McLelland was armed to the teeth, murdered anyway

[RussBLib]

This is probably old news to some of you, but it bears repeating:

Murdered Kaufman County (TX) District Attorney Mike McLelland was armed to the teeth, and even slept with a gun under his pillow, yet he was murdered in his home anyway. It would appear that this "good guy with a gun" was unable to stop a "bad guy with a gun."

This is not really "news" to me, but somebody should nail this to Wayne LaPierre's forehead.

The Presence of Firearms Did Not Keep Texas DA From Being Assassinated In His Own Home

A common belief among many Americans seems to be that the possession of firearms somehow makes us secure in a dangerous world. Some have argued that the Newtown massacre in Connecticut might have been averted if teachers had been armed in their classrooms.

Those who hold such beliefs might want to consider the experience of Mike McLelland, who was district attorney of Kaufman County, Texas. I say was because McLelland and his wife, Cynthia, were shot and killed on Saturday by an intruder at their home some 20 miles southeast of Dallas. The slayings came less than two months after one of McLelland's chief assistants, Mark Hasse, was killed by one or more gunmen in the courthouse parking lot.

In the wake of Hasse's murder, McLelland made a number of tough public statements, vowing to apprehend the "scum" who were responsible. McLelland even made it clear that he had taken extra precautions to protect himself. The message that McLelland sent, in so many words, was this: "I am heavily armed, and I am a professional who knows how to use weapons."

Did that help keep him alive? Not exactly. Authorities say McLelland was shot multiple times while wearing his pajamas. Here is how The Dallas Morning News described McLelland's mindset after the Hasse murder:


McLelland himself had said he was taking no chances after Hasse was assassinated.

He said he carried a gun everywhere he went and always took extra care when answering the door of his home.

“I’m ahead of everybody else because, basically, I’m a soldier,” the 23-year Army veteran boasted less than two weeks ago.

forgot link: http://legalschnauzer.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-presence-of-firearms-did-not-keep.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. I read elsewhere (perhaps on DU) that he had secured his weapons for the night prior to being shot

Can't recall where at the moment.

Logically someone stands a better chance armed that not armed when you are being stalked. However its not guarantee. It just betters your chances

[catbyte]

19. Then what's the point of being armed if you just lock your guns up at night?

Did he think assassins stuck to banker's hours? That doesn't make much sense to me.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Not sure we have the good dope on this one either

Media as usual is all over the place

[catbyte]

71. You've got to be right--that just sounds weird.

[Shrike47]

2. It seems to me the problem was the murderer was someone he knew.

Murderer knocks on door, you see it's someone you've known for years and open the door. Blammo.

[Schema Thing]

7. No, not in this case.

He did know him, of course. He also believed (correctly) that he (the murderer) was the person who murdered the other DA and that he would be coming for Mcllelen himself.

[freshwest]

14. Not quite. He didn't open the door for them:

Door had been kicked in at home where Kaufman County, Texas, district attorney was found shot to death - @NBCNews

http://www.breakingnews.com/item/ahZzfmJyZWFraW5nbmV3cy13d3ctaHJkcg0LEgRTZWVkGJLc-w0M/2013/03/31/door-had-been-kicked-in-at-home-where-kaufman-county-texas-district

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/31/17534219-district-attorney-wife-shot-to-death-in-texas-county-where-assistant-da-was-killed-police-say?lite

[SunSeeker]

21. Facts, facts, facts. There you go again spouting facts and links.

And that's why I love you.

[freshwest]

24. Well, that's one fan at least, LOL.

[phantom power]

18. don't forget that most murders are by friends or family

likewise for rape. actual "random" violent crimes are the exception, not the rule.

[SoCalDem]

64. and if someone is determined to shoot you, THEY have the upper hand to start with

since they already know "the plan", and have the luxury of waiting for a good opportunity to carry it out.. The intended victim is always at the mercy of the planner.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. A lot of good that did.

Bragging about how tough and ready he was only made him look silly, too.

[gordianot]

4. You will not hear much on this angle to the story.

I have an immensely stupid sister in law who has a conceal carry permit. She maintains that she is capable of stopping the various gun massacres with her pink handled .38 revolver even in a crowded theater.

As a gun owner I do not equate firearms with personal safety. Professionals who use firearms maintain a level of awareness I do not have and a burden I do not want.

[Patiod]

16. I have a mentally ill relative by marriage, CCW, who thinks the same

and is probably going to shoot a cop one of these days instead of a Bad Guy, because he hates authority so much and is constantly discussing how he hopes a cop will pull him over so he can get into a fight.

[graham4anything]

5. Gunslingers live by the gun, die by the gun.The gun owns them.

and yet the gunslingers make fun of those w/o being Fraidycats.
While they sleep with them.

[former9thward]

6. I guess we should disband the secret service.

Both JFK and Reagan were surrounded by heavily armed men. Yet they still were shot.

[Schema Thing]

8. what we should do is speak reasonably.

and not act as if having a gun is somehow protection from a gun, or having 30 rounds is necessary for protection (or is even substantially *more* protection than having 6 rounds).


The thing about guns is that anyone with one bullet in the chamber and close enough range or good enough accuracy can kill anyone else who they have the drop on.


Sometimes it's as if gun nuts don't have the slightest clue about the concept of "having the drop" on someone.

[former9thward]

11. Guns can and do prevent crime.

All crime? -- no of course not. In the case the OP is talking about he and we do not know the facts in the case. Nothing but assumptions about what happened in the house and who was armed at the time. Utter fail in logic.

[TheCowsCameHome]

12. Nope. Gun nuts tell us a gun can't do anything all by itself.

It's been said a zillion times here.

Classic fail.

[former9thward]

13. If you think an inanimate object can do something by itself...

Then please look in a mirror when you throw around the word "nuts".

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. You just lost your own argument.

I rest my case.

Thanks for playing.

[SunSeeker]

22. LOL. nt

[Myrina]

28. +10

[billh58]

37. Aw come on now

play fair...

[Orrex]

48. Damn!

Well played!

[laundry_queen]

59. LMAO! +1 nt

[Orrex]

25. It's funny, then...

During recent threads about the possibilty of publishing the names of gun owners, the gun advocates among us were complaining the presence of their guns would in fact cause crime, because gun-fearless thieves would break in specifically to steal their guns guns guns.

In short, guns don't steal guns; people who want guns steal guns. But guns sure as hell don't seem to act as much of a deterrent if they're actually inviting crime!

[former9thward]

38. Guns are valuable.

Do we register who has safes in their house? Who has valuable paintings in their house? Who has valuable cars in their garage?

[Orrex]

42. When 19,392 people are killed annually by paintings, we can discuss your suggestion

Likewise, does anyone other than Wile E. Coyote use a safe to commit murder?

And if a car is to be driven, we certainly do register it, valuable or not.

The lethality of these items is weighed in the requirement that they be registered. Guns and cars are lethal in a way that paintings and safes are not. In addition, guns are famously offered up as the best tool for personal safety and crime prevention, despite the statistical weakness of these claims.

It remains funny, then, that gun owners should be so worried about the presence of these valuable tools specifically causing crime, rather than preventing it.


So what was your point again?

[former9thward]

53. You can't find out who has a Rolls Royce in your state.

If you can please post that link.

[Orrex]

55. Are they used in 19,392 deaths per year?

If so, please post that link.

[former9thward]

56. Cars are used in 30-50,000 deaths per year depending on the year.

Cars of every variety.

[Orrex]

61. So you're in favor of a statewide & national registry of gun ownership?

You know, just like they do with cars? My car is registered in my state, but if I get pulled over in Nevada you can be sure that they'll be able to access any information that they want about it.

Incidentally, American gun deaths to exceed traffic fatalities by 2015. What then?


Analogies between cars and guns do nothing except prove that guns should be much more tightly controlled than cars because they're much more deadly.

[former9thward]

69. We were talking about posting info for others to see.

That is what the thread/sub-thread was about. Average citizen can't see who has what cars. BTW guns are more regulated than cars. If I have cash I can buy a car this minute from a dealer or third party. They won't even ask for a driver's license. Any gun bought through a dealer has a background check (as well as most sales at gun shows because most of the dealers there are FFL holders) and then a waiting period.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. All the tough talk of guns got him was a firing squad.

[former9thward]

40. So you agree to remove secret service.

It must be a waste of money. They have failed two presidents, JFK and Reagan, but they like to talk tough about how prepared they are.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. Who gave you that talking point?

Whoever it was should be fired.

[former9thward]

54. Why because you can't answer it?

You don't like it when your own logic is used against you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. No. Because it's hilarious.

[freshwest]

58. Yes, that's a very poor one. In any case, guns seldom prevent crime, are more likely to be used to

commit one, or suicide. Which is not a crime, though.

Our president has been marked for death by the rightwing, with record numbers of death threats even before election, so a circle of protection is there, the Secret Service. They are armed, but it is said they use their bodies as shields. Bodies, not bullets.

The argument it takes good guys with guns to stop bad guys with a guns is a fail. Unarmed citizens saved lives in Tucson, AZ.:

Arizona heroes: Shining light in a time of darkness

Out of darkness, sometimes a ray of light emerges. Amidst the horror of the assassination attempt on Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, four "senior citizens" personified valor, energy and fortitude in the line of fire. Dorwin Stoddard, age 76, died shielding his wife, Mavanell, from Jared Loughner's bullets. Retired Army Col. Bill Badger, 74 and wounded in the shooting, tackled Mr. Loughner and restrained him with the help of a bystander, Roger Salzgeber.

Patricia Maisch, 61, rushed to pick up Loughner's fallen ammunition clip after he was wrestled to the ground by Badger and Salzgeber. Pima County Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik, 75, denounced the nation's rancorous political atmosphere, noting that free speech is "not without consequences."

At the other end of the age spectrum, Daniel Hernandez, a 20-year-old University of Arizona junior and intern to Rep. Giffords, is credited with possibly saving her life by applying pressure to the entry wound and placing her in an upright position so she wouldn't choke on her blood.

There are still good people in our great country. Let's keep that in mind when things get ugly.

Lois A. Engel, Washington

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011107004_pf.html

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. Let's not forget those bodies also wear vests designed to stop bullets.

Remember not too long ago when people were talking about a "panic room"?

[freshwest]

65. That's common sense when your job is to look out for maniacs and assassins. Not many have built a

Panic Room like the movie. That kind of drama is no way to live although I imagine the gun crowd really gets off to that. Just like they love the idea of the government coming to take you to the FEMA camps. Not at all practical.

The idea of being safe from all danger is a dangerous illusion. I chatted with a person living in Argentina who was describing to a forum I was on that was discussing what we'd now call Prepping.

All kinds of practical ideas were thrown up, dogs, guns, food, ammunition, moving to a remote area. He dispelled all the ideas one by one. Because urban or rural, you must sleep; your defenses can be taken down, you will eventually need something that will be denied. He had tried to fortify himself and his family and barely made it through the disaster caused by the systematic failure which led to having food, water and power shortages and lawlessness.

For Preppers, Koresh's Waco area compound is an example of an ideal way to survive. Deep water wells, ammo, guns, fuel, food and a community. We know how that turned out.

Getting far afield, but what we are really talking about is fear. And mistrust of others. A strong, healthy and caring community is the best protection there is from crime or any disaster.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Getting to know your neighbors used to be the norm...

Sometimes that can be disturbing though...

[freshwest]

67. *Women (and men) dress him with their eyes*

I have the misfortune of having two bagger relatives. One time as I was at the door, leaving after another strained visit I felt obliged to make, the pair were gleefully bragging 'And we'll be having sex tonight!!!'

It was so out of the blue to announce that, since I would never take a conversation with that pair in that direction as I'm a private person. Knowing I was single, they thought it'd make me feel bad. Honestly, they are just that kind of people.

Of course they didn't know I'd be doing the same but with my tall, lean boyfriend, who they didn't even know existed. We kept in shape, but that pair were couch potatoes and they looked like that guy. Both of them.

As I drove away, the unwanted vision of two manatees 'doing it' grunting and wheezing was all I could think of then. Nothing to be jealous of, but some people - definitely get better curtains!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

68. It's like how I can't look at Newt anymore,...

...without picturing him at the Bohemian Grove naked beating on a tom tom.

[freshwest]

70. Argh, you'd think they could afford better food. Could be RX, though...

No excuse for their bad attitude, though. Okay, no more mental pictures of repukes and baggers!

The guy in the video may have actually been a nice guy...

I told someone who was being teased about their weight, 'Just tell 'em you can lose weight, but they'll still be jerks.'

See ya later!

[rustydog]

9. Perfect example of the hole in the NRA's simplistic, prosthetic gonad response to gun violence

More and bigger is better....uh, uh, uh, uh.

[hack89]

10. He had put away all the guns hours before because of visitors.

Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland kept a gun “in every room of his house,” his son said. But McLelland couldn’t reach a weapon when his killer or killers slipped into his home Easter weekend because he had put the weapons away just hours before for the protection of some visitors, J.R. McLelland said.

“They had a party the night before and he gathered up all his guns and put them away in a bag so that his guests didn’t stumble across them,” J.R. McLelland told The Dallas Morning News.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20130408-slain-kaufman-da-s-children-say-his-guns-were-out-of-reach-the-night-he-died.ece

[SunSeeker]

32. Why would he "bag up" the gun by his bed?

Per the article you cite: “He kept a gun by every chair,” J.R. McLelland said. “He kept one on both sides of the TV, there was a shotgun hanging on the back of the couch and two by his bed.”

O.K., I can see putting away the ones on both sites of the TV and the couch if company is coming over, but the bed too? Some party!

Also, per the article you cite, "McLelland said that authorities have not shared all the details of the killings with him or his siblings."

Seems to me they don't really know where all the guns were. Sounds like they just don't want to believe their "soldier" daddy failed to outgun the bad guy, so they're making up excuses (and relying on second hand info from a party who was not quoted in the article).

Reports say McLelland’s body was found toward the rear of the house, dressed in pajamas. Sounds like he just wasn't near any of his stash points and was about to go to bed. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20130331-kaufman-county-residents-authorities-disgusted-by-killings-of-da-his-wife.ece It is very difficult to always be ready to shoot, which is what you have to be to defend yourself from an assailant. In this case, the assailant was spraying the house with an an assault rifle pumping out .223 rounds. He never stood a chance. No one would have.

[hack89]

33. Beats the hell out of me.

I am not blessed with special powers - I can only google, cut and paste like any mere mortal.

[SunSeeker]

44. You apparently think you are blessed with the special power of turning odd hearsay into fact. nt

[hack89]

46. Just pointing out that the OP missed some news reports

of course, being an anti-gun rant, you accepted the OP without question.

[SunSeeker]

62. No, you were pointing out speculation by non-witnesses to resuscitate your narrative. nt

[hack89]

63. I don't have a narrative. My first post on the subject.

Guns are not magic talismans that can protect one from all evil. Each situation is different. Since I don't own guns for self protection I haven't given the subject much more thought beyond that.

[cascadiance]

17. And famed expert sniper good guy Chris Kyle, and gun collector Keith Ratcliff were also shot...

... and killed, despite both of them being "experts" with guns...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/justice/texas-sniper-killed

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us/keith-ratliff-gun-enthusiast-of-fpsrussia-is-shot-to-death.html?_r=0

The "good guys" often times are the ones that are killed by the bad guys... And a lot of other good people are usually killed in the process too.

[lastlib]

20. "somebody should nail this to Wayne LaPierre's forehead"...

...with a pole spike!! Or two....or three.......

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. Again, why are you here? nt

[Heidi]

36. Finally! Someone in the know has arrived to enlighten us!

So, please do! We're waiting with bated breath!

[billh58]

39. Does the NRA pay you

health benefits too? No? Don't spend all of that blood money in one place now -- heah?

[NickB79]

30. And people die in house fires every year

Even with functioning smoke alarms and a fully-charged fire extinguisher under the sink.

Shit happens, even to those who think they're fully prepared. No one is ever fully prepared. Preparation will take you so far, and after that you live or die based in large part on pure luck and happenstance.

This man thought he was prepared, but as fate would have it, the gunman showed up shortly after the victim had collected all his firearms from around the house and secured them before a party. If the gunman had arrived a day earlier, or a day later, things may have gone differently. The gunman's luck held; the victim's luck ran out.

[adieu]

31. The point is

smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and better regulated building codes have reduced the number of fires and the number of people killed by fires. They won't prevent 100% all fires or deaths by fires.

On the other hand, having a gun in the house actually increases the chances of a person in the house being shot. It increases the chances of violence and injury.

A gun in the house, on a statistical basis, protects the home from gun violence like having lit flames in the house will protect from house fires.

[Stretch714]

41. Guns do sometimes save lives and stop crimes.

[link:http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=201909809627841554931.0004a99a6ee3d077dae2d&ie=UTF8&t=h&source=embed&ll=37.579413,-96.416016&spn=27.745558,61.611328&z=4|

[adieu]

43. And lit flames

could sometimes help prevent major fires. (Think of that constant lit flame, the pilot light.)

But, as I mentioned, statistically, having a gun in the house increases gun violence by 4 times. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary is irrelevant to statistical analysis.

[Stretch714]

47. Ask the woman who stopped the rapist if she cares about stats.

[Orrex]

50. Can we also ask the woman who was raped at gunpoint?

She'd probably have something to say, too.

[adieu]

51. I won't ask because I care about stats

Statistics is all that a government policy should go on. This comment seems rather ironic considering how the NRA have suggested that we shouldn't be legislating based on emotions. So it's ok to legislate pro-gun bills with emotions, but it's not ok to legislate anti-gun bills (like universal background check) with emotions (parents of Sandy Hook lobbying for passage).

I get it.

[Heidi]

35. If only his guns had had guns! (nt)

[RussBLib]

49. LOL - n/t

good one

[JI7]

52. Chris Kyle and that youtube Guy , weren't they armed also ?

when they got shot and killed ?