General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPlease keep an open mind long enough to finish this VA Democrat's blog post about gun control
As a fellow Democrat, I'm begging you.
Dear Gun Control Democrats: 6 Ways to Make a Better Argument
1. Stop Sending Mixed Messages
Allow me this humble suggestion: The best way to convince the American public that youre not interested in taking guns away is to stop talking about taking guns away.
Firstly, when your politicians are asked, Do you support state legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? as Obama was in his 1996 Senate campaign, you should never answer Yes, as Obama did. Publicly advocating a ban on all handguns is not the way to convince people that youre not interested in banning guns. Furthermore, when you are campaigning for president, never say the phrase I continue to support a (federal) ban on concealed carry, as Obama did in 2004. This gives people the impression that your intention is to prevent the states from setting reasonable guidlelines on who can defend themselves outside of their home.
...
It has become almost cliché for smirking Democrats to attempt to ridicule people like myself by crooning, Obama wants to take our guns! in a stereotyped hillbilly drawl something particularly offensive to some folks here in the south when in fact, Obama has said exactly that.
Some of you will argue that regardless of the Presidents conflicted/dishonest assertions, the legislation that died in Senate earlier this week had nothing to do with taking anything. But let us not forget the assault weapons ban, which enacted slow confiscation over a generation. I wouldnt have to immediately surrender any firearms, but because of the angle of the grip on the shotgun I own, it would be a felony offense to pass it on to a family member (or anyone else) upon my death. It would instead be confiscated by the government and presumably destroyed.
If you can't get over your absolute metaphysical certainty that "we" are wrong and you are right, the party is going to keep using you for donations and votes and then not delivering anything. That's how culture war issues work. It's why the GOP has been able to whip up sentiment on abortion for 40 years now without actually doing anything about it, because they have a base that demands nothing less than the impossible, so there's never any accountability for the pols to deliver anything.
I don't want to go over the four paragraph limit, but most of the rest of this post is very good (I think he makes his point about the NRA badly). I'll summarize what I think are his two most important points:
1.
Stop gaslighting gun owners about what politicians have said and do actually say: there is a fairly robust interest group in our party that would like civilians not to own guns, and it includes some of the leadership in Congress. Stop lying about that, we all know that's true anyways.
Come to think of it, you may honestly think that people aren't talking about taking guns away because (just bluntly) you really don't understand what the laws you're so sure are great ideas actually say, which leads me to:
2.
For God's sake, if you care enough about a law to support it and to judge people who oppose it to be crazy, learn what the hell it actually does. Don't accuse people of "derailing" when they are simply telling you what the law you advocate does. Stop accusing us of "being obsessed with grip shapes" when you're the one who wants to ban guns based solely on the angle of the grip.
Don't be Bloomberg, who on TV mixes up the difference between semi-automatic and automatic when that distinction is absolutely crucial to the law you're advocating. Don't be Carolyn McCarthy and spend 15 minutes talking about how crucially important it is to ban barrel shrouds and then be absolutely unprepared to say what a barrel shroud is. Seriously, did she not see that coming?
We have a lot of historical screw-ups like that to overcome, and step one is going to be owning up to them.
Also, prizes will be awarded to the first poster who pretends the blog author in question or I are actually Republicans or are "spouting NRA talking points", which I predict will happen by comment #5.
still_one
(92,062 posts)Deserve exactly what they get, and that not only includes gun legislation, the right to privacy, women's rights, civil rights, and of course our good friend max Baucus who insured that the ACA would not have a public option, and now is publicly trashing the legislation he created, because pele vote or don't vote, and they got us to where we are today
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)still_one
(92,062 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)they failed outright, AWB only garnered 40 votes and mag limit only garnered 45 votes, not even a majority of 51.
still_one
(92,062 posts)one you referred to unfortunately didn't stand a chance in this Congress
premium
(3,731 posts)it was weak, but at least it was a start and could have been improved upon in the future.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)What gun control activists should have learned today is that they will not get anything solely on their own terms.
What are you willing to offer the anti-gun-control side to get what you want? (If you don't know, then you haven't been listening to several of us on the board who have had ideas along these lines.)
still_one
(92,062 posts)Change
We are where we are today because a lot of people stayed home in 2010, they realized what happened in 2012 and came out
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You'll probably eventually give up on the Federal side like anti-choice people did and have to go state by state, like they are now.
If you aren't willing to give something up to achieve a policy goal, I question how much you actually want it.
luckyleftyme2
(3,880 posts)no where in the bill does it say the government will take your guns! this joker is preaching right out of the gospel of lies! 40% of the guns in this country are sold at gun auctions! No background check is needed! far to easy for a nut case or criminal to walk away with a weapon to be used against humans! the nra has less than 4 million members! the young voters think the right always supported them! the fact is they joined in after they lost an election because of a candidate lost because of anti-gun speech!
how easy the right swindles the public with lies and inuendos! then leads us into unjust wars! example :grenada,Iraq,and panama!
all were wasted tax dollars!
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)They NRA isn't an honest broker anymore. Don't include them in discussions.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)and I will support any and all efforts to do so.
An armed society can never be a free society.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Thank you.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)appal_jack
(3,813 posts)I respect your openess & honesty, but will oppose your goal wholeheartedly. While I fully believe that individuals can live a free life whether each one chooses to be armed or not, society itself must recognize the individual RKBA in order to be a free society. I believe that citizens have the rights to think dangerous ideas, speak dangerous words, protect dangerous privacies, and, yes, possess dangerous weapons. Your choice to forego weapons is fine by me. My weapons will not harm you. Nonetheless, I will remain that peaceable, but armed, citizen.
-app
TimberValley
(318 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)No, I'm not being sarcastic. I applaud you being so up front about your aims. Well done.
Paladin
(28,243 posts)....is to state in no uncertain terms that you want to take all their guns away.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)And number 5 is a two-way street pal. Show me an NRA olive-branch!
sarisataka
(18,501 posts)are Republicans spewing NRA talking points.
Not really, I just wanted the prize. Did I make it?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)sarisataka
(18,501 posts)OK, I think the blogger is too one sided, even if it is the side I favor. We see what happens when there is no real discussion- nothing. In fact there was even a step in the other direction, at the state level, which shocked me.
As much as those who hate hearing it and talk about how nit-pick terminology should not matter, legislator need to educate themselves a little bit so they stop looking like fools. If someone was proposing a law on cars and mistook the gasoline for the gas tank or said a cruise control was the same as an autopilot they would be laughed out of the room. I don't care if they know the difference between a piston or direct impingement gas system, but the should know where to find a stock, grip or barrel.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)At Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Please keep an open mind long enough to finish this VA Democrat's blog post about gun control
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022732033
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
Right-wing propaganda.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:45 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Indeed it is. Take this crap elsewhere.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree with the Alerter - it's rightwing propaganda and has no place on a Democratic Party site.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If creative ways of finding solutions to gun, and crime in general, are not sought by those favoring restrictions they will continue on the road to failure. Solutions can be achieved, but not without both sides getting honest...I swear nobody who matters wants to fix this relatively simple problem of BG checks..
If gun control supporters can't quit calling names and pretending that other Democrats are "right wingers' because they differ there will never be a solution...
I think that the OP has 25k posts...I believe the alerter should be banned for accusing another apparent Democrat of being a freeper..
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)If anyone looked at the author of the cited material, its pretty clear where they stand and its well to the left of many here, even if they do not hew to the orthodoxy that some insist on.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)it is a craps shoot..
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Of course there are exceptions to that rule, Rush Holt comes to mind for instance, but politics is more about schmoozing and manipulating than it is knowing anything about the real world. Congressmen spend half their working hours raising money, doesn't really leave much time to focus on things like facts.
Get Republicans talking about female reproductive systems for instance and the stupid becomes apparent nearly instantly.
Llewlladdwr
(2,165 posts)The grabbers will just ignore it, of course.
And then wonder why they lose....
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Llewlladdwr
(2,165 posts)Paladin
(28,243 posts)Proud of yourself?
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)(Note: this is a loaded question)
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)I'm a card-carrying "gun grabber" - here in the UK, we've gotten gun laws about right; in the USA you have gotten them spectacularly wrong.
I don't give a damn about barrel shrouds or grip angles; I don't think they make much difference - what is needed is repeal of the second and the presumption that gun ownership is a privilege and not a right.
(It's worth noting that I'm fully realistic about the fact that that's not going to happen. It's also worth noting that if by a miracle it did, it would save thousands of lives a year, and probably tens of thousands).
It's people who want half-measures gun control who need to be more specific.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)It is a nicely writen presentation of their position on the issue. You might disagree with some points, but that's irrelevant. Regardless of one's position on an issue, it is always worth the time to listen and try to understand how your adversaries see things. If you choose to ignore what they are telling you, that's fine, but on this particular issue it is a choice that will leave you where you are today--
With nothing at all other than failure, disbelief, and anger. In other words, kinda like the GOP felt following the 2012 elections.
Now you have a choice. You can use what the other side is TELLING YOU and attempt to move forward from here, or you can have nothing.
SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)I DID read the entire piece of shit. I did not ignore it. I responded to it. It appears you are the one ignoring its lies. The blogger does not want gun control to succeed. His suggestion is that gun control proponents self-immolate by declaring that want to ban all guns--even though that is not true. Thanks but no thanks. That is not constructive advice.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)The article in question is no more "full of lies" than anything you have posted on the topic -- less so in fact, as the author provides links where you offer only opinion and emotion. Whether you like it or not, here is where things stand today:
You currently have nothing. Despite all your anger and all the polls, the anti-gun side couldn't even manage to push a toothless ineffective bill through the Democratic controlled Senate, a bill that was going to die in the House regardless. So again, you have absolutely nothing.
This article is from someone on our team, the Democrat team, offering you a different perspective on the problem. I don't particularly care whether you listen or not. Gun control is not a critical issue for me either way -- largely because I don't waste my time worrying about laws that will never pass.
SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)Your describing them as "laws that will never pass" is simply wrong.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Some things are matters of opinion, and some are matter of fact. To claim that Dianne Feinstein is in favor a door-to-door confiscation of all firearms, for example, is simply a lie. One of many lies in this article.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Like all the other CIVILIZED countries do. Canadian citizens are is limited to 1 rifle and a handgun or something like that. No auto-or semi-automatics, no rocket launchers, no high-energy tactical laser guns etc. Just commonsense.
Llewlladdwr
(2,165 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)I'm a man of the world. I dont believe in re-inventing the wheel. The consensus is in. The "labs" of the world which limit gun arsenals have a tiny fraction of the gun related deaths we do. Pretty elementary stuff.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)they can have semi automatics, can own as many guns as they want, only have to be 18 to legally buy a handgun, and 12 to buy rifle and shotgun ammo.
Handguns licensed and registered since 1934
registered machine guns since 1952, but no licensing required
banned machine guns in 1977 and licensing for all firearms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I hate misinformation.
Canada has common sense regulation but does not ban or limit the amount of guns you can have. There is, however, common sense regulation. To own a handgun, you must pass a firearms safety course, get a license and register your handgun. And we have lower gun deaths because of it, although approx. half our gun deaths are from guns smuggled in from the sea of guns south of the border. And now the NRA is trying to get their stinking paws into our government to change gun laws. Fuck 'em.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but I don't think your gun murders, or murders in general are lower because of gun laws. If that were the case, Manitoba and Minnesota wouldn't have the same murder rate. Have to remember, those are national averages. There are a number of cultural differences and attitude towards violence. For example, compare a Canadian cop show like Flashpoint where the cops often talk down the suspect, and realistically portrays a police sniper's mental trauma and the investigation after each shooting. In US cop shows, the episode almost always ends in a shootout and the cops leave the scene for a beer, which has nothing to do with reality.
Canada also has less wealth inequality, which is the stronger correlation of violent crime regardless of gun laws.
There seems to be a different gun culture, at least that was the impression I got from going to gun shows there vs gun shows here.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)but I think that is a result of the gun control laws. The 2 are not mutually exclusive, I think there is a causal relationship there. JMO.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)A rocket launcher is nothing more than an empty tube, a trigger attached. The tube used to be made of aluminum, but is now cheap fiberglass. If you want to ban rocket launchers you will have to ban all plumbing supplies, drain pipes, etc.
It is the explosive warhead in the rocket that is controlled because it is a destructive device.
The limits you propose are absurd. Guns come in different sizes for different purposes. You can't hunt deer with a rabbit cartridge as it is way too weak, while a deer cartridge would blow a rabbit to pieces.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)Ask Germany (and countless others) how that worked out for them.
The old "invoking images of the US becoming Nazi Germany if guns are taken away."
grantcart
(53,061 posts)I agree that Democrats should generally stay away from the subject, at this point.
There is only one reason that we do not have a reasonable discussion about responsible gun control legislation in this country.
One.
That reason is because the NRA sabotages all reasonable discussion with lies and hysterical fear mongering.
To compare that with different positions that a candidate makes when he runs for a Senate seat and when he runs as a candidate for President and clearly stated policies in governance is really childish.
I witnessed just how the NRA works when in 1994 a discharged Air Force airman bought an assault weapon and returned to Fairchild Air Force Base and killed 5 and wounded 30 at the Base hospital (where coincidentally my cousin worked as a doctor and had the day off) to murder the doctors that found him unfit.
In the aftermath Speaker of the House Thomas Foley, a lifetime member of the NRA, came to reluctantly agree that assault weapons should be outlawed.
The NRA then dumped millions into the campaign to elect George Nethercutt. Not a single ad that was run was about guns. They shredded one of the most decent honest politicians to ever rise to the Speakership. (Foley lived modestly. He had no children and when he married the Chief of Staff of a colleague his wife came to work for him without pay.)
Foley lost by 4,000 votes (he had won before by 100,000 votes, the election before won by 25,000) under the non stop advertising.
The NRA was out for revenge and intimidation.
The only reason that a reasonable conversation about guns doesn't happen here (as it does everywhere else in the world) is not the result of missteps by Democratic candidates or politicians it is the result of a sick group of people in the Republican Party who are hate and fear mongers and the evil shits at the NRA that try to leverage fear for their own narrow concerns.
You can only have a conversation if both interlocutors have an interest. In this case our side is interested in that conversation, as evidenced by the President's record as President and moderate sentiments by Democrats, especially Congresswoman Giffords.
How does the other side respond?
Accepting in its leadership fanatics who among other things call for threatening leaders with murder
The NRA leadership sabotages a national conversation on these issues at every opportunity, and the American People know it.
reformed_military
(101 posts)I will disagree about Tom Foley. I did some work in his (at the time) new house in D.C (91 or 92). It was when he was speaker. I remember looking around at his wonderful house with swimming pool and thinking, "this guy has gone native" And he was NOT going back to Washington State any time soon. He was inside the Beltway and it struck me as off putting and I was apolitical at the time.
You also forget that during that time Foley brought suit right against the Washington State referendum imposing term limits on state reps. AND he wanted to challenge the ratification of the 27th Amendment which states that any change to Congessional pay does not take effect until the beginning of the next congress.
He was portrayed as out of touch. And he was voted out for it.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)The people of Eastern Washington were proud that he was Speaker and people liked him. People in Spokane know that they raise their children there and 90% of them move and live some where else.
Mr. Foley retained a very common touch with people and I bumped into him several times in Spokane and at that time my family was a right wing family but everyone admitted that he was a good guy.
I worked for John Sonneland's campaigns against Foley when I was a kid. (When I was working in the capitol Sonneland called me to complain that he didn't get an invitation to a particular Seattle Republican's big birthday bash - 12 months later Mr. Erlichman would be in jail.) Everyone liked this man and respected him, even those trying to defeat him.
I have relatives that are public officials in the central part of the state where rural farmers dominate. They would fly to DC and go directly to the Speaker's office. They would then go over and meat the Secretary of Agriculture, or perhaps the Vice President, or get a VIP trip thru the FBI headquarters. Many of them voted against Foley and were surprised when they went to DC the next time to find out that no one was interested in what they had to say. Some of them thought that the guy who defeated Foley would become Speaker.
But beyond your anecdotal house work are the empirical numbers. A close election for Foley was 25,000 votes. He regularly won by 60-80,000 votes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Foley
In any case all of that is irrelevant to the point of the OP.
The OP is arguing, basically, that to have a debate about guns Democrats need to be letter perfect and the NRA and its Republican lackeys can use language calling for murder but its the Democrats fault.
You are correct about him challenging term limits which is both anti democratic in nature and unconstitutional.
And that is my point.
The NRA bought wall to wall advertising under a PAC type front lambasting Foley (a lifetime member of the NRA) on the issue of Term Limits. Nethercutt ran on only one issue - he would only serve 3 terms - and then he turned around and served 5.
The NRA didn't buy any ads on gun issues they ran ads on term limits, which of course they oppose in districts where they have long term NRA lackeys serving, and this illustrates how intellectually bankrupt the NRA is and why it is impossible to have an honest discussion with them. They lie.
In the end Foley lost. But he lost by only 4,000 votes in an off election Republican landslide (Republicans picked up 50+ seats) and massive NRA opposition and this really shows that he remained popular in Spokane and would have won re-election had it not been for the completely dishonest and shameful acts of the NRA.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)(Side note: I worked in the House in '93 and knew and highly respected Speaker Foley, though I think he handled most things that year badly.)
The OP is arguing, basically, that to have a debate about guns Democrats need to be letter perfect and the NRA and its Republican lackeys can use language calling for murder but its the Democrats fault.
No. I'm arguing two very simple things:
1. We need to come clean about the fact that a lot of the party does in fact want civilians not to have guns. Not a majority, certainly, but a large, vocal, and important activist component does. This is in fact the stated goal of VPC.
2. We have a very long and unfortunate history of advocating technical firearms laws which our advocates do not remotely understand.
We need to address (not even necessarily change, just admit) both of those.
SunSeeker
(51,523 posts)First, Obama never sent "mixed messages" nor ever said he wanted to ban all handguns. Even Politifact rated that long-discredited NRA talking point as "Mostly False." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/feb/13/wayne-lapierre/nra-leader-says-barack-obama-endorsed-total-ban-ha/ This slimy blog tries to revive this lie by citing, again, to that old questionnaire from his Senate campaign that was not filled out by him and which he disavowed when it was brought to his attention that a "yes" was typed there. There is not a "a fairly robust interest group in our party that would like civilians not to own guns, and it includes some of the leadership in Congress." No leadership in Congress thinks that. We don't "all know that's true anyways" because it is NOT TRUE. Gun Control proponents are not "lying" about that. You are.
Second, for God's sake, not everyone is a gun fetishist and uses gun terminology. The sure giveaway that this post is NRA/gun nut propaganda is that it raises the 2007 gaff of poor Carolyn McCarthy, whose husband, Dennis, was killed and her son, Kevin, severely injured on a Long Island Rail Road commuter train when Colin Ferguson opened fire on passengers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_McCarthy The tragedy motivated her to run for public office to prevent such things from happening again. She is just a regular person, not a gun aficionado. Gunners love bringing up that 6-year-old gaff over and over and over again. Apparently they love to think they are super smart and all those "gun grabbers" are really stupid. Just because someone may or may not know what a barrel shroud is does not mean assault weapons should not be banned.
It seems the main point you agree with in this "blog author" on is his plea that us Dems should just admit we want to ban all guns. But the vast majority of Dems do not want to ban all guns. Hell, it is not the position of the vast majority of the folks on DU--a left of center progressive board. Those on this site who do have that position are rare, but you would like to say it is everyone who supports gun control so it fits into your "gun grabber" meme that what we really want is to ban all guns. And the reason you want to push that meme is that you want to use it to explain your ridiculous refusal to support even the most basic and reasonable gun control measures--because they are just the beginning of the "slippery slope" toward the "gun grabbers" ultimate goal of banning all guns. It's bullshit. What the vast majority of Dems (including me) want, indeed most Americans want, is what Australia and Canada already have: reasonable gun control.
You did not submit this blog for our consideration in a good faith effort to help "Gun Control Democrats" make "better" gun control arguments. You posted it in an attempt to further your anti-gun-control meme. Take your propaganda elsewhere. And please, please don't tell me you actually believe the NRA propaganda you're peddling.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,628 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)I was also disappointed with that one.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Of course, that doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
I can be for single payer, but propose to pass legislation to expand access to health care. It doesn't make my proposal a "pathway to single payer". It means until I can find a way to bring single payer to this country, I'm gonna try to do SOMETHING to improve the imperfect system we have.
I can propose reasonable gun legislation that has nothing to do with gun confiscation. If the NRA and the rest of you paranoid people are going to be convinced that it is merely a veiled attempt at confiscation, there isn't much I can do about that.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Sorry - couldn't make it through...I puked in my mouth at this point. Figured someone claiming to be a Democrat would not make up lies about Democrat senators.
This is Bullshit...and we all know it.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)This is what he's saying. Stop pretending she doesn't want that. She has said so. He posted a video of her saying so.
(Yes, that video is her talking about semi-automatics; so excuse me only 90% of guns. I can't understand why people are paranoid )
Seriously! Do you not get why your attitude is infuriating to gun owners? She's saying right there in that video that if she had the votes to confiscate 90% of firearms she would do it and you have the gall to sit here and tell me she doesn't actually want to do that?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Which everyone knows is bullshit. The trivial minutia of weapons design are irrelevant - it's the number of people the weapon can kill that matters.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)And this is why the control side will always lose the debate. We don't let conservatives say "The trivial minutia of the science of global warming" and get away with legislation based on that lack of knowledge.
You may not like it, and may not agree with it, but that trivial minutia matters a great deal
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Some technical details matter, others don't. But technical minutia are not the reason we are losing the gun debate.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)It is not the only reason. However - generally if you want to be taken seriously, it helps to understand the details. Because the details do matter when it comes to legislation - there is just no way around that.
To pretend the details don't matter weakens the control side's argument.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Where have you been? The conservatives have destroyed the environment with their bullshit 'the science isn't settled yet'. They didn't give a shit about trivial minutia THEN now did they? But, holy hell, do they care now when it concerns the gunz. And the Dems DID let them get away with it. Time and time again.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)Legislate without knowledge?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)there was a pretty good set of typical defining characteristics that separated this new wave of semi-auto assault rifles from more traditional arms. The ATF identified such features in studies on the sporting usage of guns. So it is no surprise that a representative might use those same points to try to codify the term in a meaningful way when trying to ban this specific set of guns, knowing s/he was compromising, knowing s/he had to leave the majority of SAs alone, knowing that in doing so loopholes were available to builders, which weakened the bill considerably. Lawmakers have learned since and simplifed the definition.
Eventually it won't be the trivial minutia that matters...it will be the next mass murder after the last mass murder after the one before that which causes the debate to be decided. Then you might not like how it goes.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)And all good points. I am not as versed in the history as some here. I don't own a gun, but am much more on the 2A side in general.
If we want to go the "I know pornography when I see it" route - ban changeable, cosmetic features. Even ban features, like a pistol grip, that are safer than the alternative. Where does that lead? Where will we be in 10 years? Same place we were in 2004. And now.
Let's cut to the chase. Here is what is passable in the near future - UBC and Mag caps. UBC because it's a good idea, Mag caps because it's a gift. Control thinks they get something, owners know it's a feel good law. Take all the pissing and moaning about the NRA out of it - these two proposals can garner support, even amongst a majority of gun owners. And that means legislators. Money is great - how they keep their jobs is votes. You know what the pro control side needs? Victories. Here are two they can get. It could happen in a year.
Back to the "minutia". Control will not win when it really boils down to this: with an AWB, descriptions aside, they are talking about a ban on semi automatic rifles. That's what it comes down to. One pull per shot. Everything else is noise. At least they should be straight forward and attack the issue head on. This is not a potential victory.
My biggest issue with the control side. If you're really interested in "Gun Safety" (that great new term being rolled out), can we look at where most gun deaths come from? Handguns. You want to go after all the "illegal" handguns out there, you will have owners and the NRA on your side. How should we go about that? Stop and Frisk?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Its all an attemot at compromise (willingly or not) with (hopefully) what the majority of people can be convinced they REALLY REALLY do not need.
Assault Weapons is NOT semi-autos....they really aren't...as explained in earlier post.
And handguns, after Heller? Mag limits is the best that can be hoped for - for now anyway.
Going after "Illegal handguns"? Good attempts at going after illegal guns in general get shot down right along with universal background checks and registration. Be honest - the NRA will NEVER be on that side.
Otherwise you'd be able to go about it like any other contraband - you pass the laws, you mandate the penalties; then any illegal arms you come across, you remove them and the person in possession, and possibly the source too.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)Its all an attemot at compromise (willingly or not) with (hopefully) what the majority of people can be convinced they REALLY REALLY do not need.
If you think control's efforts have been an attempt at compromise, we have different definitions of compromise. What we may be able to agree on is that the strategy doesn't seem to be working.
Assault Weapons is NOT semi-autos....they really aren't...as explained in earlier post.
Yes, I read that. Didn't work in 1994. If Control thinks it will work (or be effective) now - best of luck. 2A sees it for what it is - a feel good law that does nothing but inconvenience law abiding citizens. Banning models and features is a waste of time on all sides.
I use "Illegal" because I learned that from a pro control person here. My definition is "stolen".
get shot down right along with universal background checks and registration
If Control would learn to separate the two they might get somewhere. Even the ACLU is on 2A side here.
Do you think Control should just throw up their hands on Handguns? That seems to be what you are saying. Control is spending all this political capital (and yes - that is what is happening) on something that causes 3% of the fatalities that Control seems to be so concerned about. Objectively, that's not a smart strategy
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 08:14 AM - Edit history (1)
law written in an attempt to reduce the numbers/some portion of the guns being targeted. Think they don't know leaving the millions of mags and AWs out there is not a weak point? Think they don't know more loopholes might be exploited? Think they don't realize they are allowing millions of existing guns to be tranfered w/o control via private sales? Think they don't see it might be goofy to target one gun with one feature and not another of the same family?
BUT - such 'compromises' do give the law a better chance of being passed. And they leave plenty of types of guns untouched.
Which of course also covers your next point re:effectiveness.
UBC without registration is pretty much useless in halting the illegal flow of arms - stolen or otherwise. Registration would make such a law much more effective, especially re:straw purchases which will continue.
I'm saying controllers are being realistic in trying to get what they can. "Handguns" aren't it.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And you don't have to be a gun nerd to understand that allowing assault weapons to be readily available to the general public is a problem. Their design doesn't matter in the least. The effect, which is the amount of damage that can be done in their use - the number of people that can be killed - does.
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Anyone who uses that phrase is a liar, or an idiot, or most likely both. Even people who want to confiscate all guns (of whom Dianne Feinstein is not one of them), don't want to do it door-to-door, but rather with mandatory buybacks, like in Australia. And the fact that you would link to and even recommend this post doesn't do very much for your credibility as a "reasonable" gun advocate.
It is supremely ironic that this blogger, who on one hand is insisting that gun control advocates need to be more accurate in their descriptions of guns and gun laws, has no problem lying through his teeth about what Dianne Feinstein wants.
Here's some advice for the next "advice" column. If you want to give advice to Democrats about factual accuracy, stop pretending that banning assault weapons, banning all semi-automatics, and banning all guns are equivalent. At least Caroline McCarthy was genuinely confused about what a barrel shroud was. This guy is flat-out lying, on purpose.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)
or all guns, or all of anything else besides what she actually was talking about - assault weapons.
Since she was in FACT responding to a question about the issue with loopholes gun manufacturers were exploiting in her Assault Weapons Ban, stated during an interview about assault weapons and the '94 ban.
This BS has been going on ever since then, with anyone wishing to make a point about gun confiscation using her statement as some half-assed 'proof'.
"Do you not get why your attitude is infuriating to gun owners?"
Don't YOU get why lies and mis-leading quotes taking out of context are aggravating to honest people? You tell us she wants 90% of all guns confiscated? Fine - but you better provide more information then that old tired BS.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)and I admit that I didn't go to the link and read everything, so I don't blame you (or anyone) if you prefer not to reply since the answer may be at the link. (I've been up for a long time and I'm tired...that's why I'm not reading further, not lack of interest.)
I also admit that I'm not the most savvy person when discussing this subject, especially legislation, so I tend not to.
But the obvious question that jumped out at me is this:
Isn't banning the manufacture of certain guns and taking guns away (confiscation) two different things?
They seem to get conflated and that's what confuses me.
Even if a ban of very specific guns was passed (which it likely won't be in my lifetime), that simply means they can't be manufactured henceforth, not that existing guns are confiscated, right?
jmg257
(11,996 posts)But recently, there have been more attempts to try things like: limiting the transfers of existing weapons, register the existing weapons, in some other way limit the access to currently owned guns, and &c. This may cause a single generation attrition etc.
Depends on the law in question, really.
I.E. NY now requires registration. The federal bill just halted new manufacture. One a few years ago pretty much limited transfers to current owners only.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Sorry, that strategy doesn't work. Look what happened with the public option, or with the debt ceiling.
The fundamental error with all of these "advice" articles written by rabid gun fanatics is that they assume that the opposition consists of rational, and intelligent people who can be reasoned with. Nothing could be further from the truth. Reasonable people can disagree about whether, for example, all handguns should be banned. But no reasonable person can believe that there shouldn't be universal background checks.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's two different things.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)This blogger, aside from repeating a large number of false NRA talking points (e.g. Dianne Feinstein wants door-to-door confiscation of all guns, gun control caused--or at least facilitated--the holocaust, the second amendment protects people from their own tyrannical government, the Eric Holder "brainwash" quote taken out of context, etc.), admitted to celebrating the day that the gun control bill died, and argues against universal background checks.
LOL. With friends like these...
Sorry, but if "winning" means watering down the gun control agenda so much that even universal background checks are off the table, no thanks.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)He wants you all to legalize same-sex marriage and stop trying to dismantle Obamacare, too--but whatever we want to believe about his socialist plots, we need to worry about Congress before panicking over what the president might be willing to veto.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)My view is similar. The elimination of the rkba is the ultimate goal. Since it can't be done all at once it is being done incrementally. Anyone can see this. All the denials do is make the grabbers out to be dishonest or ignorant or both.