Breaking: when you ignore countries with low gun ownership rate and high homicide rate. ..

[Recursion]

... Then gun ownership is strongly correlated with homicide.

Why would you ignore countries with low firearms ownership and high homicide rates? Ask the austerity guys.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Which country do you have in mind ?

.

[el_bryanto]

2. I think you are trying to make a point here

But I'm not sure what it is. What countries have low gun ownership and high homicide rate? How do the correlate with the United States in other ways?

Bryant

[Recursion]

7. Brazil, Mexico, Russia (nt)

[el_bryanto]

10. Yes but those countries have pretty different cultures, don't they?

I mean they have different economies and different political structures. There was another post at DU about this - they really aren't that comparable.

Bryant

[pipoman]

16. Those things also

distinguishes the US (which has always been more violent than many European countries) from other nations..

[DanTex]

28. We are not more violent that European nations.

We have a much higher homicide rate, due almost entirely to other gun homicide. But we do not have a significantly higher rate of violent crime in general (robbery, rape, etc.)

[JVS]

25. The US isn't exactly a Western European social-democracy either.

We don't do healthcare, we don't do mitigation of inequality, we don't do good safety nets. Why should we consider them to be our statistical peers other than the fact that we want similar quality of life?

[DanTex]

31. Because they are the closest thing we have to peers.

If we take the Human Development Index, which is a measure of overall "well-being", then they are in fact our peers, even adjusted for inequality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
I should also note that, in terms of overall violent crime rate, those countries are our peers. We are only way above the rest in homicide -- gun homicide specifically.

On the other hand, Russia, China, Brazil, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia (which are among the datapoints that the OP wants to include in order to "disprove" the link between guns and homicide) are obviously not our peers.

[Recursion]

36. But, seriously, have you even tried a regression against access to mental health care?

We realy aren't making that up.l

[JVS]

37. Or even examining where violence happens and seeing if the material and social conditions there....

more closely resemble affluent Western European democracies or if the conditions more closely approximate less developed countries. Appalachia, the Northeastern rustbelt, the rural South, and the ghettos of large American metropolises may very well present levels of deprivation in terms of wealth, education, and standard of living that make comparison to affluent Western European social democracies invalid and would instead approximate conditions in poorer countries like those of Southern and Eastern Europe.

[lastlib]

3. can you identify one of those countries, please?

would appreciate the information. Thanx!

[Recursion]

9. Yes, give me ten minutes

I have to get home first. I've been learning to sketch with pastels and am out by the fountains

[Recursion]

23. See below. Also South Africa

Which is excluded from almost every criminological data regression because they have such an absurdly high murder rate.

[JaneyVee]

4. Low firearm ownership doesn't mean guns aren't readily available everywhere illegally.

But which countries are you referring to?

[Recursion]

21. That's also true here

It is also the case that cities with strict gun ownership laws have high de facto gun ownership rates.

[cali]

5. name the countries.

[Recursion]

18. Brazil, Russia, Mexico, China, India, Indonesia. (nt)

[DanTex]

32. Don't forget Turkey, Mexico, Argentina, and South Africa!

[Recursion]

34. Can we agree no criminologist knows what to do with South Africa? (nt)

[DanTex]

35. South Africa ranks 121st in HDI, below Honduras and Egypt and Botswana.

They are 79th in per capita GDP, right behind Iran.

They rank 180th in life expectancy, at 51 years. Lower than Rwanda.

No, I don't think that South Africa is a good point of comparison for the United States.

[edhopper]

6. Because i would guess that this

is about some bullshit third world countries and not other developed peer nations.

[img]?1365387268[/img]

[upaloopa]

8. Is this a new low? Take some African country

we're war lords kill thousands is that one of your stats?
Pure bull shit made up obfuscation. Again nobody wants to take away your guns. They want less gun violence and you should join in rather than post this tripe.

[CTyankee]

14. Isn't it amazing? They do this and then expect us to believe them when they say they

they don't agree with the NRA and they want to prevent gun violence, yadda, yadda. I've had to PRY it out of them when I ask them flatly "OK, tell me YOUR plan." You'd think they'd be clamoring to get their gun safety ideas out there and building support among other "law abiding gun owners." Instead, look at what we get...

[pipoman]

20. "nobody" really isn't accurate...

[upaloopa]

29. Nobody with any power to do so wants to take your guns away.

It is about time gunners drop the meme that Obama, liberals, progressives, or anybody else is planning tactics to confiscate guns. If we could put that to rest maybe we could get down to real issues. What is going on is manufacturers keep this meme alive and gunners buy into it like flies eat shit.
If a bunch of DUers post a thread wanting to confiscate guns you know as well as I they are just as full of shit as this OP is.
As long as we stay in the realm of bull shit we are not really talking about the real problems we are just indulging in a pissing contest. Ignore the extremes on either side and let's do some good.

[DanTex]

30. It's beyond absurd.

[morningfog]

11. Gun pimps are boring.

And pollute this site with right wing bullshit.

[Robb]

12. Aw.

[GeorgeGist]

13. Broken ...

[DanTex]

15. When you try to compare the US to Russia, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and China

you are obviously cherry-picking your data. This is why you only find these kinds of analyses on right-wing gun blogs, and not in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Among first world democracies, there is a strong correlation between gun ownership and homicide. Your claim that I ignored countries with low gun ownership and high homicide is false. On the contrary, you and that right-wing blogger specifically sought out countries with low gun ownership and high homicide which do not meet the criteria of first-world democracy, and added them to the dataset specifically to throw off the correlation.

The regression I ran, which is similar to what the studies from the Harvard School of Public Health, which were published in peer-reviewed journals, selected purely based on human development index, a criteria widely used in social sciences for this purpose.

[Recursion]

17. And the reason we shouldn't is...?

Waiting.. Oh... right, if you include those data, they don't make your point.

Good reason.

[DanTex]

26. Because they aren't stable first-world countries. Are you serious?

This isn't "fun with numbers". The point is to try to figure out what the effect of gun ownership is, and so to do that, you try as best you can to hold other things besides gun ownership constant.

I've asked before, maybe I'll get an answer now. How would you react to someone using the fact that Russia and Brazil have single-payer healthcare systems, yet their health statistics are far worse that ours, as a rebuttal to the observation that other first-world nations, which provide some form of universal coverage, have equal or better outcomes at far less cost?

[Recursion]

24. So here's the thing: you say "Recursion includes Brazil, Mexico, Russia, and India. That's absurd!"

I say "DanTx excludes Brazil, Mexico, Russia, and India. That's absurd!"

I'm pretty sure I'm right, but you're pretty sure you're right too (never mind that you're the one excluding actual data). Where do we go from here?

[DanTex]

27. Where we go from here is we use do an apples-to-apples comparison between

wealthy first-world nations similar to the US, using the Human Development Index as a selection criterion, the way a social scientist would.

We don't toss Russia and Brazil into the mix in order to hide the results.

[spanone]

19. background checks for all gun ownership...PERIOD

[Recursion]

22. I agree with you on that.

Glad to know there's some common ground here.

[rdharma]

33. Were Dagestan and Chechnya included in your figures, Recursion?

Oh, that's right....... they're in RUSSIA!

And Mexico with it's flood of illegal arms from wars in Central America and the Zapatista uprising and drug cartels in it's own territory?

Low "firearm ownership" in these high murder rate countries, you say? Oh, brother!

[Sheepshank]

38. "...when you ignore countries with low gun ownership rate and high homicide rate"....

then you find what's behind that high homicide rate and work on those laws.