So ... what happens if they can't prove Dzhokhar actually killed anyone?

[brett_jv]

With the recent news that the remaining Boston terror suspect was found shot, but with no gun in his possession, as well as the fact that he supposedly has the 'best of the best' in regards to his defense lawyers (at least insofar as 'public defenders' go), I find myself wondering whether there's not some small chance this guy could weasel his way out of the death penalty he's currently facing.

One thing that I've found interesting is how little we've 'heard' (correct me if I'm wrong, I've kept a pretty close eye on the news but I'm sure I've missed things) in regards to the damage caused by each of the two bombs. All of the photos I've ever seen *appear* to show the carnage at one of the two bomb sites, and I assume that this was the site of the 'first' bomb. And obviously, we've been led to believe (and it makes sense) that each brother placed one bomb a piece.

So ... without knowing which brother set which bomb, nor how much damage was actually caused by the 2nd bomb, I find myself wondering if there's not some small possibility that the bomb dropped by Dzhokhar didn't actually cause much damage? And given that there's no evidence at this point (although some may be found eventually) that the younger brother ever shot at the cops, nor threw bombs at them ...

While of course he was involved in a terrorist conspiracy that killed, and there's most certainly laws that make that sort of thing extremely illegal (so there's almost no way he's not getting life), I think it will create a bit of an interesting scenario *IF* it turns out that Tamerlan was the one who set the bomb that actually killed people, and was the one who shot at the cops that were killed and critically wounded.

What would've been REALLY 'smart' of him is if the first thing he'd told the cops was that he didn't even know what was in the backpack he dropped, that his brother just handed it to him and asked him to go place it somewhere. Granted, it would've been VERY tough to 'put over' on a jury, but if all the above was true (nobody killed by his bomb or gunfire), AND he'd told the cops that he didn't even know what was in the backpack ... he could've put himself in a position where there might be some semblance of a 'reasonable doubt' that would make a trial 'worth it'.

But it sounds like he's already confessed to being directly 'involved' in the plot, so ... that's out the window for him. I think the best that dude could hope for is pleading out to avoid the death penalty, perhaps on the grounds that he wasn't directly responsible for killing anyone (*if* that turns out to be true).

[zappaman]

1. Oh well

Guess we'll have to wait for the trial.

[brett_jv]

12. I doubt there's going to be a trial UNLESS the things I said above turn out to be true ...

I would think his lawyers will plead him down to 'life w/o possibility', and that it'll probably be accepted given that he's only 19, and almost certainly not the 'mastermind'.

I think the only way there's actually a trial is if the lawyers think they can prove he never actually killed anyone himself. In which case they'd probably take it to trial to see if maybe they can't get him 'life with possibility'. I think no matter what, that would be the best he could possibly hope for.

[Chan790]

27. In order to convict for murder, they don't HAVE to prove that he killed anybody.

Only that he was a willing participant in the conspiracy engaged in a felony that resulted in one or more homicide.

The traditional example of this is as follows:

Two men decide to rob a convenience store. They agree in advance to not harm anybody; in fact the gunman's gun isn't even loaded. The other man is purely a get away driver and never gets out of the running car. The gunman pulls the gun and demands the money. Unfortunately, the clerk doesn't give him the money but instead pulls a shotgun. The clerk and the gunman struggle for the shotgun which discharges and kills the clerk instantly. Both men, the gunman and the getaway driver, can be charged with murder and the death-penalty sought.

Assume instead the clerk wins and the gunman is shot. The getaway driver can still be charged with the murder.

Assume they get away cleanly with the money and the shotgun never fires. As they're fleeing at high speed, they clip a pedestrian who dies. Yup, they can be charged with murder and the death-penalty sought against both of them.

The first one occurs more commonly than the second two...but all three examples have occurred and resulted in at-least one capital conviction.

(I'm still anti-DP...but it's important as an activist to understand how the system works.)

[FarCenter]

2. The second bomb killed two people Martin Richard and Krystal Campbell

There is a picture of them standing next to the backpack that was placed by Suspect 2 before it exploded.

[twinker]

13. No. That was the first bomb.

Just check it out.

[FarCenter]

15. Dzhokar Tsarnaev Near Martin Richard At Crime Scene — New Pic

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/04/19/boston-bombing-crime-scene-pic-martin-richard-dzhokar-tsarnaev-photo/

[twinker]

18. This picture doesn't show Martin

Martin was at the finish line and congratulated his father:

Martin was reportedly standing with his mother Denise Richard and sister Jane Richard, 6, when two bombs exploded within 12 second of each other, according to The Boston Globe.

Before the explosions, Martin gave his dad Bill Richard a hug at the finish line. Sadly, when Martin ran back to his mother, the first bomb exploded and killed him. Reports claims that his Martin’s mother was seriously injured — she underwent surgery for an injury on her brain on April 15, and Jane lost her leg.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/04/16/martin-richard-dad-statement-son-death-boston-marathon-explosion/

I suggest to be a litte bit more skeptical with pictures.

[SoCalMusicLover]

30. Sorry, You Are Incorrect

That initial information was incorrect. The father was in fact with the family at the site of the 2nd bomb.

Martin most definitely was in front of the restaurant, which is where Dhokhar left his backpack.

[twinker]

33. Source, please? NT

I've sourced my claim. You not.

The father was a participant of the Marathon - what did he do at the seond site?

[City Lights]

56. Here:

<snip>

Martin Richard was eight years old. He died after injuries suffered during the second of two blasts at the end of the race, which also seriously injured his mother, Denise, and sister, Jane. His father, Bill, was a runner but not a marathon participant. Martin is also survived by his brother, Henry.

<snip>

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/martin-richard-boy-boston-bombing/64278/

[arcane1]

65. You give atlanticwire more credibility than hollywoodlife.com??

[brett_jv]

32. I have to say that, a week after this incident happened ...

The fact that there's still confusion in regards to exactly who was killed by each of the two explosions, even amongst people who've been following the story very closely the whole time ... strikes me as a bit odd.

I'd think that by now, we'd have seen diagrams in the media that show where each of the three murder victims were standing, along with labels that said 'Tamerlans bomb' and 'Dzhokhar's Bomb'.

Not trying to 'make something' of it, I'm not saying it necessarily 'means something', I'm just saying ... it's just kinda strange that there's doubt amongst us still.

Or ... is there just such a thing out there, and some of us have just never seen it?

[brett_jv]

14. Oh, okay ...

So then both bombs killed at least one person?

Yeah, he's toast then.

Nevermind!

[yellowcanine]

16. Yeah the video evidence sounds very incriminating for him and the second bomb.

Actually more definitive than for his brother and the first bomb, I believe.

I suspect what might save him from the death penalty is if he is cooperative as well as his youth and possibly being unduly influenced by his brother.

[twinker]

22. Have you seen the video?

I've only heard about it.

[yellowcanine]

37. The most incriminating video hasn't been released and I suspect will not be until trial.

The Thursday April 19 release of photos was based on what the FBI saw on a video of the younger son but they did not release the video at the time or since and I think it will probably be saved for trial. But descriptions have leaked or been leaked.

[Recursion]

3. Accessory and conspiracy can go a long way

It will surprise me very much if he doesn't plead out, though.

[patricia92243]

9. I don't understand HOW he could plead out. I thought a person got a lesser sentence because

they "helped" the police. He hasn't done anything to help, that I know of - except say he and brother did not belong to a terror group. And who knows if that is the truth.

[Recursion]

25. It means avoiding the risk mentioned in the OP

Which is why DA's will do that. Actually very few criminal cases end up going to trial.

[Blue_Tires]

24. plead?

you think for one second the DA will accept any kind of deal?

unless if by "plead" you mean "one life sentence with no parole instead of three consecutive life sentences"

[Recursion]

26. That's exactly what I mean

Or possibly even 99 years or something like that. Few criminal cases actually go to trial, or at least few go all the way to a verdict.

[ewagner]

54. felony murder...

he committed several felonies and people were murdered because of it...a death in which a felony is the proximate cause is murder...any accomplice is as guilty as the one who pulled the trigger.

[seabeyond]

4. i think the visual of seeing the guy shoot at them and drive over the brother is a gimme. nt

[brett_jv]

29. I just have to ask ...

Given that no gun was found at the boat, and only one gun of theirs has been recovered to date ... how certain are we that the younger brother fired any shots the night of the 'chase', or threw any bombs? In fact, AFAIK, there's never been any official statement that the younger brother drove over the older one's body either.

IOW, have you actually seen the 'visual' you're referring to?

[leftynyc]

45. Here's a link

to a guy who witnessed the entire shootout - it was just outside his home. Plenty of pictures to choose from.

http://www.guns.com/2013/04/24/the-man-who-live-blogged-the-terrorist-shootout-in-boston-photos-video/

I have no idea what kind of website this is - I just knew I had seen someone had photos/video of the event and did a google search.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. There are no images of the younger Tsarnaev shooting at anyone

At least, none that have been released. All the images of the Watertown shooting show the older Tsarnaev with a gun, and the younger Tsarnaev crouching behind a car.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

5. Watching 48 Hours... you don't have to be the trigger person... as long as you were in on it

[FarCenter]

7. Yes, if persons A and B are commiting a crime, and B murders someone, A is also guilty of murder.

eg if bank robbery gang robs a bank and one of the gang kills a guard, they are all guilty of murder.

[backscatter712]

66. Yep. Getaway drivers have been convicted of murder when people inside were shot.

All people teaming up to commit the crime are equally guilty. So the getaway driver who did nothing but sit outside and drive the car can get a 1st degree murder conviction if people inside the bank or 7/11 were killed in the robbery.

This is classic jurisprudence.

[riderinthestorm]

6. Well yes, except for that wee part about Dzhokhar confessing...

No matter what, even assuming his hands didn't place the "killing" bomb, he's an accessory to 4 murders, illegal firearms possession, attempted murder of a police officer (driving his car right at them when he escaped in the Mercedes SUV), possession of a "WMD" (that's the term the feds are using in the charges against him), etc etc.

I'm against the DP so I don't have a problem with life in prison without parole.

[onenote]

8. Conspiracy is all it takes

18 usc 2332a makes it a crime for a person to use, threaten, or attempt or conspire to use, a weapon of mass destruction against person or property in the US and if death occurs, such person is subject to the death penalty.

[marions ghost]

10. They know which one he dropped

he's on video and there's the testimony of Jeff Bauman.

I doubt he'll bother to lie. Wouldn't be in his best interests.

He's toast.

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Jeff Bauman witnessed Tamerlan Tsarnaev place the first bomb (at finish line)

Dzhokar Tsarnaev placed the bomb at the second site. His bomb certainly killed Martin Richard.

[marions ghost]

49. OK then its the video

that shows Dzhokhar.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Yes, they have him dead to rights on Bomb 2

It will only be through an act of mercy that he avoids the death penalty. He places a bomb less than five feet from two small children. He will be very lucky to avoid a needle.

[flamingdem]

11. He has confessed to the incident, right?

Plus the person whose legs were blown off can ID him.

[cheapdate]

17. The Tsarnaev brothers are also accused of killing an MIT police officer,

shooting at police, possessing explosives, etc., etc. Dzhokhar will almost certainly receive multiple life sentences, at the least.

[nachosgrande]

19. except...

There's a photo of him placing "his" bomb right next to that poor kid. Dzhokhar should rot in hell.

[Myrina]

20. He's not charged with "murder". He's charged with possesing WMD and "destruction

... leading to the loss of life (and property)".

Those things are 100% proveable.

[cali]

21. if someone takes part in, for instance, and armed robbery

with another person, and the other person shoots and kills someone, the person who didn't kill, can be found guilty of murder, even if he/she was just driving the get away vehicle.

[panader0]

28. Here in my little town

two young jerks tried to rob a fast food joint. The cops responded and a cop shot and killed one of the guys. The other guy was charged with homicide. He was hiding in the walk-in fridge when his buddy was shot. Weird law.

[Yo_Mama]

50. Felony murder

If you are a willing participant in a crime and as a result of the crime someone is murdered, you are considered responsible even if you did not directly cause the death. This is a very old feature of common law.

In general, the felony from which the charge arose should be an act that was inherently dangerous or due to which the felon should have known that injury or death could arise. The death can be somewhat remote from the crime itself as long as there was a clear causation link.

For example, suppose I ran a pharmaceutical company, and I decided to boost my profits by selling antibiotic pills that were mostly chalk. And let's suppose that a lot of them were used, but someone became suspicious because all of a sudden pneumonia patients stopped responding to the antibiotic and started dying, and a bunch of colitis patients were hospitalized also. On inspection and testing, the authorities discover that my company is selling chalk vancomycin pills. No wonder I am undercutting the rest of the market!

If the authorities could prove that any of the resulting deaths were from a strain of bacteria that was indeed susceptible to vancomycin, and they could prove that I was knowingly substituting the inert substances. they would have ample legal grounds to charge me with felony murder.

Armed robberies are inherently dangerous activities, so a death resulting from one is usually charged as felony murder.

[warrior1]

23. he was apart of a conspiracy

to blow up the BM.

[Nye Bevan]

31. The Unabomber avoided a death sentence, so perhaps this guy will.

And as a death penalty opponent, that is fine with me. Life without parole is, I believe, sufficient.

[brett_jv]

34. I'm in the same boat ...

I've heard people suggesting Supermax and life-time solitary as well, and I have to say I am even MORE against that than I am against the DP.

Lifetime solitary is, in my mind, an absolutely barbaric sentence to impose on a human being. FAR worse, in fact, than the death penalty. I am 100% against sticking ANYONE in solitary for more than 1 month at a time, no matter how evil they are. It's literally tantamount to torture to put people in solitary for extended periods of time.

What really pisses me off about it is that people can end up in solitary for YEARS, purely through extra-judicial processes. Wardens, for example, have the authority to just up and DECIDE that someone in their prison serve out the remainder of their sentence in Solitary, based on the flimsiest of excuses. I find it absolutely abhorrent that we allow this to take place in a civilized country.

[stevenleser]

36. And it's much worse IMHO to spend life in prison in either a regular prison, surrounded by

other violent felons or in a SuperMax than to be executed.

I would take a lethal injection over those two imprisonment options any day of the week.

[brett_jv]

46. I'd choose life in the general population over being put to death ...

But over a Supermax, like, in solitary for life? HELL NO. Please, please ... I'd beg to be put to death over lifetime solitary.

If this kid somehow manages to 'luck out' and get lifetime in a regular prison, he better ask to get his head shorn, and then walk in the door and start loudly announcing his hate of the jews, black people, queers, etc. Because I'd bet the ONLY way he's going to end up staying alive is to cozy up to the neo-nazi types ... because most of the rest of the prison population is going to want to see this guy dead.

But I'd wager that the violent white supremacists would take this guy as their own in a heartbeat as long as he espouses their same hate. Most of those people are extremely anti-government, and anti-authority in general. The fact that this guy went out throwing bombs and shooting at cops ... they'll love this kid, as long as he hates the people they hate.

I somehow doubt though that he'd get 'lucky' enough to avoid a Supermax. If Richard Reid is there, w/o ever actually killing anyone ... Dzhokhar is a shoo-in.

[Jennicut]

62. He would never go in a normal population.

Too many issues with his safety. He will be alone or dead from the death penalty. Neither is pleasant and at 19 he had his whole life ahead of him. He made some really horrible choices but perhaps thought that he would not make it through the police chase alive.

[Nye Bevan]

63. Yep. Jihadist bombers are guaranteed Supermax.

Richard Reid (shoe bomber) is another example.

Murdering people and blowing people's limbs off has consequences.

[Yo_Mama]

51. The Unabomber was a schizophrenic

And I believe his brother, who turned him in, retained a lawyer before doing so to negotiate no death penalty - which I believe was a justified action.

[Walk away]

35. He ran over his brother while he was still alive and dragged him 30 feet...

under a SUV. That sounds like cold blooded murder to me.

[marions ghost]

38. Not clear he did that on purpose

he was trying to get away.

[brett_jv]

39. Proof?

Not saying you're wrong by any means, but I don't recall hearing any official statement along those lines.

[Walk away]

64. The police who were trying to subdue #1 had to scramble...

not to get run over. I suppose there testimony will come out eventually.

[truth2power]

41. There was a supposed witness who said he didn't run over his brother. The police did.

I don't know what the truth of the matter is. I wasn't there. I assume you weren't either.

I'm just sayin'

[Blue Diadem]

57. Someone took pictures. Shootout took place in front of his home.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10013153/Boston-marathon-bombs-Tsarnaev-shoot-out-captured-in-pictures.html

Couldn't remember where I saw them before but found this link with some of the pictures.

[auburngrad82]

40. It's been suggested that the government cut a deal with Tsarnaev to avoid the death penalty

I can understand why they would want to do this.

They cut a deal for Tsarnaev to provide as much information as he has about his actions and any activity by suspected terrorist groups that he might know of. In return, he gets life. This works out pretty well because it would eliminate terrorist groups using Tsarnaev as a martyr for their cause. Instead of executing him and turning him into a martyr, lock him away in a hole in the wall for the rest of his life and let people forget him.

The last thing we need is someone who other terrorists can use as an inspiration or a reason to attack us, and his death would probably provide that inspiration.

[gejohnston]

43. there are a number of things they can prove

like violating various MA and federal gun laws.

[Yo_Mama]

47. I don't think being captured without a gun helps him at all.

The current charges against him are using a weapon of mass destruction and malicious destruction of property resulting in death. Both carry the death penalty. Given the photos and the fact that the two had the same type of bomb in their possession at the time of the shootout, it appears that the government has an incredibly strong case:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/04/legal-questions-about-dzhokhar-tsarnaev.html

He could face separate trials for local charges in the carjacking/kidnap and the shootout, but those would be separate proceedings. There will probably be additional charges laid against him as the government completes evidence gathering and reviews the case.

I'm guessing a life-without-parole deal, but I think that's the best he can possibly get.

[lynne]

48. Kinda' like Charles Manson? -

- Oh, wait . . .

[Taverner]

53. Trust me, he will go to jail for something

Tax evasion if it has to be...

[bluedigger]

55. I don't think the Federal prosecutor will seek the DP, or accept a plea.

They will forego the DP because Massachusetts doesn't have it, and Federal prosecutors usually defer to State policies on the DP. Makes it easier to draw a jury, I guess.

They will not accept a plea because they want a show trial to demonstrate the fairness and transparency of the US civilian legal system, especially it's effectiveness in such cases vis a vis military tribunals, and there is virtually zero chance of any finding other than guilty.

[lastlib]

58. all they really have to prove is concerted action and intent....

and they've got him. If he even touched a bomb that killed someone, while it was being constructed or delivered, or assisted in any way with its construction or planning to use it, he's toast.

He's toast.

[B2G]

59. He confessed.

[rollin74]

60. when it comes to conspiracy to murder people

they don't have to prove which bomb he set off or which victims may have died as a result of his actions

they don't even have to prove that he directly caused anyone's death at all

if you are involved in the conspiracy then you're in all the way when it comes to the legal ramifications and criminal penalty

[haele]

61. Conspiracy to commit murder. Aiding and abetting.

Committing an act of terrorism. Whether or not he can be found to have killed anyone other than maybe his brother by running over him, he still on camera for having participated in an act of terrorism.

Means in a federal case it's life without parole as the max penalty rather than a potential death penalty trial.

But he doesn't get off.

Haele

[dems_rightnow]

67. When I was little...

Me and two brothers were throwing rocks against the side of a metal building, just because it made cool sounds. When our dad caught us my little brother was crying that he shouldn't be in trouble. When dad asked him why, he cried "Because I missed!"

Same theory.

[Honeycombe8]

68. They know which bro set which bomb. 2nd-I don't think it matters which bomb killed

people and which only maimed them, if that's the case.

I'm not sure, but in some laws there's the provision that says that when someone gets killed in the commission of a crime that you participate in, you are judged guilty of the death, regardless of whether it can be proved that you directly were the cause of it. Like when two guys commit armed robbery, and one of them shoots the store clerk (the only witness), the prosecutor doesn't have to prove WHICH armed robber killed the clerk - only that one of them did. They are both judged guilty as if they were the shooter.

They may take a plea from the suspect, in return for a life sentence.

How they know which bro placed which bomb: Jeff, the man whose two legs were blown off, saw the older brother place the bomb right at Jeff's feet. He saw him close and gave his description to the FBI. Then the video and pics show the younger brother around the site of the 2nd bomb, enough to indicate he placed that one.