The "enemy combatant" question. It's not just about the suspect's rights, it's about OUR rights.

[scarletwoman]

It's about our rights, as U.S. citizens, to be able to witness a fair and open trial of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. It's about our rights to have knowledge of the evidence, of the arguments, of how the proceedings unfold.

It's about our rights to know exactly what case is being made by the State on our behalf - what the questions are, what the answers are. We are the "People" in any court proceeding framed as "The People vs. ____________". It's OUR right to have the trial take place in open court. WE are the injured party.

The idiot assholes on the right who want to whisk Dzhokhar off to Gitmo for a trial by military tribunal not only want to curtail HIS Constitutional rights, they want to curtail OURS as well, by denying us access to a public trial, conducted in the open.

I don't care how you feel about the bomber himself, you need at least to speak up loud and clear for OUR rights to have his trial open and accessable to all of us.

sw

[randome]

1. It's only a question in the coal-like hearts of Pointlessly Pontificating Politicians.

I'd say that 99 percent of us don't agree with 'enemy combatant' crap, especially when something like this happens inside our borders.

In a war zone, I can see it from a different perspective.

[undeterred]

2. And if you've ever been the victim of the crime

this becomes very important. You want everything to be done right the first time.

Because no scenario is more horrible than having someone who is guilty as sin walk out of court smiling at you because their rights were violated by an improper search or some other abuse of justice. You want the perpetrators to get a fair trial and be sent to prison fairly so that they will be punished and can never harm you or anyone else again.

[rustydog]

11. To ensure they do not screw up a case,

The Republican party, supreme court and chickenshit Democrats allowed "enhanced interrogation" (TORTURE) techniques of suspects of terror acts, innocent people turned in for the 25 thousand dollar reward for "Terror suspects", arrest and imprisonment without trial,

Extraordinary rendition. Declarations of "Enemy Combatant" so that you do not have to follow our system of justice.

All because this Nation allowed cowardly, ineffectual half-intelligent people to scare the shit out of us days after 9-11. These completely ineffectual intellectual dwarfs had to change the nomenclature and rules, because when they play by the rules they lose.

Demonize the "obviously guilty" bad guy so that we as a Nation will allow basic human rights to be stripped from not only evil terrorists but American citizens.

THIS PERSON IS A SUSPECT. PERIOD. He has a right to trial by jury (should he chose to be tried before a jury) and the government must present it's evidence (proof) against him. He has the constitutionally-guaranteed right to present evidence in his defense and then, the evidence must be weighed and a verdict rendered.

That is how America operates...well, that is the was she did operate until we allowed the GOP and week-kneed democrats to weaken her character, morality and honor.

[Myrina]

21. ^^ This. Best post, ever. ^^

Thank you.

[JaneyVee]

25. Nailed it.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

24. And if you have been accused unjustly of a crime

this becomes equally important, to not have your rights violated by an improper search, or other abuses of justice.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Posturing for Paranoids has become an effective tool for politicians.

[City Lights]

4. Great points!

Thank you!

[diabeticman]

5. That is an important angle as well I mention this a few days ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022718055

[avebury]

6. Agree 1000% nt

[suffragette]

7. Well said!

[Baitball Blogger]

8. I wouldn't whisk him off to Gitmo, but in these cases the issue of public safety, health & welfare

usually prevail. After all, the basic premise of our Constitution is that we have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We lose our life in a bombing, and all else becomes irrelevant.

[scarletwoman]

9. Not sure what you're saying - if he's tried in open court by our Constitutional judicial system,

we might get blown up by a bomb?

[Baitball Blogger]

10. The most that is at issue today is the 48 hour delay on the Miranda rule.

That's based on the public safety exemption. That's where my remarks are directed.

I don't think this kid will respond well in Gitmo. If what they want is answers, they will succeed by introducing a "Good cop" approach with this one. If it had been the other brother, I might have a different opinion.

Since he is charged with a terrorist act I don't think this will go through the ordinary criminal justice system, however.

I would love to see this go through our judicial system with cameras rolling, but I think the concern that there is an overseas connection with terrorists will take all that away from us. National Security will prevail.

[Myrina]

22. It's been +48 hours since he was caught, nothing's blown up.

I'd say the 'imminent danger' threat is pretty much over, whether the theoretical 'Homeland Security Interrogation Clock' has started ticking or not.

Bring on Miranda.

[Baitball Blogger]

23. It will be interesting to hear what the father has to say when he gets here.

He's the unknown in all this.

[Progressive dog]

12. K&R

Yes and Mirandize the suspect before questioning.

[JDPriestly]

13. Thank you. The other part of the right to remain silent upon which the

Miranda warning is based is the "public" trial.


U.S. Constitution
Sixth Amendment
. . . .

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
. . . .

Amendment V
. . . .

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment

This case did not arise "in the land or naval forces or in the militia or when in actual service in timer of war or public danger."

These terrorists are common criminals and should be treated as such. They are not part of our military service. They were not in our military service, and they do not belong in a military court.

The reason we have military courts is that people serving the country in our military have a more demanding duty to our country than other citizens. Their rules are different. They are subject to our ordinary laws plus the military code. That's why we have military courts -- to enforce that special code.

These young men were not in our military. They do not belong in military codes. They have the rights, limited as they are, of ordinary people accused of crimes.

The gangs in Los Angeles are more like armies than these brothers and their pals. But even they get tried in normal courts. Even though they can silence witnesses in some cases through social pressure and fear of reprisal. Nevertheless, they are tried in our courts.

[bvar22]

14. I strongly agree with you on this issue that is fundamental to our democracy,

but will go one step further.
It is not just our "Right".
It is our RESPONSIBILITY.

It is our responsibility as citizens to oversee our government.

It is our responsibility as citizens to attend the public trials.

It is our responsibility as citizens to hear the government's case.

It is our responsibility as citizens to hear the testimony.

It is our responsibility as citizens to view the evidence.

It is our responsibility as citizens to decide whether our government has acted in a fair and responsible manner, and that the rights of everyone involved have been protected.

It is our responsibility as citizens to raise hell when the government falls short,
and it is our responsibility as citizens to to see that the problems are corrected.

Our government is SHOULD be accountable to The people.
When these proceeding are held in secret,
our government is preventing its citizens from doing their job of keep our democracy secure.


In 1993, Bill Clinton was able to capture, prosecute, and imprison ALL the criminals involved in the first WTC Bombing without the need for secret tribunals or "Enemy Combatant" loop holes. Our Constitution WORKED exactly like it was supposed to work.
The performance of our open democracy in 1993 was a great example of our DEMOCRACY
at work for the entire WORLD to see.

The changes that have occurred since 9-11 have been a disgraceful embarrassment,
and an admission that "We don't really believe in all that shit."

[timdog44]

17. Absolutely.

Americans forget that our right and freedoms are tied to responsibility. Which is all too lacking in America these days.

[G_j]

15. yes, it is

and of course they never called for Mcveigh to be deemed an enemy combatant.

[amuse bouche]

16. Why should this guy be treated any different

than the Aurora shooter? I'm confused as to how that would even be possible

[timdog44]

18. I think it is because

the right wing nut cases don't have an unprejudiced bone in their body. Witness the "Honorable" Sen. Lindsey Graham.

[vlyons]

19. The RW hate our gov. and have no confidence that our justice system can actually render justice

Yes, there are plenty of problems with our justice system, but I am confident that this highly reported-on case can be handled in a cfriminal federal court. The RW that wants to whisk him off to Gitmo just want to torture him into spilling the beans about Muslim terrorists. I am superbly confident that the FBI interrogators will work with his court-appointed defense lawyers to get him to co-operate with questioning. You and I have a right to see him brought before the bar of justice to face the charges that will surely be brought against him.

[Hekate]

20. ^^^^THIS^^^^ Something that completely escapes the supporters of Bush admin policies

[forestpath]

26. K&R

[AnnieBW]

27. Conservatives Are So Hung Up on Following the Constitution

Except when they're not. This kid may have rejected American values, but he's still an American citizen and on American soil. We have to show that Americans follow the rule of law, no matter how heinious the crime. Otherwise, we're no better than Russia or any other country that disrespects human rights.

[Diclotican]

28. scarletwoman

scarletwoman

In 2011 we had a madman who killed almost 80 persons - most of them at a youth camp on a island - where it was just one way to get away from it. He also bombed some of the government offices - But the bomb was not as affective as he hoped for - mostly because of some underground constructions right where he blow up the van - and most of the effect was going down in the ground, rather than as hoped into the buildings... Even though it was devastating enough...

He was put on trial - not a secret trial where secret laws was used, but rather in a open court using the laws of the land, to show what happened, why he did as he did - and also to give him our maximum prison time for the crimes he have been doing - all in open court, using all the methods of the laws, not put putting him on any Guantanamo style prison - or on a military tribunal - or otherwise used shady methods to get him out of sight.

The same methods - of a public justice system, using the laws of the land - can and should be used in the US too.. Show the world, that the US can and will adhere to the legal laws the US have had at one time or another - and who once was a place where the rest of the world was looking up to....

The victims of this horrible bombing - in Boston deserve a right to have a trial upon, and accessible to everyone - and also to get to know why it all happened - to put him in a Guantanamo bay form of prison system - or a military tribunal is just wrong - the victims deserve it - and even he deserve it...

I am not saying we in Norway in any form or reason is the perfect solution to what the US should do - but in Norway it was a trial most of us for some reason was looking forward to - both the victims - the ones who was in the family with the ones who was killed - and most of the Norwegians itself was looking forward to the trial - even as painfully it would be.. And he was given a prison time who, was acceptable for most of us I think... I also believe most of us, trusted the justice system enough to let them make the call for what time he deserved for his act of violence.. he got maximum prison time (21 year) plus also time in "protective custody" for as long as it is seen as needed for him to be keep under lock and key... In theory he could be free after 21 year plus some year in "protective custody", but I doubt any minister of justice will ever dear to let him out - it is to hot a potato to decide even after more than 20 year I suspect..

Diclotican

[scarletwoman]

30. Thank you for your wonderful post! Yes, I remember well how Norway handled that horrific event.

Your country was a shining example of how to hold on to your soul and your honor in the face of great injury. You showed the world what it means to not cower and give in to fear and hate.

I understand how important it was for Norway to show that the rule of law is the truest source of strength when faced with evil acts. That is what I most wish for my own country.

Thank you again for your post! Your perspective is a valuable contribution as always!

Best wishes,
sw

[Diclotican]

33. scarletwoman

scarletwoman

Thank you - and yes, Norway at a whole, was able to show that one can follow the rule of law - and get a mass murderer into a prison for the rest of their life - and not cover to fear and hate in the process.. Even though Norway in some way is changed today than it was before 2011 - it is still a place where the rule of law is aplaying on a regular basis - and where most people have trust in the justice system..

It was very important for Norway - and for Norwegians to show both for us self - and for the rest of the world, that even after such a horrible event - we would follow the law as best as our system was able to do it - and get the man guilty of that crime out of the way - in a prison cell for the rest of his life.. And we managed to do it too I guess.. And for the most part, most Norwegians seen to have trust in our system for the most part.. And as the court for the most part was open, most of the proceedings was in fact shown on national TV, so everyone could get a idea about how it worked from the outside.. The court did its job - nothing more - nothing less..

I hope USA can go back to what it once was - a country where fear mongering and hate is something that is not there, specially not in the justice system.. You are not given anyone a fear trial , if you hate, and is afraid of the one who are in custody - but then again, many americans seen to not be trusting their own system anymore, something that is bad for the ones who end in a court...

Thank you - kind words, I'm just writing it from my point of view - it might be wrong - and it just my personal view about it all - but I do hope that I can at least give you all some insight in how I think about it all

Diclotican

[dflprincess]

29. Thank you! nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

31. He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he viol

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomaspain105874.html#hvdRG7hREywLWiSy.99

“Thomas More: ...And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned around on you--where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast--man's laws, not God's--and if you cut them down...d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.”
― Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons

Nice post scarletwoman

[Cleita]

32. To tell the truth, the boy was an American citizen. If they take his rights

away from him, we all might as well assume we have no rights either.

[Blue_In_AK]

34. I love this thread.

Thank you, Scarlet.

[scarletwoman]

37. Thank YOU, Blue!

My OP came about simply because of a thought I had while listening to the news coverage and reading DU. I just thought, "Wait a minute! If they haul him off to a military tribunal, WE won't have any access to the trial." I want to know everything that happens in the court, I want to see our justice system at work on this case. I want to know what the witnesses say, I want to hear the victims' statements. I want ALL of it accessible.

And that's precisely what would have been taken away from us, if Graham, McCain, and company had gotten their way. It's not just about taking away Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's rights to a fair and open trial - that's how those hysterical, vindictive assholes roll. But the fact that they also don't seem to give a shit about OUR rights to see and hear the trial is what really pissed me off.

It's just another example of how We the People mean nothing to them. Truth and Justice mean nothing to them. The Constitution means nothing to them. Democracy means nothing to them.

/end rant

sw

[Brimley]

35. Precisely!

As the late, great Isaac Asimov said, "He is deprived at your peril, for you may be next."

[Solly Mack]

36. K/R