Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Nine

(1,741 posts)
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 07:35 AM Apr 2013

Dylan Klebold and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

I'll be honest. Even if the bombing had never happened, Tamerlan Tsarnaev doesn't seem like the kind of guy I would had liked. His appearance alone puts me off. He looks like someone who wears too much cologne if you know what I mean. Throw in the domestic abuse charge and I really get the picture of a swaggering... well, douchebag. Dzhokhar on the other hand seems like someone I might have regarded as a sweet kid. He looks almost angelic in the photos I've seen, with those big brown eyes, moppish hair, and baby face (I realize some photos circulating are from high school). The description of his laid-back personality also appeals to me. Even knowing what he did, I can't help feeling a twinge of pity for him. However, in the end both brothers are adults who are equally responsible for their evil actions. It may be true that Tamerlan was the leader, the mastermind, the dominant personality. But Dzhokhar wasn't being forced at gunpoint.

Comparisons have been made to the Colombine killers Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. It seems to be commonly accepted now that Harris was the psychopath who engineered the whole massacre and Klebold was just some confused kid who went along for the ride. Yet Dylan killed multiple victims by himself. He went along with a plan to massacre innocent people, most of them kids too. I've always thought it unfair that Eric Harris' parents get to have their some remembered as a pure psychopath while Dylan Klebold's parents probably receive a bit more sympathy.

It doesn't matter how sweet and likable a person you are; when you do monstrous things, you've made yourself into a monster. It doesn't matter that it wasn't your idea or that a stronger personality talked you into it. People have free will and are supposed to resist others who would lead them toward evil. Dzhokar has no moral high ground above Tamerlan. His actions were equally evil. And if we feel any pity toward Dzhokar, then I don't think Tamerlan is less deserving of that if we analyze things rationally. One could argue that Dzhokar was the stronger one in a sense. He was better assimilated, with lots of American friends, unlike his brother. He was a naturalized citizen. He might have been able to pull his brother back from the brink of madness instead joining him there. No matter how much more likable Dzhokar seems than Tamerlan, I reject the idea that he was just a pawn in all this. He made his own choices.

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Dylan Klebold and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (Original Post) Nine Apr 2013 OP
I am unaware of the facial characteristics of someone who wears too much cologne. dems_rightnow Apr 2013 #1
probably has more to do with the gold chains and the track suit he was pictured wearing... Cooley Hurd Apr 2013 #4
ROFL alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #6
You need to misread it. Because that is NOT what the OP'er said. KittyWampus Apr 2013 #14
Care to explain what's so jaw-dropping about that? (nt) Nine Apr 2013 #21
Nitpicking caseymoz Apr 2013 #12
OP'er didn't correlate FACIAL characteristics with wearing too much cologne. You misread. KittyWampus Apr 2013 #13
Okay okay... jberryhill Apr 2013 #20
Lets give him a fair trial in open court anyway, GoneFishin Apr 2013 #2
I don't remember saying he shouldn't get a trial. (nt) Nine Apr 2013 #5
I haven't read anything that convinces me these men were not cold blooded killers. MichiganVote Apr 2013 #3
Agreed...this "his brother influenced him" nonsense is taking on a life of its own alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #7
Considering he was the captain of his wrestling team & people are STILL willing to testify on his KittyWampus Apr 2013 #15
I've read much of the testimony alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #17
Ditto for Klebold. Anyone who could watch the video's MichiganVote Apr 2013 #22
Not to down play the part Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #8
A reasonable point to make marions ghost Apr 2013 #9
I can accept it as a reason. bluedigger Apr 2013 #10
Remember that tweet, "LOL those people are cooked", something like that? Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #11
Look, if the Dzhokhar who was captain of his wrestling team is still able to be salvaged MAYBE KittyWampus Apr 2013 #16
Uh, no. One was on an Islamic Jihad. The other was not. Zax2me Apr 2013 #18
Feelings shouldn't matter when it comes to punishment. caseymoz Apr 2013 #19
Yup. MichiganVote Apr 2013 #23

dems_rightnow

(1,956 posts)
1. I am unaware of the facial characteristics of someone who wears too much cologne.
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 07:48 AM
Apr 2013

Please expound on this.

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
4. probably has more to do with the gold chains and the track suit he was pictured wearing...
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:35 AM
Apr 2013

...than with facial characteristics.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
6. ROFL
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:39 AM
Apr 2013

Oh, I think I know what the OP means. It's also why you're not likely to get a detailed explanation.

Thanks for picking out the line that made me

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
12. Nitpicking
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:33 AM
Apr 2013

When it's a clear cut case of a guy killing four people; maiming, wounding, and injuring 170 others; throwing bombs in public and firing 200 rounds at the police, then all's fair, especially when a trial is moot.

I think the better than the OP's metaphor is the term "douche bag."
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
20. Okay okay...
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 10:22 AM
Apr 2013

The guy is responsible for several deaths, hundreds of injuries, domestic violence and a day of terror in Boston, but it is too early at this time to conclude whether he wore too much cologne. We'll have to await the lab results before going there.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
7. Agreed...this "his brother influenced him" nonsense is taking on a life of its own
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:42 AM
Apr 2013

Probably for the reasons of identification enumerated in the OP (BTW, I'm still unconvinced that Dylan Klebold wasn't a self-motivated murdering asshole): he seems sweet. I don't know that he does. So he snowed a bunch of high school kids and liked to take hits from the bong. So what? I don't get it.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
15. Considering he was the captain of his wrestling team & people are STILL willing to testify on his
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:39 AM
Apr 2013

behalf. Apparently you've missed the commentary from the many friends who knew him.

I think some people need to have neat and tidy groups of people: good/bad

With no possibility of one merging or morphing into the other.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
17. I've read much of the testimony
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:46 AM
Apr 2013

I also think some people need neat categories of good and bad, but I'm certainly not one of them.

 

MichiganVote

(21,086 posts)
22. Ditto for Klebold. Anyone who could watch the video's
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 03:55 PM
Apr 2013

and believe that both of them weren't just out and out killers is delusional. I mean, think about it. You have your freedom to go and do pretty much whatever you want-have family, have cars, good schools and none of that is enough in life? Gotta shoot / bomb people at point blank range-screw em'. These are not killers with a shred of conscience. They have none.

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
8. Not to down play the part
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:46 AM
Apr 2013

played by the younger brother in these horrific crimes, however, we should take note that there were no actual innocent deaths we can attribute to the younger brother after the older brother was killed.

If fact, we know Dzhoukar even (albeit accidentally) took out Tamberlan for us, although probably while he was being subdued.

Of course, after his brother's death Dzoukar did shoot at police, unsuccessfully.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
9. A reasonable point to make
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:53 AM
Apr 2013

except I argue that nineteen is not an adult. It's a transitional stage.

Both young men are sociopaths. You cannot take part in something like this if you aren't seriously messed up, capable of feeling nothing for the pain of others. No matter the influence of another who appears to be more in charge.

Look at the self-satisfied face of Dzho immediately after the bombing. This is the face of a sociopath. He is smiling and pleased with himself.

Younger bro was every bit as messed up. He just had a better cover.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
10. I can accept it as a reason.
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:00 AM
Apr 2013

But it is no excuse, just as you say. We have free will, know the difference between right and wrong, and should expect to face consequences for our actions. No sympathy from me.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
11. Remember that tweet, "LOL those people are cooked", something like that?
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:06 AM
Apr 2013

Doesn't sound like someone who was all sweet.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
16. Look, if the Dzhokhar who was captain of his wrestling team is still able to be salvaged MAYBE
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:44 AM
Apr 2013

he can feel remorse and spend the rest of his life in prison finding something to give back to society.

I believe in redemption and rehabilitation.

Dxhokhar may very well be able to be reached. Maybe by his coach.

This young man has a chance to realize what he did was wrong, he hurt innocent people and he now has a life behind bars left for doing something worthwhile.

caseymoz

(5,763 posts)
19. Feelings shouldn't matter when it comes to punishment.
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 09:49 AM
Apr 2013

Whatever mental path he took to get there doesn't matter. It's irrelevant to his guilt, it's irrelevant to the punishment for the guilt. The good kid he was is history.

If this were a fiction where nobody real gets hurt, or a nonfiction book written after the case is settled, then sympathy might be appropriate. You get to know people in such works the way you never get to know them in real life. A certain detachment from the damage and trauma is appropriate, either because they're not real or because they're in the dead past. (Though even there you have to remember also it's a writer's interpretation of him.)

But in The World, the damage he did is real and can't be reversed, nullified, or rewritten. Consideration of his exact thought processes have nothing to do with his case now. They are only good if they help us spot the next creep who might do this and somehow stop him.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Dylan Klebold and Dzhokha...