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I am OK with Tsarnaev getting life without parole in Supermax. (Original Post) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 OP
What's the point? MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #1
Sorry, what "torture"? (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #2
You don't think supermax prisons are torture? MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #3
Of course it's not "torture". Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #4
Do other civilized countries have anything like this? MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #6
Oh Manny. tblue Apr 2013 #9
I see ensuite private bathroom facilities. Plus your very own TV. Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #10
So if you went to jail, you would be content with such a place? MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #14
This is where empathy becomes silliness Prism Apr 2013 #29
Right; "Would you be content"? No, but I wouldn't blow up the 8 year old, either. Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #31
Bingo Dorian Gray Apr 2013 #41
Empathy is not silly. woo me with science Apr 2013 #58
Good post. Thanks. (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #67
Empathy is the only hope this planet has soleft Apr 2013 #77
+1 RedCappedBandit Apr 2013 #107
+100000000000000000000000 dionysus Apr 2013 #106
Then what should prison be like? treestar Apr 2013 #39
define the torture DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #42
Solitary confinement and 23 hours a day in a 6'x9' cell. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #64
yes, it is harsh DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #72
"People in these places go insane. They eat their own eyeballs and fingers...." cliffordu Apr 2013 #95
For example MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #105
Definitely torture IMO. n/t Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #19
It's hell because why? dookers Apr 2013 #28
Thank you, Manny. woo me with science Apr 2013 #38
No, it's torture. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #12
I wish we could recommend individual posts BainsBane Apr 2013 #21
McCain didn't have a TV. There are TVs in the cells in the SuperMax cells. n/t Tx4obama Apr 2013 #23
McCain's cell had fresh air and more sunlight. MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #25
harsh enough, but DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #43
Thank you. nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #69
Is it a violation of TOS to link to the SCORES of posts on DU Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #96
What makes a Supermax prison torture? Dorian Gray Apr 2013 #40
You get out for 1 hour a day. Maybe 2. Taverner Apr 2013 #80
Black & white TVs are in SuperMax cells. Recreational, religious, educational programs are aired n/t Tx4obama Apr 2013 #81
Eaaaaugh! That's worse than nothing!!!! Taverner Apr 2013 #82
How are black & white TVs not considered torture? octothorpe Apr 2013 #92
How often do they get to swap out books? octothorpe Apr 2013 #94
They do - about once every two weeks Taverner Apr 2013 #104
Apparently so Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #71
All prisons are torture, even (sometimes especially) county jails. Zorra Apr 2013 #87
Emotional Torture, my friend Taverner Apr 2013 #79
Ant this is how it begins Brooklyns_Finest Apr 2013 #15
What's Norway's crime rate, compared to the US? MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #20
and in Norway DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #44
More info and a list of more folks that are at the Florence SuperMax on link below Tx4obama Apr 2013 #5
Looks comfortable except the concrete bed. Jack Sprat Apr 2013 #22
Actually, you can't see anything but sky dookers Apr 2013 #30
Yup, it's torture. aquart Apr 2013 #68
good; then it's settled. Schema Thing Apr 2013 #7
Always happy to help! Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #11
Regardless of what you or I or anyone thinks that will be the ultimate end.... Rowdyboy Apr 2013 #8
If I ever wish this on anybody, tblue Apr 2013 #13
+1 Lucinda Apr 2013 #17
+2 idwiyo Apr 2013 #24
What about people who favor the death penalty? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #26
Yes. morningfog Apr 2013 #61
+3 nt Live and Learn Apr 2013 #27
So what should we do with him? nt Union Scribe Apr 2013 #36
That is my question as well. n/t ChazII Apr 2013 #65
What do other civilized countries do woo me with science Apr 2013 #76
Thank you. tblue Apr 2013 #78
Then it should have been easy to tell me Union Scribe Apr 2013 #84
I'm not sure what you are finding difficult about this. woo me with science Apr 2013 #99
So, what do we do with him? nt Union Scribe Apr 2013 #83
+4 woo me with science Apr 2013 #37
+5 redStateBlueHeart Apr 2013 #88
I really think the "rot in jail" sentiment is lamentable. I'd hope some SOME of the inmates KittyWampus Apr 2013 #16
Let's have the trial first BainsBane Apr 2013 #18
I hope that some day he will be able to find rehabilitation and redemption and will be able to Douglas Carpenter Apr 2013 #32
If he ever got out customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #100
there was not one radical Islamic group in the world that wanted to be associated with this, - not Douglas Carpenter Apr 2013 #102
At this point, hell no customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #103
cruel and unusual punishment. clearly illustrated by the psych study cali Apr 2013 #33
But other than facts, you got nothing. MannyGoldstein Apr 2013 #34
Compared to those who support the death penalty, am I better, just as bad, or worse? (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #45
really? you think in those terms? why? cali Apr 2013 #50
Because realistically, he will either be sentenced to death, or to life in Supermax. Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #53
you have to ask? I've made it clear here on numerous occasions cali Apr 2013 #57
Thank you, Cali. nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #52
Corporatism, authoritarianism, torture, choosing the coldest and most inhumane woo me with science Apr 2013 #35
Compared to those who support the death penalty, am I better, just as bad, or worse? (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #46
False choice, but typical for this ugly, ugly mindset. woo me with science Apr 2013 #48
Well, you may consider it a "false choice", but realistically he will either get the death penalty, Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #51
Not playing your game. woo me with science Apr 2013 #54
me 2 MFM008 Apr 2013 #47
Death would be too easy for this guy madokie Apr 2013 #49
Not just heaven. Heaven with 72 virgins (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #55
The whole concept of a Supermax prison is pure evil vindictiveness lunatica Apr 2013 #56
But not as evil as strapping someone to a gurney and injecting them with poison, right? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #60
I'm against the death penalty lunatica Apr 2013 #63
Third Way framing. Always we are urged to embrace the lesser of evils. woo me with science Apr 2013 #70
Like it or not, this is probably where he will end up. Terra Alta Apr 2013 #59
If you can't do the appalling time, then don't do the horrible crime (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #62
What he did was appalling, no doubt about that. Terra Alta Apr 2013 #66
I'm Not RobinA Apr 2013 #73
It is a bid to abandon our human ethics and compassion, woo me with science Apr 2013 #75
+1 nt Javaman Apr 2013 #74
Excellent! zappaman Apr 2013 #85
funny thing warrprayer Apr 2013 #86
What I wanna know is...how do people not go crazy in an establishment like this? redStateBlueHeart Apr 2013 #89
Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) successfully completed three independent study courses Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #90
Hmm, at least he was able to do something productive redStateBlueHeart Apr 2013 #91
"I'm glad they have access to TV" Floyd_Gondolli Apr 2013 #93
Only one thing's for sure, after a few years in there that 19 yr old will wish he had chosen death riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #97
Have ANY of you looked at the sentencing guidelines? DevonRex Apr 2013 #98
Hmm, serious article customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #101
I have no problem with him being put in a supermax davidpdx Apr 2013 #108
 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
3. You don't think supermax prisons are torture?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:37 AM
Apr 2013

Do other civilized countries have anything like these? If not, how do they manage to prevent prison mayhem?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
4. Of course it's not "torture".
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:40 AM
Apr 2013

They are fed, showered and exercised and receive necessary medical care. Obviously top level security is needed for people like extremist Islamic terrorists.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
6. Do other civilized countries have anything like this?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:45 AM
Apr 2013

Western Europe?

Look at the cell below. It is a gratuitous Hell.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
10. I see ensuite private bathroom facilities. Plus your very own TV.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:49 AM
Apr 2013

And unlike his victims, he gets to keep all of his limbs.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
14. So if you went to jail, you would be content with such a place?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:55 AM
Apr 2013

People in these places go insane. They eat their own eyeballs and fingers.

Think for a moment about the lack of these torture barracks in most other civilized countries. They do fine without them. We can, too.

Imprisonment is sometimes necessary. Torture is not.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
29. This is where empathy becomes silliness
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:11 AM
Apr 2013

Of course no one would be "content" with such a place. Are criminals who have harmed and ended lives supposed to be contented? When contemplating the firmest form of punishment short of death, does a prisoner's "contentment" enter the equation?

Of course not.

It's supposed to be miserable. Otherwise, it wouldn't be punishment. It's not like you try to blow a few people up and automatically receive a Motel 6. What would stop thousands of poor people from blowing folks up just for the accommodations?

I'm an empathetic person. Very much so. But there is a line where chest-beating, "more liberal and empathetic than thou" chest-beating becomes egotistical bleating, and that line is just about here.

Stoopid.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
41. Bingo
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:04 AM
Apr 2013

Content? Why should we give a shit if he's "Content???" He killed four people, maimed a hell of a lot more. He placed a bomb right next to an 8 year old child whom he killed. I don't think any of us are worried about his contentment.

He's being punished for his crimes, and a supermax prison seems like a fair place to punish the guy.

(ETA: Warren, your post inspired by response bc I agree with you. My argument is with Manny)

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
58. Empathy is not silly.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:48 AM
Apr 2013

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:12 PM - Edit history (1)

It is desperately lacking in the sick culture we live in now.

And it is worth noting what groups, with what political agendas, in this culture constantly preach to us to abandon our empathy, and to mock it...

soleft

(18,537 posts)
77. Empathy is the only hope this planet has
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 09:22 AM
Apr 2013

The fear of punishment does not and has not ever prevented people from harming others. Only empathy gives us pause and makes us consider if our actions will cause harm.

Empathy is never silly, never wasted, never misdirected.

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
42. define the torture
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:07 AM
Apr 2013

and I say this as one that has seen torture occur in prisons, but mostly at the hands of guards and inmate that were not supervised as much as in a supermax. The supermax protects people from themselves.

And other countries prisons are full of torture, even western europe has been known to be harsh enough where prisoners have to kill and eat rats.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/28/world/expose-of-brutal-prison-jolts-france-s-self-image.html
http://www.economist.com/node/8680941?story_id=E1_RGRDJQT

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
64. Solitary confinement and 23 hours a day in a 6'x9' cell.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:56 AM
Apr 2013

Solitary confinement is psychological torture. The US not only has the largest percentage of its population in prison of any country, it also has the largest percentage of prisoners in solitary confinement.

The main argument for using long-term isolation in prisons is that it provides discipline and prevents violence. When inmates refuse to follow the rules—when they escape, deal drugs, or attack other inmates and corrections officers—wardens must be able to punish and contain the misconduct. Presumably, less stringent measures haven’t worked, or the behavior would not have occurred. And it’s legitimate to incapacitate violent aggressors for the safety of others. So, advocates say, isolation is a necessary evil, and those who don’t recognize this are dangerously naïve.

The argument makes intuitive sense. If the worst of the worst are removed from the general prison population and put in isolation, you’d expect there to be markedly fewer inmate shankings and attacks on corrections officers. But the evidence doesn’t bear this out. Perhaps the most careful inquiry into whether supermax prisons decrease violence and disorder was a 2003 analysis examining the experience in three states—Arizona, Illinois, and Minnesota—following the opening of their supermax prisons. The study found that levels of inmate-on-inmate violence were unchanged, and that levels of inmate-on-staff violence changed unpredictably, rising in Arizona, falling in Illinois, and holding steady in Minnesota.

Prison violence, it turns out, is not simply an issue of a few belligerents. In the past thirty years, the United States has quadrupled its incarceration rate but not its prison space. Work and education programs have been cancelled, out of a belief that the pursuit of rehabilitation is pointless. The result has been unprecedented overcrowding, along with unprecedented idleness—a nice formula for violence. Remove a few prisoners to solitary confinement, and the violence doesn’t change. So you remove some more, and still nothing happens. Before long, you find yourself in the position we are in today. The United States now has five per cent of the world’s population, twenty-five per cent of its prisoners, and probably the vast majority of prisoners who are in long-term solitary confinement.

It wasn’t always like this. The wide-scale use of isolation is, almost exclusively, a phenomenon of the past twenty years. In 1890, the United States Supreme Court came close to declaring the punishment to be unconstitutional. Writing for the majority in the case of a Colorado murderer who had been held in isolation for a month, Justice Samuel Miller noted that experience had revealed “serious objections” to solitary confinement:

A considerable number of the prisoners fell, after even a short confinement, into a semi-fatuous condition, from which it was next to impossible to arouse them, and others became violently insane; others, still, committed suicide; while those who stood the ordeal better were not generally reformed, and in most cases did not recover suffcient mental activity to be of any subsequent service to the community.


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande


DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
72. yes, it is harsh
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:34 AM
Apr 2013

is getting raped by a person who has aids not harsh? I do not say this as shock value, but because I used to work with people that exact same thing happened to.

cliffordu

(30,994 posts)
95. "People in these places go insane. They eat their own eyeballs and fingers...."
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:40 PM
Apr 2013

Can you give me a citation please?

It's been my understanding that these joints are for remorseless psychopaths.

Ya really gotta be a fuckup to get kicked out of San Quentin for bad behavior.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
105. For example
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 11:12 PM
Apr 2013
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/01/09/us-usa-deathrow-eyeball-idUSTRE50867T20090109

Can't find the finger one - it was in the last few months, a Cool-Hand Luke kind of deal where a middle-class guy went to prison for a relatively minor thing, a few infractions later he's eating his fingers while serving decades in solitary.

More from my own state: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/08/magazine/is-solitary-confinement-driving-charlie-chase-crazy.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

dookers

(61 posts)
28. It's hell because why?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:59 AM
Apr 2013

Because his bed is too hard? Should we give him 1000 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets and silk pajamas?

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
12. No, it's torture.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:52 AM
Apr 2013
“It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his five and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam—more than two years of it spent in isolation in a fifteen-by-fifteen-foot cell, unable to communicate with other P.O.W.s except by tap code, secreted notes, or by speaking into an enamel cup pressed against the wall. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.” And this comes from a man who was beaten regularly; denied adequate medical treatment for two broken arms, a broken leg, and chronic dysentery; and tortured to the point of having an arm broken again. A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

And what happened to them was physical. EEG studies going back to the nineteen-sixties have shown diffuse slowing of brain waves in prisoners after a week or more of solitary confinement. In 1992, fifty-seven prisoners of war, released after an average of six months in detention camps in the former Yugoslavia, were examined using EEG-like tests. The recordings revealed brain abnormalities months afterward; the most severe were found in prisoners who had endured either head trauma sufficient to render them unconscious or, yes, solitary confinement. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande


Segregation, isolation, separation, cellular, lockdown, Supermax, the hole, Secure Housing Unit… whatever the name, solitary confinement should be banned by States as a punishment or extortion technique

“Solitary confinement is a harsh measure which is contrary to rehabilitation, the aim of the penitentiary system,” he stressed in presenting his first interim report on the practice, calling it global in nature and subject to widespread abuse.

Indefinite and prolonged solitary confinement in excess of 15 days should also be subject to an absolute prohibition, he added, citing scientific studies that have established that some lasting mental damage is caused after a few days of social isolation.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=40097#.UXYhQsomxeE





DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
43. harsh enough, but
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:09 AM
Apr 2013

as far as solitary goes, i would rather be by myself than worry about a prisoner shanking me or worse. Yes, people joke about prison rape, but it is for real, so much so that AIDS and other diseases flare up in jails.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
96. Is it a violation of TOS to link to the SCORES of posts on DU
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:42 PM
Apr 2013

where many longtime posters have advocating sticking people like Joe Arpaio in Supermax?

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
80. You get out for 1 hour a day. Maybe 2.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 12:59 PM
Apr 2013

The other 22-23 hours are spent in your cell, sitting.

Supermax means no roomies.

You get 2 books.

No TV

No Cable

Now do this for the rest of your life

-------------------------------


On a side note, I've always felt they should have the charges displayed in big letters in their cell.

Remind them why they are there.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
81. Black & white TVs are in SuperMax cells. Recreational, religious, educational programs are aired n/t
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

octothorpe

(962 posts)
94. How often do they get to swap out books?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:37 PM
Apr 2013

I was wondering if they at least got reading material. That truly does sound worse than death after awhile.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
104. They do - about once every two weeks
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 09:43 PM
Apr 2013

I think it does what it is supposed to do

Punitive measures

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
71. Apparently so
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:21 AM
Apr 2013

I know Canada has units like this. They are used only for very dangerous inmates who pose a severe threat to other inmates and guards.

I do think they are torture, but assuming that Tsarnaev is found guilty, it seems unlikely that he can ever be placed in general population for his own safety, if nothing else.

Canada I think has four currently operating, some as special units within other prisons.
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/lt-en/2006/31-2/3-eng.shtml

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
87. All prisons are torture, even (sometimes especially) county jails.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 05:35 PM
Apr 2013

Being locked up is a bit like being in hell.

Some facilities have more privileges than others, usually dependent on the offender level.

Prison mayhem is prevented through strict application of corrections procedures. Prisons have it down to a science. Correctional Science. Max lockdowns are designed to keep the most dangerous inmates from killing other inmates and guards, and from escaping. Long term inmates are often thoroughly institutionalized, and can't handle not being locked up for very long. So committing crimes while in prison is not always a big deal to some of them, even if it means losing all their privileges.

Normally, states have different prisons for different levels of offenders. They don't want to mix people busted for selling an oz. of weed with people like Hammibal Lechner. There are minimum, medium, and maximum security prisons (and sometimes in between) for different levels of offenders. Minimum security prisoners generally have the most privileges, while maximum security prisoners often have 23 hrs a day lockdown.

There are some pure evil people in prisons. This is no joke. Vicious sociopaths People who would cut your throat for a cigarette and never think about it again. People who would strangle a guard for cheap thrills without consideration of consequences.

Some states have more humane systems than others. Some countries, like Sweden, have very humane systems, and many prisoner's rights advocates believe the US should change over to the Swedish model.

Anyway, one of my SO's started out as a teacher in a prison and ended up as a high level central administrator in the state prison educational system, so I ended up being her live in amateur sort of counselor sounding board, and learning so much more than I ever wanted to know about prisons while we were together.

Brooklyns_Finest

(789 posts)
15. Ant this is how it begins
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:56 AM
Apr 2013

We go from not considering execution because it is in humane. Then we consider the super max, but then change our mind, because being locked up for 23 hours a day is considered torture. Then we say life in prison is cruel and unusual. Eventually we become like Norway, where a man can kill 80 kids and get a 20 year sentence.

When does it stop?

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
44. and in Norway
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:13 AM
Apr 2013

he might be out in 10 years, 21 maximum.

http://www.thelocal.no/page/view/why-norways-maximum-sentence-is-just-21-years#.UXZsp7WceSo

He is young enough to where in his 40's, he can make a fine living speaking in Dubai about killing people, while Saudi princes feed him Caviar.

 

Jack Sprat

(2,500 posts)
22. Looks comfortable except the concrete bed.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:59 AM
Apr 2013

That view of the inner courtyard would make anyone jealous.

dookers

(61 posts)
30. Actually, you can't see anything but sky
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 03:16 AM
Apr 2013

The windows are angled so that prisoners can only see the sky. Its to prevent the from knowing their location within the building.

Rowdyboy

(22,057 posts)
8. Regardless of what you or I or anyone thinks that will be the ultimate end....
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:46 AM
Apr 2013

He will live and eventually die in a small cell, probably over a very long period of time. He will have little human contact and will likely be incredibly frustrated and angry. He's young so that's very hard to take.

But so were his victims. Four of them are dead, others lost limbs and worse.

I don't think there is serious cause for worry. He will never breath freely again. His life is over because of his choices. So are the lives of his victims.



Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
26. What about people who favor the death penalty?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 02:21 AM
Apr 2013

Like Barack Obama, for example?

Are their souls even deader?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
76. What do other civilized countries do
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 09:19 AM
Apr 2013

with those who have committed heinous crimes?

SuperMax and the Death Penalty are not the only options, as much as some would like to frame the discussion that way.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
99. I'm not sure what you are finding difficult about this.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:50 PM
Apr 2013

Our use of SuperMax (and even the extremity of the conditions in SuperMax) is relatively recent (see SpiderJerusalem's posts elsewhere in this thread), and other civilized countries do not use them at all. Given that there is ample historical precedent for imprisoning even hardened and dangerous criminals for life without resorting to SuperMax, your challenge here is rather strange.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
16. I really think the "rot in jail" sentiment is lamentable. I'd hope some SOME of the inmates
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:57 AM
Apr 2013

might find the capacity for remorse and empathy and do something to contribute in some small way to society.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
32. I hope that some day he will be able to find rehabilitation and redemption and will be able to
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:16 AM
Apr 2013

rejoin society. I hope that for everyone - but in his case he is after all but a young boy.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
100. If he ever got out
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:14 PM
Apr 2013

He'd be lionized as some sort of hero by radical Islamist facists who would destroy all human rights. Let his ass rot, it's more life than a certain eight year old boy is ever going to have.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
102. there was not one radical Islamic group in the world that wanted to be associated with this, - not
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:21 PM
Apr 2013

one - he is certainly not going to be lionized. A long-haired, dope smoking 19-year-old Chechen who was far more interested in chasing girls, watching basketball and listening to wrap music - not years ago - but days ago is no model Islamist extremist.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
103. At this point, hell no
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:32 PM
Apr 2013

Right now, President Obama would look like a national war hero for sending a drone strike on any organization that gave the slightest whiff of approval for this. But passions die down after a few decades, and he would be quite embraceable by terrorist organizations that would use his quarter-century of time in Supermax as a reason to declare him a hero.

Remember how the Libyans welcomed back the Lockerbie bomber? There's the precedent.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
33. cruel and unusual punishment. clearly illustrated by the psych study
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:27 AM
Apr 2013

I just can't get behind it as a concept.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
50. really? you think in those terms? why?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:33 AM
Apr 2013

I said what I believe about supermax prisons. I insinuated nothing about you.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
53. Because realistically, he will either be sentenced to death, or to life in Supermax.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:34 AM
Apr 2013

Which of these two choices would you favor?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
57. you have to ask? I've made it clear here on numerous occasions
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:38 AM
Apr 2013

that i'm implacably opposed to the dp across the board. but that doesn't mean that I support cruel and unusual punishment either. So by default, life in prison.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
35. Corporatism, authoritarianism, torture, choosing the coldest and most inhumane
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:59 AM
Apr 2013

They all go together, always.

This is the mentality and the world view the Third Way brings to our party.

It all goes together. It's about the kind of society we want to build. Manny has it right earlier in this thread. Do other civilized countries need this? Why do we?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
48. False choice, but typical for this ugly, ugly mindset.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:26 AM
Apr 2013

Our choices are not only the death penalty or SuperMax. You ignore what Manny was saying to you above. This is about who we want to be as a nation. Not every nation does this.

What a depressing thread.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
51. Well, you may consider it a "false choice", but realistically he will either get the death penalty,
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:33 AM
Apr 2013

or life without parole in Supermax.

So which would you pick if the choice was up to you?

madokie

(51,076 posts)
49. Death would be too easy for this guy
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:29 AM
Apr 2013

Keep him alive as long as is humanly possible, that to me would be punishment.
Too easy for these kind of cretins to find religion and die thinking, believing they are going to heaven for the death penalty to be punishment.
A former neighbor our ours who went on a killing spree a few years ago was recently put to death and he went to his death thinking, believing he was forgiven and he was soon to be in heaven. How is that punishment I ask

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
56. The whole concept of a Supermax prison is pure evil vindictiveness
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:37 AM
Apr 2013

The people thinking this up should be the first to spend a year in it. After that we'd see so just how great they think their ideas are.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
60. But not as evil as strapping someone to a gurney and injecting them with poison, right?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:52 AM
Apr 2013

So you should prefer my position on this issue to those like President Obama who favor the death penalty.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
63. I'm against the death penalty
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:54 AM
Apr 2013

But if you want to think in extremes then go ahead. Either/or is black/white thinking with disregard to the many hundreds of alternative solutions available.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
70. Third Way framing. Always we are urged to embrace the lesser of evils.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:16 AM
Apr 2013


We are constantly being urged to accept cruelty, to accept predatory policies, to accept a corporate, dehumanizing world view, and to pretend that no other options exist.

No.

Terra Alta

(5,158 posts)
59. Like it or not, this is probably where he will end up.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:50 AM
Apr 2013

I don't like the idea of Supermax prisons myself, I think it's a form of torture worse than death. I knew Supermax prisons were restrictive, but I didn't know they were this restrictive. He should obviously never be free, but is this really an appropriate punishment?

Terra Alta

(5,158 posts)
66. What he did was appalling, no doubt about that.
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:06 AM
Apr 2013

but does he deserve what is basically torture for the rest of his life? I don't think any human, no matter their crime, deserves that.

RobinA

(9,874 posts)
73. I'm Not
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 08:35 AM
Apr 2013

Supermax is disgusting and inhumane. As soon as we get rid of the death penalty we need to get rid of Supermax. If not sooner. If someone is dangerous to society, lock 'em up. That should solve the problem of them and society can get on with it without worry. Beyond that it's just piling on to make some people feel good.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
75. It is a bid to abandon our human ethics and compassion,
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 09:10 AM
Apr 2013

utterly predictable in the context of defense of an increasingly inhumane, corporate state.

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
85. Excellent!
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 04:50 PM
Apr 2013

I hope he is comfortable!
I would also suggest some nice posters for the cell of the people he killed and maimed.
Give him something to look at.

warrprayer

(4,734 posts)
86. funny thing
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 05:00 PM
Apr 2013

how supposedly progressive minded folks turn into hateful vengeful lynch mob members when their "ideals" are actually tested by reality





"Swing low, swing low, swing low and carry me home"


redStateBlueHeart

(265 posts)
89. What I wanna know is...how do people not go crazy in an establishment like this?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 05:38 PM
Apr 2013

Looking at the walls of a cell for 23 hours per day...I would definitely go crazy. How are all the inmates there not on suicide watch?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
90. Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) successfully completed three independent study courses
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 05:51 PM
Apr 2013

while in Supermax. (The courses were conducted by closed circuit TV).



OCTOBER 27--Five years into a life sentence, Ted Kaczynski is proving to be a model prisoner at the country's "supermax" federal penitentiary. He keeps a tidy cell, has a clean conduct record, and maintains a "positive rapport" with staff.

But the Unabomber's stay behind bars is not without its frustrations, including noisy neighbors, commissary miscues, and mail problems galore for a man who once relied on the U.S. Postal Service to deliver his deadly packages.

Bureau of Prisons documents obtained by The Smoking Gun offer the first glimpse at Kaczynski's life in the federal lockup in Florence, Colorado, where his fellow inmates include shoe bomber Richard Reid, Latin Kings boss Luis Felipe, and terrorists like Ramzi Yousef and Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman. Kaczynski's routine is filled with the kind of banalities that leave a guy obsessing about the small things, from a balky faucet to getting shorted eight ounces of milk.

Kaczynski is also vexed by Florence's mail system, which never seems to pick up his outgoing parcels in a timely fashion, loses mail addressed to him, and delivers items meant for other prisoners. At the conclusion of one four-page memo to Florence's warden, Kaczynski helpfully included a neatly rendered drawing showing how inmates are supposed to leave items for mailroom staff (see image above).


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/behind-bars-unabomber

redStateBlueHeart

(265 posts)
91. Hmm, at least he was able to do something productive
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:32 PM
Apr 2013

Maybe having a 170 IQ helped him somehow? I mean, helped him to find some productive way (say, studying or writing) to not go completely bonkers.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
97. Only one thing's for sure, after a few years in there that 19 yr old will wish he had chosen death
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:56 PM
Apr 2013

(shudders)

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
98. Have ANY of you looked at the sentencing guidelines?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 07:00 PM
Apr 2013

I posted them yesterday in another thread. I've mentioned them over and over again. This argument about this prisoner may be a moot point. Google Federal sentencing guidelines. It's a point system for classes of crimes.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
108. I have no problem with him being put in a supermax
Wed Apr 24, 2013, 12:13 AM
Apr 2013

The whole point is how high of a danger he is. Where he ends up may also depend on the federal vs. state charges. I am opposed to the death penalty. If he is convicted and spared his life, then he will have to be classified and put into a prison.

The thing is we don't yet know what will happen at the trial, or whether a plea bargain will occur in place of the trial. One possibility is that he pleads guilty to the federal charges and accepts life in prison without the possibility of parole for having the death penalty and the state charges taken off the table. If the evidence is solid, that may be the best deal he gets. In that case it would put him in somewhere in a federal prison.

He is a threat to society and when he is convicted should be put in a high security prison.

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