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dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 12:00 PM Apr 2013

Shut Up or Get Out: PA City Punishes Domestic Violence Victims Who Call the Police

Last year in Norristown, Pa., Lakisha Briggs' boyfriend physically assaulted her, and the police arrested him.
But in a cruel turn of events, a police officer then told Ms. Briggs, "You are on three strikes. We're gonna have your landlord evict you."


Yes, that's right. The police threatened Ms. Briggs with eviction because she had received their assistance for domestic violence. Under Norristown's "disorderly behavior ordinance," the city penalizes landlords and tenants when the police respond to three instances of "disorderly behavior" within a four-month period. The ordinance specifically includes "domestic disturbances" as disorderly behavior that triggers enforcement of the law.

Norristown is not alone. Cities and towns across the United States have similar laws, sometimes referred to as "nuisance ordinances" or "crime-free ordinances." We represented a domestic violence victim in Illinois, who after years of experiencing abuse, decided to reach out to the police for the first time. The police charged her husband with domestic battery and resisting arrest. Yet only a few days later, the police department sent her landlord a notice, instructing the landlord to evict the victim under the local ordinance based on the arrest.
The message was clear: calling the police leads to homelessness.


http://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rights-lgbt-rights-racial-justice-criminal-law-reform/shut-or-get-out-pa-city-punishes
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Shut Up or Get Out: PA City Punishes Domestic Violence Victims Who Call the Police (Original Post) dixiegrrrrl Apr 2013 OP
So, why isn't this guy in jail...? nt Grey Apr 2013 #1
It's not a life sentence, and jail time won't fix this pediatricmedic Apr 2013 #25
Therapists don't help abusers. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #27
Nice of you to give up on fellow human beings pediatricmedic Apr 2013 #34
Except for the fact that the person doing the hitting is committing a crime and deserves jail time. Sivafae Apr 2013 #44
Never said they didn't deserve jail time, but how long do you want to lock them up? pediatricmedic Apr 2013 #50
"how long do you want to lock them up?" Heywood J Apr 2013 #58
24% of all relationships have some violence. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #41
Actual statistics Progressive dog Apr 2013 #52
this country has become so mean barbtries Apr 2013 #2
Why doesn't this surprise me, because I grew up in life long demo Apr 2013 #3
Left as an infant, but I was born there. Posteritatis Apr 2013 #7
To me it looks like defacto7 Apr 2013 #16
Get rid of the abuser and no more domestic calls. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2013 #4
how will that help if the abusee keeps letting the abuser back in leftyohiolib Apr 2013 #5
It won't but I'm a big believer in personal empowerment, particularly for women Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2013 #6
They make things called "prisons" which theoretically prevent that. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #8
yup that is an issue, many calls for service end up with not wanting charges loli phabay Apr 2013 #21
Those women live in fear. redqueen Apr 2013 #28
I never claimed it was easy. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2013 #32
Agreed on all points. redqueen Apr 2013 #35
Just once in my life IrishAyes Apr 2013 #46
Similar to my initial thought too, but sometimes women are unable to leave octothorpe Apr 2013 #40
That's why the authorities need to step forward, i.e. enforce ROs with felony sentences Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2013 #42
Taking out an RO IrishAyes Apr 2013 #47
Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #9
Hey! IrishAyes Apr 2013 #13
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #23
Really? HappyMe Apr 2013 #29
No, it isn't that the enraged man doesn't know how to control himself. He could if he was around raccoon Apr 2013 #36
Point well taken IrishAyes Apr 2013 #43
'Usually' 'Many'. Cite some data, peer reviewed please. AtheistCrusader Apr 2013 #15
That's shocking! IrishAyes Apr 2013 #10
It has to be AsahinaKimi Apr 2013 #57
That silly woman should stopped getting abused. Simple! Orrex Apr 2013 #11
I have heard more than once, that cops' #1 least favorite call is for domestic violence. Quantess Apr 2013 #12
they are, for one they are dangerous with high emotiond loli phabay Apr 2013 #22
Another example of the republican's war on women nakocal Apr 2013 #14
The police are forcing SCVDem Apr 2013 #17
bad solution to a very real problem KT2000 Apr 2013 #18
In the dysfunctional relationships you describe, there is no "abuser" lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #20
"Mos domestic violence is reciprocal--" I didn't know that! Where's the state where most raccoon Apr 2013 #37
Now you do. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #39
Whoa there..... dixiegrrrrl Apr 2013 #53
Wow... far too many problems with your math to know where to start.... opiate69 Apr 2013 #54
Look at it another way. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #55
I see your point KT2000 Apr 2013 #38
Injuries are usually the culmination of mutual violence. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #45
Minneapolis has a similar law it does not say domestic abuse specifically azurnoir Apr 2013 #19
Looks like a way to enable abusive boyfriends... jmowreader Apr 2013 #24
Well he could save the police any more aggravation if he just kills her next time lunatica Apr 2013 #33
Get MARRIED HockeyMom Apr 2013 #26
Every time I think I've hit the limit of outrage with lawmakers, PDJane Apr 2013 #30
So when women start getting murdered will the landord have to be arrested? lunatica Apr 2013 #31
Well, it does remind me IrishAyes Apr 2013 #48
Does anyone know IrishAyes Apr 2013 #49
"Message auto removed" means the poster has been banned. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #51
Thank you. IrishAyes Apr 2013 #56

pediatricmedic

(397 posts)
25. It's not a life sentence, and jail time won't fix this
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:05 PM
Apr 2013

Both parties involved need the help of trained councilors and therapists. Jail time and other punitive actions don't fix anything and can make it worse.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
27. Therapists don't help abusers.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:30 PM
Apr 2013

Therapy fails all the time in this situation. And the asshole guy is managing his anger just fine - he's taking it out on her. The only thing she can do is leave.

Jail time is the ONLY way to handle abusers.

pediatricmedic

(397 posts)
34. Nice of you to give up on fellow human beings
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:40 PM
Apr 2013

Not to mention the desire to swell the largest jail population on the planet even more.

The abused also have coping issues that allows this abuse to happen, guess they deserve it as well by your logic.

Sivafae

(480 posts)
44. Except for the fact that the person doing the hitting is committing a crime and deserves jail time.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:37 PM
Apr 2013

I was told by my domestic violence counselor not to go to a therapist if I was in an actively abusive relationship. She said that they are often used as another means to abuse. Therapists are grievously and commonly under-educated on the 8 different aspects of what constitutes DV. So your suggestion is not only simplistic, but dangerous as well.

And again, the question should not be, "Why do they stay?" but, "Why do they hit?" Because if you talk to anyone who does stay, they are often in fear of their life and staying means staying alive.

pediatricmedic

(397 posts)
50. Never said they didn't deserve jail time, but how long do you want to lock them up?
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 05:36 PM
Apr 2013

Automatic life sentence for DV? Depending on jurisdiction, jail time is a few days to a few months.

I do agree that many licensed personnel are badly under trained for mental health situations like this.

On a rights issue, do you force two adult people to separate against their wishes in a DV situation?

Do you tell someone that it is mandatory to go to a shelter? My own answer to that is NO. I was the abused in a relationship with a woman abuser(OMG, a big strong man can never be the abused). It isn't fun being a punching bag and the tongue hurts even more.

I didn't offer a complex answer because that is outside the scope of this forum. It is a complex situation with a lot of possible answers. The police are apparently drawing a line and saying they are tired of putting up with it. Sounds like a lot of frustration on all sides.

I still hold that punitive action does not fix the problem.

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
58. "how long do you want to lock them up?"
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 11:00 PM
Apr 2013

Long enough that they get their counseling or anger management well away from the victim.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
41. 24% of all relationships have some violence.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:30 PM
Apr 2013

In half of those relationships, the violence is reciprocal. In the rest (what people ordinarly think of as batterer/victim relationships) the woman is the batterer 70% of the time.

Further, injury is comparatively rare in nonreciprocally violent relationships for both men and women. When the IPV escalates to mutual combat, the participants get hurt.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Domestic violence is a serious problem. It is serious enough that it's important to understand it rather than simply run with a stereotype.

If the individuals in dysfunctional relationships stop beating on one another for fear of losing their apartment, I'm okay with that.

Progressive dog

(6,861 posts)
52. Actual statistics
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 05:46 PM
Apr 2013

Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)
I work this out as almost 6:1 women vs men as battered. So that makes the man the batterer 85% of the time.

life long demo

(1,113 posts)
3. Why doesn't this surprise me, because I grew up in
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 12:17 PM
Apr 2013

the town across the river from Norristown. Norristown is the county seat for Montgomery County, PA. This is what they call being tough on crime.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
16. To me it looks like
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:25 PM
Apr 2013

a pretty clear cut case of bullying and rape culture mentality by the city. The police? maybe. But the police are the enforcers of city policy and law. I say the city is specifically at fault, the police by proxy.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
4. Get rid of the abuser and no more domestic calls.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 12:27 PM
Apr 2013

Are we going to ever get tired of treating symptoms while ignoring diseases?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
6. It won't but I'm a big believer in personal empowerment, particularly for women
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:05 PM
Apr 2013

So many people have been indoctrinated to accept whatever evils befall them. That's not to put the onus on them; it's not their fault others act as they do but a woman who knows she can make it through life on her own power, that she is a strong person who should not accept abuse and is self-assured will find a quicker remedy than anything the police can provide. And now, thanks to this asinine law, the government is now part of the abuse and disempowerment.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
21. yup that is an issue, many calls for service end up with not wanting charges
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:45 PM
Apr 2013

Or the petitioner getting a protective order and not having it enforced. Then you get nightly calls back to the same abode with the same accusations.

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
28. Those women live in fear.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:30 PM
Apr 2013

Three women are murdered by their partners or ex partners every day in this country. On average, in the US alone.

It really isn't as easy as you seem to think.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
32. I never claimed it was easy.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:38 PM
Apr 2013

I want whatever it takes to keep people safe. I may be wrong but it seems restraining orders are barely worth the paper they are written on. What the hell's the point of going through convoluted legal processes if the abusers can flout the law with impunity. I understand the system is lethargic and whatnot but NOT imposing serious jail time on people who violate ROs almost seems an invitation for them to do so.

If silence is consent the courts have been silent far too long.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
46. Just once in my life
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:57 PM
Apr 2013

I took out a restraining order on a man who was stalking me and making verbal threats. Wanna know how far away from me the judge said he had to stay? TWO FREAKIN' FEET! The only way I got rid of the guy was to ask a certain friend of mine to pay him a little visit and quietly remind him of his manners. Of course that was back in the '80's but I know things haven't really gotten much better. You're right of course, severe penalties need to be in place and enforced. And I'd done nothing to attract this stalker's attention except exist.

And they wonder why people sometimes have to take extreme measures to protect themselves! Although a well-trained guard dog is my preference, I've gotten rid of a few pests who insisted on my company by offering to introduce them to my twin brothers Smith and Wesson. Most of these guys are cowards anyway; they're after what they imagine as low-hanging fruit.

Ladies, if you've done everything else possible and you don't have young children to worry about, keeping a can of wasp spray (longer reach than pepper spray) or even bear spray handy offers another measure of safety. And don't tell me I'm 'living in fear' either. I sleep quite well, thank you, even after losing my Chows almost a year ago. The 2 little dogs are such yappers that nobody can surprise me, and the few bad guys we have in this flyspeck town where I retired already know me well enough not to try anything. There are a couple of decent single guys here who'd like to hang out with me but both are Republicans and one's afraid of his mommy.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
40. Similar to my initial thought too, but sometimes women are unable to leave
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:24 PM
Apr 2013

abusive situations for various reason. It could be that they are scared for their lives or perhaps they simply don't have the financial means to escape.

Although, perhaps I interpreted your post wrong and you're not saying she should get rid of the abuser by herself, but that we need to make it easier for women to be able to help themselves out of such situation. In that, I fully agree.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
47. Taking out an RO
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:59 PM
Apr 2013

is the most common flashpoint at which an abuser kills his victim(s), so those fears are not unfounded.

Response to dixiegrrrrl (Original post)

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
13. Hey!
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:40 PM
Apr 2013

The police are supposed to see a fight taking place or clear evidence of one before they haul a man off to jail. They can't just walk into a quiet situation where no one shows evidence of injury and arrest a man just because a woman wants them to do so. Besides, if they think it's the woman who's the aggressor, it's her they'll haul away.

I'm not saying no women are guilty of provocation. But most domestic violence is at the hands of an enraged man who doesn't know how to control himself. That's a matter of record.

Regardless, I hope more people eventually realize the dangers involved in these 'loose associations' so many folks jump into and then find themselves unhappy and/or in danger. Even worse when kids are involved.

I've already been bashed by some of my more extreme feminist friends before, so don't any of you go accusing me of excusing violence or blaming victims. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But damnit, people, behavior does have consequences like it or not, and you can't crawl in a hole with a snake and then be surprised when things go south. If we raised our girls to really know their own value, I think they'd be less susceptible to the modern culture that tells them 'without a man you're helpless and hopeless'. I believe in a stitch in time.

Response to IrishAyes (Reply #13)

raccoon

(31,088 posts)
36. No, it isn't that the enraged man doesn't know how to control himself. He could if he was around
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:55 PM
Apr 2013

even one other man who's bigger than he is.



IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
43. Point well taken
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:35 PM
Apr 2013

I know that and should have made it clear but didn't. At the very least, I should've said "doesn't choose to control his temper".

Actually, I also wish I'd said something about how very few women will beat themselves black and blue or break their own bones just to get an 'innocent' man in trouble.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
15. 'Usually' 'Many'. Cite some data, peer reviewed please.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:23 PM
Apr 2013

Getting real sick of this shit. Yes, it happens. Statistically, not very worthwhile for you to bring it up in this manner.

In fact, it has no relevance to the OP.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
10. That's shocking!
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:28 PM
Apr 2013

What happened to rules about cruel and unusual punishment? What do they do when children are involved? Talk about kicking people when they're down! This is NOT going to win officials any friends among the poor and dispossessed, who might be weak individually but can wreck almighty havoc in concentrated rage.

I never heard of such a thing, and it sickens and saddens me.

Orrex

(63,084 posts)
11. That silly woman should stopped getting abused. Simple!
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:28 PM
Apr 2013

Kind an asshole law, no?

I might understand if a person routinely calls the police and then routinely declines to press charges, but if someone is actually being abused and charges are being filed, then why should the victim be punished?

Rather than "three strikes" against the victim, it's more like a "get out of jail free" ordinance for the abuser!


Way to go, Norristown!

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
12. I have heard more than once, that cops' #1 least favorite call is for domestic violence.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 01:33 PM
Apr 2013

Which may have something to do with it.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
22. they are, for one they are dangerous with high emotiond
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:48 PM
Apr 2013

And sometimes the victim decides to get violent with Leo when you arrest the suspect, also a large number of victims keep going back and not following through on court etc. its always the same people diffirent day, same shit.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
17. The police are forcing
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:28 PM
Apr 2013

Violent confrontation, maybe with a gun.

So much for the police being your friend.

KT2000

(20,544 posts)
18. bad solution to a very real problem
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:36 PM
Apr 2013

There are regulars who call the police on their spouses as if the police are part of their dysfunctional marriage. They are a pain to police. Some of the regulars start their drinking on Friday night and by Saturday and embroiled in nasty fights. After so many calls, something should occur that would address the underlying problems - an abuser and a woman who does not leave an abuser. This could be court ordered counseling, anger management, alcohol treatment, etc.

Other than that - if there is to be a 3 strikes provision, it should be used against the abuser - as in long sentences. They could fast-track the woman for welfare etc. so financial support is not a reason to not call when she needs help.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
20. In the dysfunctional relationships you describe, there is no "abuser"
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
Apr 2013

Most domestic violence is reciprocal, and absent consequences for both parties, the cycle of violence won't be interrupted.

raccoon

(31,088 posts)
37. "Mos domestic violence is reciprocal--" I didn't know that! Where's the state where most
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:57 PM
Apr 2013

men who are murdered, are murdered by their wives or girlfriends?


 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
39. Now you do.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:18 PM
Apr 2013
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Objectives. We sought to examine the prevalence of reciprocal (i.e., perpetrated by both partners) and nonreciprocal intimate partner violence and to determine whether reciprocity is related to violence frequency and injury.

Methods. We analyzed data on young US adults aged 18 to 28 years from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, which contained information about partner violence and injury reported by 11 370 respondents on 18761 heterosexual relationships.

Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).

Conclusions. The context of the violence (reciprocal vs nonreciprocal) is a strong predictor of reported injury. Prevention approaches that address the escalation of partner violence may be needed to address reciprocal violence.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
53. Whoa there.....
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 06:19 PM
Apr 2013

In looking at the data:
a total of 18761 relationships is the size of the group measured.

24% of the relationships had "some" violence. ( violence not defined, btw)

So, 24% of 18761 =4, 502 had "some" violence.

Of the 4, 502 "some violence", 49.7% were reciprocally violent.( not defined, btw)
Let's call it 50% to make my caculator happy.

50% of 4,502 "some violence" = 2,251 were reciprocally violent.

2, 251 out of 18, 761 relationships is NOT Most domestic violence is reciprocal,
as you wrote in your post 20.

And I have problems with other points in the study as well.


 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
55. Look at it another way.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 06:55 PM
Apr 2013

Relationships in which the violence is unilateral is 50.3% of all violent relationships. In 70% of those relationships, the violence is perpetrated by the woman.

70% of 50.3% = 35.21%
35.21% + 49.7% = 84.91% of all women in violent relationships are themselves either perpetrators or combatants.

The stereotype of domestic violence is only accurate 15.09% of the time.

KT2000

(20,544 posts)
38. I see your point
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:58 PM
Apr 2013

but if there is evidence of physical violence such as injuries, the one who inflicted the injuries deserves a long prison sentence.
What may precede that is often a couple well practiced in goading each other into a fight. Physical injury though is the line where the police must take action.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
45. Injuries are usually the culmination of mutual violence.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:39 PM
Apr 2013

What you describe is clearly the way law enforcement deals with the issue, but it obviously isn't solving the problem.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
19. Minneapolis has a similar law it does not say domestic abuse specifically
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:39 PM
Apr 2013

it's contained under an umbrella law that allows eviction for police calls to a residence and back when I was renting in Mpls, a woman that lived in the same apt building as me was evicted for calling the police on her boyfriend who was beating her up

jmowreader

(50,447 posts)
24. Looks like a way to enable abusive boyfriends...
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 02:57 PM
Apr 2013

Woman's boyfriend beats the shit out of her. She calls cops, gets TRO against him.

He comes back, beats the shit out of her again. She calls cops.

He comes back again..."what you gonna do, (demeaning description of woman)? They're gonna let me out tomorrow and I'll help the sheriff throw your shit on the lawn." Even more fun: most rental applications ask if you've ever been evicted, and it's grounds for denial. You therefore have two choices: learn to enjoy getting the shit beat out of you regularly or forget about living indoors ever again.

Welcome to Pottsylvania, where we have more mean per square inch than other countries have per square mile.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
26. Get MARRIED
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:20 PM
Apr 2013

that will solve everything. A wedding ring is the solution for Domestic Violence, and of course, POVERTY!!!! Isn't that what GW said???????

PDJane

(10,103 posts)
30. Every time I think I've hit the limit of outrage with lawmakers,
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 03:34 PM
Apr 2013

I hit something like this. This is just....outrageous, stupid, blame-the-victim crap.

I literally want to hit something.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
49. Does anyone know
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 05:13 PM
Apr 2013

a way for me to uncover at least the identity of the poster whose replies to me got busted? Or if you saw them beforehand, I'd appreciate a DU mail with the particulars including content. The only reason I want to know is to be aware of who not to let on the My People list when that's available. I don't care if the person self-deleted or not, and I certainly don't plan to follow up in any way. I just want to know who it was.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
51. "Message auto removed" means the poster has been banned.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 05:38 PM
Apr 2013

There's no need to add him to any list - he's no longer a member of DU.

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
56. Thank you.
Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:23 PM
Apr 2013

Does DU ban isp addies, though? To prevent jerks reregistering? At least if they only have one provider?

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