Why does Apple keep gouging it's customers?

[denem]

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 07:12 PM - Edit history (2)

Answer: It doesn't.

Apple released it's Q2 2013 financial statement today reporting a
37.5% Gross Margin.

Outrageous? If you say so. Q2 2013 results:-

Intel's (hardware) Gross Margin: 51.7%
Microsoft (software) Gross Margin: 76.6%

Apple (hardware+software) 37.5%

WinTel assemblers HP and Dell make 22%. On those margins Apple product prices would fall by 13%.

Without a doubt, you can buy a Galaxy Phone for (a lot) less than an iPhone. Apple's engineering costs more to produce, even if they are both assembled by Foxconn.

No I don't like walled gardens (that's another question, and it is important)

but is Apple gouging?

If you say so.

(Edit - some derogatory language removed)

[MADem]

1. Some would say "There's a sucker born every minute." Others like the stuff.

I think they are overpriced and proprietary.

I know other people think they're great and "easy to use."

Whatever.

If people want to pay those prices, let them, I say.

If it's worth it to you, and you are content with what you get--who is anyone to argue with that? Enjoy...

[denem]

3. OK Samsung is the biggest Korean Chernobyl,

representing 21% of Korean GDP. It's Chairman is a convicted criminal. If you want to love them, get right in to bed.

Overpriced and overpriced and proprietary?

Overpriced? If you lie to the SEC your ass in on the line. A 37% gross margin is not overpricing.

Proprietary? No argument there, but as I I said in the OP, that is another issue. Do you run Windows? If you want to argue Microsoft, the acme of Proprietary is better, go right ahead.

[MADem]

13. Don't get mad at me. I'm saying to each his own.

I have a "dumb" phone and a cheap laptop.

[MattBaggins]

25. If you lie to the SEC your ass in on the line

Still wiping the tears from my eyes. You should have a full hour special on comedy central.

[denem]

57. The chairman of Samsung is a convicted criminal,

guilty of fraud, embezzlement and tax evasion. He was pardoned by the ruling Saenuri Party two years after conviction.

Samsung, a Korean corporation, is not subject to SEC supervision.

[MattBaggins]

59. Motorola, HTC, LG, Nokia.... and many others.

[denem]

63. are criminals?

I tell you the CEO's I believe are criminals: Citibank, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Monsanto, Halliburton, and not forgetting, everything Koch.

[MattBaggins]

70. Sometimes Apple users tend to live in insular little worlds

Many of them think that Samsung is Android or that Samsung is the only alternative to iCrap.

[denem]

74. Insular is 1.30am and trying to restore Active Directory from a backup.

Yeah. I know, Samsung is not Android, and can't own FOSS. Praise the Lord.

[cui bono]

125. They're threatened by the Galaxy S III.

And very upset that the iPhone has lost its market share.

I mean this OP is obviously a fanboy post. Even made a deceiving headline to lure people in. Next up is lawsuits claiming copyright infringements on posts, even if they are saying things that have bee being said for ages.

[Montana redneck]

81. Jon Corzine

[denem]

86. LOL!

... I can't refuse.

[Sgent]

2. Microsoft

isn't a hardware company (other than xbox and a few small areas).

Intel is not comparable to either -- its a manufacturer first and a software company second -- but it has no consumer business of any size.

Dell's margin is 21%, and HP's is 24% -- and both of those have much higher margin businesses than Apple (enterprise consulting, servers, and networking) in addition to consumer goods.

That being said, I do think *most* of Apples stuff is fairly reasonably priced given:

1) The fact that they offer form factors not available anywhere else, and often with better specs than "comparable" items.
2) Many people prefer the apple ecosystem and software.
3) On an apples to apples comparison, their hardware tends to be the same price as equivalent hardware from dell, et al (if its even available).

Apple IMHO tends to be price competitive at the midrange and upper-middle range. They offer no lower end hardware at all, and their workstation offerings are a bit nuts.... They also offer no servers which is disappointing given some of the software in their toolkit.

[denem]

5. Apple offers no servers?

I agree, but why should they? Off the shelf hardware + Linux is the way to go. There's a server app for OS X, but they discontinued their expensive server hardware some time ago. IMO, severs should be open. The Microsoft ethos of own the server, own the client has run it's course.

BTW

[Sgent]

133. None that I would deploy

The mac-mini which is what most people use is a bad platform for data center deployment -- or even small office deployment. I like BSD and Mach as a server OS, but the hardware isn't there from apple.

Where can I buy a 4 hour on-site service contract, dual power supplies, internal storage (I can hook-up an iSCSI san, but that's a huge overkill for a small installation, no ECC memory, etc.

[cui bono]

8. Correct. Apples to oranges. n/t

[denem]

11. Intel is a hardware business with a 52% margin,

Microsoft is a software company with a 76% margin.

Apple is a software+hardware business with a 37% margin. You point is?

[stevenleser]

21. Apple is a B to C hardware company. Intel is a B to B hardware company, Microsoft is a B to C

software company. The typical margins for each kind of company is different. This is not a valid comparison.

That said, I own an iPhone, an iPad and an Apple TV, so, obviously, I think there is good value for the price...

[denem]

50. Apple designs their iOS CPUs.

B to C? I don't get you. Seriously, is there an A in your strata? Apple designs it's CPU's, so does Intel. Apple uses a a second party (Samsung) to manufacture them, Intel does not (they have the best fabs anywhere).

Intel sell direct to the public, so does MS. Intel sells direct to OEMs, so does MS. Apple sell exclusively to consumers, is that what you are saying?

How is this relevant to gross margins?

[stevenleser]

82. B to C = Primarily a Business to consumer operation. B to B = Business to Business. nt

[denem]

87. Ok, so is Apple a B to C?

Does that mean that should expect a gross margin % of other B to C corporations?

[stevenleser]

93. Apple is definitely B to C, and they should be similar to other B to C hardware companies.

Like Dell, HP, Samsung, etc.

[denem]

101. Um .. Dell, HP

does it have to be a race to the bottom?

[Honeycombe8]

172. I don't buy Apple 'cause of the cost, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's worth it.

Apple is in some cases a level above some other products. It costs more for a reason. But as a frugal person who doesn't care much for the latest and greatest gizmos, I opt for bargain items.

As for price gouging, if people are willing to pay a certain amount for an item, and there are other similar items to buy for less, it's not price gouging, is it? I don't think so.

[olddots]

4. And here we go

I on the other hand think that both formats leave much room for improvement and all of this stuff should be made in the country that thought it all up =America ......now you say " but they'd be too expensive " Americans would have good jobs and be able to afford something they had a say and stake in .....but noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[denem]

6. Do South Koreans have good jobs?

Why yes, I knew it was popcorn time.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

137. Why is it immoral to for people in other countries to make stuff?

That does not strike me as logical...

[cui bono]

7. Yes. A laptop with lesser specs than mine was going for twice as much.

So yes. They overcharge.

[denem]

9. But they don't make a super profit from it.

If you wan't top argue that a 37% profit is excessive, OK.

Maybe their costs are higher? Maybe an American bus business rewards it's US employees more than Leveno in China or Samsung in Korea?

Quality has a cost. HP and Dell have plastic.

[cui bono]

10. US employees? You sure about that?

I know from the Foxcomm fiasco that they make iphones in China, are you saying they make their computers in the USA?

[denem]

12. FoxcCONN does the final assembly for Apple, Dell, HP, Microsoft and Samsung.

Your point is? Foxconn treats it's Apple products assemblers worse? Link?

[cui bono]

124. You're changing the debate. Saying it's no worse than other companies does not make it okay.

That's like saying we can't criticize Obama because GWB was or Romney would be much worse. (One of which isn't entirely true, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

Also, I don't believe they are the assembly plant, I think they manufacture the parts.

Here's your links about Foxconn:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57444213-37/foxconn-working-conditions-slammed-by-workers-rights-group/
Exhausting workloads, humiliating discipline, and cramped dormitories are still "the norm" for workers at Foxconn factories in China, according to a report released today that details alleged working conditions at the manufacturing giant.

Managers at the company, which manufactures hardware for companies such as Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Dell, and Sony, often discipline factory workers by forcing them to write and read aloud "confession letters" and to clean toilets, according to a report released by the workers rights group Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehavior (SACOM).
...
Living conditions remain "cramped and unpleasant," according to the report, which found 20 to 30 people typically sharing 3-bedroom apartments stocked with bunk beds. Use of high-energy electrical appliances such as hair dryers, kettles, and laptops is prohibited. Employees who violate the rules risk having their appliances confiscated and not returned until they leave the company's employment.

http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pro/proshow-176.html
On June 14th, a Foxconn worker jumped to his death from his apartment building in Chengdu, marking the 18th reported worker suicide at Foxconn factories in China in just over two years[1]. Many additional suicides may have gone unreported[2][3]. But these deaths and the focus on conditions at Foxconn reflect only a portion of the troubling conditions at Apple suppliers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/foxconn-working-conditions_n_1558415.html
Working conditions at Foxconn's gargantuan Chinese factories that assemble Apple Inc's slick gadgets have barely improved despite pledges this year to halt labor violations, workers' rights activists and employees said on Thursday.

[denem]

140. I am precisely on point.

You have turned a discussion about Apple's US employees into the conditions of work at Foxconn.

[cui bono]

149. Um, no. You said Apple's US employees and then other companies foreign employees

and then challenged me for links when I asked you if you were sure about Apple having US employees.

Anyway, you don't really want to discuss anything, it's clear from your posts in this entire thread. So go ahead and continue your true mission and purpose of this thread.

[denem]

153. That is just wrong.

This began with my statement - "Maybe their costs are higher? Maybe an American... business rewards it's US employees more than Leveno in China or Samsung in Korea?"

You replied US employees - are you sure about that?

Yes I am sure .

1. Yes I am sure that Apple has US employees

2. Yes I am sure Apple, headquartered in the US, pays it's US employees, US pay rates, and pays above average at that.

3. Yes I am sure Leveno, headquartered in China pays it's employees there Chinese pay rates, and Samsung pays Korean pay rates.

You wanted to talk about Foxconn.

Foxconn is a contractor that does assembly for all three of these companies.

You wanted to talk about the working conditions at Foxconn. Fair enough.

But yes I am sure Apple has US employees working for them at US pay rates at Apple HQ and elsewhere.

[GeorgeGist]

14. Still gouging.

[SoCalDem]

15. They do it because thety can get away with it.

If people stopped lining up days before the next new gadget is released..and if they stopped buying the fancy new gadgets, the prices would probably go down

$600 for a damned phone??? and then hundreds a month just to keep using it?? (I know the phones are more than just phones, but jeezlouise)

[hobbit709]

16. because the i in the Apple products stands for "idiot"

[denem]

41. ihobbit nt.

[we can do it]

178. ilaughed

[Aerows]

186. iSMH

[dembotoz]

17. what the market will bear

cult status means higher prices

[treestar]

18. I have found them to be pretty good about post purchase customer service

Buy the warranty and they will replace anything without hesitation. They have a $99 annual program you can use to go in and learn how to use the programs and such.

[tabbycat31]

45. a lot of companies are

And when it comes to phones, many carriers will stand behind their phones (Sprint does).

[FSogol]

19. They are a cult and can get away with it?

[denem]

22. Merci beaucoup

... merde

[stevenleser]

23. Was that necessary, even as a joke? nt

[leeroysphitz]

26. A little bit...

[denem]

31. I took your comment in 'good humour',

le mac. Thanks.

[d_r]

32. please don't use "gay" as a slur

even as good natured joke. It is just continuing stereotypes and ugliness even though that isn't what you mean to do.

[leeroysphitz]

36. Please don't lecture me. I don't require your input. If you have an issue hit the alert button. n/t

[d_r]

43. I said "please" because I was trying not to be a dick

Come on.

[cui bono]

126. So you are proud of your bigotry? Why are you here then? n/t

[JCMach1]

24. Yeah, but my plastic Samsung will still be working long after your Apple

hits the landfill..

[MattBaggins]

30. My plastic Samsung has tumbled from my hand or pockets a few times

and is still fine. Modern plastics can be better than metals depending on the application.

Have numerous friends with iCandy that have smashed screens or broken phones.

Got a free older generation Samsung with a broken screen. Fixed the screen and digitizer for under $50 and gave it to my kids. They also had an older iphone I got off a college student. The iphone sits in a drawer never used. They hate the thing.

[denem]

37. Do tell!

[MattBaggins]

38. A sample set of one, does not a study make

but you know that don't you?

[denem]

42. That was an Android site: What is your sample set?

Pray tell.

[MattBaggins]

44. Coming from an android site means nothing.

My sample set is as useful as your post, as in not at all.

If you prefer iCrap please feel free to use it. I will continue to buy used equipment that is still better than iGarbage and slap custom roms on them. My 7 year old loves her Nook with CM and thinks her friends apple pads are crap, which they are.

[denem]

46. Whatever you say.

I believe you to be impartial and fair, without one iota of proof.

[Aerows]

169. Speak it, brother

Slap custom bins on them and ... Yep.

That's why I don't buy Apple.

[JCMach1]

162. My old Samsung Black Jack is still alive and kicking with a relative in Nairobi

it still works great... only fix has been a battery replacement.

[spanone]

27. if they are gouging, people only need to stop buying their products.

if people like their products.....

[denem]

40. In Q2 they bought 12% more product

only the gross margin declined.

[liberal N proud]

28. Because the customers keep buying their products

They have many believing their products are superior to all others and because they believe such, they will pay the price.

[Apophis]

29. My plastic Samsung was cheaper than an iPhone 5 and it's twice as powerful.

It's got a 1.6 GHz quad-core Cortex-A9 processor and 2 GB of RAM. Another great feature is NFC (something Apple doesn't have) and Gorilla glass 2. iPhone 5 have a dual-core processor and it's weak.

Spare me the "Apple is better than everything else" talk. Apple is going down, and going down hard. Good riddance.

[MattBaggins]

33. But but but Apple has "retina" displays

retina has to be better or they wouldn't have used a fancy name like retina.

[denem]

34. Ah ... the Galaxy SIII trails the iPhone 5 in every spec,

staring with Java script, and going downhill from there.

The SIII has less than one third the graphics mark for games. Sorry.

(Fools and their money are often parted)

[MattBaggins]

48. So now it's make shit up

gotcha

[Apophis]

53. I have a Galaxy Note 2.

The S III still has better specs than iPhone 5.

[denem]

60. The SIII does not better than the iPhone 5 on any performance spec.

If you would like to cite a link, please do.

[cui bono]

127. Where's your link? n/t

[denem]

143. Link below. SIII - half/third graphics performance, slower browsing, a third less battery life.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6330/the-iphone-5-review

[Aerows]

187. Galaxy Note 2 is a phablet

Apple doesn't have anything like it.

I want one. I can't even buy one yet because even AT&T doesn't have one for love or money.

I'll get in your way in line to get one, and I'm not even a Samsung fan, the hardware and design is just THAT good. It's perfect for me.

You can have every iPhone in the universe, every other small screened thing you can think of, I want THAT.

I know, you think it's too big, but it fits in my purse and that's all the portability that it needs. Hell, it fits in the pocket of my Levis. That's again, all I need in portability and I get QUAD CORE.

But I don't have one

I can't buy one yet.

[Aerows]

171. Phuck

I want a Galaxy Note 2 so bad it hurts. I can't get one via AT&T because they are out of them. I want one so bad it hurts.

Phuck Apple, GN2 is what I want with the nice sized screen and hefty processor.

And I'll probably bug you to ask about the stylus.

Sorry to sound so enthusiastic, I'm just pissed that I can't get one from my (AT&T) carrier because they are out.

[Aerows]

173. GN2

I can't even buy one!!!!!

I tried to, but even AT&T doesn't have one.

It's damn dream phone.

[denem]

79. If you have any evidence to the contrary

link us in.

[EOTE]

165. The iPhone 5 is newer, yet trails the GSIII in pretty much every metric.

In spite of the silly shit you spew from your mouth which you expect people to take seriously. Much slower and less responsive due to a quickly aging dual core. Smaller, lower resolution screen (but it's got that cool Retina name). No NFC, no FM tuner. Plus you're stuck with that godawful iTunes, becoming more of a burden with every successive generation of iPhone. You have fun with all those hours you spend synching your device, I can download torrents (or pretty much whatever else I want) directly to my GSIII for free. The GSIV takes the GSIII's already impressive lead over the iPhone 5 and doesn't stop short of thoroughly embarrassing Apple.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/136291-iphone-5-benchmarks-slower-than-the-galaxy-s3-faster-than-the-nexus-7

Yep, a fool and his money are often parted. You prove that every week or so.

[Aerows]

167. JIT

No one cares about Java anymore.

[we can do it]

170. Yep cheaper

[Sekhmets Daughter]

35. Haven't looked at this quarter's statement...

however, in previous years the margins on iPhones were over 50%.

Saying that a 37.5% margin is not gouging because other companies gouge even more, is rather like saying 'I don't mind being blind in one eye...the only alternative is being blind in both' You should mind being blind in one eye...and demand a better alternative.

[denem]

39. I believe Apple should cut their prices

always have. But overall I do not think they are gouging.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

49. I'm an Apple user...

I've been using an iMac computer since 2004 and just recently replaced it...that's a lot of years of usage...I have an iPhone because I switched carriers just as the iPhone 5 was coming out and the 4S was a sweet deal. It is almost impossible, these days, to get a 'dumb' phone that will do what I want, so although I have little need for a phone with as many apps as the smartphones contain, I opted to replace my aging dumb phone, when I left Verizon, with the 4S. I may, someday, purchase an iPad...

I guess what I am trying to say is that I like Apple products, but I do not care for their business model. I don't mind the price of their products, I do mind that so much is made by cheap foreign labor and they underpay the staff at their stores.

[denem]

65. Above all, I don't care for Apple's censorship

be it apps or services. Family friendly is a nice selling point in the US, but please, spare me from would-be Big Brothers.

I like UNIX and LINUX. so, I like Mac OS X and iOS..

I do not like Steve Ballmer ...

[Sekhmets Daughter]

69. I'm afraid I do not know anything about

Apple censorship! I'd be very interested in knowing what you mean by that and the reference to Big Brother.

[denem]

75. Apple's iCloud mail junked any message with the words

'Barely Legal Teens', supposedly on copyright grounds. If I buy an email service, I do not want the provider snooping around for contraband however well-meaning their intentions.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

80. I can see both sides of that issue...

I was raising teenage daughters in the 1990s.... The need to protect foolish teens from themselves runs headlong into the distaste for censorship. It is a conundrum.... What I find more disturbing is the constant monitoring of everywhere I go the sake of advertisers.... not an Apple issue. It drives me nuts and the only thing I can do about it is install ad block, so at least I am not constantly reminded of my lack of privacy!

I only use iCloud when I write something in Pages that I don't wish to keep on my desktop. I'm not familiar with the Apple iCloud mail...
is that the one with the postage stamp icon? I really need to explore my computer!

[denem]

85. The postage stamp icon covers all the services

email, Gmail, Yahoo whatever. And it includes iCloud email.

If you offer email (as Apple does) you either claim a safe harbour or actively monitor its content.

Users thought iCloud was a vanilla email service until 'Barely legal Teens' mails were deleted. Transparency (for me) is what counts. If you are offering an email service, the TOS should make clear what you are buying into. I have no time for 'Barely Legal' anything, but if the technology gives the provider (Apple) the ability to kill communication I Want To Know.


BTW. Tim Cook, Apple is the only out-homosexual of a Fortune 500 I am aware of. Steve Jobs picked him. The thing itself speaks.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

88. Thanks!

I've used Gmail for so long, I never bothered to look into anything else. I do agree, transparency is important...I wonder why they didn't provide it.

I'm not sure what your last statement says about the issue...

[denem]

91. My last statement is a BTW observation.

The 'Barely Legal Teens' incident happened under Cook's stewardship. Jobs designed iCloud email. I am pretty certain the result would have been the same had he lived.

Jobs appointed a gay man as his successor. It is as it is, nothing more nor less. I look forward to the day that such a thing is not newsworthy.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

95. Got it!

Glad it was not meant as anything more! Thanks for your patience re: explaining iCloud mail etc.

[denem]

99. (deleted)

nt

[denem]

100. You are most welcome.

They tell me - 'You are such a baby;. Yes, I guess. I am. EOM

[Cronus Protagonist]

164. ^^^^^^ this is the crux of the matter ^^^^^^

I wish I could recommend a post.

[Aerows]

174. That's not what is hurting them

it's the same thing that has always hurt apple - closed software. You can't use an Apple product without it regulating when you go to the bathroom.

God I can't wait to get my hands on the phone (Galaxy Note 2) that someone else in this thread reportedly has, so then I can quit slugging it out in such threads and sit back, benign and replete, knowing I have kickass hardware.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

175. Crazy Lady!...

[Aerows]

176. I know

I'm hardware crazy, but I swear, I speak the truth

[jeff47]

179. I used to think that way

That I wanted complete control, be able to do anything with the hardware.

Then I got married, had kids and all the other stuff that. And the downside of such access became much more apparent - because anything can get on that system, all sorts of malware can get on that system.

So now I'm happily living in a walled garden when it comes to phones. So that I don't have to worry about it - Apple's track record on keeping malware out of the app store is pretty good.

Desktops and servers, OTOH, benefit far more from "install anything".

[Aerows]

184. You just guessed

what I do for a living.

On the last line, the latter part. Not the having kids thing...

[edhopper]

47. What is it with Apple customers

their superiority/persecution complex is strange.
Apple makes very good, but expensive products.
No reason not to buy them, no reason not to buy something less expensive that works too.
I have been a Dell customer for over 15 years. I have always had a good experience with their products and their customer service.
Some people have not had good experiences with Dell, It doesn't offend me personally, and I don't find the need to go on the internet and defend them.
There are benefits from owning an apple product, there are also benefits from owning a BMW, but my Dodge gets me where I want to go just the same.

[kentauros]

51. I agree.

I don't care what brand of tool you use (that's all any computer really is, anyway.) All I care about is what you do or produce with that tool. The skills matter more than the brand of the tools

[denem]

52. It's not hard to explain

why UNIX or LINUX is technically superior to Windows. But (as I know well) Windows requires a lot of technical support, and has a captive market.

[edhopper]

56. I don't understand

what that has to do with my post.
I use windows because it has a better infrastructure and meets my needs. LINUX is to DIY for my use.
More power to those that use it.

[MattBaggins]

54. Apple is a cult

If you ever have the opportunity to meet Scientologists; compare them to apple fanatics. You will be amazed.

L Ron Hubbard single handily won WW2
Steve Jobs led Jesus out of the crypt with an iPhone

It is unbelievable.

[edhopper]

58. I think that is unfair

Steve Jobs and those he worked with changed the face of technology. From adapting the Xerox PARC developments to the home PC to the smart phone and tablet, his accomplishments are real and great, unlike the scam artist Hubbard.
But I do think apple owners are a little too misty eyed.

[denem]

61. Microsoft is a suicide cult.

(not to be taken seriously)

[edhopper]

64. Well

you are just as wacky as the Apple nuts.

[denem]

68. No nut should be taken seriously,

... like I said. These pieces are broken.

[Jamastiene]

156. I know you are, but what am I?

Please don't answer that.

I don't get these "my hardware is better than your software" arguments either. I makes me picture someone with high priced clothes standing in the streets to proclaim their clothes are superior to everyone else's clothes. It makes no sense.

The seriousness of the arguments do make for some decent Wednesday night entertainment on DU though.

[MADem]

163. Reminds me of this.....

[wtmusic]

90. LOL

[MattBaggins]

62. Many Many Many people other than Steve Jobs changed the face of Tech

Steve Jobs is given WAY more credit than he is due.

[denem]

66. Like Steve Ballmer?

nt.

[MattBaggins]

73. I'll see you Steve Jobs and raise you a Linus Torvalds and a James Gosling

[denem]

145. Linus Torvalds and a James Gosling are heroes.

FOSS kept the datacenters open, and much more. The OP was about Apple's pricing practices.

[MattBaggins]

146. Your OP was derailed three posts in

[denem]

150. I'll take your word for it.

[jeff47]

181. I don't know about that.

Torvalds came up with a different way to do what other people were already doing...by copying what other people were doing.

And the absurd fear about diamond-shaped inheritance trees that plagues Java diminishes Gosling greatly IMO.

Don't get me wrong. Both guys have had a major effect. But they didn't change computing as much as Jobs.

[edhopper]

67. That may be true

and i did say those he worked with.
But i was responding to the Jobs=Hubbard inanity.

[denem]

71. Steve Jobs was L Ron Hubbard!

got it now

[edhopper]

72. Oh!

your being silly.
Got it.

[denem]

77. Yes

life is too short to be serious!

[MattBaggins]

136. The way he is idolized would lead one to make that comparison

[cui bono]

129. You can compare them to Republicans too.

My friend, who is a progressive has become a machead. He works at an internet start up company and was looking to venture into apps and such and had always told me Android has no apps and there weren't enough users to worry about Android... blah blah blah... So about 6 months ago or so, I had been reading articles about how Android had the biggest market share both worldwide and in the US. So I mentioned that to him and his response was "You may think that's true but..." I sent him the links as soon as I could and never heard a peep back. But the point is that he just has a knee jerk response because he has been brainwashed into simply believing all things Apple are better and mightier in all ways. He drank the iKoolaid and is living in the iBubble.

*Note: I have a Mac desktop and a PC laptop and an Android phone. I use the Mac because it runs Final Cut Pro that the PC won't and I need it for my profession. And I actually underpaid because I bought it used from my friend's business and he gave me a great deal. I don't think the OS of either is better or worse, just a tiny bit different. I use the pc for my hobbies because people write all kinds of software tools I can use that aren't ported to Macs, and my pc was half the price of a MBP and has better specs. I have an Android phone because I don't want to live in a controlled ecosystem and they're better phones and I can customize it to my liking.

[Logical]

151. If I was apple I would sell toasters, clocks, etc. Their fanboys would buy anything!! n-t

[onenote]

76. Why does anyone give a rat's ass what type of phone or computer another person buys?

Seriously. Why do non-Apple users care about the decision other people make to buy an Apple product. And why do Apple users care about the decision other people make to purchase non-product products?

Do you all get exercised over what type of TV set other people purchase (OH NO, HE'S A SONYIST! GAG ME, SHE'S FALLEN FOR THE LG PROPAGANDA!).

Some folks have seriously screwed up priorities.

[denem]

78. In these 15 minutes of fame

perceptions are more important than promotions. If Apple has a gross margin of 37.5%, it worth a post.

[tabbycat31]

120. I don't think others brag as much as Apple users

[onenote]

122. so what?

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

I get it that Apple users often brag, but I don't understand why anyone who isn't an Apple user cares. I'm sure that there are other products with intense brand loyalty but I've never seen the kind of juvenile back and forth over whose product sucks and whose product doesn't suck the way I see it whenever when of these computer/smartphone threads gets going.

I assume that people choose products for a variety of reasons and each person may weigh those reasons differently and come to a different decision. It doesn't affect me, even if they tell me how pleased they are or even how much I should consider making a different decision than the one I made.

[cui bono]

130. It's just to correct them. If a Republican brags about something that is incorrect wouldn't you want

to let them know they were mistaken?

The OP is a fanboy post making a claim that isn't really true. Why let a falsehood stand?

[onenote]

131. The posts here go far beyond debating profit margins

[cui bono]

132. True, as did the OP. n/t

[Aerows]

185. I don't care

As long as somehow, someway I get a Samsung Note 2 in my hands before too long.

[RobinA]

188. You Said It

I have an iPhone because it was the first smartphone I ever came in contact with and I liked it, so I bought myself one. My best friend has some kind of Android. We get along just fine and manage to never discuss our phone brands. I will say, however, that I can't see how in the world she can stand those Nikes. Asics are so much better!

[wtmusic]

83. Maybe one day they'll offer a blue screen of death, viruses, and game card slots

to make all the WinFanBoys happy.

[denem]

89. BSOD

Putting the crash into crash.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

84. I love my iPhone

and most of the time it is easy and reliable to use for my needs. I sometimes wish that it was more customizable and that I could get "under the hood" and optimize it more but, in general, I've been happy with it, as has my wife and stepdaughter. Their repair costs for mishaps, though, are pretty outrageous IMHO. We're all exceedingly cautious with our iPhones/iPods but stuff happens..........

[bettyellen]

92. a lot of their authorized repair places are cheaper- Tekserve in NYC, for example.

worth a check around. People assume they have to bring it to Apple, not so.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

94. Apple has been the only place here in Indy that I've known to be able to do repair work

and the closest store has been all the way on the other end of the city from me, although I think that I saw a sign for a new iPhone/iPod store down by where I live, so hopefully, if anything ever happens, I'll be able to go there instead. Apple products are, to me, like cars in that even seemingly *minor* damage can cost a huge wad of cash to repair.

[bettyellen]

98. Ahh, well. If you ever have an expensive repair and have a few extra days-

consider maybe giving Tekserve a call for an estimate. The few things I have had to do were 35-40% cheaper than Apple, and their service is just great. So might be worth the shipping if they give you a great quote. Some of the smartest and nicest people work there too.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

102. Thanks a lot for the advice

I'll keep that in mind if anything happens.

[bettyellen]

110. No prob! It amazes me how many NYers prefer to go to the Apple store and pay more...

their store is a very different hippie/ hacker/ non corporate vibe with dusty floors. But they have been around and working exclusively on Apple for almost 30 years. They have great open box or discontinued model specials and are really helpful- they helped me install an added memory card via email and over the phone once. I always check with them to see what they have vs going to the Apple store. They have quite a few sub departments, so when you get to the right dept, you are dealing with total experts. Which I totally appreciate, since I am not a techie.

[Demonaut]

96. suckers are born every day.......apple can because....they can

[denem]

97. Spoken like a true Republican.

False equivalence equals God.

[DainBramaged]

108. Sure, you slander the member because he doesn't agree with your bs premise of corporate cronyism

who's next for you to defend the NRA?

[Demonaut]

112. thanks DainBramaged, I saw the note from SmileyRose about you

her post was touching

[DainBramaged]

114. She is a good good person, and as is always the case, she takes the punishment the evildoers don't

I can think of a number of political scumbags who deserve her fate but wouldn't have the guts to step up to the plate.


Be well

DB

[Demonaut]

115. I'll excuse your short time here...I supported apple in the 90's when they were the underdogs

but still making products in the US...now they have a philological monopoly on the latest and greatest which I disagree with

are they good? yes
are they right? no imho

and you're a tool to think my comment in anyway resembles republican-smallthink

[denem]

123. Apple employs 52,000 people in the USA

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Few, very few, are disposable.

[supernova]

103. This laptop is from 2007

It still functions perfectly well. It works out so far to about $300/year. Not bad. And I expect to be able to keep it for another couple of years. I've had the batteries and power cords replaced for free.

Considering if I had bought a cheaper Dell or Acer, It's likely I would have had two of three of them in these intervening years. So all in all, though I did pay more up front, the MacBook has lasted better than other brands on the market.

I may, MAY, replace it when the time comes with one of these:

http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/convertibles/

I used to work for IBM and Thinkpads are great workhorses. They do take a beating and keep on ticking..

[denem]

104. I loved IBM's ThinkPads.

Quality. In the early hours you could rely on them. Great days (gone for me at least).

Cheers!

[dawg]

105. I'm quite fond of my Apple products.

I don't consider myself a member of a "cult", and I don't run out to foolishly upgrade to the latest and greatest versions as soon as they are released.

I have an iPad 1 and an iPod Touch 3.

They both still work very well. It was foolish of me to buy extended Apple warranties. The products are made to last.

I have extensive experience with Wintel computers. 50% of the last 6 Wintel computers I have purchased were defective right out of the box. I have purchased from HP, Dell, Acer & Asus. The Asus laptop worked. All the other computers had problems. Acer and Dell were hit or miss, and HP can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.

[denem]

107. '50% of the last 6 Wintel computers I have purchased were defective right out of the box'?

Truly, I think you were unlucky. I have never heard of such a thing in 25 years of IT.

Far be it for me to defend Wintel but this is off the scale. I hope they replaced them OK.

[dawg]

119. I got very poor customer service, especially from HP.

They eventually demanded I ship the computer back to them, whereupon they wiped all my data, replaced the motherboard, installed an unlicensed copy of Windows, and shipped it back to me. And that was only after many, many calls from me demanding that they repair their defective product.

With Dell, I got defects out of the box 50% of the time. One was a failing hard drive. The other was an improperly installed video card. With the hard drive, I spent over 6 hours on the phone with tech support before eventually diagnosing the problem myself and demanding they just send me a new hard drive that I would install myself. It took being rude with them, but it solved my problem. The video card was an easy matter for me to fix myself as well, but products should not make it off the factory floor in unusable condition. That just should not happen.

The Acer had video card compatibility problems right out of the box. It had to be replaced.

But it isn't just computers. Nearly every product I buy is inferior to the products that were available fifteen years ago. Corporations try to make things on the cheap, and the results are predictable.

For the most part, Apple has not gone down this path, and that is why I plan to buy more from Apple in the future.

[denem]

121. 'Nearly every product I buy is inferior to the products that were available fifteen years ago.'

Oh man, ain't that the truth. I keep pursuing the corporate MoFo's until they send me something. Anything. But I'm surprised when the warranty replacements are not better than the defectives.

Best wishes,
may your Windows shine like Windex.

[tabbycat31]

147. HP SUCKS!!!

I had an HP that lasted for about 15 months. Neither HP or Office Depot (where I bought it with an extended warantee) would acknowledge the thing was defective.

I borrowed an Apple from the time my HP died until I got the current computer I'm using (Sony Vaio). (I had the Apple for 6 months and could not wait to go back to PC). There was nothing wrong with it, I just did not like the format or system. Apple seems to be very big on viewing things as a grid, and personally I get headaches trying to read it that way.

My Sony is still going strong, and it will be replaced with another (I tend to be very brand loyal).

[DainBramaged]

106. Why do DU members act as Corporate mouthpieces?

And defend excessive profits of the corporate whores. Where I work, our gross is less than 10% and our net is closer to 2%.


Fanbois, propping up the rights of the corporations since 2010

[denem]

109. I am reporting the numbers as lodged

which seem to contradict conventional wisdom.

When DU does not want to trump convictions with facts, I will stop posting.

[DainBramaged]

111. You just keep thinking you're doing us a favor so precious you are

[denem]

113. Oh my!

[reformist2]

116. Apple is just a fad. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing great about it either.

[woo me with science]

117. I found a Mac Mini in the trash.

It's an older version, without internal wifi and with the old Panther (I think) OS, 10.3.9.

I plugged it in, and it fired right up, very nicely. I got it on a wireless network with a USB adapter.

However, the old OS makes many websites inaccessible. A little research online told me that the computer's not compatible with the newest Mac OS, the 10.6 Snow Leopard, but needs the previous Leopard version, 10.5.

Looking on the internet, I can buy the obsolete version I have now for about 25 bucks. I can get the newest, noncompatible version for about 35 bucks.

The one I need? 175 dollars, or 75 dollars used.

I guess a lot of people want it.

[denem]

118. I bought an intel Mac Mini in 2006.

Anything earlier is a waste of time. After seven years, coders have optimised their apps for intel.

[Uzair]

128. Keep on drinking that Kool Aid

What is it with you Apple fan boys?

The Samsung Galaxy and the new Blackberry phones are not only comparable to the iPhone, but better in almost every measurable metric. Yet they're cheaper.

It's marketing. You've been brainwashed by it. Congratulations.

[denem]

144. Keep drinking the vinegar.

Given it's cost base, Apple does not price gouge.

The iPhone 5 outperforms the SIII on all metrics. Graphics are twice as fast, or more. What is it? Reading statements that are simply not true. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6330/the-iphone-5-review.

[name not needed]

152. What is it with you and giving a shit what kind of phone I use?

[Hosnon]

134. The iPhone was an amazing product for its time. But it's stale.

Having one used to be a status symbol but now it's like owning a Blackberry. I assume you just don't know what's out there and settled for something that "just works".

Hopefully Google will release a Google Now app for iOS, because that is probably the biggest advantage Android has right now.

[woodsprite]

135. When reading this, my first thought was "Better to be gouged by Apple, then shat upon by Microsoft."

Forced to use a PC at work, but Apple's outnumber PC's at home.

[2ndAmForComputers]

168. There is a "neither" option, you know that, don't you?

[woodsprite]

182. Yeah, we have a Linux box at home - or rather my husband does.

He uses it to program his halloween props and his electronics. I try to stay away from that one just because it's in his domain. I use my windows and mac machines to connect to a Unix box at work. Everybody gets on my case because I actually prefer using the command prompt and typing my commands rather than use a windows gui interface for running my files through the versioning software (CVS) and editing in something like Dreamweaver. I also still prefer to use Pine mail and VI is my editor of choice!

[Aerows]

138. A few things

Apple's market share is down.

Apple gouges customers, but not in the way you are stating. Apple gouges customers by being a closed source OS, and is draconian about what you can and cannot do with your own hardware.

That's why I wouldn't buy an Apple phone if had to. Android is snapping up market share left and right because it is a hell of a lot more flexible.

[denem]

142. I agree with with you on the closed source OS.

Never disagreed. Android is much more flexible. I was posting about unit pricing on the basis of their announced results.

[Aerows]

166. Hardware

is useless without applications. They go hand in hand, and that is why Apple is declining. Apple firmly decided against allowing application development unless it was in their grasp so tight, the developer can't sneeze without an Apple patent attorney handing them a tissue and a form to sign.

[Egalitarian Thug]

139. So... because some other corporate criminals are gouging more, that makes their gouging OK?

The companies that became the owners of the world got there on single and low double digit profits. Las Vegas was built on slots that make less than 1% profit.

[denem]

141. Yes. Apple should adopt a 1% margin.

This is Walmart thinking. Lower margins, always. 37.5% is quite reasonable for a tech company.

[WinkyDink]

148. What the market will bear. AKA: There is no "gouging," because alternatives abound.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

154. I just go with what works,

which happens to be Apple.
I owned PCs for years, but you know the drill: always having to optimize this that or the other, programs never work properly together, all that stuff.
I also owned in sequence, a Windows phone, then an Android, and then an iPhone.
That iPhone is what got me to buy a Mac.
What happened was as follows: I got the Windows phone because at the time it was the only phone that would run this one app I was interested in. Shortly after I bought it the app was ported to ios, but I was happy with my Windows phone, so didn't care. Towards the end of the contract I had on that phone it began to hang every once in a while, and so I decided my next one would be an Android as by then even they had the app I wanted, and everyone at work was saying to get Android. So I did.
It hanged all the time. After about half a year I finally gave up and replaced it with an iPhone, which I still have, and which has worked flawlessly from day one. Never even threatened to hang. Also a lot easier on the battery. In fact, now that I think of it, the last straw with the Android was that it drained down to 5%, hung, and wouldn't come out of it for anything.
After experiencing the iPhone for a while, I figured I just had to get a Mac for my next computer. Which I did, and haven't looked back. This past year, with both of these devices, has been the first time I can honestly say I've gone that entire time without once having to think about how either one works. They just do. And that's what I need, and want.

[Jamastiene]

155. Criminal Minds is a repeat tonight anyhow.

[BootinUp]

157. I really don't care which billionaire people want to suck up to. lol.

[rightsideout]

158. Apple products have always been on the high price side.

I've owned Macs since the Mac 512K years ago. Macs have always been pricey. I paid for $1200 for my daughter's iMac and that was 6 years ago but it's still working great. I've upgraded it once with more ram. We just bought her a MacBook Pro for college. I wouldn't go with anything else. I have an HP Desktop that I use for work at home if a customer's files need to be done on a PC.

But I prefer Macs. The design is more elegant and user friendly. Plug and play. It's great for doing graphics, which is what I do. The PC has always felt bulky and clumsy when drawing.

I paid over $3500 for my current Mac Pro tower Mac with quad processors but it's worth the money. When I get a Mac I keep it for a long time and I've never had one break. The G4 that I replaced with the Mac Pro still runs great.

Plus they are backwards compatible. When our house was built we had it wired with Ethernet cables. The Macs could hook up fine but I had to rewire the outlets for the PC because they couldn't sense the twisted pair connections and switch them around like the Macs could. That took awhile to figure out what was going on. The Macs worked on all the outlets but the PC wouldn't.

[xfundy]

159. Because Macs are superior machines.

They work better.

Think about that next time you get the Blue Screen of Death.

[jazzimov]

160. I have never gotten the Blue Screen of Death,

and I would put Linux with WINE against any Apple product, anytime.

I refuse to buy any product which requires me to also buy their hardware with no choices. That's simply barbaric.

[jeff47]

183. Good thing apple gives you choices then.

What, you think the machine won't boot if the memory doesn't have an apple logo?

[jazzimov]

161. They are - because they can.

As well as employing slave labor in China.

[Skip Intro]

177. Because they can.

Maybe they're not evil in that respect. I guess they see themselves as premium and the best you can get.

I'm sure Blackberry (RIM) felt the same way at one time.

Ah, the race to build the best device that turns too many into drooling screenwatchers, about to walk into traffic at any moment.

[Skittles]

180. I have never bought an Apple product