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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShut Up or Get Out: PA City Punishes Domestic Violence Victims Who Call the Police
But in a cruel turn of events, a police officer then told Ms. Briggs, "You are on three strikes. We're gonna have your landlord evict you."
Yes, that's right. The police threatened Ms. Briggs with eviction because she had received their assistance for domestic violence. Under Norristown's "disorderly behavior ordinance," the city penalizes landlords and tenants when the police respond to three instances of "disorderly behavior" within a four-month period. The ordinance specifically includes "domestic disturbances" as disorderly behavior that triggers enforcement of the law.
The message was clear: calling the police leads to homelessness.
http://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rights-lgbt-rights-racial-justice-criminal-law-reform/shut-or-get-out-pa-city-punishes
Grey
(1,581 posts)pediatricmedic
(397 posts)Both parties involved need the help of trained councilors and therapists. Jail time and other punitive actions don't fix anything and can make it worse.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Therapy fails all the time in this situation. And the asshole guy is managing his anger just fine - he's taking it out on her. The only thing she can do is leave.
Jail time is the ONLY way to handle abusers.
pediatricmedic
(397 posts)Not to mention the desire to swell the largest jail population on the planet even more.
The abused also have coping issues that allows this abuse to happen, guess they deserve it as well by your logic.
Sivafae
(480 posts)I was told by my domestic violence counselor not to go to a therapist if I was in an actively abusive relationship. She said that they are often used as another means to abuse. Therapists are grievously and commonly under-educated on the 8 different aspects of what constitutes DV. So your suggestion is not only simplistic, but dangerous as well.
And again, the question should not be, "Why do they stay?" but, "Why do they hit?" Because if you talk to anyone who does stay, they are often in fear of their life and staying means staying alive.
pediatricmedic
(397 posts)Automatic life sentence for DV? Depending on jurisdiction, jail time is a few days to a few months.
I do agree that many licensed personnel are badly under trained for mental health situations like this.
On a rights issue, do you force two adult people to separate against their wishes in a DV situation?
Do you tell someone that it is mandatory to go to a shelter? My own answer to that is NO. I was the abused in a relationship with a woman abuser(OMG, a big strong man can never be the abused). It isn't fun being a punching bag and the tongue hurts even more.
I didn't offer a complex answer because that is outside the scope of this forum. It is a complex situation with a lot of possible answers. The police are apparently drawing a line and saying they are tired of putting up with it. Sounds like a lot of frustration on all sides.
I still hold that punitive action does not fix the problem.
Heywood J
(2,515 posts)Long enough that they get their counseling or anger management well away from the victim.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)In half of those relationships, the violence is reciprocal. In the rest (what people ordinarly think of as batterer/victim relationships) the woman is the batterer 70% of the time.
Further, injury is comparatively rare in nonreciprocally violent relationships for both men and women. When the IPV escalates to mutual combat, the participants get hurt.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
Domestic violence is a serious problem. It is serious enough that it's important to understand it rather than simply run with a stereotype.
If the individuals in dysfunctional relationships stop beating on one another for fear of losing their apartment, I'm okay with that.
Progressive dog
(6,861 posts)Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)
I work this out as almost 6:1 women vs men as battered. So that makes the man the batterer 85% of the time.
barbtries
(28,702 posts)i grieve.
life long demo
(1,113 posts)the town across the river from Norristown. Norristown is the county seat for Montgomery County, PA. This is what they call being tough on crime.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Even that much of a connection feels embarrassing right now.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)a pretty clear cut case of bullying and rape culture mentality by the city. The police? maybe. But the police are the enforcers of city policy and law. I say the city is specifically at fault, the police by proxy.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Are we going to ever get tired of treating symptoms while ignoring diseases?
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)So many people have been indoctrinated to accept whatever evils befall them. That's not to put the onus on them; it's not their fault others act as they do but a woman who knows she can make it through life on her own power, that she is a strong person who should not accept abuse and is self-assured will find a quicker remedy than anything the police can provide. And now, thanks to this asinine law, the government is now part of the abuse and disempowerment.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Or the petitioner getting a protective order and not having it enforced. Then you get nightly calls back to the same abode with the same accusations.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Three women are murdered by their partners or ex partners every day in this country. On average, in the US alone.
It really isn't as easy as you seem to think.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I want whatever it takes to keep people safe. I may be wrong but it seems restraining orders are barely worth the paper they are written on. What the hell's the point of going through convoluted legal processes if the abusers can flout the law with impunity. I understand the system is lethargic and whatnot but NOT imposing serious jail time on people who violate ROs almost seems an invitation for them to do so.
If silence is consent the courts have been silent far too long.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Restraining orders are a cruel joke.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)I took out a restraining order on a man who was stalking me and making verbal threats. Wanna know how far away from me the judge said he had to stay? TWO FREAKIN' FEET! The only way I got rid of the guy was to ask a certain friend of mine to pay him a little visit and quietly remind him of his manners. Of course that was back in the '80's but I know things haven't really gotten much better. You're right of course, severe penalties need to be in place and enforced. And I'd done nothing to attract this stalker's attention except exist.
And they wonder why people sometimes have to take extreme measures to protect themselves! Although a well-trained guard dog is my preference, I've gotten rid of a few pests who insisted on my company by offering to introduce them to my twin brothers Smith and Wesson. Most of these guys are cowards anyway; they're after what they imagine as low-hanging fruit.
Ladies, if you've done everything else possible and you don't have young children to worry about, keeping a can of wasp spray (longer reach than pepper spray) or even bear spray handy offers another measure of safety. And don't tell me I'm 'living in fear' either. I sleep quite well, thank you, even after losing my Chows almost a year ago. The 2 little dogs are such yappers that nobody can surprise me, and the few bad guys we have in this flyspeck town where I retired already know me well enough not to try anything. There are a couple of decent single guys here who'd like to hang out with me but both are Republicans and one's afraid of his mommy.
octothorpe
(962 posts)abusive situations for various reason. It could be that they are scared for their lives or perhaps they simply don't have the financial means to escape.
Although, perhaps I interpreted your post wrong and you're not saying she should get rid of the abuser by herself, but that we need to make it easier for women to be able to help themselves out of such situation. In that, I fully agree.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)is the most common flashpoint at which an abuser kills his victim(s), so those fears are not unfounded.
Response to dixiegrrrrl (Original post)
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IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)The police are supposed to see a fight taking place or clear evidence of one before they haul a man off to jail. They can't just walk into a quiet situation where no one shows evidence of injury and arrest a man just because a woman wants them to do so. Besides, if they think it's the woman who's the aggressor, it's her they'll haul away.
I'm not saying no women are guilty of provocation. But most domestic violence is at the hands of an enraged man who doesn't know how to control himself. That's a matter of record.
Regardless, I hope more people eventually realize the dangers involved in these 'loose associations' so many folks jump into and then find themselves unhappy and/or in danger. Even worse when kids are involved.
I've already been bashed by some of my more extreme feminist friends before, so don't any of you go accusing me of excusing violence or blaming victims. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But damnit, people, behavior does have consequences like it or not, and you can't crawl in a hole with a snake and then be surprised when things go south. If we raised our girls to really know their own value, I think they'd be less susceptible to the modern culture that tells them 'without a man you're helpless and hopeless'. I believe in a stitch in time.
Response to IrishAyes (Reply #13)
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HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Why do you think so?
raccoon
(31,088 posts)even one other man who's bigger than he is.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)I know that and should have made it clear but didn't. At the very least, I should've said "doesn't choose to control his temper".
Actually, I also wish I'd said something about how very few women will beat themselves black and blue or break their own bones just to get an 'innocent' man in trouble.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Getting real sick of this shit. Yes, it happens. Statistically, not very worthwhile for you to bring it up in this manner.
In fact, it has no relevance to the OP.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)What happened to rules about cruel and unusual punishment? What do they do when children are involved? Talk about kicking people when they're down! This is NOT going to win officials any friends among the poor and dispossessed, who might be weak individually but can wreck almighty havoc in concentrated rage.
I never heard of such a thing, and it sickens and saddens me.
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)the stupidest law on the books. sonna baka na!
Orrex
(63,084 posts)Kind an asshole law, no?
I might understand if a person routinely calls the police and then routinely declines to press charges, but if someone is actually being abused and charges are being filed, then why should the victim be punished?
Rather than "three strikes" against the victim, it's more like a "get out of jail free" ordinance for the abuser!
Way to go, Norristown!
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Which may have something to do with it.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)And sometimes the victim decides to get violent with Leo when you arrest the suspect, also a large number of victims keep going back and not following through on court etc. its always the same people diffirent day, same shit.
nakocal
(527 posts)SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Violent confrontation, maybe with a gun.
So much for the police being your friend.
KT2000
(20,544 posts)There are regulars who call the police on their spouses as if the police are part of their dysfunctional marriage. They are a pain to police. Some of the regulars start their drinking on Friday night and by Saturday and embroiled in nasty fights. After so many calls, something should occur that would address the underlying problems - an abuser and a woman who does not leave an abuser. This could be court ordered counseling, anger management, alcohol treatment, etc.
Other than that - if there is to be a 3 strikes provision, it should be used against the abuser - as in long sentences. They could fast-track the woman for welfare etc. so financial support is not a reason to not call when she needs help.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Most domestic violence is reciprocal, and absent consequences for both parties, the cycle of violence won't be interrupted.
raccoon
(31,088 posts)men who are murdered, are murdered by their wives or girlfriends?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Objectives. We sought to examine the prevalence of reciprocal (i.e., perpetrated by both partners) and nonreciprocal intimate partner violence and to determine whether reciprocity is related to violence frequency and injury.
Methods. We analyzed data on young US adults aged 18 to 28 years from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, which contained information about partner violence and injury reported by 11 370 respondents on 18761 heterosexual relationships.
Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).
Conclusions. The context of the violence (reciprocal vs nonreciprocal) is a strong predictor of reported injury. Prevention approaches that address the escalation of partner violence may be needed to address reciprocal violence.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)In looking at the data:
a total of 18761 relationships is the size of the group measured.
24% of the relationships had "some" violence. ( violence not defined, btw)
So, 24% of 18761 =4, 502 had "some" violence.
Of the 4, 502 "some violence", 49.7% were reciprocally violent.( not defined, btw)
Let's call it 50% to make my caculator happy.
50% of 4,502 "some violence" = 2,251 were reciprocally violent.
2, 251 out of 18, 761 relationships is NOT Most domestic violence is reciprocal,
as you wrote in your post 20.
And I have problems with other points in the study as well.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Relationships in which the violence is unilateral is 50.3% of all violent relationships. In 70% of those relationships, the violence is perpetrated by the woman.
70% of 50.3% = 35.21%
35.21% + 49.7% = 84.91% of all women in violent relationships are themselves either perpetrators or combatants.
The stereotype of domestic violence is only accurate 15.09% of the time.
KT2000
(20,544 posts)but if there is evidence of physical violence such as injuries, the one who inflicted the injuries deserves a long prison sentence.
What may precede that is often a couple well practiced in goading each other into a fight. Physical injury though is the line where the police must take action.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What you describe is clearly the way law enforcement deals with the issue, but it obviously isn't solving the problem.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it's contained under an umbrella law that allows eviction for police calls to a residence and back when I was renting in Mpls, a woman that lived in the same apt building as me was evicted for calling the police on her boyfriend who was beating her up
jmowreader
(50,447 posts)Woman's boyfriend beats the shit out of her. She calls cops, gets TRO against him.
He comes back, beats the shit out of her again. She calls cops.
He comes back again..."what you gonna do, (demeaning description of woman)? They're gonna let me out tomorrow and I'll help the sheriff throw your shit on the lawn." Even more fun: most rental applications ask if you've ever been evicted, and it's grounds for denial. You therefore have two choices: learn to enjoy getting the shit beat out of you regularly or forget about living indoors ever again.
Welcome to Pottsylvania, where we have more mean per square inch than other countries have per square mile.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Fuck them!
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)that will solve everything. A wedding ring is the solution for Domestic Violence, and of course, POVERTY!!!! Isn't that what GW said???????
PDJane
(10,103 posts)I hit something like this. This is just....outrageous, stupid, blame-the-victim crap.
I literally want to hit something.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)What a fucked up place!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)to remember I could've chosen a worse place to retire.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)a way for me to uncover at least the identity of the poster whose replies to me got busted? Or if you saw them beforehand, I'd appreciate a DU mail with the particulars including content. The only reason I want to know is to be aware of who not to let on the My People list when that's available. I don't care if the person self-deleted or not, and I certainly don't plan to follow up in any way. I just want to know who it was.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)There's no need to add him to any list - he's no longer a member of DU.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Does DU ban isp addies, though? To prevent jerks reregistering? At least if they only have one provider?