Million Fag March today in Topeka - pictures

[proud2BlibKansan]

This is an annual event that started 5 or 6 years ago. It's held at a park just a couple blocks from the Westboro Baptist Church. I was very impressed with the turnout (a couple hundred) and the enthusiastic crowd.














Went by to check out the rainbow house across from WBC. Someone bought this house and painted it in rainbow colors. And yes, it really is right across the street, less than spitting distance actually.




And their neighbors:

[ISW]

1. The WBC is NOT religion!

[Fuddnik]

2. More like a disease.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. Unfortunately, yes, it is. Religion is all about division and strife.

It's all about shunning relatives who don't agree with
you. It's about telling those who don't go to your church that they are going to hell.

Family Values and Jesus:

MARK
Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him. 3:31-34

.Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) 7: 9-10

.Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. 10:29-30

..There is no sex or marriage in heaven. 12:18-25

.In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17


Luke


.When Jesus' parents begin the long trip back to Nazareth, the twelve year old Jesus stays behind, without even asking for their permission. Mary and Joseph search for him for three days and when they finally find him, Jesus doesn't apologize. Rather, he blames them for not knowing that he was doing his real father's business. 2:43-49

..Peter, James, and John leave everything (including their families) to follow Jesus. (See 4:38 for reference to Peter's wife.) 5:11

.Jesus, when told that his mother and brothers want to see him, ignores and insults them by saying that his mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it. 8:20-21

.Jesus won't even let his followers bury their dead parents or say farewell to their families before abandoning them. 9:59-62

..Jesus insults his mother (the Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mary). 11:27-28

..Jesus prophesies that families will be divided because of him and his teachings. Sadly, this is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. 12:52-53

..Jesus says that his disciples must hate their families (mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children) and themselves. 14:26

.If you want to be a disciple of Jesus, you must abandon everything, including your family. 14:33

..Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 18:29-30

..Jesus says that everyone in heaven is single. Does that mean that married people can't go there, that they must get a divorce once they arrive, or what? 20:27-35

.."Ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks."
Families and friendships will be torn apart because of Jesus. 21:16
==== ====



John


..As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

..Jesus tells his family that he wasn't going to the feast, but later goes "in secret." 7:8-10
----------------

There's more. I did not put in the family values of the Gospel of Matthew.

[cali]

15. that's cute and selective

sorry, but what you're engaging in- contempt and *dislike* (used because I'd get alerted for using the more appropriate word) for everything and everyone who's a Christian, is not a liberal value

I'm not religious, but I have great admiration for Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin and quite a few others.

[cordelia]

21. And tedious.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

22. I'm quoting the bible directly.

I did not say all Christians are bad.

I am quoting their scriptures that they use for a moral guide.

I did not put any interpretation on it.

You wanna back up now?

[cali]

23. so the fuck what, hon?

I didn't say you weren't quoting the bible. I said you were being selective.

And grab a fucking clue: Different denominations stress different parts of the scripture.

Back up? Fuck no. I want to heap additional scorn on your disingenuous crap.

[CBGLuthier]

24. No you are not quoting the bible without ionterpretation

Everything you "wrote" was an interpretation and not a quote from the bible. You would probably know that if you actually wrote what you posted instead of just copying it from some other website.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/nt_list.html

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. Oh really! Everything I wrote was DIRECT QUOTES.

What don't you understand about English?

If I wrote what I posted, I would still be copying it out of the bible, because it's a direct quote. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[fishwax]

26. none of them are direct quotes

At least, not of the bible. They are direct quotes from the Skeptics Annotated Bible website, but that isn't exactly the same thing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. Please show me.

So you're saying the SAB website is NOT direct quotes?
Please give me a side by side comparison.

[fishwax]

32. No, SAB is not direct quotes

For example, Mark 10:29-30

A direct quote:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10%3A29-30&version=NIV

New International Version (NIV)

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

Compared to the SAB paraphrase/interpretation, which you quoted in your OP:

Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. 10:29-30

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. Please explain how the direct quote means something different.

So tell me how the direct quote does NOT mean "Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families".

I want to know.

Please.

[fishwax]

34. I didn't claim the interpretation was a bad one. I just pointed out it wasn't a quote

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. So what's your point?

How would you interpret the actual verses?

Would you say it does not mean what the paraphrase does?

Please, I want to know.

[fishwax]

36. my point, as I've said, is that you were not actually quoting the bible

Sorry, but I don't have much interest in debating the accuracy of the paraphrase. I don't really care either way. Maybe the paraphrases are accurate, and certainly the bible contains some weird/questionable stuff. But misrepresenting paraphrases as direct quotes doesn't help one's case.

[okasha]

39. It's really not that difficult.

A direct quote reproduces the exact words you're quoting. A paraphrase is putting a reference in your own words, which is what you're doing here. You're also ignoring context and providing an interpretation with your paraphrase, and at least some of your paraphrases severely distort the text.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

40. Then explain it to me.

How does that not mean "Jesus rewards those who abandon their families"???

I'm waiting.

[okasha]

42. If you had read the text

instead of parroting someone else's interpretation, you would have noticed that Jesus says that those who leave their families for his cause will receive them back in better condition than when they left («a hundredfold.») The separation spoken of here is temporary. Abandonment, on the other hand, generally implies neglect and permanent separation.

Now you know.

You're welcome.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. How do you know that it's temporary? Did Jesus give a time limit on this?

[okasha]

49. Read the actual direct quote in post #32.

nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

50. Where do you get the idea that it's temporary?

[okasha]

55. Read the actual direct quote in post #32

nt

[Lady Freedom Returns]

37. Quotes yes, but there is more to it.

You can take parts of the bible, but the true message is lost if you just use little bits.


That is , sadly, what group like this does and why people get so mad at these types of ""churches"" like the WBC. It is something that you have to read and study in full. The history, the reasons of the time of the stories, the lessons in full.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. So the full message is:

Sometimes God is nice; sometimes God is a murderous, psychotic bastard who does things for no reason.

Sometimes Jesus is nice; sometimes Jesus is cruel and arbitrary and mean.

So if you take the bible as a whole, is this the message???

That's what it looks like to me. Absolutely inconsistent.

Because I would like to know what those who defend the bible have to say.

[dawg]

45. I ordinarily love your posts, but you really are being selective and slanted with this one.

You have an animus towards Christianity, and it shows. And while I can certainly understand people being frustrated beyond end with Christians and their hypocrisy, you would be better served by trying to understand these scriptures in their context.

In this day and age, life is just easier for Christians. Non-Christians are unfairly viewed as less moral, untrustworthy, etc. You know the drill.

When Jesus was walking around Palestine, teaching his disciples, the opposite was true. They were considered rebellious, outside of the mainstream religious thinking, and even blasphemous. Saying you were going to follow Christ's teachings cost you - it cost you big time. Your father might disinherit you. Your wife might leave you. Your boss might fire you.

Jesus said that standing up for the truth was more important that those things. And he promised that all the things his followers lost because they followed him would be returned, and more so, in blessings in the future.

Every line mentioned in your post has been interpreted in the most slanted manner possible. Some of those are actually instances of Jesus making proclamations that were incredibly progressive, especially for 2000 years ago.

Believe your own interpretations of those scriptures if that makes you happy. But the reality is that they are a lot more nuanced that you are making them out to be.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Then tell me what I said that was wrong. I'd like to know.

Since sometimes Jesus was nice, and sometimes he was incredibly cruel, what am I to take away from that inconsistency???

Should I ignore the mean stuff he said? What do you mean about context or nuance when some of what he says is plainly mean and hateful??

You have stated generalities. Look up "glittering generalities" as a propaganda device.

What specifics do you have to offer??

[dawg]

47. The things you take as being incredibly cruel just aren't.

I already explained the thing about leaving family members. He wasn't saying that leaving family members is a good thing, and that everyone should do it. He was saying that you shouldn't let other people get in the way of your true beliefs.

As for disrespecting his family, he was actually making the point that his ministry applied to everyone, and that his biological family was no more important than his other followers. He wasn't like an earthly authority figure who demanded respect according to lines of inheritance. This was a merit based ministry, and everyone who sought to do God's will had the same standing as his mother and brothers. This wasn't disrespecting them, it was respecting everyone else.

Jesus used rhetoric, and he used it just like people do today. Sometimes that involves saying things in a shocking manner in order to get people's attention.

The part mentioned about everyone being single in heaven is a great example of a very progressive pronouncement from Jesus. Questioners were trying to trick Jesus with a question about a woman who was widowed multiple times, and passed down from brother to brother as was the Old Testament tradition. Who would have (essentially own) her in the afterlife?

No one, would. She's a person all on her own, and none of her husband's will "have" her in the afterlife. An amazingly progressive notion for 2000 years ago. But you single it out as a cruel statement.

All of these statements are nuanced and you are simply reading them wrong. Because you want to read them wrong.

One man believed that God wanted him to follow Jesus and, be like a missionary, I guess. But he wouldn't go because he wanted to say and bury his father. It sounds cruel that Jesus wouldn't let him do this. Except for the fact that most scholars believe that the dude's father was still alive and not necessarily even in bad health. In this instance, the guy believed that he should go with Jesus, but he was grasping at an excuse to do the easy, safe thing. Once his Dad was buried, and probably inheritance matters settled, then he would go and serve his fellow man. Because make no mistake - this was about serving others and not the self. You may argue that they were wrong, and just selling snake oil to the masses. But they were doing so because they really believed it and thought it was essential that this new way of looking at God be promoted.

It's wrong to put off service to others because it might inconvenience you. That is the heart of these messages that you find so cruel

I can give you the nuance for each and every one of the scriptures you put up. Old Testament stuff, maybe not so much. But unless you are willing to look at the teachings of Jesus again, with an open mind, I'll just be wasting pixels.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. "Let the dead bury the dead" ???

Oh so dead people magically bury themselves?? Since when???

Luke 14:26

Matthew 10:21

Matthew 10:35-36


Yeah, you've done a good job of dodging the plain meaning of these verses telling people to hate their families and abandon them. Christian apologetics are pathetic.


We have a whole lot more evidence that Julius Caesar existed than that Jesus existed. Julius Caesar wrote things and contemporary historians write about him: Marcus Tullius Cicero, Sallust, Nepos, Catullus, Virgil, Publius Ovidius Naso (Ovid), Paterculus, Lucan, Plutarch, Appian, Suetonius. Julius Caesar wrote books about war which are still extant e Bello Gallico and De Bello Civilli.


Yet every purported evidence for Jesus turns out to be dubious or non-existent. This includes no contemporary record of Jesus; no evidence for Nazareth in the 1st century; tampered works of non-Christian writers to insert 'evidence'; testimony of early Christians who didn't believe in a human Jesus anyway; gospels which flatly contradict each other; myriad instances of 'Jesus stories' copied from earlier legends and other cultures; and so on and so on.

[dawg]

57. Let the dead bury the dead.

Again, you're taking figurative language literally. But your interpretation is "dead" wrong.

People who spend their whole lives waiting for the perfect time to do something meaningful with their lives are spiritually dead. They aren't actually dead, but they might as well be.

This young man believed in Jesus' ministry, and thought that he ought to join up and go help teach others, but only at a time that was convenient. He needed to hang around in his hometown until his father passed away, and then wait some more until all the relevant matters were settled, and maybe then he would do something important with his life. So long as something else didn't make him wait yet again. Jesus had this guy's number. (And the guy, unfortunately, was a lot like me. Putting things off for too long.)

Do you really think Jesus thought dead people could bury dead people? No, of course not. People use all sorts of rhetorical devices when they talk, and Jesus especially loved doing this sort of thing. He liked to be *shocking* because he was trying to upset people and make them think about what was really important.

Jesus did not teach that people should hate their families. But he taught that even the most precious people in your lives should not get in the way of you doing the right thing.

Of course Jesus wanted us to love our families. But, even going beyond that, he taught us that we should also love our enemies. Jesus prayed for the very people who were putting him to death, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

There are lots of confusing things in the Bible - things that can be interpreted and construed in a number of different ways. People can use whatever bias they have to make all sorts of conflicting points. But the primary thrust of Jesus' teachings was to love God and to love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. If you do those two things, you'll automatically get everything else right.

Of course, I'm emotionally invested in this, but you seem like you might be a little bit invested too. You kind of *want* to believe the worst about the teachings of Jesus. But your literalist interpretations of what he was saying simply aren't accurate. There is much more nuance to the teachings than that. Jesus used a bunch of shocking symbolic, language; making very good points about how we should live our lives.

Now if you want to discuss how sorry the actual Christians have been ... well, I'm with you there. But those red letter words in the Bible are actually very deep, intelligent, thought-provoking, and instructive.

[hrmjustin]

48. Very selective and out of context.

[enjoyingyourpeasyet]

18. The US Government and IRS and State of KS ALL Agree that WBC is a legal and protected Christian

Religion in the United States of America.

In my book they are typical of many, not all of the religious in America and the world. they just have the guts to be in your face and say what they truly believe in.

Religious groups like WBC is why the US Government. IRS and Sates should no longer allow free rides to religious groups, they ALL need to be taxed and treaded just like any other business enterprise in America. If as a business they do legally charitable things they can deduct the expense just like every one else.

[Deep13]

51. They believe in a supernatural god, ego religion. nt

[arcane1]

53. Yep, they are haters, who use religion to launder their hate.

They don't have the guts to say "we hate fags". Instead, they say it's God who hates them, and that they are just letting people know.

It's like the "moral authority" version of someone brandishing a gun when they are losing an argument. They don't win the argument, but the argument ends nonetheless.

This atheist sees right through it.

[markiv]

54. Fred Phelps is a disbarred civil rights lawyer

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

"Phelps took cases on behalf of African-American clients alleging racial discrimination by school systems, and a predominantly black American Legion post which had been raided by police, alleging racially based police abuse.[14] Phelps' law firm obtained settlements for some clients"

DisbarmentA formal complaint was filed against Phelps on November 8, 1977, by the Kansas State Board of Law Examiners for his conduct during a lawsuit against a court reporter named Carolene Brady. Brady had failed to have a court transcript ready for Phelps on the day he asked for it; though it did not affect the outcome of the case for which Phelps had requested the transcript, Phelps still requested $22,000 in damages from her.[17][18] In the ensuing trial, Phelps called Brady to the stand, declared her a hostile witness, and then cross-examined her for nearly a week, during which he accused her of being a "slut", tried to introduce testimony from former boyfriends whom Phelps wanted to subpoena, and accused her of a variety of perverse sexual acts, ultimately reducing her to tears on the stand.[17][18] Phelps lost the case; according to the Kansas Supreme Court:



Phelps does not represent ministers any more than he represents civil rights lawyers

he represents his malevolent mentally ill self

[ReRe]

3. Thank you!

I can't get out much, so I always love to see the pictures. Great posters, enthusiasm and smiles!

[ErikJ]

4. WBC bad for the homophobic GOP-good for Dems

shows how fringe they are now.

[HiPointDem]

5. i've seen rainbow-painted houses before, but that's the first one i remember

that actually looked cute. needs more imaginative landscaping, though.

[pinboy3niner]

7. This is a special house

Rainbow house fights Westboro Baptist with love
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/03/21/rainbow-house-fights-westboro-baptist-with-love/

[pinboy3niner]

6. Great photos p2blib!

I love seeing your pics of your local actions around Kansas. I still remember your photos of the protest when Joe Arpaio came to support Kris Kobach.

K&R

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. That was a huge rally

One of the best.

[gvstn]

8. I hate to be a "bitchy" fag

But some of these million fags could have spent more time on their signs.

The little girls is the best/clearest.

Believe me I am not giving props to Westboro but they have signage/slogans down pat. Bold, simple message. Take a look at the last picture.

My advice: SPLURGE! Buy the stencils, buy the wide markers/paint and have at it. Just make sure your message is visible from the road.

*****

I give props to everyone that made the effort to spend their day at the demonstration. Thank you! I just think that producing a good sign really does help make it work as far as making sure people just driving by get the message and think about what they have just seen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Maybe you can come help them make their signs next year

[Mopar151]

20. You got no art or design students? 4H or scout leaders? Kindergarten teachers?

Hey, , I'm just an old shoprat who's very prejudiced in regard to whatever branch of evolution that Fred Phelps represents. Fight them with heart, soul, and love - they got none to answer with.
A couple tips - Use something like Word to lay out and blow up the letters for a stencil - IIRC, there is even a Stencil typeface to help lay out the cutouts in the letters so the stencil will work. It takes minimal talent to shade/ghetto airbrush spray paints to do rainbows, red/white/blue ,and the like thru the stencil. a contrasting (marker/paint)outline makes the letters "pop". Highlights, shadows,sparkles/stars. and Say No To overlays can be done with a 2nd stencil. Repeat your design, keep it short & simple, mash up your media - get some refrigerator boxes, turn them inside out to get plain faces, and you have a traveling billboard, clown, or mascot. Hey 'Lovebot", what it is ! A heart stencil. a "Love" stencil, maybe a "USA" If somebody can get a long roll of white paper, or a cheap-ass tarp, and some of those giant clothes-pins clamps., you can stencil a huge banner with repeats - You have about 2 seconds to catch an eye, and make somebody smile, or laugh with you. NO TAPE, especially duct tape - don't make anyone clean up after you. if you want to drive a stake, ask, if you move a picnic tabel, move it back.

Our sports car hill-climb series learned a long time ago ('cus we were accidentally nice to someone), that making sure to pick up any piece of trash we see - including parking lot trash left over from last winter, and all the dunnage from the snowmaking equipment that was being delivered ( I did'nt want to cut a race tire ...) makes friends in places high and low. And if you bring waterdrinks or food, share with anyone you can - Jesus fed the multitudes 'cuz it's good PR, and it gets all the important people (venue staff, truck drivers, cops) on your side. Somebody sent the town constable to "keep an eye on us" - we fed him breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and a gallon of coffee over the 3 days, it was like taking in a stray!!!!!

[closeupready]

9. Very nice - K&R - to paraphrase the old axiom, standing up to bullies

makes them look like they are just wearing dentures.

[tex-wyo-dem]

10. Love it!

Love, compassion and tolerance will beat hate and intolerance every time!

[jmowreader]

13. Speaking of that last picture...

How much does it depress property values in the neighborhood, to live next door to Westboro Baptist "Church"?

[wercal]

28. Its hurts of course

First of all, twice in this thread I have seen teh W*stb*ro Church name spelled out completely...which is generally not done by local media covering them. It has something to do with Google searches and not wanting to contribute to their publicity.

So, 'WBC' is used.

On to the property values. If you were to look at the Shawnee County property viewer online, you would see that many of the properties next to the main building are owned by relatives of Fred, who share the same surname...and 'Roper' which is also part of the group. So, there is a pattern of pushing down property values...and offering to buy. And, they are expanding. From the aerial view, you can see sidewalks connecting several of the properties, some athletic courts, and what may be a pool. They have bought up most of their block and have started on the block to the west. And there's even one lot north of their main block.


Here is a link to the property viewer:

http://gis.snco.us/publicgis/ps/

There is a bar near the top left where you can turn the aireal photo on...and if you enter the PID number 0973503030001000 in the blank near the top right, it will take you to their property.

[jmowreader]

29. This should be fairly obvious...

but Fred appears to be constructing a cult compound.

[wercal]

31. I agree

And fishing around on the viewer, I've found two properties to the south of them, with their ownership. And, another large house owned by a seemingly unrelated party has extensive parking, which overflows into a WBC property...so this one, Hockenbarger, is most likely in the group also. All that parking indicates alot of people live there in apartment style living, which is a zoning violation.

Anyway, they seem to have established a beachhead to the south of their block as well.

[xchrom]

16. this thread needs a little Sylvester!

[xchrom]

17. sylvester - you make me feel (mighty real)

[Locut0s]

19. I'm not queer I'm just here for the beer. lol.

[Buns_of_Fire]

30. Interesting that the WBC compound feels the need for an iron fence...

while the Rainbow House obviously doesn't.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

38. The "reason" for it is due to clams that they were bombed.

Back on August 20, 1995 The say that they had a bomb go off, and that is the time the fence went up.The "Kansas Voice" did a story on it.

http://kansasvoice.blogspot.com/2007/06/remembering-details-of-horrible-bombing.html

[liberaltrucker]

41. WBC ZIP code is 66604!

[Deep13]

52. I prefer "Million fabulous person" march.

We should retire the other F word except when discussion cigarettes or sticks.