General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNew info on the older brother
-He had fallen out with family members and was described as a 'manipulator' who they knew was 'up to no good'
- His best friend had his throat slit in mysterious murder in 2011
- Had videos dedicated to terrorism and Jihad on his YouTube channel
- Watched sermons by radical Australian preacher Feiz Mohammad linked to extreme brand of Islam promoted by al-Qaeda
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311686/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Manipulated-younger-sibling-flipped-American-friend-Brendan-Mess-throat-slit-unsolved-murder.html#ixzz2R1kZqCE8
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bettyellen
(47,209 posts)superiority mixed with feelings of emptiness, manipulation, and always blaming others.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)in the opposite direction. That is a recipe for disaster, sometimes, as here, epic when carried into adulthood.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)a bit older and wiser. Yeah, I'm looking at you Aunt Peggy and cousin Margaret! LOL.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)could be an underlying genetic mental illness lurking in the psyche that comes to the surface? I know it happened to my neighbor's son who started having bi-polar episodes when he went to graduate school about that age. The other kid was too young but maybe was influenced by his brother.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)start taking care of your own shit. You'd never know anyone had BPD in HS or college because teenagers are often that emotionally volatile, selfish and latching on to changing ideas of who they are. When that shit continues into adulthood- the "no settling down" thing, it starts to be obvious who has issues.
BPD in it's extreme form includes sociopaths, but in most forms does feature the need to control and manipulate others. And never getting grounded in building the life you want, instead the easy flipping of identity- one year he's totally into money, boxing, a flashy lifestyle, then gets in with radicals, and becomes deeply into that. There's an empty restless core to those with bad BPD that makes them latch onto other people/ lifestyles. Also, very volatile black and white thinking, violent outbursts, and total externalization of blame.
I was just reading about this in the Arias murder trial, and it fits here too. But I'd imagine a lot of murderous people fall into this category.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)well versed in it. Thanks for the insight.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)in my immediate family, so I've done a lot of reading. (Also lost both parents to different diseases effecting the brain)
I was once one of those easy going people that sociopaths tried to control. Everyone else saw how weird and controlling they were except for me. It wasn't until they were engaging in some seriously ugly shit with others that I kind of woke up and saw what they really were all about. Because they are great when you agree with them. They destroyed my brothers relationships with each other and were working on getting them to hate me too, spreading all sorts of lies. All while my Mom was on her deathbed. Shameless attempt at dividing and conquering us, just so they could feel superior. Creating havoc is like a sport to them! Took me a few years to get them out of my life. Glad that chapter is long over.
I have a lot more sympathy for schizophrenics- in my family, they were the gentle souls, very sensitive and super creative minds, just wired all wrong. Tortured by hallucinations. Unlike the sociopaths, they could not hurt a fly. Only themselves.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)to prove to an extremist group that he had what it takes to be one them. That he had extremist views and that these kuffir were murdered on an anniversery of 9/11 is just a bit too coincidental.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)I looked up the date, and September 11, 2011 was a Sunday. Just speculating now, but... maybe Brendan invited Erik and Raphael and Tamerlan over for a beer or two (and some weed - they all liked to smoke pot, it appears), and when the subject turned to the 10th anniversary of 9/11, things went horribly wrong.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)The murder(s) were never caught so it appears well planned. Note: Had a camera not caught the back pack being placed and a victim not been able to ID the bomber, the Marathon bombers would also not have been caught. No one but no one suspected them. This too was carefully planned.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)I've just never heard about anything like that, that's all.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Of course I am just speculating but throats cut on 9/11 sound like a ritual killing. The fact that the older brother visibilily seen changed after these murders and the fact that he knew one of them is just too wierd.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)men who were untied and thereby seemingly able to resist. One of them was training in mixed martial arts! So, what kind of person could disable all three with neck or throat stabs?
Some answers suggest themselves: 1) the killer had to have known the victims; could not be a "drug deal" or other situation that would suggest a guarded stance. The victims were at ease around the attacker. 2) Nevertheless, the attacker would have to have extremely fast and accurate thrusts - even knowing the attacker, the second and third victims would have some time to respond or escape, unless the attacker was very dexterous, fact, and accurate with jabs.
Like, say, a trained and accomplished boxer...
Any trained and accomplished boxers who knew the victims of this triple homicide?
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)and that it wasn't a random crime.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)They could deduce from the scene that the victims probably knew their attacker, but that would seem the limit.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Leone said the slayings may have been drug-related and investigation is ongoing. It is believed that the victims knew the assailant or assailants, and the attacks were not random.
It does look as if the assailants and the decedents did know each other, he said.
Read more: Three Cambridge natives mourned after brutal Waltham murder - Waltham, Massachusetts - Wicked Local Waltham http://www.wickedlocal.com/waltham/news/x985869796/Three-Cambridge-natives-mourned-after-brutal-Waltham-murder#ixzz2R28113eA
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alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)No forced entry. Little sign of struggle. No need to restrain victims 2 and 3 while victim 1 is being killed. Perhaps 4 drink glasses on a table, or four poker hands still splayed on a table, whatever. Body placement. Form of the injuries. Etc. I agree that it is very difficult to stab to death three grown men in an apartment unless they are fairly comfortable with your presence, or restrained. It doesn't sound like these guys were restrained in any way, so they knew their attacker, in all likelihood.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)was an opportunity for Tamerlane so show his stuff to a Jihadi group that he could be trusted to handle an attack?
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)This strikes me as a rage crime among people who know each other, not a planned murder. This was a highly risky, poorly thought out homicide. Quite frankly, I consider the whole idea of "initiation murders" to be largely urban legend, and a deep misunderstanding of how any group -- from gangs to terrorist cells --actually operate. But even if there were such a things as a "prove yourself" or "initiation" homicide, this would be a very poor candidate for that indeed, as the situation has more likelihood to tip out of control than to end well for the killer. It doesn't strike me as drug reprisal either, since neighborhood guys moving low to medium weights don't get murdered for pot, various overblown mythologies notwithstanding. There's not enough money in play. No, this was a rage crime, a snap and frenzy, committed by somebody of some modest physical capabilities.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)indicates attackers, plural.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)They wore easily identified articles of clothing. No disguises. No planned escape. No money to escape. They actually had a remarkable lack of planning.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)hadn't been for that Lord & Taylor camera and the victim who lived to ID them. Who would ever think that a CCTV would capture someone casually laying down a bag in the midst of a teeming crowd? And remember only one bomb being placed was caught on camera. These guys blended in. They left on foot like everybody else. They looked innocent because they weren't disguised.
Furthermore a security expert said that these two had lots of practice. He said setting off 2 bombs simultaneously is extremely hard. This was indeed well planned.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)So did the hoodie's hood hanging over the jacket. And I guess they didn't check for security cams ahead of time...that was bad planning. Walking together also helped ID them...not necessary since bombs were a block apart. And of course no contingency plan to get out of town in case they were ID'd is also poor planning.
Not difficult to set off two bombs 12 seconds apart with a remote trigger...thats about how long it would take to change frequencies and push a button. Possibly could be done with digital timers too. I haven't seen any evidence they practiced, although its very possible the elder brother got bomb-making instruction when he visited Dagestan earlier...or he simply followed instructions on internet.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)type of denotations normally fail. He also said that McVeigh went into the desert and practiced, in fact people heard the detonations but they dismissed them because it was out in the desert. As for the the cap and standing out. That is just brilliant because they didn't seem interested in hiding their appearance. They did miscalculate about the camera but as I statd before only one bomb placement was caught on camera.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)He could have stunned or knocked them out first and then slit their throats. The pot could have been sprinkled to make it look like it was a drug dealer hit.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Even easier for a boxer, seems to me: three quick jabs.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)yeah, your 'initiation' theory where the older brother kills his best friend to prove himself to al qaeda is muuuuuuch more believable.
and your 'evidence' -- a supposed street gang initiation in chicago where the victim is *shot*.
here:
Drug dealer who cut off his friend's head and refused to tell police where he hid it is jailed for 20 years
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095534/Drug-dealer-cut-friends-head-refused-tell-police-hid-jailed-20-years.html
Trio of vigilantes 'killed and dismembered drug dealer, 19, with a machete
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2264219/Trio-vigilantes-killed-dismembered-drug-dealer-19-machete-bid-rid-world-evil.html
Drug dealer slashed men with cut-throat razor in brutal attack by EDL gang
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2013/2/21/drug-dealer-slashed-men-with-cut-throat-razor-in-brutal-atta.html
SAMURAI HORROR AS DRUG DEALER'S THROAT SLASHED; Man, 24, bleeds to death in lane.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SAMURAI+HORROR+AS+DRUG+DEALER%27S+THROAT+SLASHED%3B+Man,+24,+bleeds+to...-a0191251002
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)who had his throat sliced on the anniversary of 9/11 is quite the coincidence. What is chilling is that his father lives is in the same region where in 1999, Chechen rebels beheaded 6 young Russian conscripts and they did it slowly, the soldiers were filmed begging for their lives as they heads were only partially connected. The Islamists in Chechen are depraved so if he got trained by any one of the, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possiblity of his killing his friend.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)so did 2500 other people, in a mass ceremony.
the elder went to russia in 2012. his friend was killed in 2011.
the older one went to russia (where his parents had recently moved and where other family members lived). this is supposedly a big red flag according to you. i went abroad and family members within 3 months came & stayed with me for 3 months. probably they were training to be terrorists too.
"What is chilling is that his father lives is in the same region where in 1999, Chechen rebels beheaded 6 young Russian conscripts" -- chilling? the father lives in the region, so the father must have involvement? that's idiotic and so is your theory.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)that he contacted authorities which is why the Tamerlane was interviewed by the FBI.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)fact.
i could spin another story: chechnyan dissidence has reportedly been fomented by the US to destabilize russia's southern periphery, which is oil-rich and crucial for various reasons -- caspian sea claims, pipelines, etc.
tamerlan got involved with western provocateurs who used him for their own purposes. that's why the fbi didn't pursue the uncle's lead.
just as much evidence for my speculation as yours.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)is a terrorist who slit his best friend's throat in an initiation.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)to be doing anything other than speculating. The facts that are undeniable is that these two brothers are ruthless, planned the bombings in advance and that the older brother had extremist leanings for several years.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)About halfway down the comment section, someone had pretty much the same thoughts you did:
"It is possible that this heinous crime was not drug related at all. Maybe they were targeted due to some road rage incident or perhaps because they were Jewish. Did this happen to them on 9/11 ? Daniel Pearl come to mind?"
http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/2011/09/14/did-you-know-eric-weissman-or-rapheal-teken/#axzz2R2NIfQpg
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)And consider this these murders happened two years ago and it was two years he went off to Russia. I'd loved to know whether the murders happened before or after he went to Russia.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)That bastard was ruthless. I suspect he had to prove he had the necessary ruthlessness and aptitude whatever group agreed to train him for an attack in the US. Consider this. Jihads have had numerous failed attempts because of the dolts they trusted to carry out the attacks. Each failed attack was a major set back. Going back to the drawing Jihads knew they had to be way more selective and what better way than to have a wannabe commit murder.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)But Christopher Swift, who teaches national security studies at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and has studied the war in Chechnya for nearly 15 years, said it is unlikely that the Tsarnaev brothers were formally trained by Chechen Islamist militants, whose terrorist activities have always been focused on Russia.
If there is any connection between these kids and the insurgency there, it will be the first time they have struck a target outside of Russia, Swift said in an interview.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/relatives-marathon-bombing-suspects-worried-that-older-brother-was-corrupting-sweet-younger-sibling/UCYHkiP9nfsjAtMjJPWJJL/story.html
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)That you were falling in with radicalized Islamists?
" i went abroad and family members within 3 months came & stayed with me for 3 months. probably they were training to be terrorists too."
Just wondering.
Because another government (I've read it was Russia) contacted the US about the older brother when he went to Russia, to warn the US. The FBI investigated, but from their report it doesn't seem like they dug very deep. And then the FBI went back to the other government and asked for more detailed info and never got a response.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)anything?
apparently not if they didn't bother to respond.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)that the Russians or whoever didn't respond. There is plenty of corruption and violence in their government and society, possibly more than here in the US.
It doesn't take much, does it, to start speculating?
As I wrote earlier, it doesn't look to me from their own report like the FBI dug very deep on the older brother. Somebody radicalized them both, and their uncle is now saying he believes it was somebody in the US (of Armenian descent), not Russian or Chechnya.
Now, suddenly, the FBI is digging deeper and finding people to question and hold.
I suspect there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye. But then that's probably true of any number of stories.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)way of it in a lot of these cases.
the uncle is now joining the boy's mother in saying they were set up.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)The only ID I can find for the location of the supposed beheading of 6 russians (I say supposed because the only references i find are on anti-islam sites) is either 'dagestan' (which is a province) or "the village of dagestan" which as far as I can tell doesn't exist.
IOW, no evidence that the father was in any way near this event or had anything to do with it or was influenced by it or anything else.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Having his Dad there simply provides cover for being in this region.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)perhaps more foundation than yours:
chechnyan dissidence has reportedly been fomented by the US to destabilize russia's southern periphery, which is oil-rich and geopolitically crucial for various reasons -- caspian sea claims, pipelines, etc.
tamerlan got involved with western internet provocateurs who used him for their own purposes. that's why the fbi didn't pursue the uncle's lead.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)according to the police.
snip
Leone said the slayings may have been drug-related and investigation is ongoing. It is believed that the victims knew the assailant or assailants, and the attacks were not random.
It does look as if the assailants and the decedents did know each other, he said.
Read more: Three Cambridge natives mourned after brutal Waltham murder - Waltham, Massachusetts - Wicked Local Waltham http://www.wickedlocal.com/waltham/news/x985869796/Three-Cambridge-natives-mourned-after-brutal-Waltham-murder#ixzz2R28113eA
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HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)known dealer (or had at least been caught before with large quantities of pot).
did the older kid kill them all as part of this supposed 'initiation'?
Waltham Police came to the Waltham apartment at about 2:25 p.m. on Sept. 12 to find the bodies of the three men inside. A neighbor said a woman, who first discovered the bodies, ran out of the home shortly before police arrived and said the bodies were covered in marijuana.
and now it's an ice pick stabbing, not a throat slitting.
Michelle McPhee, a reporter with Wicked Local media partner WCVB, reported that a law enforcement official told her the men were all stabbed to death with a knife or ice pick.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Somebody knowing the victims who was trained at jabbing is going to be able to put down three grown dudes pretty quickly; an icepick or equivalent is also the kind of thing that might be around the house, suggesting an unplanned act as opposed to some drug set up. They also found $5,000 in the house - I'm not sure about a drug-deal related killing where the killers leave money and drugs - that doesn't make much sense either. This looks like a rage killing by somebody who knew the victims well.
For my money, we know the older Tsarnaev was prone to fits of rage, knew the victims well enough for them to feel comfortable around them, and could accomplish the deed of throat striking three grown men in rapid succession. There's no doubt that this is baseless speculation, but the rage killing makes more sense to me than the drug deal scenario. There's at least a plausible case to be made for Tamerlan Tsarnaev here.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Reading about all three victims today - Brendan Mess, Erik Weissman and Raphael Teken - I learned that both Erik and Rafi were Jewish.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)"rage killing makes more sense to me than the drug deal scenario" = so in their rage they covered the bodies with marijuana....
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Sprinkle some marijuana on the victims, then leave an envelope with five grand sitting there?
Plenty of ways for marijuana to get all over the victims in a rage killing - indeed, it makes more sense that the place would be a mess in a rage killing.
In any case, we're all playing a little speculation game here, so can we do it in a friendly way?
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)not to get a lousy $5000 back or waste time searching for hidden money in their apartment.
it's to send a message to others who might try the same.
evidence of a rage killing would be multiple wounds, disfigurement, etc.
three people dead at a single location suggests multiple killers = not a rage killing.
i haven't been unfriendly.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)for a triple murder. I've known a lot of pot dealers in my time - you're into some serious weight before people start talking triple murder. I don't really buy that - these guys were at best low level dudes, neighborhood wholesalers at most - the one who had the dealing / possession bust sounded like a rank amateur (Oh, I knew you'd smell it, officer, here's a bag with separate baggies...).
Three people dead at a single location could suggest either. Stories vary on whether there were one or two suspects, but I don't think anyone knows. And there were multiple wounds on the victims - not just the throat stabbings; the scene was a bloody mess. And again, who COULD stab three guys successfully? Somebody quick and accurate with his hands, seems to me.
Sorry! I read your previous post as aggressively snarky. I'm too thin skinned, I guess!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)charge...
Raphael ...lived off of Moody Street in Waltham. He was also a known drug dealer so none of this is shocking...Dude, if you were Rafis friend, youd know he didnt work. Not for YEARS. So um what do you think he did for a living when he didnt leave the house all day, every day and every night. I was his friend, and I do know.
...It was weed, not meth or coke, weed. You are a fucking fool if you thgink a weed dealer deserved to die...would you want shit talked about you if you were murdered in cold blood over a dime bag?
http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/2011/09/14/did-you-know-eric-weissman-or-rapheal-teken/
The men killed were Brendan Mess, 25, of Waltham; Erik Weissman, 31, of Cambridge; and Raphael Teken, 37, of Cambridge...Authorities say the slayings were targeted, and they are seeking one or more suspects.
Residents of the quiet side street say that police have told them the men had been stabbed and that the killings were drug-related.
In 2010, Mess and another man were arrested on charges that they assaulted several people at a store, according to a Cambridge police log.
In 2008, Weissman was charged with marijuana possession and intent to distribute, according to a report.
Teken lived in Waltham, and two neighbors who asked to remain anonymous said they believed he was a drug dealer, saying he rarely left the house and had a steady stream of visitors.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/09/15/police_id_3_victims_in_waltham_killings/
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Two of them were drug dealers. Very low level drug dealers by the looks of things. If you stay at home all day and have a steady stream of visitors, you're just a notch above retail level for pot, and you're probably even then doing a good amount of retail sales - twenty sacks and even dimes (dime bags, as his friend notes!). We're not even at the level of neighborhood wholesale, which would be the minimum weight to see somebody get knocked for, and even then, a triple murder for the retail pot dealer? It doesn't happen. This guy was picking up maybe a half pound or a pound a week from the local wholesaler, bagging it, and selling it to friends and friends of friends. The other guy there was probably moving product for him. You can string together a living doing that, about the same as working a blue collar job, maybe 45, 50 a year profit if you hustle. He was, after all, still hanging out with 25 year olds in apartments at age 37: the guy wasn't moving weight or handling much money. Retail pot dealers don't get killed for drug burns - it's silly, and nobody takes on three bodies for even a few grand here and there. The very description of their drug activities militates against the drug reprisal argument.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)is soooooooo much more believable than a drug dealer murder....
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I wasn't the one who proposed initiation rite, and I agree that it doesn't make much sense. I posted that well before your response here. For the record: I'm the guy with the other (most plausible) argument on the thread.
As for how you stick all three, again, that would be exceedingly hard to do for an ordinary person, but perhaps not so hard to do for somebody trained in quick and accurate jabbing, like a boxer. You stick all three immediately to disable them, then finish them. Rage + skill. It's the combination that the other less plausible scenarios can't come up with.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)yet older's best friend's death is somehow involved with it.
I'm going with the loser theory.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)something i read somewhere on the web, which means it could be completely wrong.
Rex
(65,616 posts)With all the relatives and people that knew them saying they could never believe 'do it'. An Australian preacher? Now that I did not see coming.
RagAss
(13,832 posts)Look for that angle in the next few weeks. Anything goes when someone has a column to write.
B2G
(9,766 posts)OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)that he beat his girlfriend and she got an order of protection. That incident may likely have prevented him from becoming a citizen. It's beginning to sound personal to me
randome
(34,845 posts)I've always been told here that the government is snooping into every aspect of all 300 million American citizens and that this is evidence of a police state.
Apparently the rumors of a police state have been greatly exaggerated.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)but gave him the all clear and didn't keep tabs on him also brings into question how closely people are monitored. Sounds to me that rumors of Muslims being placed under extra scrutiny doesn't bear water. That said I think the reason why he wasn't monitored is that he wasn't Arab, he seemed too all American.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)rather than believing or repeating tabloid stuff.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)BainsBane
(53,003 posts)an unreliable source or don't care if the information isn't true?
rehabiti
(22 posts)im a muslim and im proud