Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:02 AM Apr 2013

Are the Tsarnaev brothers white?


Whatever their racial status, they seem to resemble young American mass murderers more than al-Qaida members

BY JOAN WALSH


In the wake of David Sirota’s hot-button essay last week, “Let’s Hope the Boston Marathon Bomber Is a White American,” conservatives swarmed to trash Sirota and Salon. I’m not here to defend or criticize Sirota’s piece – I get in enough trouble on these issues myself — but the storm it provoked was revealing, especially once we learned the identity of the two suspects: Tamarlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, ethnic Chechens who grew up in Russia and came legally to the U.S., who were also Muslim.

Hate mail and punditry targeting Salon and Sirota declared that Sirota was not only morally wrong in hoping the terrorists would turn out to be white — but that he was proven spectacularly incorrect, because the Tsarnaev brothers are not white. “Sorry David Sirota, looks like Boston Bombing suspects are not ‘white Americans,’” wrote the folks at Newsbusters. “Is David Sirota crying uncontrollably because the Boston bombers weren’t whites??” one conservative emailed Salon. There was a lot of other email in the same tedious vein.

But are we sure the Tsarnaevs aren’t white? They are quite literally Caucasian, as in from the Caucuses: Rebecca Eisenberg helps with this handy map. And ethnically in this country, we count Americans of Russian descent, as well as Chechens, as white. Dzhokhar was a naturalized American citizen; Tamarlan had applied for citizenship but reportedly didn’t get it because of FBI concerns about his possible ties to Islamic radicals.

So why are the Tsarnaev brothers not white, at least to right-wingers? Is it only because they’re Muslim? Muslim immigrants? Or is it because they’re “bad,” and whiteness must be surrendered when white people are bad?

full column
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/22/are_the_tsarnaev_brothers_white/
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Are the Tsarnaev brothers white? (Original Post) DonViejo Apr 2013 OP
Why are people so obsessed with this? What does skin color have to do with anything? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #1
Because when Timothy McVeigh committed a terrorist act treestar Apr 2013 #26
I'm not sure how OJ fits in here Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #34
The labels that seem to be sticking are foreign and muslim. ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #2
Lone Wolves RobinA Apr 2013 #32
There are some unanswered question that leave those topics open ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #36
They look like Jesus probably looked. Smarmie Doofus Apr 2013 #3
Not really, Jesus was a Nazarene. Ikonoklast Apr 2013 #24
Of course they are white. They are whiter than me and whiter than most americans. CBGLuthier Apr 2013 #4
Origin of the term "Caucasian" Ichingcarpenter Apr 2013 #9
Assuming their ancestors haven't migrated to the Caucasion Mts, they are the whitest people byeya Apr 2013 #10
Fanaticism is not defined by religion, race, or country of origin. n/t Avalux Apr 2013 #5
But it can be encouraged by organized groups that are defined by categories. Kablooie Apr 2013 #11
I love that cat clip on your post! nt avebury Apr 2013 #13
You can just hear the cat going ... Kablooie Apr 2013 #17
I doubt such a nuanced defintion of the word white was being used The2ndWheel Apr 2013 #6
White as defined in your first paragraph is EXACTLY what was meant. cherokeeprogressive Apr 2013 #12
then be surprised. I was thinking more along the lines of Dylan/Kliebold, magical thyme Apr 2013 #16
Harris, Klebold, McVeigh, etc aren't Caucasus white though The2ndWheel Apr 2013 #28
but I don't think you got my point magical thyme Apr 2013 #43
What makes the authors think Al Qaeda terrorists are any different? Recursion Apr 2013 #7
Yes nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #8
Racist -- and not-so-racist -- Russians would say no. Brickbat Apr 2013 #14
Both sides of this issue got something. Beacool Apr 2013 #15
What the fuck does it really matter?? B2G Apr 2013 #18
They have curly hair and big noses, so they are not really white. FarCenter Apr 2013 #19
These kinds of discussions definitely prove that color isn't what defines color lately. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #20
"because of FBI concerns about his possible ties to Islamic radicals" KamaAina Apr 2013 #21
People trying to label them anything just come across looking bad. reformist2 Apr 2013 #22
"Because the world H2O Man Apr 2013 #23
Being Muslims treestar Apr 2013 #25
That's the Crux of It RobinA Apr 2013 #37
True. I imagine Pam Geller is happy about this. She can continue her anti-Muslim tirades while pampango Apr 2013 #41
They are LITERALLY Caucasian librechik Apr 2013 #27
And the twisting that Joan is going through looks painful B2G Apr 2013 #29
I Didn't Think RobinA Apr 2013 #39
Muslims represent the whole human rainbow Warpy Apr 2013 #30
The whole purpose of the "being white" has nothing to do with skin color. It's about motivation. hughee99 Apr 2013 #31
+1000 B2G Apr 2013 #33
Just curious Separation Apr 2013 #35
I work with several Bosnians and Albanians NickB79 Apr 2013 #38
Of course they are. The word Caucasian comes from the Caucasus area where they are from. Cleita Apr 2013 #40
If "real" white people apply any descriptor when referencing the brothers Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #42

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
1. Why are people so obsessed with this? What does skin color have to do with anything?
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:10 AM
Apr 2013

Timothy McVeigh was white. OJ Simpson is black. Adam Lanza was white. John Muhammed and Lee Malvo were black.

So what?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
26. Because when Timothy McVeigh committed a terrorist act
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:20 PM
Apr 2013

It was not connected to all white people. White people weren't suspect or thought more likely to commit heinous terrorist acts.

Yet when Muslims did it, to the RW, all Muslims because suspect.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
34. I'm not sure how OJ fits in here
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:50 PM
Apr 2013

He killed his wife and another guy. He knew them. He didn't randomly kill and terrorize like the others in your example.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
2. The labels that seem to be sticking are foreign and muslim.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:12 AM
Apr 2013

That they were somehow crazy or even lone wolves is not making it in the media or online.

Walsh here is protecting Salon and Sirota. Not sure her interests are the truth either.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
32. Lone Wolves
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:38 PM
Apr 2013

I suspect they are lone wolves of a sort, but that story doesn't make it because it ends with these guys - one dead and one badly injured. The sleeper cell narrative makes more interesting reading, sells content for longer, facilitates Justice Department drama, necessitates an ongoing need for law enforcement expenditures and crackdowns, and validates all the surveillence-state measures already taken. In my mind, this entire episode is well into terrorist porn territory.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
36. There are some unanswered question that leave those topics open
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:00 PM
Apr 2013

Things like:
- where did they get the guns
- how were they funded
- what did the Feds already know

will trickle out over time and feed a thousand conspiracy theories

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
24. Not really, Jesus was a Nazarene.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:18 PM
Apr 2013

He probably looked more like Yassar Arafat than someone from the Caucasus region.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
4. Of course they are white. They are whiter than me and whiter than most americans.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:21 AM
Apr 2013

As the article points out they are literally Caucasians.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
9. Origin of the term "Caucasian"
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:30 AM
Apr 2013

Origin of the term "Caucasian"

According to Leonti Mroveli, the 11th century Georgian chronicler, the word Caucasian is derived from the Vainakh ancestor Kavkas.

"The Vainakhs are the ancient natives of the Caucasus. It is noteworthy, that according to the genealogical table drawn up by Leonti Mroveli, the legendary forefather of the Vainakhs was "Kavkas", hence the name Kavkasians, one of the ethnicons met in the ancient Georgian written sources, signifying the ancestors of the Chechens and Ingush.


As appears from the above, the Vainakhs, at least by name, are presented as the most "Caucasian" people of all the Caucasians (Caucasus - Kavkas - Kavkasians) in the Georgian historical tradition.

 

byeya

(2,842 posts)
10. Assuming their ancestors haven't migrated to the Caucasion Mts, they are the whitest people
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:32 AM
Apr 2013

on the planet by definition.

(I have to say that I believe races are a social construction because humans are all one species but for the purposes of day to day existence, race matters plenty)

Kablooie

(18,625 posts)
11. But it can be encouraged by organized groups that are defined by categories.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

And religious groups seem to be behind a great deal of today's violent fanaticism.



Kablooie

(18,625 posts)
17. You can just hear the cat going ...
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:53 AM
Apr 2013

It's wonderful day in this neighborhood,
a beautiful day for a neighbor,
would you be ...
WHAT THE F*CK!?

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
6. I doubt such a nuanced defintion of the word white was being used
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:26 AM
Apr 2013

If white wasn't meant as born in the southern US to parents born in the southern US who hate public education, are Christian, and will always be gun loving and government hating nuts, I'd be surprised.

This was the issue with all of the speculation. Now we have a definition of the term white that couldn't have been what was implied in order to fit what was said into the reality that played out.

Man, I hope those bombers turn out to be white. The royal white. You know, from like the Caucasus. Any sort of white skin really. Even Russian would be ok.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
12. White as defined in your first paragraph is EXACTLY what was meant.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:39 AM
Apr 2013

Anyone who denies that is either lying or willfully ignorant.

It was hoped that ethnicity and religion could be turned into a way to politicize this event.

Both sides played that game.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
16. then be surprised. I was thinking more along the lines of Dylan/Kliebold,
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:48 AM
Apr 2013

McVeigh and other disaffected crazy, often middle class, white youth, versus al Qaeda terrorists. I suspect a large number of people were thinking along those lines as well.

So that they turned out to be white and disaffected youth was true, but so apparently is the extremist Muslim jihadist true.

Imo, we were all half-right and on the right track with our speculation

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
28. Harris, Klebold, McVeigh, etc aren't Caucasus white though
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:29 PM
Apr 2013

They're the white that was hoped for by some people. I said southern, Christian, and all that, but you get my point.

Nobody was saying I hope they're white, which could mean from the Caucasus, which is of course where the word Caucasian comes from. What else would I possibly be talking about?

It was white as in American white male, not white from an area south of Russia. To go back and claim on a technicality that white could mean any kind of white is stretching the intended definition of white in order to be correct in some way.

Like you said, the reality seems to have been a bit of both, but not really in how either side probably thought it would turn out.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
43. but I don't think you got my point
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 11:11 AM
Apr 2013

I believe most people who "wanted" him to be white meant "not black or brown." It's that simple.

I did expect home grown, but that was due to the specific holiday, which is very local to Massachusetts and New England. So I was not surprised in the least that they lived in Mass for some years. New England is a very difficult place to "settle in" to, especially Mass. The locals tend to be very insular, many with ancestors who came over on the Mayflower or even earlier. When the economy is good, it is more inclusive workwise. When jobs are tight, non-natives are the first to be shut out. Socially, never inclusive. I've lived in the region for 36 years, so have experienced the social and work isolation first hand. Even the local branch of my family excludes me. I depend on my fur-family and for the most part non-locals (transplants) for a social life.

Beyond that, I don't know how anybody ends up a terrorist, except that I expect they are clear sociopaths. Even had one not been a "misfit," I expect they would have done serious damage, just maybe less physically violent.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
7. What makes the authors think Al Qaeda terrorists are any different?
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:28 AM
Apr 2013

Seriously, why do they assume Mohammed Atta actually had religious fanaticism rather than fame-seeking nihilism in his heart?

Or, to put it a different way, when mentally disturbed non-white young men commit mass murder, we project a motive onto it that we have trouble projecting onto the mass murders committed by mentally disturbed white young men.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
15. Both sides of this issue got something.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:45 AM
Apr 2013

The Right wingers because the perps are Muslim and Sirota because they are indeed white. Those on the right who do not consider Russians white are plain ignorant.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
18. What the fuck does it really matter??
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:57 AM
Apr 2013

Those innocent people are just as dead and maimed as they would be if a purple person blew them up.

Their skin color doesn't explain their motives. Their religion does.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
21. "because of FBI concerns about his possible ties to Islamic radicals"
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:17 PM
Apr 2013

Um, first they said that Black Hat had not become a person of interest until after his death. That's when we learned he'd been in Russia for six months.

Now this. Which is it? If his ties were known beforehand, why wasn't he stopped?

edit: As to the question of color, I would sublmit that, at this point, Black Hat is blue.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
25. Being Muslims
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:19 PM
Apr 2013

The RW has been ranting about Muslims since 911. They are probably surprised to find that some of them are white.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
37. That's the Crux of It
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:07 PM
Apr 2013

Many people think for some reason that Middle Easterners aren't "white," and that all Muslims are Middle Eastern. I guess they slept through that whole Bosnia skirmish during Clinton. Anyway, maybe some Followers of Ignorance can learn something - Hey, whitey-from-Europe can be Muslim.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
41. True. I imagine Pam Geller is happy about this. She can continue her anti-Muslim tirades while
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:23 PM
Apr 2013

portraying herself as not being a racist. "Hey, these Muslims are white and I hate them."

librechik

(30,674 posts)
27. They are LITERALLY Caucasian
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:22 PM
Apr 2013

so anybody else claiming to be white has to look to them for the role model, not vice versa.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
29. And the twisting that Joan is going through looks painful
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:36 PM
Apr 2013

It's obvious that when Sirota said 'white', he was referring to white anglo saxon males born here in the US, preferably with conservative leanings. His whole piece was built around 'white privilege'. Is it his assertion that this privilege extends to foreign Islamic immigrants, one of which has only been a citizen for 6 months? Please.

None of those things came to pass, but stretch we must, eh Joan?

It's a sad yet somehow amusing article.

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
39. I Didn't Think
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:15 PM
Apr 2013

Sirota meant anything about the bombers being conservative, I just thought he didn't want them to be from the Middle East AGAIN. For the sake of the Middle Easterners in this country if nothing else. I felt the same way and I think plenty of people here on DU did as well. I can't say I know how it feels like, but I definitely feel for the people from the ME living in this country and going about their business with no more thoughts of building a bomb or crashing a plane into a building than I do, but being looked at like they might lob a grenade at any moment and hassled at airports.

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
30. Muslims represent the whole human rainbow
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:37 PM
Apr 2013

so why the hell wouldn't they be white?

Same thing with Christians across the globe, all colors are represented.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
31. The whole purpose of the "being white" has nothing to do with skin color. It's about motivation.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:38 PM
Apr 2013

The idea that the bombers were white allows one to rope them in with militia types, the NRA, RW talk show hosts, the Tea Party, anti-tax, pro-NRA racist groups (in general, people who support our political opponents). Regardless of their skin color though, I think that argument is gone since I don't think you're going to be able to convince anyone that they were acting on direction from Glen Beck, the NRA or the other RW nutbags.

This article seems to me to be an attempt to pretend like speculating they were white was about something other than an attempt to use this to gain political advantage.

Separation

(1,975 posts)
35. Just curious
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:51 PM
Apr 2013






No correlation to these three in general, or to events in Boston, but to the general question of race. The last one is Reeva Steenkamp, if she lived here in America, would she be an African American?

President Obama's mother was white, born and raised in Kansas. His father was black, born and raised in Kenya. So is he white, black, bi-racial?

Scumbag Zimmerman, has a Peruvian mother and a white father, does that make him Hispanic, white? The news reported him as a white.

When this first happened, I shook my head as people were saying its gotta be a brown Muslim, or, its a white militia tea party guy. The biggest question is, does it really matter? To some, who would want to divide and cause trouble, yes (media, racists, etc). I think, and this may be my naivete (sp?) is that it doesn't really matter to the majority of us.

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
38. I work with several Bosnians and Albanians
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:13 PM
Apr 2013

And I've actually had to correct a few other coworkers at times when they believed these individuals weren't really white. As in someone saying "I'd date her, even though she's not white" when referencing someone from Eastern Europe.

But that's what you get living in a state settled by Swedes and Germans: if you can't use freshly blown snowdrifts for camouflage, you ain't white!

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
40. Of course they are. The word Caucasian comes from the Caucasus area where they are from.
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:20 PM
Apr 2013

They aren't Nordic white if that is what you are getting at, but there are many variations of white across Europe and parts of Central Asia. It's where our references to Indo-Aryan, Indo-European and Indo-Iranian come from.

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
42. If "real" white people apply any descriptor when referencing the brothers
Mon Apr 22, 2013, 01:24 PM
Apr 2013

then they are not white.

Only non-whites need to be identified - even when their race/ethnicity/religion/etc has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Are the Tsarnaev brothers...