What about "shelter in place" do people not understand?

[longship]

I am kind of pissed off by the many posts here from people who apparently do not understand the facts, let alone the dynamics, of this week's events. So I am recapitulating a response to a clueless post here as an OP.

The media called it a "lockdown" but that's what the media does; it conflates. It was, and always was, "shelter in place".

"Shelter in place" was voluntary. But Bostonians, who apparently have a few more brain cells than some here, realized that going out on the street in the middle of a huge crime investigation would have been kind of bad form.

So, Bostonians willingly stayed in their houses so as to not impede the already stressed out law enforcement forces who were, after all, looking for very bad dudes who blew up a whole lot of people.

They even helped!!! What a surprise!?

What would you have done? Have a street party in defiance?

[Logical]

1. You know many people lost hourly wages that day? Many. Business shut down because of the "request"..

And it did nothing. The guy was caught AFTER the request was lifted.

[elleng]

3. And the authorities KNEW that would, happen, of course.

[Logical]

4. Knew what would happen? Lets say it went on 4 days? Cancel games 4 days? Lock down 4 days? You....

dont seem to understand that Friday did nothing. They ended it because of it doing nothing. n-t

[Tx4obama]

7. If there hadn't been a lock down the boat owner might not have even looked in his boat.

And believe it or not the world will not end if 'games' are canceled.

I live in a house with someone that is addicted to 'games' - football, baseball, basketball, soccer, golf, etc. - it is ridiculous.

A week without sports might be a good thing

[elleng]

12. 'Friday did nothing?' I sure don't 'understand' that.

How many streets, alleys and buildings were searched on Friday, found clear, keeping the kid on the run?

[gateley]

23. It didn't go on for 4 days, so we don't know, do we?

[longship]

9. Post hoc reasoning? Most illogical.

Actually, they may very have lifted the ban because they finished their scan of the twenty square blocks that they had demarcated.

#2 was found in a boat at a residence just outside. Thank goodness that the good people of Boston were more than willing to trust in law enforcement. Were that not so, people would not have stayed home.

They did so because they were not willing to trade off rights to walk the street for causing trouble for the already stressed out law enforcement agencies.

After all, they caught both of the perps, the second one alive.

What about this do you not understand?

[Logical]

15. Why end the lock down then when he was still at large? n-t

[Common Sense Party]

17. What lockdown?

[Logical]

19. The safe harbor. They ended it Friday evening. Why end it if suspect was still at large? n-t

[Common Sense Party]

21. They had to end it eventually.

What if he had somehow slipped out of Boston, out of Mass, and was headed for Florida? What if he was on the run for the next two months? You think the authorities would keep the shelter-in-home request going indefinitely?

[longship]

22. Sheesh!

First, it was not a lockdown. It was, and always will be, a shelter in place.

Let me repeat that so I am not misunderstood. It was a shelter in place.

I do not give a tinker's curse what the news media called it. They conflate.

Again, I ask you. What you would have done when law enforcement asked you to stay home?

Well, there's always a block party...

Or maybe you'd comply in order to not make national news as the douchebag who threw the whole investigation off due to their callous disregard for a reasonable, and voluntary, request.

[Cha]

37. Yes, it was a REQUEST from the Gov. The citizens could have done anything

they wanted.. but, as you so astutely poinited out, longship, the smart people in Boston chose to abide because they wanted to do their part and keeping safe was an extra added perk.

It really went relatively well for them. RIP Sean Collier and the Victims of the bombing on April, 15, 2013.

[longship]

46. Can you imagine the mayhem if Bostonians had not abided?

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Sheesh!

Where do people get off with claims that this was, in any way, either a mandatory let alone an enforced "lockdown".

I will pose the question one more time, albeit more forcefully. What the fuck would you do, hold a block party?

I, like sensible Bostonians, and putatively unlike others spewing shit here, would abide by law enforcement pleas to shelter in place.

In hindsight, that resulted in getting both of them, one alive.

People! Stop this rubbish, please.

Thanks for your post.

[Cha]

65. I think it was a very smart move by the Gov. n/m

[Life Long Dem]

25. He was caught one block beyond the perimeter set.

Give the cops a break.

[Logical]

26. Cops did a great job. Just do not shot down the city for one suspect next time. n-t

[Life Long Dem]

27. Do you think the city shouldn't shut down during a big snow storm?

Or is a snowstorm more dangerous than a terrorist bomber in your neighborhood?

[Logical]

28. Yes, because roads are not passable. Shut down watertown, fine. But Boston? Why?

[Life Long Dem]

29. They shut down Boston?

I thought it was the Watertown neighborhood they searched.

[Logical]

30. Google "Boston Ghost Town" and see the pictures. Amazing. n-t

[smirkymonkey]

70. Boston was shut down too.

fyi.

[brooklynite]

79. Maybe because Boston was 1/2 mile away?

And the police couldn't be absolutely sure they had him cornered (which they didn't)?

[gcomeau]

33. It Did Nothing?

Remind me, while the heavily armed bomber with apparently some spare explosive devices was fleeing through the streets being hunted by several thousand armed and jumpy law enforcement officuals how many innocent civilians got killed?

Get a sense of perspective. Lost wages<<<<< lives.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

36. Newsflash: We are dealing with a place that is used to being snowed in.

A day or even a few off is not the end of the world.

[Hekate]

60. And today they are alive and unmaimed to bitch about it

You can stick around during a mandatory evacuation for wildfire in California, but don't expect the first responders to come barging in to save your ass when your roof goes up in flames. They will be busy doing their real jobs.

[brooklynite]

78. ...except that they're not.

Only people who seem to be complaining are sitting comfortable in front of their computers.

[Hekate]

87. You've got that right

[treestar]

88. They do on snow days

And people seem to recover.

[elleng]

2. THANKS, longship.

And there's this:
https://www.facebook.com/ruth.mccroddenlamirande?ref=ts&fref=ts#!/photo.php?fbid=635681586461295&set=a.485036291525826.124182.484754611553994&type=1&theater

[marybourg]

5. A certain segment of the left thrives on indignation. It's their meat

and drink. It's what the right means when they use the phrase "knee jerk". That segment frequents this forum in about the same percentage as they exist in the whole spectrum of the left. They will find something to be indignant about ( or pretend to be ) in every human action and interaction. It's a means of stirring the pot with the hope of eventual revolution. Nothing much to be done about it. Some outgrow it.

[zeeland]

52. This is an insulting, pompous

statement to make of a "certain segment" of the political left. I'm thankful
for the people that have the guts and courage to question, complain make
known the issue they have with a given subject or situation. Attempting to
make people feel ashamed or immature for being the one to question or
express their indignation given what we all put up with on a daily basis,
and most often most graciously is annoying at best.

Revolution? I can't believe that was a serious conclusion you came to
to explain people's grievances.

[Hekate]

62. And yet so true

[postulater]

6. When I heard 'shelter in place'

I had no idea what it meant.

Is 'shelter' being used as a verb? or a noun?

Is 'place' being used as a noun? or a verb?

Does it mean 'there is a shelter in a place'? or 'shelter something in some place'?

I had no idea.

Had they said something like 'stay inside' would have gotten it right away.

It just didn't make any sense to me.

OTOH if I lived anywhere near, I would have stayed at home that day.

[Cha]

38. As they say on the internet.. "google is your friend" n-m

[SheilaT]

8. Did employers pay the wages of those who could not go to work?

Did anyone even think about those with no good job protections?

As one who has always worked shift work, I'm crazed by those who don't understand it. Okay, so you work a normal day job, and if something like this ("shelter in place" and don't even ask me what I actually think of this because I'll tell you_), do you have any idea what it's like to have a job where if you don't work you don't get paid? Do you? Really?


fixed a typo

[longship]

14. Irrelevant. What would have you done?

Not that anybody not in that situation could answer appropriately. Certainly, they could not answer in context of those events.

So, consider this. Would you have gone to work anyway?

I wouldn't have. Maybe that's the difference between people. I thank goodness that Bostonians put general welfare above personal gain.

[SheilaT]

75. Hardly irrelevant to the people who live so close to the edge

that to lose one day's pay is significant.

Not everyone has a nice office job with paid leave and benefits. Really. Not everyone. Sort of like not everyone works a day job. Some significant percentage of people so shift work.

I work at a hospital. Should I have stayed home?

[Common Sense Party]

18. Probably the same thing they do when there's a blizzard that shuts the city down.

You would prefer people being out on the streets to be targets? Potential hostages? Collateral damage?

[Control-Z]

24. The way I understand it,

If that were your circumstance, that day, in that neighborhood, it would have been up to you to decide whether or not to leave and go about your business. Your choice. Staying home was voluntary.

[Cha]

39. Exactly right.. they could have gotten their butts to work so it's

a moot point.

[PoliticAverse]

10. "Was Boston Actually on Lockdown?"

http://nation.time.com/2013/04/19/was-boston-actually-on-lockdown/

[Tx4obama]

11. I heard on the news that folks in Boston are used to 'sheltering in place' because of winter...

... winter snow days.

[Cha]

42. They had a big one this winter!

In Boston, over two feet of snow had fallen by Saturday morning and the National Weather Service anticipated up to three feet of snow could fall by the end of the storm. Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick enacted the first statewide driving ban since the 1978 blizzard, which left 27 inches of snow and killed dozens. The archdiocese told parishioners that according to church law the responsibility to attend mass "does not apply where there is grave difficulty in fulfilling obligation."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/blizzard-2013-fierce-storm-drops-feet-snow-northeast/story?id=18443349

We remember sharing this experience with our Mass friends, no doubt.

[hifiguy]

50. Indeed. When we get blasted with big blizzards here

in Minnesota, the mayors of Minneapolis and St. Paul often publicly request that businesses close and people stay home. The good thing is that there's usually enough warning before a blizzard to make sure you get to the grocery and liquor stores before it hits.

[Tx4obama]

53. A family with young kids ran out of milk in Watertown, see photo on link below

Here: http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10022725358

[hifiguy]

63. If you told me they ran out of

FOOD, I might care. This, not so much. A day's worth of inconvenience is more than worth one family's moderate inconvenience. Are you REAL? This was ONE DAY. We somehow managed to get by without stores for ONE DAY when Hurricane Gloria blew itself out over Connecticut and Massachusetts back in 1985.

Jebus wept.

[Tx4obama]

64. Hey, I think that it is a great photo!

Down here in Houston a few years ago I was without electricity for almost two weeks when the hurricane blew threw

So, I know how it is


PHOTO: Police Officer Delivers Milk to Watertown Family With Infant Son During #Boston Manhunt

[hifiguy]

71. That is cool.

[Justice]

13. Meant the suspect could not simply walk away in the crowd.

Makes perfect sense.

[bottomofthehill]

16. Winner

It limited the ability of slipping in with the commuter crowd and getting away

[Fumesucker]

20. We had shelter in place back in the fifties when I was in grade school

Except we called it "duck and cover" and we were getting ready to be nuked by H Bombs.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. London was hit by a far worse terrorist attack in 2005.

They didn't shut down the city.

[longship]

32. Let me see...

London, population 7.75 million, 660 square miles.

Boston, population 617,594, 48 square miles.

Gee, it really isn't the same, is it? Maybe finding a bomber in Boston is easier than in London.

In Boston one could ask people to shelter in place. In London, it's out of the question.

It's a matter of scale, my friend.

Normally, I love your posts, but I must respectfully disagree with this one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Not only did they not shut down the city...

they didn't shut down the boroughs where the attacks occurred. (for a more direct comparison.)

[Boudica the Lyoness]

55. You are correct.

I was there when the IRA was blowing things up, killing and maiming. When I watched the good people of Boston being terrorized by the bombings on Monday, I couldn't help but wonder if any of them had given money to the IRA.

[Cha]

44. And, I say "so what?" The Gov of Mass chose to REQUEST it

and it worked for them.

[longship]

49. That was the purpose of my OP.

Some would make it out to be some kind of military takeover. Even some DUers here have spinned similar.

It was always a request to shelter in place. The media insisted in calling it a lockdown which mischaracterized Bostonians' resolve to assist in what can only be described as an extremely hazardous situation.

What would you have done under such a situation? Have a block party in defiance to defend your rights? Or would you shelter in place like Bostonians did.

[Cha]

66. I know.. I was refering to the London one when I said "so what"..

where they didn't have any such requests. My bad, I should have been more clear.

[longship]

68. No probs, my friend. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. Not so much

the suspect was spotted and captured AFTER the lockdown was lifted.

[Zoeisright]

54. So the fuck what?

I don't understand what's wrong with people who don't get this. Are you childish, or contrary, or simply trying to be a jerk?

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. Don't get what?

Was it really necessary to shut down the whole city? Compared to London (not just 2005, but when the IRA were blowing up the Baltic Exchange, etc) it seems like a hysterical overreaction.

[BlueStreak]

34. They shut down the freaking transit system. That's a lockdown.

WTF is the point of this OP anyway?

It was what it was. What difference could the name possibly make?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. "What difference could the name possibly make?"

"Shelter in place" is a pain if it happens when you are in someone else's bed.

"Curfew" makes it tough to sneak home from someone else's bed.

"Martial Law" means you can be busted by the army sneaking home from someone else's bed.

HTH.

[BlueStreak]

73. Elements of all of those things were in place

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 12:48 PM - Edit history (1)

And all of those things typically have some flexibility, even in the most totalitarian states.

Again, what difference does any of this make?

They asked a million people to stay home. They shut down the transit system. In certain neighborhoods, they demanded evacuation or remain in your house while they conducted door-to-door searches. That's a lockdown, in my book. If you don't like that term, use a different term. It just doesn't matter.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

81. It was a dragnet....

Citizens are expected to cooperate with police who are engaged in a "hot pursuit". Doesn't matter if it was an armed bomber or an armed bank robber. I'm sure they were on bullhorns.

The main thing is to get the guy and then tell everyone it's over and to "have a nice day."

[BlueStreak]

82. The OP was offensive and argued only about the choice of terms

I am not criticizing the actions the police took.

My only criticism of the government in this case is in the attempt to go outside the Constitution with Gestapo tactics on interrogation -- refusing to give the suspect his Miranda rights. This is insidious, unnecessary, and the actions of a country edging ever closer to a police state. But it has nothing to do with the OP in this thread.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

83. Meanwhile, I always try to look for the humor.

[hifiguy]

48. The authorities had no way of knowing

that these idiot mooks would be too damned dumb to flee the city ASAP. You can take the T straight to Logan and be out of town in a flash. I did it when I lived in Cambridge. I am so far left that I border on anarchism, and I have no problem with this given the circumstances.

[BlueStreak]

74. I don't either. But the OP was beeching about a choice of words.

Making a distinction without a difference, and insulting others in the process.

[Niceguy1]

35. I would have

Gone to work.anyways. its not like the Boston pd would have stepped up to oay my rent lol

[Cha]

45. And, they wouldn't have stopped you, either.

[nakocal]

43. In the south the terrorists would probably still be free and unharmed

If this terrorist act had happened in a republican controlled state the governor would have advised people to go shopping, there would have been several murders of minorities by gun owning cowards claiming that they were being threatened by their victims skin color, several mosques would have been attacked, and finally several police officers hunting the suspects would have been shot by gun owning cowards who will claim that they thought the police officers were the terrorist because they were carrying guns.

[hifiguy]

47. Yep. When there are armed maniacs

wearing suicide bombvests running around, I would be more than happy to stay in my house and let the cops poke around for a minute to two to make sure no such maniac sneaked into my basement.

While I loathe cops as a general rule I have nothing but admiration for the professionalism of the Boston police in this episode. No grandstanding, no fearmongering, only a Joe Friday "just the facts" approach. Cops around the country should study the way the Boston police handled the last week.

I lived in Cambridge for three years while I was in law school and have a deep well of affection for Boston and its environs. As a sort of honorary Bostonian, I am proud of the way the city handled this awful week.

[longship]

51. Thanks, buddy.

You understand my OP. I am with you on both sides of the equation.

[hifiguy]

57. Thank you, too.

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 04:44 AM - Edit history (1)

It's easy enough to hide the dope. Police who are looking for an armed, and possibly suicide-bomb rigged guy aren't going to tear the cushions off the couch or throw the mattress off the bed or the couch looking for weed. Even skinny maniacs aren't able to hide between the cushions.

I hope Boston is partying its collective ass off this weekend. And if I know Boston, it is.

[Hekate]

56. The average IQ at DU has slipped of late

I am finally convinced of that.

[longship]

58. Oh, I wouldn't say that.

But it may very well be that people let emotional reactions dominate over logic. It's when that happens that people's thinking goes astray. Humans are not inherently rational creatures. Skepticism is something that takes discipline and education in scientific thinking. Few have that; even here.

Thanks, my friend.

[smirkymonkey]

76. Yep.

I will agree with you on that.

[awoke_in_2003]

61. I can't believe the responses...

these threads get. There is a segment here that have either zero reading comprehension or just want to stir non-existent shit. And no matter how many times people tell them this was voluntary they will not understand.

[longship]

67. Yup, DU, we have a problem.

They creep in through the crevasses, posting their home-spun conspiracies. It comes from a cultural milieu which has been crafted by decades of illogical, unskeptical thinking.

I try to fight it as best I can here. But I also try to get along with other DUers. Occasionally one has to throw caution to the wind and take a stand. This is one of those instances. I wonder if some people here actually paid attention to this week's events. My conclusion is, apparently not.

And it was so thoroughly and utterly documented, yet some still deny the reality in front of them.

Thanks.

[freshwest]

72. Thanks for the thread.

[BlueStreak]

84. Shutting down the public transit was not voluntary.

Take your condescending posts to some other board.

[awoke_in_2003]

85. been here a whole 9 months...

and you are now telling other people to post to other boards.

[BlueStreak]

86. Do you ever post anything constructive or are you just having a bad day?

[brooklynite]

77. If you lived across the street from where they caught him...

...would you insist on your constitutional rights to go out and wash your car while the Police were surrounding the house and negotiating to get him to surrender? If the answer is "no", then all we're arguing about is a matter of scale.

[tralala]

80. boston strong!