The Napalm Girl, Then and Now...

[kpete]

SUN APR 28, 2013 AT 03:30 AM PDT
Morning Open Thread: The Napalm Girl and Her Photographer - Then and Now
byJaxDemFollowforMOT - Morning Open Thread

To take a photograph is to participate in another person's mortality, vulnerability, mutability. Precisely by slicing out this moment and freezing it, all photographs testify to time's relentless melt. ~ Susan Sontag

June 8, 1972 a South Vietnamese Air Force plane dropped two bombs while an A-1 Skyraider poured napalm onto a group of people in the village of Trang Bang, near Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City) in South Vietnam. The pilots mistook the villagers for enemy combatants. In the center of the photo, naked and crying in pain from the napalm is Kim Phuc.



Following her rescue by Nick Ut, Kim remained in the hospital for 14 months receiving treatment for her third degree burns which covered over half of her body. Upon her release she returned to her village, but required years of physical therapy. In the early 1980s her government subjected her to numerous interviews and used her in propaganda films. Kim became a "national symbol of war" and as such was supervised daily.

Kim was allowed later in life to relocate to Cuba in order to further her education. While there she met a fellow Vietnamese student, Bui Huy Toan with whom she fell in love and married. On their honeymoon to Moscow in 1992 their plane stopped in Canada where the two defected and were granted political asylum. Kim, her husband and two children, Thomas and Stephen currently live in the Toronto area.

the rest of this amazing story here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/28/1205312/-Morning-Open-Thread-The-Napalm-Girl-and-Her-Photographer-Then-and-Now



we asked then and we ask now

[asjr]

1. Thius is the reason I try not revisiting the war in Vietnam. That picture

is imprinted in my memory and has troubled me ever since. Thanks for updating me on that frightened child.

[grilled onions]

2. We Must Never Forget

At the same time she has several huge qualities that I admire deeply. Her compassion for forgiveness, her ability to not only move forward but to create a foundation that will and has helped others in similar situations and not being afraid to be in public to accomplish the goals she has in mind.

[bvar22]

3. "The pilots mistook the villagers for enemy combatants."

We haven't learned a gawd dammned thing.

[malaise]

14. And that's the truth

What's worse is the arrogance towards others as if the world has missed the double standards

[Heather MC]

41. Exactly, by changing the rules to allow women in active duty combat, it means

We are actively planning more combat. War is planned it's not be accident.

And PEACE has to be planned too, but we never plan for peace.

But we are definitely ready for war

One day someone is going to kick our Asses. And we will act like we didn't deserve it.

[delrem]

44. There were a shitload of such "mistakings". And nobody called it that at the time.

[love_katz]

4. I like the "War, what is it good for?" poster.

I would like to have that for my sig line.

Do you have a link where I can find it?

Thank you for this post.

Terrible memories, but we must NOT forget, otherwise we are doomed to repeat.

[SemperEadem]

5. right click on the image

and go to "properties" and it should give you the link to where the image is stored.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. The obvious answer is "ending the Holocaust, and preventing the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo".

It's also a great shame the US never declared war on Rwanda.

"Most wars have done more harm than good" is no the same as "no war has ever done any good".

[libdude]

6. Still remember

This is one of the photos I vividly remember from that time, I am glad to hear that she is alive and well and finding a fullfilling life.
Many photos from that period still speak to me,
The stacks of U.S. soldiers bodies piled in a truck bed.
The bodies of victims of the Muy Lai massacre.
The summary execution of a suspected Viet Cong detainee.
The young woman bending over the body of a student killed at Kent State Univ. in Ohio.
As I think about the current times, what would the photos speak of?
No pictures of flag draped coffins.
Iraqi villagers and journalists machine gunned which was exposed by Bradley Manning, now being prosecuted by the Obama Admin.
What will the pictures of the drones strikes show as to how murder has been sanitized. If this were here in the U. S. would we call it terrorism? Is it morally different because we justify it as pre-emptive self defense?
Just some random thoughts, as Robert Pirsig said " An inquiry into values ".

[grahamhgreen]

7. If only it could touch the chicken hawks hearts as it does ours. Good for nothing, indeed.

[cantbeserious]

8. Are Obama's Drones Any Less Devastating?

eom

[Recursion]

12. Than sorties of napalm strikes? Yes, entirely.

It's kind of ridiculous that you would even ask that.

[cantbeserious]

13. So Are We To Conclude That You Support Obama's Drone War

eom

[Recursion]

15. Nope

And you're lying if you claim that's what I said.

I said drone strikes cause less devastation -- orders of magnitude less -- than sorties of bombers dropping napalm.

Shame on you.

[cantbeserious]

17. That One Cannot See The Destructive Equivalence Of Vietnam And Obama's Drone Wars Is Telling

eom

[stevenleser]

18. The only thing that is telling is your repeated use of the straw man fallacy. nt

[cantbeserious]

19. Such A Limited Perspective - How Telling

eom

[stevenleser]

24. When your argument is a logical fallacy, there is nothing to discuss. nt

[azurnoir]

28. a kinder gentler wounding and maiming

thanks I feel so relieved

[stevenleser]

29. That has nothing to do with the other persons point that this person mangled. nt

[cantbeserious]

34. Remind Me How Death And Terror Are Illogical

eom

[stevenleser]

37. The Nizkor Project

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Explains each logical fallacy in detail and why when you use one, your point is simply unsupported. For instance, the straw man fallacy, which you seem to not be able to discuss an issue without using is:

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
----------------------------------------------------
Emphasis on the last sentence is mine. In every single response to Recursion you grossly distorted their position. That is a strong indication you are unable to refute what their actual position is.

[Skittles]

38. let that one go, steven

it's like arguing with a child

[stevenleser]

39. Good info to know. Will do. nt

[Are_grits_groceries]

21. Drones and napalm both cause destruction.

The magnitude is the question. Please Google napalm and Vietnam and try to learn something.

The equivalence is on using such weapons that cause such destruction especially to civilians. Each death or wound causes each person and family a world of hurt.

The equivalence fails in comparing drone strikes to bomber sorties. The latter caused magnitudes more of those 'worlds of hurt.'

There is no comparing each family's misery or each person's. Their wounds and deaths are grievous in their own right. Each is devastating.

[stevenleser]

25. I'm former Air Force. I know very well what napalm is. Thank you. nt

[cantbeserious]

35. So, Since Drones Cause Less Hurt - Obama's Methods Are Better? - Terror And Death Are Just That

eom

[Junkpet]

43. Idealogues will always be wrong, because nothing pure is realistic.

Humans are animals and wars are inevitable. Measured force is a reality. I'm not saying that peace shouldn't be our goal, but when we don't declare war things like Rwanda go left unchecked and when we do declare war innocents are killed. We can't have our cake and eat it too, at least not yet.

[Are_grits_groceries]

46. Not eom.

I did NOT say that. I pointed out the equivalence and a difference. The difference is in magnitude. As I said, each casualty is a catastrophe to that person and those around them no matter how large the attack.

Nobody has said they approve of the drone program. You seem to believe that pointing out the devastation by another means in Vietnam is equivalent to approving of drones. It is not. It is an attempt to understand a new method of fighting that also brings pain. That has to be driven home because what the public believes is important. The drone program also may seem benign to them.

Quit making misleading accusatins.


.

[Are_grits_groceries]

45. Sorry!

Meant to reply to the other argument. We are arguing the same thing I believe.

[jeff47]

31. Let's see...on one hand you blanket a village with burning gasoline

and on the other hand, you set off an explosive about the size of the bombs in Boston.

Golly, I wonder which might be more devastating....incinerating entire villages, or relatively small bombs. Hmmmm.....

[cantbeserious]

33. Both Are Methods Of Terror Or Is That Point Lost On One

eom

[jeff47]

42. And you think incinerating an entire village causes equal terror?

[greiner3]

9. I also remember this, I think, Newsweek cover;

It shook me about the same as the cover showing the execution by a Vietnamese against a Viet Cong soldier.

As to the title of her book, it also reminded me of the song with the same title;

War - Edwin Starr (Original Vinyl)

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all

War! huh good God
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Ohhh? War! I despise
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
War! It's an enemy to all mankind
The thought of war blows my mind

War has caused unrest in the younger generation
Induction then destruction-
Who wants to die?

Ohhh? War Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Uh-huh Yeah - Huh!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! It's got one friend, that's the undertaker
War has shattered many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to precious to spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life, it can only take it away

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
Peace Love and Understanding;
tell me, is there no place for them today?
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
You tell me
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Stand up and shout it.
Nothing!

[llmart]

36. Love that song.....

it spoke to me in my youth as did so many other anti-war songs of the time, especially Marvin Gaye's music.

[hfojvt]

10. to me

that little boy's face conveys quite a bit of horror as well, although he apparently did not suffer any burns ... (as I struggle not to type something else, and win!!!)

[Recursion]

11. Amazing (nt)

[Are_grits_groceries]

20. "The Napalm Girl"

That's all I had to read and that photo appeared in my mind along with many others.
Glad she found happiness!

[jwirr]

22. Her's is an image I will never forget and I credit her with being one of the biggest reasons we

ended that stupid war. I am glad to see that she is safe and sound now.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Oh god, what a tragic, heartbreaking story!

This brought tears to my eyes. I am so happy to see that she is alive, well and thriving today.

[azurnoir]

27. Thank you I remember that picture vividly

I have wondered what became of her after the photo was snapped, I'm glad to see she found some peace and happiness

[narnian60]

30. Second picture-so beautiful.

[arely staircase]

32. i have never been able to look at that photo without wanting to cry eom

[XVI_Eyes]

40. Happy ending to a sad story.

Glad she joined team Canada!