at will, and did so several times.
All mail was subject to being read and the military could tap your phone at any time and didn't need a reason. You often heard telltale 'clicks' when making calls to or from there with another country as those calls were of particular interest to the military and the General.
That is a police state.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Personally, I am a victim of propoganda. Our own cold war propoganda to be precise. I expect us to be BETTER than a police state.
During the cold war, it was taken as a sign of the West's inherent superiority that we didn't need to keep files on our own people without legal cause. The extensive files of the Stasi, the little jars with scents that could be used on search dogs, the large fraction of the state employed to watch the activities of the rest. Yes, I was raised to see that as Laughable.
But frankly it's human nature to want to snoop into others private lives and technology has created a situation that the Stasi would have LITERALLY killed to have. Evidently you WEREN'T here back in the Bushie days when we first started talking about the implications of Total Information Awareness if it existed and was in the hands a group unafraid to purge the civil service based on personal loyalty to a political party. Of course, Bush had an "R" after his name so it was completely acceptable to talk about what a Bad Thing(TM) it was on this very site.
Of course TIA was defeated on paper but most of its ideas came to fruition under several less well-publicized names and with better implementations. Certainly, it is not in vogue to gripe about it since we can trust the current wielder of the power and it isn't cool to bitch about it if it makes our own guy look bad -- tut, tut.
After the next big Republican victory, I figure your "epiphany" will be in the dustbin of history and you'll suddenly realize your kool aid is not as flavorful as you think it is right now. I'm patient.
So are we a police state yet? No. I don't see people disappearing off the street. But to evoke Godwin, the Nazi party was founded in a federal republic in 1920, came to power in 1933 and made it's first direct roundups of Jews in 1938. Eighteen years from a bunch of marginal whackos to the very culmination of an evil police state.
Try reading Shirer's "The Nightmare Years" sometime -- awesome story, good real-life drama written by a REAL Journalist and it shows definitively that you don't wake up one morning to find it's suddenly an evil police state. The process is actually kind of gradual, a stream of unending omens that individually aren't that bad - until you realize that it is too late.
So no, you're not deluded -- you're simply myopic.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)But what happens all the time. In every case, our civil rights are in danger. In every case, we must demand appearance to the spirit. We can't wave them once, not for any reason, because that has led us to where we are now.
We are not yet in a fully fledged police state. We are traveling down the path. There are those among us who have seen it. There are those among us that have protested it, and there are those among us who have endured it. Yet when we as a nation announce a new power for our police, we edge ever closer to that destination, the Police State.
That path is not traveled in one step, or two. We travel it in thousands of little steps. Each one an exception to a right, each one an exception to the law we have all known and counted on to protect us. Each illegal wiretap was a step in that direction. Each person put secretly on a no fly list, with no accountability in sight, and no explanation given is a tiny little step. Each child groped notionally for our security is another tiny little step. At first, we welcome those things, because we believe, we believe that the Government is out to protect us from some shadowy danger lurking and plotting against us out there.
At first, we welcome the changes. Then we notice something, the changes are not just those little things, how they are being carried out is very different. We understood and our Elected Representatives voted to allow the Federal Government to use National Security Letters. The threat we were told, was that while we were trying to get enough evidence for a warrant, Terrorists would have time to carry out their nefarious plans. We had to circumvent the Fourth Amendment, we had no choice, if we were to be safe.
Then we learned, that the FBI carried out tens of thousands of illegal searches with the National Security Letters, and some of us saw that none of those letters led to an arrest for Terrorism. They were being used as a handful of us thought they might, when the Feds did not have enough evidence for a Warrant, they just get a NSL. We took steps closer to the Police State destination. If you believe that the Federal Agents are now refraining from that terrible violation of the law, then you delude yourself, because the Government has never stopped using a power as long as it was available. They may not do it tens of thousands of times a year, but they still break out the letter when they don't yet have enough information for a warrant.
We protested, and we objected. Many of us claimed that Bush was the same as Hitler, and then we had salvation. President Obama was a reality, not a dream. He said that the letters would be no more, but they still are. We didn't walk back along the path, turning away from the Police State, we slowed our rate of travel, and we felt uncomfortable with that, but we trust President Obama, but who is next to hold that power, that throttle on the travel to the dreaded Police State destination?
We have limits on when the Police may use Thermal Imaging to watch inside of houses. But those limits don't apply to the drones that soon will fill the sky. The Government can and does turn on cell phones, and monitor conversations. Isn't that a great listening device? One you purchased, and one you carry with you at all times. Best of all, you even charge the battery and pay for the wireless network that they use to follow you.
They plant GPS trackers on cars, and when the trackers are found, present the one who found it a National Security Letter to keep him quiet. We are in a heightened state of fear, and the fear is rapidly shifting from nefarious shadow figures who seek our destruction, to the forces we have enabled, and empowered to protect us.
So we aren't in a police state, but you can't deny we are on a dangerous path, one that leads to that terrible destination.
