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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:23 AM

Bloomberg to ban e-bikes

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) - Mayor Michael Bloomberg is expected to sign a new law banning the e-bike, which some say is fast and dangerous.

More here: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/26/mayor-bloomberg-expected-to-sign-e-bike-ban/
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More 1%er hubris from the Emperor of NYC. There were other alternatives than to unilaterally ban electric assisted bicycles.

106 replies, 17341 views

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Arrow 106 replies Author Time Post
Reply Bloomberg to ban e-bikes (Original post)
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 OP
randome Apr 2013 #1
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #4
randome Apr 2013 #9
octothorpe Apr 2013 #30
krispos42 Apr 2013 #36
randome Apr 2013 #46
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #6
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #2
Robb Apr 2013 #5
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #13
hack89 Apr 2013 #42
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #51
hack89 Apr 2013 #60
hack89 Apr 2013 #61
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #65
hack89 Apr 2013 #68
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #71
hack89 Apr 2013 #72
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #75
hack89 Apr 2013 #83
Posteritatis Apr 2013 #8
whistler162 Apr 2013 #91
krispos42 Apr 2013 #40
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #43
krispos42 Apr 2013 #95
Kolesar Apr 2013 #3
Robb Apr 2013 #7
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #11
randome Apr 2013 #14
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #10
Ikonoklast Apr 2013 #50
Post removed Apr 2013 #12
Kolesar Apr 2013 #15
baldguy Apr 2013 #16
randome Apr 2013 #19
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #20
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #28
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #31
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #54
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #56
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #59
DanTex Apr 2013 #53
baldguy Apr 2013 #35
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #55
baldguy Apr 2013 #63
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #64
baldguy Apr 2013 #70
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #88
baldguy Apr 2013 #93
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #101
PoliticAverse Apr 2013 #57
baldguy Apr 2013 #69
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #82
Cal Carpenter Apr 2013 #17
baldguy Apr 2013 #37
Cal Carpenter Apr 2013 #48
MattBaggins Apr 2013 #67
Courtesy Flush Apr 2013 #18
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #22
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #24
HappyMe Apr 2013 #34
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #39
octothorpe Apr 2013 #38
Travis_0004 Apr 2013 #44
randome Apr 2013 #47
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #49
JVS Apr 2013 #21
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #23
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #26
geek tragedy Apr 2013 #29
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #32
sendero Apr 2013 #25
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #27
PoliticAverse Apr 2013 #58
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #33
sendero Apr 2013 #84
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #86
Life Long Dem Apr 2013 #41
smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #45
Newest Reality Apr 2013 #52
sarisataka Apr 2013 #62
pokerfan Apr 2013 #66
bluedigger Apr 2013 #73
Union Scribe Apr 2013 #74
beevul Apr 2013 #80
Jamastiene Apr 2013 #76
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #77
Deep13 Apr 2013 #78
bunnies Apr 2013 #79
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #81
bunnies Apr 2013 #85
Robb Apr 2013 #87
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #89
Robb Apr 2013 #90
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #97
Robb Apr 2013 #98
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #100
Robb Apr 2013 #102
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #103
Robb Apr 2013 #104
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #105
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #92
markpkessinger Apr 2013 #94
ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #99
NYC Liberal Apr 2013 #96
Fumesucker Apr 2013 #106

Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:26 AM

1. Like what alternatives?

 

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Response to randome (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:28 AM

4. Law enforcement

Many older people cannot ride more than around the park on a bike under their own power. Ebikes (and they are not all the behemoth pictured) provide alternatives for them.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:31 AM

9. Restricting e-bikes to parks, then? That might be an alternative.

 

Or unicycles. Unicycles are cool!

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Response to randome (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:03 PM

30. lol

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Response to randome (Reply #9)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:14 PM

36. How about a gyroscopically-stabilized electric unicycle?



http://www.earthtechling.com/2012/11/sbu-v3-is-the-electric-unicycle-of-your-dreams/



self-homing, gyroscopically-stabilized electric bowling pins not included.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #36)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:31 PM

46. But I bet an enterprising engineer could MAKE those kind of bowling pins!

 

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Response to randome (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:30 AM

6. Allow something that causes far less pollution or danger than cars?

I have an ebike myself, it gets a calculated 1686 mpge according to the EPA formula for electric vehicles.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:27 AM

2. I was under the impression that they're not legal in NYC in the first place

Also I have a hard time understanding how a bicycle, electric or otherwise, is more dangerous than an automobile.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:29 AM

5. E-bikes are pretty heavy

and fit on the sidewalk and through narrow openings. I can see a city being unprepared for them if it already has poor bike-centric infrastructure.

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Response to Robb (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:35 AM

13. They can be not much heavier than an ordinary bike

Indeed, they can be lighter than regular bikes, depending on what you start with.

For instance, where is the weight on this bike?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:25 PM

42. The battery and motor add 20 to 40 pounds to the bike.

they range in weight between 50 and 70 pounds.

http://www.nycewheels.com/electric-bike-weight.html

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Response to hack89 (Reply #42)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:49 PM

51. Odd, my battery weighs six pounds and my motor weighs eight

Throttle and controller weigh around a pound together.

That gives me around 25 mile range at about 18 mph on the flat.

You wouldn't be impressed if someone who had never even seen a gun were to look up some random website about guns and used that to support an argument here, you aren't impressing me.








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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:23 PM

60. Why do you have to make it personal?

you asked a questioned, I was curious, and I shared what I found with you.

That's it. It was not an attack on you.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #51)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:29 PM

61. Here is an electric mountain bike that weighs 68 pounds

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Response to hack89 (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:20 PM

65. Have you ever actually *seen* an ebike in the flesh?

Have you ever ridden one?

Why are you presuming to tell someone who builds and rides the damn things about ebikes?

I've been posting on DU about ebikes for years, here's a post of mine from 2009 about a 45 lb ebike with extremely high performance, could easily be ten pounds lighter with less performance, ie 35 lbs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6699545

Bikes are unlike most consumer products in that lighter is more expensive, commercial ebikes almost always start with a bike that would be overweight even without the electric power and then add the cheapest Chinese electric junk they can find (heavy in other words).

This aluminum framed Mongoose Blackcomb pedal only mountain bike weighs 46 lbs.. No batteries, no motor.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:35 PM

68. So there is a wide range of bikes with a wide range of weights.

is this something to fight over?

I never said I supported the ban. I never said I don't support ebikes. I merely answered a fucking question and for some reason you have decided to take it personally.

Bye.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #68)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:45 PM

71. Now you know how non-gunners feel when you get all picky about gun terminology

I know that terminology pretty well myself but I watch the gun enthusiasts get all over people for saying ignorant things.

The way this conversation started was Robb talking about how heavy ebikes were, I demurred and said they did not have to be that heavy and then you disagreed and posted a bunch of crap ebikes and certainly implied that was all there was.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #71)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:49 PM

72. They don't have to be heavy but some are heavy

so Robb was right in that regard.

When I start advocating to ban ebikes is when you can bring up guns.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #72)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:01 PM

75. The point being that you were arguing about something of which you have *zero* knowledge

You've never even seen one in the flesh or you would have said so.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:49 PM

83. ok. nt



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:31 AM

8. Pretty much any new vehicle will get immediately banned these days

Anything new like that these days gets swamped under by people who decided that if the possibility of someone getting injured in some way involving them is less than 0.000 percent, they're Too Dangerous And Must Be Forbidden.

Think Segways; within days of their initial announcement cities were talking about forbidding them, and there was a huge craze of passing laws banning them the moment someone somewhere first managed to fall off of one.

If bicycles were only invented last week in this society, they'd be illegal by the end of May.

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #8)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:52 PM

91. Just a renamed and redesigned moped!

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:20 PM

40. I think it's a matter of quanitity

The ebikes mean that anybody, even those that aren't physically fit enough to ride a regular bike at fast speeds for long distances, can now ride along at fast speeds for long distances. I'm one of them, for example. I don't ride, so anything more than a few minutes makes my muscles ache because I'm not used to doing that strenuous motion.

So you'd have both the human-powered bikes, plus the addition of electric bikes. Now, this might ease vehicular traffic a little, but you also know that people on bike tend to play by a different set of traffic laws, regardless of theory. So you'd probably get an increase in accidents involving bikes of all sorts.

Now, in bike versus car, car wins. In bike versus pedestrian, bike wins. So you'd have more injuries, especially the expensive and devastating skull, neck and spine kind.



Technically, they're motor vehicles, I would think.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #40)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:29 PM

43. Federal law defines ebikes under 750 watts (one horsepower) as "bicycles"

Manufacturers can't legally sell an ebike over 750 watts in the US and very few of the available ebikes actually are that powerful, the great majority are cheap Chinese junk that are under 500 watts and have a hard time going over 20 mph. Anything over 750 watts is considered a motorcycle for licensing purposes.

The batteries alone for a more than 750 watt bike are going to cost more than most of the "ebikes" sold out there.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #43)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:57 PM

95. Ah, okay.

Thank you. I was not aware of that.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:27 AM

3. More fake outrage...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:30 AM

7. How dare the mayor sign a law passed by city council!!!

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:33 AM

11. See this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112742300#post2

Right now the only vehicle I could probably mange would be an e-trike.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #11)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:35 AM

14. I'd say you certainly got the last word in there!

 

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:32 AM

10. Classic authoritarianism from Bloomberg.

Why does New York keep electing these assclowns?

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:45 PM

50. City council passed the legislation because of citizen complaints.

Bloomberg signed it. He isn't a dictator ruling by fiat.

These are unregistered motor vehicles, and as operators of a motorized vehicle they needed to abide by traffic laws.

They weren't doing so, and they'll suffer the consequences.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:41 AM

15. I'd say you certainly got the last word in there!

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:46 AM

16. Posts that prove the Perfesser wrong usually don't get any replies.

 

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #15)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:51 AM

19. Ha! We can both be right, right?

 

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Response to Post removed (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:53 AM

20. Bloomberg justifies anything he wants, often with astroturf

You are supporting the actions of one of the most high handed 1%ers out there and his local devout worshiper. You support his food bans as well?

It is possible to regulate e-bikes and more importantly crackdown on the worst of the delivery crowd who are the real source of the problem. Instead Bloomie's answer is to ban a clean tech with some good promise.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:01 PM

28. So now you're doubling down with a conspiracy theory.

 

I like how people who don't live in New York lecture us on how people here really feel.

P.S. this is closing a loophole

http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/10/why-are-electric-bikes-illegal-anyway/

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:05 PM

31. Saying that Bloomberg rules by hubirs is not a conspiracy theory

I have lived in NYC...and dropped a few idiot messengers while there.

I am aware of the mismatch in classification. NY needs to follow the Federal lead.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:04 PM

54. So he manufactured the complaints of ebikes? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #54)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:09 PM

56. And has done little to crackdown on the manics while

declaring larges sodas a major health hazard.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #54)


Response to geek tragedy (Reply #28)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:58 PM

53. That's the most interesting thing. People who don't live in NYC, and hate everything it stands for

always seem to complain the loudest about what the elected government there does.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #20)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:13 PM

35. Then your problem should be with the state of New York, not Bloomberg.

 

The city needs to work withing state law, which only allows municipalities to say where certain vehicles go. To regulate them as you suggest, the state would need create a new class of vehicle.

You need to stop whining about Bloomberg just because he's on the right side of the gun control issue. He's using his wealth to help create a better city, country & world. That's what the wealthy are supposed to do!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:08 PM

55. Bloomie is a 1%er whose hubris knows no bounds

I am far from the only person here who dislikes him and his sycophants immensely.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #55)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:53 PM

63. Yeah, there are a lot of people who don't like Bloomberg. They're mostly Republicans.

 

Which explains your issues with him.

The irrational RW hatred of Michael Bloomberg reminds of nothing as much as the irrational RW hatred of Jane Fonda. They remind everyone that she's "Hanoi Jane", and treat every sound she makes as utterances directly from Satan, and they boycott the local multiplex because it made the mistake of showing a Jane Fonda movie once 30 yrs ago.

Well, you can rest assured that this time next year, NYC will have a new Mayor. Maybe your wish will come true and it'll be another Ghouliani-wannabe GOPer.

But Bloomberg's money isn't going away, so the push to enact real gun control that the majority of Americans want isn't going away either.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #63)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:07 PM

64. I don't think any supporter of OWS or related efforts think much of him either

Nor are they repukes.

Bloomie is indeed repuke 1%er, who knows what is best for all the rest of us. That you are supporting him, because he is on your side on this issue, speaks volumes. You might want to see what he has said about BSL...

I agree with more gun control in a large number of areas, including UBCs, training, storage, and others. I will support those as being meaningful and effective. DiFi's AWB not so much.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #64)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:42 PM

70. Yeah, right. You "support" gun control. But you attack every Democrat who tris to pass it.

 

That's the best joke I've heard all day.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #70)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:25 PM

88. Far from it.

I support all of the President's previously announced executive actions, including checks on all transfers, better data collection, and increased enforcement of existing laws (though Biden has disclaimed the latter). I support some things he should have included, like safe storage requirements.

NICS checks or equivalent on all transactions, even private party transaction, inheritance, and gifts. My approach would be a Federal FOID that you would automatically get at 18yo so they are not a "firearms ownership licenses", a common objection to that approach. The check is then if the FOID is still valid for the sale to proceed. This is easy from the IT perspective. Note the NRA rejects the FOID approach.

In terms of hardware, I think that handgun magazines should be limited to what fits in the grip. For those rare handgun designs with the magazine elsewhere, the historic magazines (for old designs) and 10 otherwise sound reasonable. I also support mandatory training for owners, mandatory safety training for children and waiting periods with some reservations. Require that new designs not support magazines that extend beneath the handle (BATF already has authority to force design changes). This is readily demonstrated by the Ruger line of .22LR handguns and the Astra 400/600. Grandfather or buy back at retail price non-conforming magazines. Note that the NRA has rejected magazine limitations

I do not support cosmetic feature bans, bans of semi autos, and the like. I could support future manufacturing bans of magazines larger than those supplied by the manufacturer or generally available in the case of generic magazines. That should take care of the 100 round magazines and other useless bling that gets things spun up.

I do not support the reopening of the roster to allow additional machine guns in private hands. I think suppressors should be handled as they are in Europe...safety equipment.

All firearms must be secured when not in use, being cleaned, transported, etc. While California got stupid on parts of this, its the right thing to do. Some will miss their old time glass front display cases or wall rack, but proper security is a must. Would consider an exemption for non-functional devices. I believe the NRA has fought mandatory safes. It adds costs to gun ownership, but this has to be done.

Mandatory reporting of theft or loss. This is a no brainer. A number of pro gun people say they will report theirs missing to avoid registration etc. That should be felony country.

Enforce the existing Federal laws about false paperwork by purchasers. Bloomie and I even agree on this one

Somethings I have mixed feelings about/no definitive solution

Mandatory owner training. It is not required to exercise any other enumerated right, but I have seen some very scary stuff over the years. Not sure what the standards should be, but I come down on the side of some training being required. The NRA has fought this.

Mandatory safety training for children. Enough for them to overcome their natural curiosity and get an adult should they find an unsecured firearm. While some would find that more offensive than the fundies find sex ed, until things change, its basic safety and needs to be done. Not sure the best way, but it is clearly called for. NRA has not taken a stand on this but does offer such classes. I don't see it as a talking point.

Waiting periods. For someone who already has firearms, not sure what purpose they serve. For first time owners I support them. Overall I think they are a good idea. Not sure what the right time length should be. 1 week seems good. There are reports that Lanza tried to buy a rifle but was stopped by the mandated waiting period (if the media reports are to be believed). NRA opposes waiting periods

Better mental health reporting and supervision. Seen a number of posts on that here. Clearly something is called for, but how to do it is not clear. Loughner never should have been allowed to have a gun. Also we cannot and should not demonize the mentally ill and the people who serve them as some have done. The NRA has fought additional reporting of some types of problems yet is trying to blame the "crazies". Go figure

===============================================
That's my current working list. Those will address some of the concerns. Clearly it is not enough based on your prior posts, but its a fair start.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #88)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:12 PM

93. Thank you for proving your dishonesty.

 

With your reply you prove that this thread that you created has nothing to do with e-bikes, and everything to do with your irrational animosity for Michael Bloomberg - one of the most powerful & effective voices for real gun control.

And the fact that you're being so magnanimous to offer "support" for some of the stuff we already have, are critical of others, and just ignore some things which are absolutely necessary (like national licensing & registration, or keeping the ban on the insanity of CCW reciprocity in place), and the fact that your still find it necessary to attack anyone & everyone who actually supports REAL gun control, that so-called "support" is highly suspect.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #93)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:48 PM

101. So if someone doesn't support your exact agenda they don't support "REAL gun control"

I started this thread because I think e-bikes are an important tech that can and will lead to fewer cars. Had it been mayor of LA or DC or Fargo, I would have said the same thing.

Bloomie is currently buying himself demigod status with some over his gun control moves. You still might want to consider all of his positions including one of your pet rocks, BSL for dogs. While he may be on your side on one issue, the majority of his positions are repugnant to most of us. If you want to sell your integrity that cheaply go ahead.

What I support is not currently national policy nor is it policy in most states. Its a moderate compared to some, but more importantly they are effective things that can be agreed to and be implemented.

Your confiscatory approach and incessant personal attacks are not going to help in any way in any venue. Keep them up and you will keep losing on the gun control front and hurt the party in the long run. Take smaller, more effective steps and things could get better.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #12)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:10 PM

57. Electric bicycles are NOT 'currently unregulated in the state of New York'.

http://www.dmv.ny.gov/recreation.htm#motor
Motorized Scooters, Mini-Bikes, Dirt Bikes, Go-Karts, Motor Assisted Bicycles

You cannot register any of the motorized devices from the list below in NYS. You cannot operate these devices on sidewalks, public streets or highways in NYS. These devices are motor vehicles, but they do not have the correct equipment or design for operation on roadways.

...

Motor-assisted Bicycle - a bicycle to which a small motor is attached. A motor-assisted bicycle does not qualify for a registration as a motorcycle, moped or ATV and does not have the same equipment.

These devices are not allowed on any street, highway, parking lot, sidewalk or other area that allows public motor vehicle traffic. You are subject to arrest if you operate one of these motorized vehicles and do not have a registration, driver license, inspection, insurance or correct equipment. The DMV can not provide any information about operation of these devices on private property. Contact the local authorities and property owners.


The issues is for 'low-speed electric bicycles' this conflicts with Federal Law which supersedes State Law:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ319/html/PLAW-107publ319.htm



``(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric
bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable
pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a
motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20
mph.

...

(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with
respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law
or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements
referred to in subsection (a).''.




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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:39 PM

69. NYS law treats electric powered bicycles as bicycles. Those regs only apply to gas powered bicycles.

 

And another issues is that as long as the motor isn't actually powering the bike, it's not a powered bicycle. It's a grey area that the NY Legislature hasn't got around to fixing. (The Assembly & Senate have both passed the required bills regulating these things, but the standard political dysfunctional stupidity has prevented getting the conference bill together to get it signed by the Governor.)

That's the problem the NY City Council is trying to address. It's got nothing to do with the RW hysteria that the Mayor wants to be a dictator; it's the govt of NYC trying to address an issue that is adversely affecting residents, which Albany has been dragging it's feet on.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #57)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:36 PM

82. Those rules apply to manufacturers, not individuals

That means an ebike that meets those specifications can be legally sold in the US as a bicycle and not a motorized vehicle. The states are free to set their own rules as to what is allowed on the street and the laws vary widely in that respect.


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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:49 AM

17. Why not enforce traffic laws

and bust people who drive these bikes unsafely or illegally (too fast, against traffic, etc)?

I suppose his army of cops is too busy stop-and-frisking innocent black men.

Fuck Bloomberg.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #17)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:15 PM

37. And when they start doing that you'll whine about the fascist NYC cops harrassing cyclists.

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #37)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:34 PM

48. You have strange and inaccurate predictive skills n/t

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:33 PM

67. I don't know. I would imagine he is spot on.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:51 AM

18. Apparently it's not the bikes themselves

It's poor law enforcement.

“And residents have complained that when they deliver food, they take off, they go high speeds, they go against traffic, they go on sidewalks,” Councilman James Vacca said. “They’re a danger to pedestrians.


The same could be said for any motorist -- or even pedestrian -- who acts recklessly.

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Response to Courtesy Flush (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:55 AM

22. Sounds like a typical NY cabbie

The most dangerous place in NYC is between a cabbie and a fare.

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Response to Courtesy Flush (Reply #18)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:57 AM

24. How many motorists or pedestrians are on sidewalks going 30 mph?

 

Also, good luck hiring the 500k police it would take to monitor the delivery guys on their bikes.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:09 PM

34. What? You can't walk 30mph?


Sidewalks in NYC are crowded enough without adding bikes that can do 30+ mph.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #34)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:18 PM

39. 30 mph ebikes are rare and almost always custom made, usually by the owner

Production ebikes that you can buy are really no faster than a strong rider can pedal and often not even that fast.

I'm sixtysomething and can reach 25 + mph in spurts on the level on a decent pedal bike, I just don't have the aerobic fitness any more to maintain that speed for more than a minute or so.

Bikes, pedal or electric aren't supposed to be on sidewalks in the first place, a bike is a vehicle and is subject to the same laws as a car while in operation.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:16 PM

38. Couldn't we say that about any law though?

"Why have speed limits at all? Good luck hiring all the police needed to monitor millions of cars on the road"

Most of us try not to speed (usually, I think), because want to be safe and because we don't want to risk the chance that a police officer will see us. Seems like the principle would be the same here, no? Full on banning seems silly for such a useful vehicle. Make people take a class or test before they could use them too.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:30 PM

44. Bikes shouldn't be on the sidewalk

 

Whats the problem with an electric bike doing 30 mph on the roadway? I ride a bike, and I hit 30 miles per hour just about every trip out. As long as they are on the roads, I see nothing wrong with it.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:34 PM

47. Maybe because the messenger services use them?

 

Some destinations are set back from the street so the impetus is to get as close to the destination as possible before unmounting.

And finding a parking spot on the street must be tough, I'd think.

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Response to Travis_0004 (Reply #44)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:45 PM

49. They're parked on sidewalks. nt

 

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:55 AM

21. Bookmarked so I can come back and read the testimonial about nearly getting killed by an ebike...

and how smart and wise Bloomberg is to do this.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:56 AM

23. Not the biggest Bloomberg fan, but it's hardly the act of an emperor

 

to sign a bill passed by the city's legislature.

Also, libertarianism works a lot better in places like Montana than it does in NYC.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #23)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:58 AM

26. When was the last time Bloomie wanted something and did not get it?



Is expecting Bloomie's private army to actually enforce laws that impact public safety too much to ask?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #26)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:02 PM

29. Which borough do you live in? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #29)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:06 PM

32. I used to live in NYC

Got out when my wife was reassigned. It was some time ago.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:57 AM

25. There is a simple solution..

.... to this. If you want to drive one of these you need a license, same one you'd need to drive a moped or motorcycle.

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Response to sendero (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:59 AM

27. There are some Federal laws that NY needs to align with

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #27)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:12 PM

58. Which specifically supersedes State law...

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ319/html/PLAW-107publ319.htm


``low-speed electric bicycles

``Sec. 38. <<NOTE: 15 USC 2085.>> (a) Notwithstanding any other
provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products
within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the
Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512
of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.

``(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric
bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable
pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a
motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20
mph.
``(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed
electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended
requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
``(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with
respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law
or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements
referred to in subsection (a).''.

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Response to sendero (Reply #25)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:06 PM

33. I have an ebike I built myself

Peak speed is actually *slower* than when it was pedal only, the motor gives enough drag going down steep hills that it slows the bike down from what it would do otherwise.

What the electric power really helps with is keeping from slowing to a dead crawl up steep hills, at sixty something I don't have the energy I used to.

This is my setup in its current configuration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11282343


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #33)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:58 PM

84. I understand...

.. but there are several levels of engines for these things. The first ones were made with 30cc weed eater / chainsaw engines. Those won't go very fast. But they are making some bigger ones now.

I suppose there could be an engine threshold for licensing.

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Response to sendero (Reply #84)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:34 PM

86. There is a threshold, one horsepower or 750 watts for electric

50cc for gas.

Varies some from state to state but that's pretty common, some states like NY don't allow any unlicensed motorized vehicles.

Even in Europe where they are much more restrictive 200 or 250 watt ebikes are license free and don't have to be registered.

250 watts is about double what an average out of shape rider can do for a longish period, say half an hour but human power limits are kind of strange, that same out of shape person could probably do close to 750 watts or one horsepower for a few moments to maybe a minute or two. It takes roughly 400 watts to go 20 mph on the straight and level on a decent upright bike but the power demands go up sharply with speed after that.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:23 PM

41. Don't they have traffic laws?

 

Like no riding bikes on the sidewalk and no speeding, and obeying the rules of the road as any motorist would do. Instead of banning them because they make no noise, how about having them make noise?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:30 PM

45. He's at it again, isn't he?

I am kind of glad I have moved from there. He just won't stop trying to manage people's lives.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:51 PM

52. That's one,

non-stop sack of Emperor you have there.

Autocratic, oligarchical, plutocratic meritocra-al-a-docious!

It has to be nice to be able to get whatever you want.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:33 PM

62. Hmmm....

an affordable, eco-friendly means of transportation. Similar to what NY bike messengers, stereotyped as modern kamikaze, have used for years.

Residents complained; do human powered bike get complaints...
It might encourage people to travel on their own rather than taxi or public transit...

license it...no
enforce traffic laws... oops, didn't mean to say that
regulate their speed, only allow models with a limited top speed... no, not good enough

*BAN IT!!*

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:21 PM

66. From the link

“(E-bikes) also have very quiet motors. So, you don’t always hear them coming.”

You don't hear bicycles either.

“And residents have complained that when they deliver food, they take off, they go high speeds, they go against traffic, they go on sidewalks. They’re a danger to pedestrians.”

E-bikes don't do these things. Bad riders do. Is Bloomberg saying that NYC doesn't have laws against speeding, driving the wrong way or driving on sidewalks.

So much stupid in this law.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:24 PM

73. It's nice that the gunners have found a non-gun topic they can respond to finally.

I guess uniting in their hatred of all things Bloomberg gives them some cover for their single minded posting focus at last.

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Response to bluedigger (Reply #73)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:37 PM

74. Actually it looks like the other way around

where people who agree with Bloomberg on one issue make excuses for him. Or are you a fan of moving to shutter libraries, stop and frisk minorities, oppose unions, fund education deform, and his idea that the Constitution should be re-interpreted after the Boston bombing?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #74)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:24 PM

80. Ouch. N/T

 

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:10 PM

76. *Rolls eyes at Bloomberg, again*

He's such an asshole. Hasn't he ever heard of poker cards in the spokes to make noise on a bike? Just ask that they use those cards in the spokes and not drive on the sidewalks, ffs. Since when is any bicycle more dangerous to pedestrians than cars? Is he going to ban cars next? What about chewing gum? I'm surprised he hasn't banned bananas, because the peels are unsightly and slippery. He fucking annoys me and I don't even live in the city.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:14 PM

77. It doesn't make sense to me

Make reasonable rules and enforce them, but why lock urban dwellers into either muscle-propelled bikes or motor vehicles?

Urban problems such as traffic congestion and pollution would be greatly ameliorated by more electric bikes. Also, we are an aging society, and these may be necessary for older persons.

Just my two cents.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:18 PM

78. Actually, they sound like a good idea if driven properly. nt

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:21 PM

79. Fast and dangerous like say... a motorcycle?

 



on edit: wouldnt it make more sense just to make them follow the traffic rules?

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Response to bunnies (Reply #79)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 05:32 PM

81. Not even close to a motorcycle

Indeed most ebikes aren't even as fast as a strong rider on a regular bicycle. I have one I built myself and it's actually slower on steep downhills than it was pre-electrified because the motor has some drag, about 25 to 27 mph max where before I could go well over 30 on a long downhill.

However it does let an old fossil like me get up the steepish hills in my area without having an aneurysm, the slower you are going the more assist an ebike gives you, over about 20 or so most of them don't give you any assist at all.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #81)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:33 PM

85. Really? He feels the need to ban something like that?

 

wow

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 06:37 PM

87. Did you know he also funds gun safety groups?

Lots of them, with lots of money.

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Response to Robb (Reply #87)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:27 PM

89. Does that makeup for all his other crap?

In the eyes of his sycophants maybe, but ask the OWS people if you want an honest opinion.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #89)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:45 PM

90. One of them is Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

Have you heard of it? Great organization, good work being done, powerful advocacy. Plus the funding to get something done.

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Response to Robb (Reply #90)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:22 PM

97. Have you looked at their felony rate?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #97)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:25 PM

98. Bloomberg also donated a TON of money to Planned Parenthood.

Probably bugs a lot of the "Progressive Gun Enthusiasts" he did that, too -- even apart from all the support for gun control.

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Response to Robb (Reply #98)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:36 PM

100. You can't pink/green/blue or white wash the 1% stench and hubris from Bloomie

He just keeps doing 1%er things for all to see.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #100)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:52 PM

102. Donated more than $1 billion to Johns Hopkins. With a "b", "billion."

Also, he's really in favor of gun control.

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Response to Robb (Reply #102)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:56 PM

103. He is still a 1%er doing 1%er things

Can one buy acceptability in your world? If so, what is your price?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #103)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:23 PM

104. Plus he's really pro gun control.

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Response to Robb (Reply #104)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:44 PM

105. Bloomie is still a rabid 1%er with even more hubris than money

What did he have to spend for you to ignore he ignominious actions and see only those you approve of?

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:55 PM

92. E-bike? That seems the same thing as an electric motorbike. Which is a vehicle...

that should be on the streets, not sidewalks.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:34 PM

94. Bloomberg says they're fast and dangerous -- but let me tell you something . . .

. . . As someone who, a few years ago, was hit by a bicycle messenger, you won't convince me that they are inherently more or less dangerous than a bicycle. I was walking south along the west side of Third Avenue. As I crossed East 54th Street, which runs westbound one way, my primary concern traffic-wise was from traffic turning onto 54th from Third Avenue. I did a quick, peripheral glance to my right, and saw nothing coming, but, since there was no reason to expect any eastbound traffic emerging from 54th Street, focused most of my attention on any traffic on Third Avenue that might be looking to turn. And I had the "Walk" sign. I crossed, my eyes still looking slightly to the left, when . . . WHAM . . . this bicycle, operated by a bicycle messenger peddling like he was in the Tour de France, hit the right side of my body. The force of the impact threw me up in the air, and then down on my left side, arm outstretched above my head, so force of my full body weight came down on my ribcage, resulting in very badly, badly bruised ribs. I got myself up from the pavement as the cyclist asked if I was okay, but needless to say, the wind had been knocked out of me, so all I could do was respond with a kind of glazed nod. He then said -- get this -- "Next time you really should watch where you're walking," and then sped off. Asshole. My point is, any vehicle can be dangerous -- it's the driver that counts.

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Response to markpkessinger (Reply #94)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 10:33 PM

99. In my interactions with them in the past I saw them coming

and made sure they got the worst of the incident.

Yet somehow large sodas are more pressing than pedestrians' safety.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:59 PM

96. They're ALREADY illegal on public streets, for good reason. This bill just makes it easier

to enforce the existing law. Hence why the title of the bill is "A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the city of New York, in relation to the enforcement of motor scooter provisions".

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #96)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:28 AM

106. What is the "good reason" ebikes are illegal?

Because they aren't in the vast majority of states, indeed in my state they are specifically allowed by law on bike paths. Even in Europe where things are often much more closely regulated ebikes are legal.

If you actually were to ride most commercial ebikes you would be underwhelmed by the performance, they are by no means what you seem to be imagining.

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