On Boston suspects: Maher To Defender Of Islam: Equating Christianity And Islam "Liberal Bullshit"

[The Straight Story]

HBO host Bill Maher debates guest Brian Levy, the director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University in San Bernardino, about the Boston Marathon Bombers' Muslim faith playing a role in their terrorism

"It's not like people who are Muslim who do wacky things have a monopoly on it," Levy claimed. "We have hypocrites across faiths, Jewish, Christian who say they're out for God and end up doing not so nice things."

Maher, true to form, called his guest out and said his premise was "liberal bullshit."

...

BRIAN LEVIN: But could I just interject? Look, it's not like people who are Muslim who do wacky things have a monopoly on it. We have hypocrites across faiths, Jewish, Christian who say they're out for God and end up doing not so nice things.

MAHER: You know what? Yeah, yeah. You know what? That's liberal bullshit right there. I mean, yes, all faiths --

LEVIN: Are there no Christian hypocrites?

MAHER: No, there are. They're just --

LEVIN: You make a career on that.

MAHER: They're not as dangerous. I mean, there's only one faith, for example, that kills you or wants to kill you if you draw a bad cartoon of the prophet. There’s only one faith that kills you or wants to kill you if you renounce the faith. An ex-Muslim is a very dangerous thing. Talk to Salman Rushdie after the show about Christian versus Islam. So, you know, I’m just saying, let's keep it real. (Real Time, April 19, 2013)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/04/20/maher_to_defender_of_islam_equating_christianity_and_islam_liberal_bullshit.html

[alphafemale]

1. As a faith...? It does need to grow the fuck up.

But Christians burned Joan of Arc alive...at that age. ,(of the religion)

They got better...well mostly better.

[BainsBane]

117. Christians killed 200,000 people in Iraq

on your tax dollars. Our society has got a huge advantage in the body count. Why people refuse to examine that shows just how blinded by propaganda they are.

[alphafemale]

118. No. That was not a faith based action.

Try again

[BainsBane]

121. so that makes it okay?

WTF difference does it make? Are those people any less dead? The faith was democracy and American superiority. But they died for a good cause, so it's not like those 200,000 Iraqis are nearly as important as the Americans who died in Boston. Of course an additional 5600 Americans died in Iraq too, but it was for democracy and American superiority, so that's okay.

Religion provides an ideology of justification. That's all it is, just like democracy provided the neocons with theirs. What is appalling is people here lack the ability to interrogate the propaganda they've been spoon fed to justify the biggest war machine in human history.

[Jack Sprat]

126. That's not what she said, was it?

Did she justify the Iraq War? No. Why do you make shit up for the hell of it?

[Dorian Gray]

139. Who here is justifying the Iraq war or saying

any lives lost anywhere are less worthy?

Questioning whether our war on Iraq was waged to defend or represent Christianity is NOT advocating the loss of life in Iraq for any purposes.

[BainsBane]

140. to identify Islam as a source of violence

without examining our own culture's role in violence is absurd. The point about American lives being worth more is implied in pointing to Islam a source of unacceptable violence yet paying no attention to the mass violence that our military inflicts around the world.

It is factually false on every level that Islam has prompted more loss of life than other religions or ideologies.

[snooper2]

177. Christianity went through it's dark ages, Taliban fundie types are still working through theirs

I just haven't figured out why fundies want their women to all look like ninjas

[Chathamization]

145. How about the killing of 762 to 3,500 refugees in Sabra and Shatila?

It's not that hard to find examples.

[Blue_In_AK]

153. George Bush did use the "Crusade" word to describe the mission. n/t

[OwnedByCats]

158. But the word used "figuratively"

can be used in a non religious context.

[Blue_In_AK]

163. Christianity is so interwoven with our politics

that it's hard to separate them out sometimes.

Of course, the word "crusade" has multiple meanings and applications, but GWB did make much of his being "saved" and being a devout Christian. I'm sure in his private moments he fancied himself on a "mission from God."

[OwnedByCats]

164. Quite possibly true in reference to

Bush. Would not surprise me too much if he had personal religious feelings about invading Iraq - maybe just not as blatant. Though I do think he had other motives too.

[npk]

216. Bush invoked religion more times than I can ever remember a siting US President.

And did it at times when many people could have perceived that he was using his religious beliefs to constitute policy. I believe that Bush spoke at length about how he believed the good citizens of Iraq would draw on their faith to embrace the US as prospectors of freedom and would in turn embrace our christian views. Probably a big part of the reason why Bush Jr. ignored so munch intelligence and reports from other agencies.

[cui bono]

239. But GWB doesn't know the meaning of the words he speaks. n/t

[Marr]

180. I don't think that's so clear, really.

It may not have been overtly or primarily about religion, but I expect the ingroup/outgroup thinking at play there made killing Iraqis all the more easy.

[Deep13]

228. Now you are broad brushing our culture.

Constructing the Muslim Middle East as a Saidian other is a key part of our popular norms, but also this country's official foreign policy. The norms of this society are built around Protestant Christianity. So just because the the claimed reason for the invasion and the assumed real reason of oil are not explicitly religious, religious assumptions made it possible to justify war.

[NickB79]

195. Only if you agree with the RW that we're a Christian nation

Which I think is a big, steaming pile.

[BainsBane]

205. How is it that people think religion is the only

problematic justification for murder? It MAY HAVE provided those boys with an ideology for justification, just like democracy and American superiority do for the most militaristic society in human history. The US justified murder in Iraq by spreading democracy. We kill more Muslims every single day than the number of Americans those two boys killed in their entire lives, but somehow people here refuse to interrogate their only society's role in mass murder and instead target Islam. Because hate is so much easier than actually thinking, and because most enjoy nothing more than cultivating hatred for an Other while refusing to examine their own actions or those of their own society. That's what imperialism is all about. Kill us and it's an outrage. We kill someone else and people make a million excuses.

[dkf]

226. Holy crap you think we went to war in Iraq because we are Christians?

Wow. I thought it is because we are greedy oil sucking people, not because we are Christians.

[cui bono]

236. They do still bomb health clinics and murders doctors sometimes.

And the leaders blame gays for all disasters.

But I suppose it's not exactly the same. Islam really gets its panties in a twist over cartoons.

[Deep13]

240. Christians gravitated to nationalism as the main social identity...

...during the Reformation and away from the medieval idea of Christendom as the popular, collective identity.

That may have happened in the Muslim Middle East, except interference from imperialist Atlantic states made Middle East states the puppets of British, French, and American corporations. So the people associated those states--fragments of the former Ottoman Empire--as imperialist collaborators. They found their collective identity in Islam instead. So now they see outside efforts to modernize Islam as Western attacks on their culture.

[AgingAmerican]

2. Christianity calls for the extermination of humanity

They call it "Armageddon". That's the big difference to me.

[cali]

6. that is not a central tenet of Christianity

sorry, but if you think that you need to educate yourself. Why, in defending one religion, some people find it necessary to denigrate another, is an interesting thing.

[AgingAmerican]

7. Educate myself?

I had this shit drilled into me for 9 years in an evangelical christian school.

[cali]

34. evangelical christians are hardly

the entirety of Christianity- anymore than Salafists are the entirety of Islam.

[MsPithy]

63. You are 100% correct.

It is true that the apocalypse and the rapture were not central to christianity in the past, but they are now. The Left Behind books have sold 63 million copies.

[hrmjustin]

70. The Majority of Christians in this world do not believe in the rapture.

I know this because the majority of churches in the world do not teach it.
The apocalypse is only stressed by evangelicals. The rest of us teach the book of revelation but accept it probably will not happen that way.. There was several apocolyptic books of the NT era but this one was chosen. Many Christians believe it should not have been included in the canon of the bible.

[ryan_cats]

115. You would have to look very hard to find the word 'rapture' in the Bible.

You would have to look very hard to find the word 'rapture' in the Bible.

Most of its supporters get it from:

1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord in the air".[1]

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

As a Christian, I would love for there to be a Rapture as the Tribulation time is not exactly a walk in the park.

More from about.com:
Biblical References to the Rapture:

Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NIV)

Matthew 24:40-41
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. (NIV)

John 14:1-3
Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (NIV)

Acts 1 -11
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (NIV)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (NIV)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/a/whatisrapture_2.htm:

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.



As I said, I am a Christian and have read the Bible and taken together, the description of the Rapture might be correct or not. Who know what the council of Nicea added or removed from the Bible (God said this would be a very bad idea to add or remove anything from the word). Although since God has the power to create the universe and life, I'm sure he can ensure that the words he wanted us to read remain uncorrupted.

Nevertheless, I try (and fail frequently) to be worthy of being Raptured or maybe, I'll die before it happens although I can't remember the verse but I seem to recall that even the dead are brought back to life for the final battle. I hope I'm wrong or misinterpreted what I read.

Oh yeah, whenever people discuss Christianity, they always mention horrible things from many centuries ago. I would say that they were not Christians in any shape or form to commit these evil things and they got to hear words you never in your life want to hear, "depart from me, I knew you not."


How many Christians have flown planes into buildings lately?

[hrmjustin]

133. You can read scripture many different ways but the rapture is a 19 century invention by

evangelicals. Christians did not really believe in the rapture so much before that. Christians and Muslims have done too many things in the name of God that is far from what God wants.

[cali]

148. John Darby. Premillennial Dispensationalism

yep. American, early 19th century.

[Art_from_Ark]

222. It goes back much farther than that

All the way back to ancient times

http://psychology1.knoji.com/end-of-the-world-predictions-from-the-first-millennium-to-mayan-calendar-predictions/

[cali]

223. well, yes and no.

All the major religions ( and some less major ones) contain end-time beliefs, but that article is not a good one. The term and structure of premillennial dispensationalism is a 19th century construct. There have always been end time beliefs within Christian Eschatology- chiliasm and montanism are early examples and you can further trace that back to Zorastianism.

Although Historians don't generally consider the year 1000 and the years leading up to it as hugely significant in the study of Christian Eschatology, there were any number of sects that held premillennial beliefs throughout the middle ages and later.

In short, there's historical premillennialsim and dispensational premillennialism.

[AgingAmerican]

146. There are a lot of powerful ones in our government

Scary thought.

[cali]

98. They are central to certain fundamentalists- not even all of them

[azurnoir]

40. wow the Resurrection isn't a central tennet of Christianity?

because that is also central to Armageddon, in fact the two go hand in hand, but if you say so

[cali]

55. nope. not as practiced by many branches of Christianity.

It's central to fundamentalists certainly, but not to Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians and others. It's been de-emphasized for quite some time.

It's absurd to think that every branch of Islam emphasizes the same things and it's equally absurd to believe that every branch of Christianity emphasizes the same parts of the bible.

This is really basic stuff.

[azurnoir]

57. I'm not a Christian but at least you admit it is central to some brands of Christianity

of Christianity and I am glad you admit that every branch of any given religion is the same, a point that did not seem present in your initial comment

[cali]

94. how azurnoiresque. Admit? No, I'm not "admitting" to anything.

I'm trying to put out accurate info

my graduate studies were in millenarianism- which nowadays scholars consider to encompass all end time beliefs, not merely part of Christian eschatology.

One of the seminal works on traditional millenarianism is Norman Cohn's book In Pursuit of the Millennium. It is fascinating and not a hard read for those with little background in the subject. He focuses on the hotbed of of millenarianism in the middle ages, but he updated recent editions before his recent death.


http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Millennium-Revolutionary-Millenarians-Anarchists/dp/0195004566

The branches of Christianity today that focus on Revelation and Armageddon grew out of the millenarian movements of the middle ages and the revival of that belief system that took place- largely in the U.S. in the 19th century.

Wikipedia has a fairly decent article about the book of Revelation. And the entry on Armageddon isn't bad either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon

[azurnoir]

97. well of course your not lol

but your own special brand og personal attack is duly noted as always and I am aware of what your attempting to do here

[cali]

101. I'm attempting to inform

I actually happen to know a bit about this.

but continue with your passive aggressive stuff.

[azurnoir]

102. well of course you do

and your reduced name calling now I see

[cali]

104. no, just noting behavior.

and yeah, doing graduate work in any given area of study, can indeed lead to one knowing a bit about said area of study.

[azurnoir]

106. well yes of course you are :)

[dsc]

62. You are wrong about this

The Resurrection is separate from Armageddon. Armageddon comes from a literal interpretation of Revelation while the Resurrection comes from the Gospels. They are completely different books and more to the point there is a long history of treating Revelation as an allegory about Rome and not a literal prophesy.

[azurnoir]

65. the Resurrection is portrayed as happening as a part of Armageddon

either the beginning or the end but your protests are noted

[dsc]

74. Revelation may mention the resurrection

it has been ages since I read it so I don't honestly recall, but the precipitating trigger for Armageddon is the second coming of Christ, not the first Resurrection which is portrayed in all four Gospels.

[azurnoir]

81. well what is the Resurrection

if not the second coming of Christ, what is being Resurrected?

[dsc]

86. The Resurrection refers to the immediate aftermath of the crucifiction

he was crucified on Friday (Good Friday) and rose on Sunday (Easter). He ascended to Heaven 40 days later. Revelation refers to him coming back down to earth again to live as a man.

[azurnoir]

90. well then my mistake in terms I was thinking of the second coming

as I said I am not a Christian but the point still stands the return of Jesus is one of the central tenets of Christianity and it is part of Armageddon

[cali]

95. ack. you should stop digging, hon. you really don't know what you're talking about

[azurnoir]

100. ack I noted my mistake in terms down thread perhaps you should read more:)

Resurrection vs Second Coming of Christ

[cali]

103. Seriously, if you don't know about something- and you've demonstated that you

know little about this, why keep going on about it?

[azurnoir]

105. I'm simply replying to you

do you want the last word then the stage is yours

[Union Scribe]

186. Ah, DU theology classes.

[azurnoir]

200. yes any mention of Islam seems to really bring out the

well bring out something in some folks here, IMO Maher is an Islamophobe, and in yours he is______________

and I'm curious what did you self delete it was a reply to me I'm curious and no I would not alert

[randome]

38. But Christians do not, as a whole, go out to purposely murder others.

[rogus]

61. just like

..the guy who murdered abortion doctor Tiller in Kansas. He certainly thought he was a christian.

[randome]

93. Christians definitely have their nutcases.

Do Muslims have more? Not that it's a contest but it seems that way from a strictly numeric standpoint.

When Pat Robertson declares we deserve death for our beliefs, is that fundamentally different from a Muslim cleric MANDATING death for women or gays who don't toe the line?

[Blue_In_AK]

155. I believe it's Christians in Uganda who proposed

the "kill the gays" law that Rachel was reporting on a couple of years ago.

[randome]

169. I get your point but that's still an isolated situation.

Not quite comparable, perhaps, with leaders of nations calling for the same and then legions of followers only too happy to carry out the edicts.

I sure as hell don't believe that Christianity is somehow 'better' than other religions. But is Islam 'worse' than Christianity? All religions seem to conspire in a race to the bottom, IMO.

[Skip Intro]

45. What? Many believe it is prophecy, they don't call for it. n/t

[hrmjustin]

49. Where does Jesus say anything about Extermination?

[Pelican]

165. Hmm..

[hrmjustin]

175. With all do respect this is not an answer.

Where does Jesus say anything about extermination. The westboro baptist church is not christianity. It is a cult.

[Pelican]

189. You're overthinking it...

.. or under.

Maybe just not a fan of Doctor Who...

In any case, don't worry about it. Just a gag...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

128. You're confusing "Christianity" with "What I would like Christianity to be".

Christianity *is* the religion practiced by Christians. If Christians don't believe things, they aren't part of Christianity, even if *you* think they really ought to be.

Virtually no Christians believe that their religion calls for the extermination of humanity.

[marshall]

132. You're misunderstanding the concept of Armageddon

It is completely different from militant jihad.

[Deep13]

231. Some parts of it do.

They think the end of the world will be happy, fun time. That's why they are so supportive of Israel. They think the reestablishment of the state of Israel and the reconstruction of the temple are necessary preconditions for the end times.

Most Christians, however, believe in the end times as allegorical.

[Fumesucker]

3. George W Bush was famous for stating Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher

And he killed far more innocent people than all the terrorist attacks in modern history put together.

I generally like Maher but he's wrong on this one.

[UrbScotty]

12. He was trying to get votes in a majority-Christian country.

Doesn't mean he actually believed many of the tenets of Christianity. And his actions sure didn't remind us of Christ.

His words said one thing; his actions spoke louder.

[Fumesucker]

13. You're going with the "No true Scotsman" argument?

Seriously?

[UrbScotty]

17. Does anyone *really* think W (or any Republican politician) would talk about God/Jesus if America

was a majority atheist country?

No.

They don't talk about Jesus just because they believe in Christian teachings; they talk about him because that's what they think it takes to get elected here.

[Fumesucker]

21. Obama did the same thing

[UrbScotty]

37. But his actions are more in line with actual Christian behavior. Dubya? Not so much.

[Fumesucker]

39. I know a great many Christians who think Bush was the bees knees n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

172. So, which one of them is the true Scotsman?

[cui bono]

250. Can you show how they are? I don't see it.

Increased drone strikes killing innocent people.

Increased warrantless wiretapping - after claiming his would be the most transparent admin ever. Double whammy.

Selling out the working/middle class to protect the rich.

What actions of his are "Christian"?

[hrmjustin]

51. Do you think Bush followed the teachings of Christ? I don't!

[Fumesucker]

107. I think very, very few people follow all the teachings of the Christ n/t

[pangaia]

46. I thought he indicated, even said

that god told him to invade Iraq. I could be wrong. It happened once before.

[MrBig]

76. I was curious so I looked it up

It sounds like something he would say. Apparently it was denied by the White House that he said it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4320586.stm

During a meeting with Palestinian leaders at a Summit, Palestinian officials said Bush made comments insinuating that a higher power told him to wipe the terrorists out of Iraq and Afghanistan. White House denied he made those comments. Verdict: Who knows, but I tend to believe he said it.

[Deep13]

233. Well, that's your view of Christianity.

I'm not going to assume your view of it is the right one while Dubya's was the wrong interpretation. I suspect the odds that either of you are right is about the same. Anyway, I don't have any particular reason to think his statements on his religious beliefs were false.

[Tanuki]

178. Bush pulled Jesus' name out of his ass at a debate

when he was asked to name his favorite "political philosopher." He said it in the most despicably smug tone and it was obvious to me, at the time, that he only said it because he could not actually name a political philosopher, ignoramus that he was. Bush clearly did not live or govern by the tenets of Jesus.

[Fumesucker]

179. You don't think Bush was a Christian?

In my mind he's every bit as much a Christian as say bin Laden was a Muslim.

Who precisely lives and or governs by *all* of the tenets of Jesus?

I'm not sure it's impossible to do so but clearly it's extremely difficult.

[eShirl]

4. He might try opening a History book once in a while.

[RZM]

9. He's talking about now, not 800 years ago

Big difference.

[Jack Sprat]

19. Huge difference.

The apologists will cite the Spanish Inquisition as an excuse for the maiming and bombing last week.

[awoke_in_2003]

89. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

[jeff47]

84. You might want to read post #8 below. (nt)

[Deep13]

234. I wish there were more good popular history books on Islam.

I read scholarly books and articles on the subject and on Middle East history generally for my master's degree. These, however, are pretty technical and not suitable for non-academics.

I would recommend Orientalism by Edward Said to any above-average reader.

[sagat]

5. Maher nails it, as usual.

[Xithras]

8. Northern Ireland, the KKK, etc. One need not look far to see Christian terrorism in action.

In Peru in 2011, Christian evangelists executed 11 traditional shamans for their religious beliefs.

The Concerned Christians group was deported from Israel in 1999 because of a plot to blow up the Al Aqsa mosque.

Eric Rudolph bombed the 1996 Olympics because of his religious beliefs.

Sincee 1977, the Army of God and other Christian anti-abortion terrorists have carried out 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons and sent in 619 bomb threats against healthcare clinics, supporting facilities, and individuals connected to either of them.

The NLFT is one of the most active terrorist groups in the world, and fights in India to establish a Christian state. They have "converted" thousands of Bengalis at gunpoint, and have been implicated in dozens of deaths, including the mass executions of over 40 Hindus in two incidents about 10 years ago.

I could go on and on, but there's no need. There have been THOUSANDS of incidents of violence perpetrated by "peaceful Christians" over the past few decades which have killed many hundreds of people. While it's true that none have flown any jumbo jets into skyscrapers, the difference is more a matter of scale than frequency. Christians, overall, are just as capable of violently promoting their religion as Muslims are.

[tblue37]

14. But the media do not REPORT those terrorist acts

as acts of Christian terrorism, but as outliers or lone wolf acts. Nor do politicians squawk loudly about how we must be on the alert for the possibility that Christian terrorists might attack us because they hate us for our freedoms.

Thus, when an outlier Christian group does act that way, they don't get the sort of press that Muslim terrorists get, not just for their actions, but also for their religious affiliation.

[curlyred]

25. This.

[Blue_In_AK]

156. That's absolutely right.

[Spider Jerusalem]

229. Terrorism by Christians isn't "Christian terrorism"

and the KKK and IRA aren't specifically religiously motivated. The KKK's targets are blacks, Jews, Catholics, anyone who isn't a white Protestant, but they're a racist hate group, not a religious one; the IRA target Protestants, and the loyalist groups target Catholics, not because of religion as much as culture and ethnicity and 400 years of ugly history. The IRA's Catholicism is secondary to their sense of themselves as specifially Irish; the Ulster loyalists' Protestantism is secondary to their sense of themselves as specifically British. Their motives arise from what we'd call ethnic nationalism, not religion (because religion is a defining aspect of national/cultural identity).

[Xithras]

245. The KKK wasn't a religious group?

The stated goal of the KKK, especially in the first half of the 20th century, was to establish the U.S. as a "white, Protestant Christian nation". Their meetings always began and ended with prayers, were full of Christian hymns, and they considered themselves to be doing God's work, as if they were God's own army. Religion was a core and driving part of their activities...there's a reason why they burned a CROSS. The religious aspects of the Klan did begin to fade in the 1960's, but it's still one of the ideals that the organization was founded on, and is still maintained today.

As as for the IRA, I do believe that there was a big disconnect between American IRA supporters like my grandfather (who sent vast sums of cash to the IRA to support their war before doing that was banned) and actual IRA members in Ireland. For IRA supporters like my grandfather, religion played a HUGE role. He used to say that the war wouldn't end until Ireland drove the snakes back into the sea. He wasn't talking about the kind that slithers, and he didn't care that most of them are historically Irish. To him, and most of the IRA supporters like him that I met, there was no room in Ireland for Protestants ANYWHERE. The war would end when the last Protestant was killed or driven out.


FWIW, Muslims don't usually kill because of faith either. Muslims, Christians, and Jews have lived together for millennia without the sort of terrorism we see today. Most of the "Muslim" complaints about the west aren't really about religious differences, but are about cultural clashes and western foreign policy (a form of ethnic nationalism). In that regard, modern Muslim terrorists are really no different than the KKK or IRA. They may cloak themselves in religion to justify their actions, and may use their faith to drum up support, but the underlying conflict isn't really about religion at all.

[Spider Jerusalem]

246. No, the KKK wasn't a religious organisation.

And do you know why they burned a cross? It has very little to do with religion. It's a Scots tradition, very very old. Highland chieftains would burn a cross on a hillside as a signal that battle was joined, calling all clan members to rally under their banner. The symbolism has more to do with the "Klan" part of "Ku Klux Klan" and the idea of blacks/Jews/Catholics as not only alien but enemy.

And American IRA supporters have no place in the discussion; they're neither Irish nor in Ireland. (Having a grandfather who was Irish doesn't make you Irish.)

[Xithras]

248. Lol.

The cross thing actually comes from the movie Birth of a Nation, as do most of the KKK's symbols. The first KKK didn't use that kind of thing, and it only came about after the movie ushered in the Klan's rebirth. The movie pulled the imagery from the Klan's own Christian roots. The Klan itself used the cross as both a simple of intimidation, and as a sign of Christian fellowship among their supporters.

As for "Having a grandfather who was Irish doesn't make you Irish." Well, that's a pretty fucking offensive thing to say. I'm American by birth and Irish by blood. To deny someones cultural identity because of a line on the ground is petty and bigoted.

[Spider Jerusalem]

249. You know what they'd call you in Ireland?

Plastic Paddy. Sorry if you're offended, but if you went to Ireland and claimed to be Irish you'd get laughed at.


And as to the origins of the burning cross, it came from the novel that "Birth of a Nation" was based on...and the author got it from, yes, Scottish history; the following is from 1856:

The symbol was sometimes called the fiery cross, sometimes the crossterie or crossteric. It was made as Scott has described, by tying two pieces of wood into a cross, burning the ends, and extinguishing them in the blood of an animal. This is said to be symbolic of the fire and sword with which those who failed to obey the summons were to be visited, but it is not unlikely that the ceremony was a remnant of some ancient heathen sacrificial superstition. It was the method in which the chief assembled his Highland followers for war and for other purposes. It was considered the strongest form of invocation, and when other and feebler appeals had failed, this was sometimes had recourse to. It was repeatedly employed in 1689 and the '45 but probably never since. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xp0HAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

[MNBrewer]

10. I'd say they both have a point.

[randome]

41. You don't need to 'split the baby' to see that, do you?

I agree with another poster -Islam needs to 'grow up' a bit. But I have no problem with any Muslims I know and I don't see that I ever will.

[whatchamacallit]

11. Bill Mayer is BM n/t

[Aerows]

15. I'm not seeing people bombing in the name of Christianity

in the US.

Unless it is abortion clinics. Or bombing buildings. Unless it is the Alfred Murrah building.

I honestly wouldn't trust either as a religion of peace if my life depended upon it, because some of the adherents have twisted it into something ugly, in some cases.

Not ALL but some.

[whatchamacallit]

18. No, we're just bombing the fuck out of everyone else over "our beliefs"

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm

[Fumesucker]

22. Amen, brother n/t

[Lucky Luciano]

79. They are bombing people for $$$ and nothing else. nt

[Fumesucker]

184. God Bless America

In God We Trust

Every politician's ending of every speech and what's on our currency.

Telling that we put God on our money, isn't it.

So in a way, the US really is bombing people for our beliefs.

[Jack Sprat]

16. For sure.

I said much the same thing last night before having my post condemned unanimously for being disruptive by the Islamic apologists and hypocrites.

The hypocrites get on here and say all manner of derogatory things about Christianity. They will cite the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and 15th century Roman Catholic abuses, which were all relevant to that time in history, but not at all an excuse for present day in the 21st century.

I'm grateful and pleased that Bill Maher isn't buying the BS and that Rushdie doesn't either. These killers have been allowed to create a dangerous world, costing nations millions of dollars in extra security. A damnable religion that kills, maims, and makes population center fearful needs worldwide condemnation and defending it is just naïve to the point of absurdity.

I will probably have this one alerted on as well. Fine. I want to be on record for defending innocent people in NYC and Boston, who have been killed by fanatics of this damned religion. The newlyweds who both lost legs keep coming to mind whenever I see these apologists deny that this is somehow a peaceful faith. Bullshit.

[byeya]

30. Nazism was a Christian phenomenon. Their aircraft, for example, had two Christian crosses

for every Nazi swasitka and the soldiers' belt buckles said God With Us.
In Italy, it was Mussolini you sign the pact with the Vatican to get the Vatican to recognize the Italian state.

[Jack Sprat]

42. Spanish Inquisition, Crusades,

and Roman Catholic cruelties in past centuries had a plethora of relevance to their time in history. Christians of modern day are not the cause of people being groped at airports. Christians of modern day are not the reason we have Homeland Security and security worries at any public events like the Boston Marathon. Christians of modern day are not making terrorist threats around the world. Sure, Christianity has some insane fanatics today. But are they an international threat at airports and population centers all over the world?

[byeya]

50. Christians are at war with women's health care facilities and have committed murder and

deprived people of their Constitutional rights. Christians are doing their best to relegate women to permanent second class status.

The RC church has been implicated to organized sexual attacks on young people in their care.

[Jack Sprat]

66. Correct, but

you haven't answered my question. Despite all the wrong-doing cited in your examples of bad Christians, do we have billions of dollars of added security and Homeland Security Depts because of the Christian religion? Are people all over the world on heightened alert of terrorism because of the Christian religion? Are those good people of Boston who were killed and maimed victims of Christianity?

[jeff47]

91. #1) We just claim secular reasons for those alerts.

#2) Yes. Remember, the world is not just the United States.
#3) I really don't think you want to start a body-count race. Remember, you haven't heard about the massive slaughters in Africa on behalf of Christianity.

[Jack Sprat]

110. So all that added security

in international airports the world over is in place because of Christian terrorists? Baloney!

[jeff47]

114. There's more locations in this world than airports.

Or are you going to argue that abortion clinics don't have massive levels of security? Or is that "OK" since fewer people enter them?

Or are the massive increase in security surrounding the Olympics not related to the 1996 bombing by a Christian fundamentalist?

Or that Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK didn't change their security at all?

How 'bout the kids who need to suddenly move to a different town because they successfully removed the 10 Commandments or other scripture from their public schools?

[Jack Sprat]

123. Hey Jeff

Enough of your nonsense. I'm not playing this game. Islamic fanatics are a threat all over this world and you damn well know it. It gives me the creeps even talking to an apologist for their violence. Get in your final say. I'm done with your kind.

[jeff47]

124. I'm not apologizing for them. That's your desperate attempt to dismiss me.

There are Muslims who use their faith to justify terrorism.
There are Christians who use their faith to justify terrorism.
There are Hindus who use their faith to justify terrorism.
There are Communists who use their faith to justify terrorism.

That doesn't mean those faiths are bad. It means those people are bad, regardless of their faith.

But it is utterly wrong to claim religious superiority based on you not hearing about such people.

[Blue_In_AK]

159. Are you paranoid much?

You are much more likely to be killed by some random shooter, or some guy driving with a 2.0 alcohol level, or maybe even by your spouse if he or she was having a bad day. All this concentration on the terrorist threat is propaganda. How about the threat caused by careless unregulated businesses that blow up entire towns or flood neighborhoods with leaking oil?

[Jack Sprat]

199. Seems like you are unable

to answer a simple question either.

[jeff47]

87. The fact that you don't hear what Christians do in Africa, Asia

or even the Americas doesn't mean Christians don't commit their own atrocities today.

[Jack Sprat]

116. Are Christians planting bombs in Africa, Asia?

Are they hijacking planes and blowing up buildings? Did we have to set up an entire new department of security to watch over airplanes, train stations, and power stations because of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist threats?

No matter how much you dislike Christians, you cannot convince me or any other rational person that the world is having to deal with international terror threats due to any other religion than Islam.

Your arguments have become tiresome. Rational people like Bill Maher, Salmon Rushdie, and millions of others believe your religion, Islam, as being a haven for terrorism worldwide. I find it difficult to believe that people can look at the victims of their terrorism, and still defend it.

[jeff47]

119. Yes.

They're also butchering people of other faiths. For example, you might have heard about the guy named Kony...

Are they hijacking planes and blowing up buildings?

Yep.

Did we have to set up an entire new department of security to watch over airplanes, train stations, and power stations because of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist threats?

Not in the US, because we just keep claiming Christians conducting these attacks are one-offs or individual crazies.

But again, the failing here is you're only looking at the United States. The people slaughtering entire villages in Africa are Christians too.

No matter how much you dislike Christians, you cannot convince me or any other rational person that the world is having to deal with international terror threats due to any other religion than Islam.

And once you realize there's about 6.7 billion people outside the United States, you might be ready to look at what some of them are experiencing.

I find it difficult to believe that people can look at the victims of their terrorism, and still defend it.

The fact that you are not willing to look at places like Northern Ireland, Africa, India, and parts of South America doesn't mean Christians are all well-behaved.

Heck, families in the US have to suddenly move when they successfully remove the 10 commandments or other scripture from public schools. But since you think terrorism only counts in airports, you aren't considering those.

There are Muslims who use their faith to justify terrorism. There are Christians who use their faith to justify terrorism. There's people of pretty much every faith who use their faith to justify terrorism. That doesn't mean their faith is bad. It means those people are.

[Blue_In_AK]

157. Wow.

I don't even know what to say. You are basically condemning up to 2 billion people on the basis of their religious belief, their heritage. How dare you? Look back in history and see the consequences of that kind of thinking. What this world needs is more tolerance, not more hatred.

[Blue_In_AK]

207. As I've pointed out elsewhere

I have family members who are Muslim and are some of the most tolerant people you'd ever want to meet. My daughter is married to a Muslim man who treats her like a queen. You sound like the intolerant one here.

[Jack Sprat]

213. Very telling admission.

Now kindly allow me to place you on my Ignore List so that I will not be communicating with a terror apologist again. I think I owe that to the innocent victims in Boston, both the dead and still seriously injured. Good riddance.

[Blue_In_AK]

214. That's fine, Jack.

You just go right ahead and do that. I don't think I want to know you, either.

[Violet_Crumble]

218. If being opposed to anti-Muslim bigotry makes me a 'terror apologist', put me on ignore too...

It's revolting that you've called a good DUer a terror apologist because she told you her family members were Muslims.

[uppityperson]

220. If being against bigotry gets DUers a place on your ignore list, add me also.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

219. Rude, crude, and bigoted remarks nt

[pipoman]

20. People in these parts

tend to defend the atrocities of Islam by trying to equate it to Christianity...I know a lot of Christians...I've never met one who wanted to kill people who talk badly about their god, who killed their 12 yo daughter for running away from her bequeathed 37 year old husband, or going out with her head uncovered, or riding a bike in public, or the hundred or so other ridiculous, idiotic infractions which result in horrible punishments for the women it their societies. And of course this is the tip of the iceberg on the utter stupidity of a pretty large portion of Islam.

No, Maher has it right. He is an atheist but can still see the reality of the stone age faith of Islam, and the complete idiocy who proclaim modern day Christianity 'just as bad'.

[Dreamer Tatum]

23. I am still waiting to see the severed heads

that resulted from "Piss Christ" or the picture of Mary festooned with elephant shit.

And I'll be waiting a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time, too.

Meanwhile, when you draw a picture of Mohammed....

[EnviroBat]

182. I really do have to weigh in here...

As I'm becoming increasingly disgusted by "apologists" for a religion that garners its ideology from these teachings. Fundamentalist or not this is what Islam teaches. Now the truth may be hard to stomach for some of you, but tough shit.


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Tabari 7: 97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

[CrawlingChaos]

26. Stop reading propaganda and try getting to know actual Muslim people

All those prejudices will melt away.

[snagglepuss]

32. You forgot the sarcasm smilie.

[pangaia]

56. Bravo !!!

[SpartanDem]

31. Well I know Muslims and I've never met any one of them

that would do anyone of those things that you listed and to say that represents a large portion of Islam is just ignorance.

[pipoman]

47. Remember, given the history of Islamic retaliation for even minor

dis's of Mohamad or Islam, I'm just guessing this disertation, being subject to revision by about anyone, is pretty conservative in their deserved criticism..

Islam, the protection from misogynistic criticism apparently..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

[Blue_In_AK]

160. Absolutely.

I have Muslim in-laws. They're wonderful people who I like very much. South African émigrés to Australia during apartheid days.

[pangaia]

54. I could also say that ...

....I know a lot of Muslims...I've never met one who wanted to kill people who talk badly about their god, who killed their 12 yo daughter for running away from her bequeathed 37 year old husband, or going out with her head uncovered, or riding a bike in public, or the hundred or so other ridiculous, idiotic infractions which result in horrible punishments for the women it their societies....

And I DO say that.

[pipoman]

134. So Islamic countries don't practice extreme misogynistic abuse of women?...

gottcha..

[Blue_In_AK]

161. You think there's no extreme misogynistic abuse of women in this Christian country?

I could tell you a thing or two about that.

[pipoman]

170. It isn't legal or socially acceptable...of coarse you knew that..

[jeff47]

92. I'm happy to learn Africa and India don't exist.

You know, places where Christians do what you describe in the name of their faith.

[redgreenandblue]

151. American Christians supported the Iraq war.

One of the biggest atrocities of the 21st century, committed in the name of Christianity and with full support of the Christian establishment of the USA.

[Deep13]

232. I know a lot of Muslims and none of them is murderous.

I will say that one cannot separate religion from the wider culture--they influence each other--and it is true that in most ways, the West is more advanced that many Middle Eastern or central Asian countries on the rights of women. Still, very few of them encourage things like honor killings. Where they happen, it is often in contravention of the official law.

[smirkymonkey]

253. +1000

I would have to agree with you there. I am no fan of Christianity, but in current times, I don't think it is nearly as murderous as radical Islam.

[CrawlingChaos]

24. Maher is a longstanding anti-Muslim bigot and hatemonger

I saw that disgusting (but typical for Maher) segment and I applauded when Mr. Levin suggested he might introduce Maher to a potential girlfriend named Pamela Geller! And rightly so, because there is no substantive difference between the rhetoric of Bill Maher and the likes of Pamela Geller and Robert Spenser. They all want you to think of Muslims as less than human.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Maher makes like they're all a bunch of primitive savages.

[SunSeeker]

125. If so, it's ironic his show was yanked after he said the 9/11 hijackers weren't cowardly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher

[hrmjustin]

242. If you noticed he doesn't like any religion at all. Yes he harps on Muslims a bit more but he

also harps on the treatment of Women in some Muslim countries and he is right about that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

27. Muslims DO respect other faiths though....

Whenever referring to another religious leader they say, "Peace be upon him".

[snagglepuss]

35. They only do that to certain Christian and Jewish figures. They certainly do not confer peace on

Vishnu, Kali, Krishna, Zues, Thor, Buddha, etc

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. Are you talking about Kashmir?

[snagglepuss]

71. No I'm talking about non-Abrahamic faiths like polytheism

[Spitfire of ATJ]

75. I don't know where you are getting that from.

[Recursion]

154. It's true. Peace Be Upon Him ("swt") is reserved for "prophets of the book"

That is to say, in practice, Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and Zarathustra.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

192. You are wrong. It's also used as a sign of respect for other faiths.

[Recursion]

193. Sorry, my years in the Middle East must have misled me

[Spitfire of ATJ]

194. Must be, because the Americanized ones expand it.

[Recursion]

196. I have no doubt some do

That wouldn't be very popular in Islamabad or Cairo, however.

OTOH maybe in Kuala Lumpur. The honorific is traditionally extended only to those I mentioned, though.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

197. I know a Jewish woman who uses it for anyone who has passed away.

[Deep13]

237. We-e-ell, they often respect other people of different religions...

...but Islam's respect for Jews and Christians is pretty qualified. That respect is completely nonexistent for anyone religious outside of the Abrahamic religions.

I want to make it clear, that I am talking about Islam generally and not necessarily those who believe in it. The Muslims who teach my language classes are all very respectful, warm, and very nice people.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

241. "The Muslims who teach my language classes are all very respectful, warm, and very nice people."

Which is more than you can say for many American "Christians" who seem eager to bathe their hands in the blood of anyone who they see as "evil". (And that definition is pretty broad.)

[MisterP]

28. "guy proclaiming himself to be universally bigoted shows slight inconsistency in the universalism of

his bigotry"

heck, this whole "stages of progress" thing went out with Boas (let alone Said)--but bringing actual historical analysis (which sees theology as one of many different dimensions of life, not the Sole Driver of all human action) to Gellarism is bringing a gun to a knife fight

[uponit7771]

33. I'd like a non white, non christian (or affiliated), non western male to make said assessment ...

... and I don't see much if any of this coming from that group

[RVN VET]

36. Religion is at the bottom of all terrorist acts

except when it isn't.

Most religions have, at center, an ethos of compassion and brotherhood. All religions have, on their fringes and sometimes boring a little close to center, men and women devoid of conscience who will cold bloodedly kill people in the name of their religion.

Maher was correct about Islam providing a seed bed for hatred and slaughter. He was incorrect in his tacit assumption that Christianity does not provide its own seedbed.

But the genocides in the USSR were motivated by a non-theist belief -- Communism -- and so were the depredations upon the Chinese and Tibetans. Stalin and Mao were not religious men nor did they tolerate or permit the toleration of religion. (Stalin, of course, successfully undermined the State Religion in Russia, co-opting it to his own ends.) But, interestingly, if you look to the core ethos of Communism, you'll find brotherhood and compassion.

It's not religion. It's not philosophy. In Vietnam years ago a friend of mine summed it up perfectly in conversation with an Army chaplain: "People suck. Maybe not every person, but enough to make a difference, enough to piss on everyone's party." And Voltaire -- who should be the intellectual friend of every thinking person -- said, centuries ago, "Il faut cultiver nos jardins." He didn't mean for us to turn our backs on the world's suffering, but to do what we can to bring about whatever good we can without getting sucked under by despair or, on the other hand, pretending everything is going to get wonderfully better.

[GaYellowDawg]

167. This is a very good reply.

I wish it had been one of the initial replies, because it covers just about everything. It's one of the most clear, concise things I've ever seen written on DU.

[azurnoir]

43. yep Maher would know about that wouldn't he?

I came to my conclusions about Maher and Islam watching Religilous when Maher gave a young American Muslim woman the Bill O'Reilly treatment because she wasn't saying what he wanted to hear

[LWolf]

44. Christianity is a violent faith.

Are we not still engaged in modern Crusades?

Have we not taught the modern generation to view Islam as something extreme, and Muslims as extremists?

Who got tackled on the spot in Boston?

Keeping it real would involve acknowledging the anti-Islam/Arab propaganda here in the U.S., acknowledging that the U.S. is NOT a xtian nation, and acknowledging that the xtian god is violent, is vengeful, and has called on followers to be so as well.

[hrmjustin]

53. The crusades was centuries ago.

Islamophobia is real because I have seen it here in NYC so you won't get an argument from me on that.

Christianity is not a violent religion!!! Christians can use the religion to be violent. If you read the words of Jesus you will see he was not violent.

[LWolf]

59. Centuries ago.

Yep. We haven't sent armies to fight muslim nations in the middle east since then. It's just been a hotbed of puppies and rainbows since Saladin and King Richard negotiated that treaty.

I have read the bible. Cover to cover.

Fundamentalist Christians do not restrict themselves to Jesus and the New Testament. They embrace the WHOLE Bible.

As I said: violent.

[hrmjustin]

64. The iraq war was not a war of christianity versus islam. It was Bush's war.

If you are going to judge Muslims and Christians by their crazies than of course it will look violent. But the fact is believers of all faith practice their faiths without killing people or hurting them.

[LWolf]

69. Of course it was.

That Islam-inspired attack gave him the legitimacy his administration lacked and an excuse to prosecute the war he wanted under the misnomer "war on terror."

The feeding of fear, the creation of the "us" (not Islamic) and "them" (Islamic) mindset that muslims are terrorists...that wasn't a crusade.

Just like the Pope just wanted routes open to Jerusalem for xtian Pilgrims; his "holy war" was all about church control of the holy land, and not about trade routes, about Turkish influence on the Byzantine Empire...

of course it was.

After all, if you call it a "crusade" it must be, and if you don't, it can't be.

[hrmjustin]

72. I could not disagree with you more.

The war was about oil not religion. As I said the crusades happened centuries ago. There are plenty of episodes in recent history of Christians killing people for religion but the crusades is not one of them.

[LWolf]

78. You're free to disagree all you like.

That's no skin off my nose.

And your disagreement doesn't make your argument any less simplistic.

[hrmjustin]

80. Well I am going to say is not all chistians are what you think we are.

[LWolf]

83. Well, you should probably think about that and

correct your misunderstandings. I haven't said anything at all about all "chistians" or about what I think about christians in general.

You have no idea what I think christians are.

My comments were about the Christian God as characterized in the Bible. I could start quoting scripture and keep going until bedtime tonight without running out of examples. I'm not going to; I have some other things more important to do with my day off.

[hrmjustin]

85. fair enough!

Have a good day off!

[jeff47]

96. Psst....there's this place called "Africa". You might just read a bit about it. (nt)

[hrmjustin]

99. Enlighten me!

[jeff47]

112. Post #8 has a high-level summary.

Which you can find here if you don't want to scroll up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2729499

Aside from that list, there's also the countries voting on "kill the gays" bills, which are all Christian nations. There's also Kony, who's a Christian fundamentalist. There's also the multiple civil wars where Christians slaughtered people of rival faiths.

And that's just Africa. There's additional abuse in South America and Asia. Christianity is only somewhat peaceful in the Western world....as long as you ignore all the things like abortion clinic bombings.

[hrmjustin]

113. Ok you got me on that one.

Unfortunately for centuries Islam and Christians have been fighting religious wars and it has been nothing but harmful in Africa.

[LeftyChristian]

252. In proper perspective...

While Christian hands are by no means clean, they are also not the only entity in Africa causing problems. People need to understand that regardless of which side they sympathize with, all sides have plenty of blame to share.

Boko Haram

You only need to google "Coptic Christians in Egypt" to see what the "Arab Spring" is doing to them.

[Sgent]

227. It could be argued

that our support of Israel is in many ways a crusade by proxy. I say this as a Jew who supports the existence of Israel -- but it certainly contains elements of a Crusade.

[hrmjustin]

48. Muslims need to have a modern day reformation.

They need to come together in councils and isolate the conservatives and try to make moderation the order of the day.

[randome]

52. I agree with that.

[Apophis]

58. I agree with Bill.

[davidthegnome]

60. Inaccurate.

Either historically, or today, Christianity is no less violent than Islam. The primary difference is that the Nations of the west where Christianity is more common have more money and more power... and that when we kill people, we call it either war on terror, or, "unfortunate casualties". Christians not as dangerous? No, just not as openly so, not as obviously so - and not as hyped up by the media. Not despised and hated by America's right wing machine, because the people that run the right wing machine are usually "Christian" themselves.

I do not like organized religion. Everyone has a right to their own spiritual and philosophical beliefs, but to claim that one or another is more dangerous is the true bull shit here. As Maher has gleefully pointed out in the past, they are selling an invisible product, that people eagerly buy because it is damnably hard to find meaning in this age.

If we are going to generalize, Christianity is in actuality even MORE dangerous than Islam. Speaking generally, the "Christian Nations" of the west developed nuclear weapons, the hydrogen bomb, they created, enabled and promoted the crusades. Our own so called Christian Nation is, in fact, the only one to ever use a nuclear weapon (two of them, actually) against a civilian populace. Those who think that we're much better now should consider the long years of sanctions, bombing, and destruction in Iraq. It should be considered what our drones are doing now. Is this Christian policy, or American policy?

If everything Muslims do has some connection to them being Muslim, then the same must hold true of Christianity.

It's all bull shit, really. People do evil things - and need no encouragement nor even inspiration from religion. Religion just most often serves as a convenient excuse. "Well, God told me to do it..."

[MrSlayer]

68. Maher ripped that dude to shreds.

He's right on every point he made in that interview.

[ErikJ]

73. Christian denial of Climate Change has DOOMED the planet!!

I know these devout Christians. THe Rapture is what they pray for so they will be the only ones saved. The GOP corporatocracy knows this so they cann deny Climate Change with their voters blessings. THey hav a suicide pact going that benefits both.

[hrmjustin]

77. Not all devout Christians believe in the rapture, but yes too Many Christians have turned their

heads away from the reality of climate change. But many churches are involved in the fight against climate change.

[ErikJ]

129. Suicide Religion

Fundy Christians are no different than the fundamentalist Muslims. They both pray for the Rapture to take them to Paradise.

[hrmjustin]

131. The rapture is 19th century invention.

[ErikJ]

137. But End Times theology has been around forever.

Very easy to Con the fundies into believing End Times.

[hrmjustin]

138. Yes it is and to get back to your orignial point fundamentalist Christians are not helping with

Global warming.

[freshwest]

82. In a narrow context he is correct, but only that. I'm much more worried about this:

They destroying our nation and not above using violent means.

[starroute]

88. Islam does have some hangups that Christianity doesn't

One is that after getting the crap kicked out of them, first by the Mongols and then by Tamerlane, the Middle East became poorer, less willing to innovate, and more set in an archaic form of tribalism.

Another is that there's very little separation of church and state in Islam. Christianity had to contend from the start with the Roman Empire, and even when the emperors became Christians and started appointing the archbishops, there was a degree of separation. But the Persian Empire crumpled before the onslaught of Islam, and the caliphs were both religious and secular leaders.

The fact that Mohammed had declared there would be no priesthood in Islam, although it seemed like a good idea at the time, also meant there was no way for a strong church and a strong state to coexist, creating a useful balance of powers.

And a third might be that Islam didn't absorb a healthy dose of paganism the way Christianity and Buddhism did. It's very otherworldly, very purist, and inclined to be suspicious of the ways of the world. Even that no-drawings-of-Mohammed thing doesn't mean no nasty caricatures -- it means no drawings, period, because that would be a kind of idolatry.

At present, all these things are reinforcing one another. Muslims, on average, tend to be out of tune with current Western mores. They resist adapting to those mores because they see secular society in general as impious and un-Islamic. And they have no basis for acknowledging that secular society and a strong current of personal religion can coexist. As long as those things are true, they may condemn the actions of the extreme fundamentalists, but they're also compelled to regard them as defenders of Islam against outside attacks. And they themselves are going to have to figure out a way past that trap.

[Blue_In_AK]

162. Most of the Muslims I know are secular

I suppose I'm Christian because that's how I was raised. I have certain viewpoints that are an outgrowth of that, but I never go to church now. It's the same with the Muslims I know. They're lapsed. They're just like most of the rest of us. Of course, this must vary with the different cultures around the world, and I can only speak from my own experience, but the Muslim people I've met, who are from Australia and Great Britain, are modern secular people.

[closeupready]

108. When are folks going to wake up - Maher is a clown.

He entertains viewers for cash. Nothing more.

He's paid so well, that he's 1%.

And if you think that he won't do whatever he needs to in order to preserve his personal wealth, you must be a child.

[Vietnameravet]

109. What we like to think is that all religions are peaceful and we can all get along but

.As liberals we like to think that all people and all religions are basically peaceful and we can all get along but that might not be true..
.I know several Muslims and one even refers to me a her brother..but i was told that Islam not only tells them how to live spiritually but also instructs them on how governments should be run and how people should be governed..

It really reminds me of Christianity... hundreds of years ago..

[Hugabear]

111. You mean how like Christians want to kill gays?

You know, how they support the death penalty for homosexuality in Uganda?

After all, if we're painting with a broad brush...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

130. You missed out the words "a tiny fraction of".

Maher missed out the words "a significant fraction of".

Both are inaccurate broadbrushing, but his is a lot less inaccurate.

[MellowDem]

120. It's a false equivalency, one born out of privilege here in the US...

of not having to deal with Islam. Liberals here must deal with Christianity in all its wonderful forms much more on a day to day basis in our politics, so the personal experience, the personal animosity that builds up towards that particular belief system trumps Islam, which seems almost irrelevant, and which even seems sympathetic in the context of the US, as a minority, and liberals can emphatize with other minorities generally.

Still, it is irrational and not based on logic, it is a false equivalency. I see this on DU all the time, and it has gotten downright obnoxious. Though criticism of all religions on here is still hard to do without so much offense, given the privilege religion still has even here, criticism of Islam especially brings out the alerters and naysayers, so much so that it's to the point that anyone who does criticize Islam MUST qualify it with "and Christians do it too", or be called out on that same overworn point.

Islam, as a whole, has more true believers than Christianity, or more consistent believers I guess I should say, and of course that makes it more dangerous on the whole, and means it is committing far more harm. Just read the Koran to see why, anyone who truly believes in that, any society, much less government that rules based on it will have serious issues. We already know this from the Bible or the Torah, terribly immoral books, and which are still pushed by fundamentalists in our own country every day to great harm.

All of these belief systems based on such stone-age morality and concepts such as "faith" are inherently opposed to progressivism and inherently dangerous, so of course the belief system that is still taken the most seriously by its followers, instead of having been relegated to centuries of "apologetics" and intellectually dishonest re-writing in order to survive as some sort of relevant organization in the modern world, will be the most dangerous and the most harmful.

[Dragonfli]

122. I disagree with the entire argument, Equating Terrorism with Religion is "Atheist Bullshit"

Belief is often centered around politics, not religion, especially in acts of terrorism. Acts of terror when not political are usually the result of deranged sociopaths that use all manner of things to justify their desire to kill and/or maim others.

terrorism noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. It has been used throughout history by political organizations of both the left and the right, by nationalist and ethnic groups, and by revolutionaries. Although usually thought of as a means of destabilizing or overthrowing existing political institutions, terror also has been employed by governments against their own people to suppress dissent;...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism

The belief that terrorists are mostly religious fanatics, is subjective nonsense and the need to believe so is silly at best, or a tool to generate hatred towards an ethnicity or common religion at worse.

It is a way to demonize entire cultures of people based on the most common religion of their region or ethnicity. "All Muslims are prone to violence and terrorism" for instance is bullshit because only an extremely small minority of Muslims are terrorists, and frankly the few that are, are largely deluded and likely being used by people that have political motives.
Similarly "Christians are a bunch of abortion clinic bombers" is equal bullshit because only an extremely small minority of Christians are terrorists, and frankly the few that are, are largely deluded and likely being used by people that have political motives.

I am sure I need not remind you of similar distortions concerning the Jewish faith and ethnicity. Or Witches (neo-pagan), or dozens of others.

Most terror is about politics and that proves to me that politics can be the most evil religion of all.

Can people of faith be silly, judgemental and bigoted? Definitely, seen a lot of that first hand but broad brushes are extremely inaccurate, many of faith are quite the opposite - I have also seen that first hand.
It is not only people of faith that can be silly, judgemental and bigoted as evidenced by Bill (I love his comedy and agree with him on some other things)

I should not have to add at this point that even atheists have political views and are just as likely as any other to force their politics through terror and fear.

I believe none of the myths should be interpreted outside of a Jungian context.
I believe myth is a part of our consciousness and most are archetypal and can help us to understand ourselves and not some Deity.

In the end, my statements in the paragraph above are nothing more than things I believe based on reading books, perhaps that makes it my religion

LUCKY ME, I get to now be attacked by both people of faith and atheists, so have at me and have fun, I just hope it makes you'll feel better

[Jamaal510]

136. +1

[BainsBane]

141. well said.

[G_j]

127. gee.. I wonder what manifest destiny was all about?

you know, and the genocide committed on the original Americans?

[rollin74]

135. I think Maher is correct about this

[EmeraldCityGrl]

142. Maher made the distinction that we are talking

about the current time in history. He stated there was a time Christianity
was a more dangerous, brutal religion.

[Zorra]

143. Wiki List of Islamist Terrorist Attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

[Chathamization]

144. Rioting against a cartoon is better than rioting in support of pedophile enablers

and yet I don't see people painting all Penn State students and alum with that broad a brush. I also don't see people talking about the dangers of Buddhism because of the anti-muslim persecution that's happened in Burma (or because of the Sri Lankan conflict), and neither do I see comments about Sikhs for what individual Sikhs have done (and more people were killed when a white supremacist shot up a Sikh temple last year, but who cares about that?). There's plenty of justified talk about Christian terrorism, but not as much about anti-government quasi-libertarian terrorism. As I said, watch out for those libertarians.

And of course, a terrorist organization isn't one when it's one you like.

The focus on Islam should be offensive both for anyone who stands against bigotry but also for anyone who care about even a marginally informed discourse.

Oh, and for anyone paying attention this week, one incident of lax regulation in West, Texas killed more people than the two crazy teenagers in Boston did.

[HiPointDem]

147. maher is a fucking tool. smarmy, creepy, arrogant. and *stupid* though he fancies himself

highly intelligent.

[Zorra]

173. Whose tool? He's certainly not a tool of conservativism.

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:54 AM - Edit history (2)

Definitely not a tool of religion.

A tool of the wealthy radical left dedicated to bringing the scourge of godless communism down upon the masses of the deceived?

It appears to me that he is not afraid to speak truth to power.

[HiPointDem]

198. 'truth to power' = lololololol

[Zorra]

203. Whose tool? nt

[HiPointDem]

204. 14. tool

1.) A guy with a hugely over-inflated ego, who in an attempt to get un-due attention for himself, will act like a jackass, because, in his deluded state, he will think it's going to make him look cool, or make others want to be like him. The person may even insincerely apologize later on, but only in an attempt to get more attention, or to excuse his blatantly intentional, and unrepentantly tool-ish behavior.

2.) Someone whose ego FAR exceeds his talent, intelligence, and likeability. But, of course, he is clueless regarding that fact. He erroneously thinks he is THE MAN!

3.) Someone who others normally refer to as a prick, dick, or schmuck.

4.) Someone who acts like a dick, because...well...he's compensating.

[Zorra]

206. Ah, I see. You couldn't really answer the question, so you made something up.

That only works on a very few of the more gullible people here.

We need more people speaking out. This country is not overrun with rebels and free thinkers. It's overrun with sheep and conformists.
~ Bill Maher

"I don't hate America. I love America. I want it to be better. The only way we can get it to be better is to realistically criticize what's wrong with it. That's not what the Republicans do."
~ Bill Maher

'Freedom isn't free. It shouldn't be a bragging point that 'Oh, I don't get involved in politics,' as if that makes someone cleaner. No, that makes you derelict of duty in a republic. Liars and panderers in government would have a much harder time of it if so many people didn't insist on their right to remain ignorant and blindly agreeable."
~ Bill Maher

[HiPointDem]

209. i answered the question. a tool = a dick. you just choose not to accept the answer.

maher is a tool, a dick, an asshole, & a smarmster.

[Zorra]

215. Sorry, I couldn't find that definition in any dictionary.

troll tool ~
/to͞ol/
Noun
A device or implement, esp. one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

[YoungDemCA]

149. Not a fair comparison...

..since many Islamic countries have suffered greatly from poverty, colonialism, political repression of the masses, and isolation.

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

166. Agree how much of religious radicalization has to do with the

effects of colonialism? Dividing up countries according to European conquest doesn't make for a rational world.

[redgreenandblue]

150. Dear Mr. Maher. I always enjoy listening to you. I understand your perspective. However,...

... in this case you are wrong.

Westerners always love to lament about the superiority of their culture to others. In particular the Islamic world is a popular object of Western disdain. However, there is one important part missing from this picture: The West is not all that different from the Islamic world.

We like to think we have left the "barbaric" stage of human development way behind us. And true enough, there are some ways in which the West is more modern. However, in particular in the US, conditions such as in the worst
examples of the Islamic world have existed not too long ago. Not in the "middle ages", less than a century ago.

My great-grandmother was "given away" into marriage to a much older man at the age of twelve and subsequently
had 15 kids. This was not Afghanistan, this was rural Tennessee. I am given to understand that this was quite the norm in her times. If the Christian fundamentalists were not outgunned by the secular state, they would go right back
to these times.

The reason people like to beat on Islam is that it reminds us of things we would like to forget about ourselves. It is a way to deflect from the "white man's burden".

Here is the thing: The Western white Christians used to be, and in part are, much much worse than Muslims. And no, I don't mean the middle ages.

I mean the last two centuries. Take the holocaust, two World Wars in which entire cities were bombed to ashes and in which millions died. The creation and use of nuclear weapons by white Western "Christians". Take the slave industry in North America and the systemic discrimination of blacks to this day, with full support of the churches. Take the global consequences of colonialism and imperialism, committed with full support of the churches. The exploitation of Africa. The systematic destruction of the natural environment. Factory farming. Industrialized killing of humans through drone warfare. The invasion of Iraq, labeled a crusade by a GW Bush. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Support of Fascism in Latin America. The financial and military support of the worst of the Islamic theocrats to this day.

So yes, "them" Muslims have some "barbaric" traditions. However, in the broader context, nothing in the Islamic world comes even close to the scale of the atrocities committed by the "Christian West" in the last two centuries. The Muslims have not even close to produced the same body count or spread pain and suffering throughout the world in any comparable way.

Thus, the Muslims are not only different from us. They are better.

To paraphrase Malcolm X: There is no bigger murderer and slave owner in the world than the white "christian" man.

[Blue_In_AK]

152. I'm generally a fan of Bill Maher

but his virulent Islamophobia is disgusting. I thought he was extremely rude to that guest and made himself look really bad.

[sabrina 1]

168. Isn't Bush a 'Christian'? How many did he kill over his eight year reign of terror?

Bush: 'Jesus is my hero' and 'I talk to my Heavenly Father' when asked if he got advice from Bush 1.


How many were tortured by Bush?

There are extremists in every religion. Unfortunately some of ours stole the 2000 election and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

[One of the 99]

174. Tell that to Dr. George Tiller

and other victims of abortion clinic bombings. Tell that to victims of the IRA or the JDL. Maher is talking out of his ass again.

[LittleBlue]

176. Rwanda? Bosnia?

Those were both genocides committed by Christians.

Maher is a wannabe political Howard Stern. His anti-intellectual "straight talk" is a tired tactic used by many, all the way from Billo to South Park.

[Marr]

181. They're clearly not identical players as of today, no.

But can they be equated? I think so. I don't think one is less an enabler of violence than the other.

No, we don't have international Christian terrorist groups terrorizing the Middle East-- but that's because we have an organized military for that. And that's also a large part of why we have international Muslim terrorists.

The Muslim faith does indeed appear backwards and brutal today, and all too willing to tolerate and even promote violence-- much more so than Christianity. But the differences, I think, are lot less stark if you don't restrict your view to places of worship and instead look at the societies broadly. Can any of us really sit here and say the US has been more a promoter of peace in the last century? I can't.

[Union Scribe]

188. DU relativism.

1. It is flat out BIGOTRY to blame or smear all Muslims or Islam when a Muslim or even a group of Muslims does something wrong. (correct)

2. Sit back as I smear Christianity with everything bad from the last 2000 years to show how wrong it is to smear Islam.

[Blue_In_AK]

190. Someone up thread said it best.

There are good and bad people in all religions. There are good and bad people who believe in no religion. We shouldn't stereotype any single group on the basis of what a few of its members do.

[marshall]

210. I'd settle for concentrating on the last fifteen years

Or at least focus on events during my lifetime, or my parents, or maybe my grandparents.

[Zax2me]

212. Keep your pen handy

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/world/americas/2-arrested-in-plot-to-attack-passenger-train-canada-says.html?_r=0
More by the hour

[Rex]

191. Liberal bullshit? The meme, 'both parties do it' is not exclusive to the Left.

Bill sure can be an idiot at times. I mean sure, Islam has some incredibly violent extremists right now - but so did Christians back in the heyday of Christianity. Dangerous? Bill you seriously went there? I would surmise most religions have dangerous secs that demand unwavering faith 'or else'. The majority (from what I see with my own two eyes) just want to go to church and say their prayers on Sundays...not much danger in them imo.

[gejohnston]

202. equating all or most Christians Muslims with

fundamentalists and fringe groups is bullshit

[Quantess]

208. What's Al Qaeda's favorite religion, again?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/22/pol-terror-plot-ontario-quebec-arrests.html

[2ndAmForComputers]

211. The (very real) lower level of violence in Christianity is not the merit of Christianity.

It's the Enlightenment and liberal thought, which for historical accident happened in a part of the world that was predominantly Christian.

[Buzz Clik]

217. Just watched this version of Real Time. Maher was a complete prick to his guest.

Maher acted as if he is the only person with any knowledge, he never tried to tap into his Levin's area of expertise, and he was endlessly insulting.

Maher needs to stop acting like a complete asshole for ten seconds. He should try watching Jon Stewart to see how to completely disagree with a guest without be a total turd.

[alp227]

221. I think both were right, but Maher went overboard with that "liberal BS" statement.

Criticizing Maher's viewpoint: What about the abortion doctors murdered by Christian extremists like Paul Jennings Hill and Scott Roeder?

Defending Maher: But Muslims have been the most violent and aggressive over the most trivial issues like political cartoons of Muhammad.

[hrmjustin]

225. That is not true.

I am sorry but that is not true at all.

[Deep13]

230. Gross over simpification.

Muslim identity is constructed around many things including the tenets of Islam, reactions to imperialism, national norms, and other things. So it is not true that Islam makes people want to be terrorists. One the other hand some things that are only tangential to Islam do want to make people to commit acts of violence. For people in many majority Muslim countries, religion is part of the national identity, so political or economic complaints often become religious complaints.

[olddots]

235. Maher blows his timing sometimes -this was a weird one

he looked like he knew he blew it with the liberal bullshit comment and that he steam rolled the quest.


at least the VICE show he produces is good ----he may be burning out like most everyone on earth .

[hrmjustin]

243. I think all religions have their fanatics. We can all go through modern day crimes by members of all

faiths. I think though in countries where the there is no strong tradition of the rule of law and civil rights these problem people will flourish. I also think Islam is in need of a reformation by it's believers. Than again my faith Christianity could also use one as well.

[cecilfirefox]

247. It's ironic, I got into a FB argument just an hour ago with someone

who was equating all Islam to terrorism and violence.

Yet, I completely agree with what Bill Maher said.

It is a delicate issue, but let's be clear- only one religion kills people for bad cartoons.

[HockeyMom]

251. As an converted Athiest,

when have we killed in the name of ANY god?

[Deep13]

254. We haven't, but that really isn't the point, or at least not the whole point.

I'm sure religious zealots have pointed out that officially atheist regimes have committed mass atrocities, even though they were not specifically religious in nature. They were, however, quite irrational and accepted the dogma of the regime as an article of faith. Likewise, those who do kill in the name of a god are similarly irrational, partly because they believe they have a religious imperative for violence, but also for reasons Westerners would consider secular. The reaction to Western imperialism and Middle Eastern nationalism are often conceptualized in religious terms. Further, practices and ideals that either were barely religious or only peripherally so became part of the sectarian thinking in the 19th and 20th centuries. So while Islamic fanaticism is expressed in religious terms, it is often a stand in for other issues. Nevertheless, I have to think that without a religious rationale, much of that violence would not go as far as it does.

[Alva Goldbook]

255. I was a little frustrated with Maher.

Maher started criticizing the guy before he could even make a statement. I like Maher, and I am a stone cold Atheist, but I wasn't familiar with his guest, and would have liked for the guy to be able to state his position before Maher started tearing it to shreds.

But, yeh, Maher was right. Muslims really are more dangerous than Christians. Of course, I'm surrounded by nutty Christians, Muslims not so much. Christians are more invasive, Muslims are just more explosive. Pick your poison.

[ecstatic]

256. This is a tough one... I would have to review the numbers before forming an opinion

At first glance, the islamic extremist actions get a lot more attention; but I would factor in all the small scale murders (hate crimes due to sexual orientation, religion, interracial dating, abortion) and it could very well be that christian extremists have claimed more victims.