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Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:06 PM Apr 2013

To publicly eschew the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" establishes dangerous precedent.

We as reasonable and intelligent individuals should see the value of containing the issuance of one's guilt to a proper legal system.

The court of public opinion is a terrible cesspool where unfettered hatred and misconception breed hyperbole and fear. Often in ways that are completely incorrect against people who are presently guilty of nothing more than being suspects.

I understand the anger and sadness behind everyone's feelings of these attacks. And that is precisely why I think it is so important to try and keep our views of suspects measured and as indifferent as we can possibly stand.

We should not construct a false choice between respecting the victims rights and respecting the suspects rights. We have to be able to respect both.

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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To publicly eschew the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" establishes dangerous precedent. (Original Post) Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 OP
Who is doing that? nt Xipe Totec Apr 2013 #1
The OP is a bit confusing. Not sure what point you're trying to make. Buzz Clik Apr 2013 #2
I think cvoogt Apr 2013 #3
huh? are you actually saying that we shouldn't look at the facts and come to cali Apr 2013 #4
You are too far removed from any of this to have irrefutable evidence. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #5
No we're not. Are you actually suggesting that cali Apr 2013 #8
That’s for courts of law, frogmarch Apr 2013 #6
Okay, but judging from the evidence in this video, Zorra Apr 2013 #7
oh my. that's just a riot. cali Apr 2013 #9
Let's enjoy a rational exercise Trajan Apr 2013 #10
Those are really poor comparisons. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #12
Explain how a movement ties a rope and slings it over a tree limb Trajan Apr 2013 #13
Point out to me who specifically tied those ropes... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #15
Let's use Emmitt Till as an obvious example Trajan Apr 2013 #16
It's just different levels of proof alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #11
We do it all the time. Do you think Dzhokhar Tsaraev should be released since he's "innocent"? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #14
I'll buy carjacking and possession... Junkpet Apr 2013 #17
They stole his patrol car. I guess that's hard enough proof for me. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #18
...uhhh, really? Junkpet Apr 2013 #19

cvoogt

(949 posts)
3. I think
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:11 PM
Apr 2013

OP refers to some of the conjecture on DU and elsewhere about who the suspects might be (before the police had named the suspects). One teenager was publicized (wrongly) by the NY Post I believe. That's my take.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
4. huh? are you actually saying that we shouldn't look at the facts and come to
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:12 PM
Apr 2013

conclusions? Are you saying that doing so is invariably about "unfettered hatred and fear"?

I actually have some compassion for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev but yeah, I think he's guilty. And I base that on irrefutable evidence.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
5. You are too far removed from any of this to have irrefutable evidence.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:14 PM
Apr 2013

You have only what has been provided to you through the media.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
8. No we're not. Are you actually suggesting that
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:26 PM
Apr 2013

the only people who have solid evidence to anything are those who were present?

We have evidence in the form of video. We have evidence in the form of official statements. We have a shitload of evidence. And we are not in a courtroom.

your op is just plain silly.

frogmarch

(12,153 posts)
6. That’s for courts of law,
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:15 PM
Apr 2013

to ensure fair trials for the accused, but if you want to apply “innocent until proven guilty” to the world outside of courtrooms, I guess Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their cohorts are innocent too.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
7. Okay, but judging from the evidence in this video,
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:18 PM
Apr 2013

I'm pretty sure that this cat is the culprit who got into my freezer and ate the salmon I was planning on having for dinner.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
10. Let's enjoy a rational exercise
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:29 PM
Apr 2013

During the period after the Civil War, there were a number of citizen groups who formed for the purpose of spreading fear into the ranks of newly freed slaves .... The KKK would be such a group ....

The KKK would, on occasion, cause harm in the form of maimings, assaults, and even murder ....

Do you deny this ? .... I didn't think so ...

After such assaults and murders took place, the perpetrators were rarely arrested, and when they were arrested and brought to trial, they were tried by a jury of their peers. Those peers would often fail to convict their fellow whites, even though the facts would clearly indicate their culpability .... Many whites were acquitted of capital crimes against blacks.

Do you deny this ? .... I greatly doubt it ....

Now .... I am an individual, and NOT a court of law .... I have a set of values and ethics that value honesty and a healthy respect for the truth, whereever that truth leads us ... When I read and understand the facts of those cases, I develop my own opinion about them, and I base my beliefs upon those facts I believe are true. In most cases; where the facts show that such crimes did in fact occur, and that the perpetrators were in fact responsible (in my opinion), then I reach conclusions that are different than those reached by the courts.

I find that; even though the courts of the era found those whites innocent, I have reached a conclusion that was NOT based on whether a court of law found the defendant to be innocent or guilty, because I cannot rely on the verdicts of those court cases to be truthfully and honestly founded ... I instead believe that most of those perpetrators were, in fact, GUILTY of the charges for which they were charged.

Hence; I do no agree that every opinion an individual might have about the innocence or guilt of a suspect should ONLY be founded on whether a court has found a suspect to be innocent or guilty - I rely instead upon my own judgement, based upon the facts as I know them ...

It is NOT a 'dangerous precedent' to have an individual opinion about the innocence or guilt of someone charged with a crime ... If one can establish the facts of the case, then one can reach conclusions, as an individual, as to whether a defendant is innocent or guilty of the charges they face.

Moreover - I refuse to cede my own personal volition to some body of government that I know commits gross errors of justice ....

I stand apart and beyond those courts, and I have a right to my opinion ....

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
15. Point out to me who specifically tied those ropes...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:56 PM
Apr 2013

I assume you cannot. That's because you are making a terrible comparison.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
16. Let's use Emmitt Till as an obvious example
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:33 PM
Apr 2013

Till was not hanged or lynched - He was instead beaten, one eye was gouged out, and then he was shot through the head .... A 70-pound cotton gin fan was tied around his neck with barbed wire, and he was thrown into the Tallahatchie River in Mississippi.

The perpetrators, Roy Bryant and JW Milam, were tried and acquitted after an all white jury deliberated for one hour.

After the trial - The perpetrators glibly admitted their guilt, knowing they could not be tried again due to rules against double jeopardy.

The court found them innocent - They themselves declared their own guilt ....

How does that square with your 'only the court can decide guilt' theory ?

And; for you to doubt that such things actually happened reveals a distinct lack of knowledge of the actual history ... It is a well known fact that whites killed blacks and were acquitted at court by white juries on a regular basis, and yet you dismiss this ?

IF you wish, we could go dig into the annals to determine each and every case for which these things happened, but I will not bother with it .... This is the history as it is understood by the greater percentage of citizens, and your demanding of specific facts does not erase that history .... You want facts ? ... go look them up yourself ....

Movements do not have hands, and cannot tie ropes, or gouge eyes, or beat, or shoot, or lynch a human being ... Only other human beings can do those things .... Your assertion that a 'movement' committed those acts is ridiculous on it's face ...

I am done here .... Good luck ....

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
11. It's just different levels of proof
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:32 PM
Apr 2013

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law is, as you note, merely a legal standard. It refers to the burden or level of proof required before the state can act on your body.

Individuals, and the public in general, have different standards of proof - but anybody an individual believes to have committed a particular act has been proven guilty to the satisfaction of that individual. Similarly, anybody the public generally believes to have committed a particular act has been proven guilty to the satisfaction of most people who compose that public. Put another way, if you ask an individual or group why they believe somebody to be guilty, they will supply (usually good) reasons. The guilt of the accused has been proven sufficient to that forum or individual. Nobody (despite a lot of protestations) decides that X suspect is guilty just on say so. People listen to arguments, and become persuaded.

The supposed problem is that the standard of proof is only sufficient in a court of law. So, you ask individuals and the public to suspend their own judgments until that particular procedure takes place. There are certainly benefits to that, but you're really taking context specific forms of proof and mixing them up. The high standard in a court applies precisely because the state can act on the body of the accused. Whether I, as a private citizen, believe Mr. Tsarnaev is guilty of these acts, by contrast, has relatively little effect on Mr. Tsarnaev. The standards of proof in court are high because the consequences are severe. You're asking people to transpose those very high standards to situations where the consequences are minor, if they exist at all (discussing the case in a bar, for instance).

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
14. We do it all the time. Do you think Dzhokhar Tsaraev should be released since he's "innocent"?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:51 PM
Apr 2013

The courts do it as well. They make a reasonable assumption of a suspects guilt or innocence based upon what's "known" so far. If everyone were truly assumed to be "innocent" there'd be nobody in custody awaiting a trial, everyone would be set free while they awaited trial.

We actually DO know that Dzokhar Tsaraev IS guilty of some things: 1. carjacking, 2. killing an MIT officer, 3. possession of illegal firearms.

If you aren't persuaded that he was one of the Boston Marathon suspects then fine you can assume we don't "know" that yet but based on what we do know, and the evidence we have so far (an eyewitness placing him at the scene, video and picture evidence, his use of the same type of explosive device at the police) I don't think its unreasonable to speculate and make some assumptions.

But based on what we do know he's guilty of, nobody's out of line here. On DU or in RL imho.





Junkpet

(40 posts)
17. I'll buy carjacking and possession...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:14 PM
Apr 2013

...but where's the proof that he killed an MIT officer? Maybe I missed something, but I haven't heard there was any video or eyewitnesses of the MIT officer's assassination. I think there is considerable circumstantial evidence, but nothing hard, at this point, is there?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
18. They stole his patrol car. I guess that's hard enough proof for me.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:19 PM
Apr 2013

Or do you think they left him sitting by the road and someone else came along and killed the MIT officer afterwards?



Junkpet

(40 posts)
19. ...uhhh, really?
Tue Apr 23, 2013, 01:26 AM
Apr 2013

I have neither heard nor read anything anywhere about them taking the patrol car. Please post a link, because I see nothing.

That said, they were in the area and had the means and possibly the motive, but I still don't know of any hard evidence that they killed the officer. Again, I'm not saying they didn't, I just think there's a level of caution one should take before throwing all your chips in. That said, would you like to play Hold'em sometime??

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