Motivated by religious fervor.

[DesertFlower]

WTF is that supposed to mean?

[elleng]

1. Exactly, same question here.

(Also, what's 'radical Islam???')

[FrodosPet]

57. Some verses which seem to justify violence against unbelievers

I am far from a scholar, and the meanings and historical context of the following verses are up for debate. But it should not be too hard to see how some people who are already inclined towards violence could justify violence from them.

------------------------------------------------------------

Surat Al-Baqarah
http://quran.com/2

2 : 190-194
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

2 : 216-218
Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.

Indeed, those who have believed and those who have emigrated and fought in the cause of Allah - those expect the mercy of Allah . And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surat 'Āli `Imrān
http://quran.com/3

3 : 56
And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."

3 : 151-152
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

And Allah had certainly fulfilled His promise to you when you were killing the enemy by His permission until [the time] when you lost courage and fell to disputing about the order [given by the Prophet] and disobeyed after He had shown you that which you love. Among you are some who desire this world, and among you are some who desire the Hereafter. Then he turned you back from them [defeated] that He might test you. And He has already forgiven you, and Allah is the possessor of bounty for the believers.

3 : 157
And if you are killed in the cause of Allah or die - then forgiveness from Allah and mercy are better than whatever they accumulate [in this world].

3 : 181-185
Allah has certainly heard the statement of those [Jews] who said, "Indeed, Allah is poor, while we are rich." We will record what they said and their killing of the prophets without right and will say, "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire.

That is for what your hands have put forth and because Allah is not ever unjust to [His] servants."

[They are] those who said, "Indeed, Allah has taken our promise not to believe any messenger until he brings us an offering which fire [from heaven] will consume." Say, "There have already come to you messengers before me with clear proofs and [even] that of which you speak. So why did you kill them, if you should be truthful?"

Then if they deny you, [O Muhammad] - so were messengers denied before you, who brought clear proofs and written ordinances and the enlightening Scripture.

Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.

Surat An-Nisā'
http://quran.com/4

4 : 89
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

4 : 91
You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

[CJCRANE]

64. If you read it closely

you will see that it generally only advocates that muslims should retaliate against people who attack them.

From what I've seen on religious discussion boards the orthodox view is not to attack innocent people, especially women and children: "if you kill an innocent person it is as if you have killed the whole of humanity".

Another thing to bear in mind is that all those gruesome punishments in hellfire are God's judgment in the afterlife - "there is no compulsion in religion", "you have your religion and they have theirs" - the idea being that you have free will but you will suffer in the afterlife if you make the wrong choice.

If you read the Constitution of Medina you'll also see that Jews, Christians and pagans had rights in the original islamic city-state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

It's also worth reading the Hadith if you want to see another side of Islam (a lot of them are about charity, helping widows and orphans etc.).

(This is just stuff I've picked up from my own research...just like I seem to know about Jesus than fundie christians).

[FrodosPet]

66. No doubt that is the view of reasonable, merciful people

But what we are talking about are NOT the views of reasonable people. They are the interpretations of the extremists.

As for being a matter of self defense - they consider a cultural "attack" on Islamic faith and principals to be the same as a physical attack of violence. And as for it strictly being a case of "Allah is gonna get you after the resurrection" - the following verses say what they say.

(Note: While Christians may be considered "People of the Book", they are still considered polytheists due to a belief in the Holy Trinity.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Surat At-Tawbah
http://quran.com/9

9 : 1-14
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.

So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people

9 : 29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I am not condemning the entire religion. All I am trying to show is that violent people can find violent inspiration in MANY places in the Qu'ran, just as they can in The Bible, or Grimm's Fairy Tales, or practically any other book of myths.

[CJCRANE]

67. I agree

but even then those guys didn't follow the instructions given above. They didn't try to establish a treaty with the unbelievers.

But in general I agree that people will interpret stuff how they want to interpret it, especially the Abrahamic religions which are quite contradictory.

[badtoworse]

2. It means that they were terrorists acting in the name of their religion...

which in this case happens to be Islam

[DesertFlower]

4. but what does it accomplish?

i haven't read the koran but i don't think there's anything that says killing and maiming innocent people is the right thing to do.

[badtoworse]

8. "what does it accomplish?"

IMO, nothing, but there sure seems to be a lot of it going on around the world.

[hack89]

18. Fundamentalism and rationality do not mix well. nt

[DesertFlower]

19. obviously not.

[Phillip McCleod]

30. LOL! then maybe you *should* read it.

have you ever read the bible? would you say it does or does not advocate killing and maiming innocent people?

i've read both, and both do *exactly that*.

that's YHWH, or Allah, or God, or whatever you wanna call that 'Him' of those 'Holy' books.

horror books is more like it.

[DesertFlower]

32. i've only read parts of the bible

and found it very violent.

[Phillip McCleod]

35. the koran is too. and it calls for killing unbelievers also.

they both do. the bhagavadgita (can i call it the 'gita'?) depicts a war between gods. the prose edda of snori snurlson, which norse pantheists revere, is nothing but violence. the irish heroic cycles, which reach back into pagan antiquity, are nothing but hunts and rapes and murder. it's all horrible garbage and people call it 'tradition' and put it on a dollar bill and in a national anthem and expect *me* to sing along?

nuh-uh.

[FarCenter]

40. The old testament is full of genocide and ethnic cleansing

20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold bar, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, “Why have you brought this trouble on us? The Lord will bring trouble on you today.”

Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. 26 Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the Lord turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor[f] ever since.

24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed[a] all who lived in Ai. 27 But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the Lord had instructed Joshua.

Etcetera, etcetera...

[DesertFlower]

42. one thing i remember is

"If man has sex with an animal he shall be killed and so shall the animal". like the animal had a choice.

[badtoworse]

58. Last time I checked, there weren't any Jewish or Christian jihads

At least not in the last 800 or so years.

[FarCenter]

61. Teutonic knights, reconquest of Spain, conquistadores in South America are less than 800 ya

The invasion and conquest of North America was at least partially motivated by winning it for Christianity. The Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire agressively drove back the Ottomans in the Balkans, Ukraine, the Caucusus, and Central Asia.

The Jews have generally not been in a position to win wars, except for the Zionist takeover of Palestine.

[CJCRANE]

62. I don't know...there are people who think the "War on Terror"

is a War on Islam.

IIRC there was a certain General pushing that idea.

[patrice]

3. WILL they be treated differently from other de facto terrorists - is what that's supposed to

pertain to.

Will they be treated with prejudice by media and "journalists" who have largely ignored other gun terror because it's bad PR for the NRA.

[badtoworse]

9. Arguably, the most asinine DU post so far this year.

The NRA's PR has nothing to do with this.

[patrice]

53. That was Rachel Maddow's question. Not the NRA's.

[badtoworse]

56. Bringing the NRA into this is still asinine

Rachel Maddow notwithstanding.

[patrice]

63. What's asinine is referring to others as asinine, because that is a divide & conquer tactic,

so whatever perspective you're selling gets devalued by crude manners and the whole discussion gets exploited by click-trail minded career builders who have their own intere$t$ and ambition$$$$$$$$$ at heart above bringing people together in discoveries of common understanding and respect for one another as we try to solve this problem for as many different kinds of people as possible, but then . . .

perhaps that was your agenda.

[badtoworse]

68. I never refer to people as asinine, but I do call them on what they post

This thread is about religious motivations driving the Boston terrorists and the NRA has nothing to do with that. For some reason, I've seen a lot of reluctance on this board to accept that and dragging the NRA into the discussion doesn't change anything.

There is a lot of venom towards the NRA on DU since the gun control legislation died in the Senate. The are a single issue organization that is about protecting 2nd Amendment rights and they are very effective at doing so. They're not terrorists; they're not foreclosing on peoples' homes and they're not exporting jobs. If you want to attack them, do it on a gun thread.

[MindPilot]

5. I thought it an odd choice of words too.

A religious nut did this -- we're just not going to piss a bunch of people off by saying what religion -- but well. um dogwhistle.

Maybe? It was my reaction; I'm just tossing it out here.

[badtoworse]

11. What is the point of being PC about this? We all know the religion is Islam.

[DesertFlower]

6. anyone remember ayeshahaqqiqa?

she used to post here. she was a convert to islam and was a really nice gentle person who wouldn't hurt anyone.

[Art_from_Ark]

36. I remember her

I get the impression that she might have changed her username.

[DesertFlower]

37. i've been in touch with her several times

over the years. i think she said she didn't have time to post anymore. her husband passed away a few years ago. mine passed away almost a year ago and i e-mailed her to tell her. she responded with condolences and said "you're in my daily prayers".

[patrice]

7. Rachel used a rhetorical question "What does it matter what their motive was" & she listed other

instances of de facto gun-terrorism which we have experienced.

[DesertFlower]

12. IMO it does matter. what

did they think they were going to accomplish? had they not been caught would we ever know what the motive was? we still don't. religious fervor says nothing about what they wanted. it's not like they bombed a strip club.

[hack89]

20. Have you missed the ongong slaughter of Muslims by fundamentalist Muslims?

since 2001, the most common target of Muslim terror attacks has been other Muslims. Remember the slaughter in Iraq in 2006 and 2007? It was senseless.

Stop looking for a rational reason. Fundamentalism of any stripe is irrational.

[DesertFlower]

21. so many things in this world are senseless.

i have a really hard time dealing with it.

[hack89]

22. Tell me about it.

peace.

[DesertFlower]

26. ----

[Phillip McCleod]

33. aye but the problem is where is the line?

.. and how do we know when someone is about to cross it?

even if they do cross over into fundamentalism, how do we know when they've crossed over into *violent extremism*? in a word, when they become 'radicalized'?

religion is a slippery slope into madness for some. it's like pot. it's great for some folks, but for others? anxiety!!

edit.. really bad analogy. how about LSD then?

[riderinthestorm]

38. You would understand a WHOLE lot more by learning about the Shia/Sunni Muslim split

It explains a LOT of what's going on with the Muslim v Muslim violence. You must understand the historic, bloody, sectarian divides within Islam to even begin to understand the global dynamics...

[Bluenorthwest]

28. So she discounts the victims of the primary weapons, the bombs, and claims this was

just another gun case? Seriously? The guns were secondary and part of the escape attempt from the act of terrorism, which used bombs. Rachel is saying the bombs don't count somehow? That is an argument that will not play well.

[longship]

51. Your strawman argument won't play very well.

That's not what she said. But you knew that, didn't you?

Calm down. Rachel has a political program. It is her job to leverage these issues. I don't always agree with her choices myself, but I would always watch her anyway, because she helps me to think.

Apparently, from your reaction here, she achieved that with you also. That's good. And that's why Rachel is also good.

Okay? Just maybe?

Thanks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. patrice has twice said she talked about "other gun terrorism"

so it seems reasonable for us to assume she did. Now you tell us she didn't. I don't think you can dismiss someone taking patrice at their words as a 'strawman argument'.

[Honeycombe8]

10. Jihadi? An extreme religious belief that includes the killing of innocents as promoting

a religious cause, or punishing in the name of that religion? Something like that. Thats how I'm thought of it.

[DesertFlower]

13. like i said in another post, it's not like

they bombed a strip club or something that went against their religion.

[Nye Bevan]

15. Many women in the marathon not in hijabs.

And they see the whole US as the Great Satan.

[DesertFlower]

17. it certainly doesn't help their cause. in fact

in makes people suspicious of other muslims which isn't fair.

[Honeycombe8]

44. They seem to feel it helps their cause, or they wouldn't do it.

That's what 9/11 was all about. There was cheering in the streets of Middle Eastern countries, remember?

[DesertFlower]

45. i remember, but i don't think all people

in the middle east feel that way. i have 2 facebook friends in egypt and they are the nicest most spiritual people. they don't like islam because of the way women are treated. we have lots of on-line chats. when i didn't post for a week because i was sick i got a private message from one of them asking if i was okay. they both call me "their dear friend".

[CJCRANE]

65. That's an inaccurate story BTW.

There was a video of a small group of people cheering in the Occupied Territories but IIRC they were cheering about something else.

[Honeycombe8]

43. American western life goes against their religion, I've thought.

The reason some of the muslim parents kill their westernized daughters. They're not working in strip clubs. They're wearing western clothing and working at Burger King. So, death is the only answer.

[DesertFlower]

47. my answer to that is if you don't like our culture

stay in your own country.

[Nye Bevan]

14. Is terrorism perpetrated by Islamic extremists really such an alien concept for you? (nt)

[DesertFlower]

16. no, but many times a reason is given.

didn't bin laden say 9/11 was because we had troops near Mecca?

[Matariki]

23. same as this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller

[DesertFlower]

31. even though they didn't do the killing i

hold people like fox news partly responsible. didn't O'Reilly constantly refer to him as "tiller the baby killer".

[Archae]

25. Extremists don't need a "reason."

They'll make one up.

Religious, political, economic, etc.

[Demo_Chris]

27. For radical Islam the "why" is contained in the name radical...

And thus is irrelevant. Someone willing to strap a bomb onto a kid or themselves is probably not going to give you any kind of rational explanation for why they think this is a good idea. Once you begin believing that imaginary sky monsters are giving you instructions, really anything goes. The only limiting factor is your own faith, desperation, or fear, and what this imaginary creature's earthly representatives tell you.

The "who" is equally meaningless -- the targets of this violence have no rational basis at all. In this case it was American civilians, but these folks have no problem slaughtering other Muslims. In fact, all the basic questions become meaningless when used as a tool towards understanding. Once the word "god" enters any answer objective rationality is finished.

[Lex]

29. People who blow up abortion clinics are used torqued up by religion too.

[dimbear]

34. In this particular case, it meant "wanted to do something evil, but not be the bad guy."

It's possible to be motivated by religious fervor to do things that aren't evil also. You don't hear about that so much.

[DesertFlower]

39. true. nt

[flamingdem]

41. conspiracy: what Boston person uses the word fervor?

what Boston terrorist lying in a hospital bed uses the word fervor?

I am suspicious!

[FarCenter]

46. That would be "ferva"

[flamingdem]

50. he he he you're right! evidence! nt

[DesertFlower]

49. so am i. i think there's more

to this.

[rug]

48. I'm still trying to figure out how patriotism leads to organized mass murder.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. It's been going on for a few thousand years

Was The Iliad the first lengthy examination of it? Or can Egypt or Mesopotamia furnish any good discussion of it (as opposed to the barebones reporting of it)? (I'm not saying the Iliad was 'reporting', of course, but it shows the culture must have accepted the idea of war with mass murder of opponents.)

[rug]

59. I think mass murder governed by ideology (of whatever kind) is one of the first fruits of a state.

[Tom Ripley]

52. See: Eric Rudolph

[libtodeath]

60. Religious fundies of all kinds are a danger.

[badtoworse]

69. Very true. but some are a lot more dangerous than others.