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snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:54 PM Apr 2013

New info on the older brother

-He had fallen out with family members and was described as a 'manipulator' who they knew was 'up to no good'

- His best friend had his throat slit in mysterious murder in 2011

- Had videos dedicated to terrorism and Jihad on his YouTube channel

- Watched sermons by radical Australian preacher Feiz Mohammad linked to extreme brand of Islam promoted by al-Qaeda


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311686/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Manipulated-younger-sibling-flipped-American-friend-Brendan-Mess-throat-slit-unsolved-murder.html#ixzz2R1kZqCE8
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New info on the older brother (Original Post) snagglepuss Apr 2013 OP
borderline personality disorder- immaturity/ irresponsibility, fits of rage, delusions of bettyellen Apr 2013 #1
Bingo. nt hifiguy Apr 2013 #13
when you see people who don't grow out of that over dramatic, selfish, HS mentality, RUN! bettyellen Apr 2013 #15
As fast and as far as possible hifiguy Apr 2013 #47
I know I have, LOL. Gets easier to recognize them (and know the potential for damage) when you are bettyellen Apr 2013 #49
Isn't this about the age between twenty two and twenty six, that there Cleita Apr 2013 #36
well schizophrenia, and I think also it's a rough transitional time when you have to grow up and bettyellen Apr 2013 #44
Interesting. I never took any courses in psychology so I'm not Cleita Apr 2013 #48
no problem, unfortunately I have grown up with both schizophrenics and sociopaths bettyellen Apr 2013 #52
His best friend was murdered on September 11, 2011. reformist2 Apr 2013 #2
I missed that detail. I wonder if he killed them? Killed them as some kind initiation snagglepuss Apr 2013 #4
Maybe it was a heated argument over terrorism and Muslims? reformist2 Apr 2013 #5
One man cutting the throats of three others? I don't think so. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #6
OK, but is there a precedent for these 'initiation' killings you mentioned? reformist2 Apr 2013 #7
I have. Here's just one story snagglepuss Apr 2013 #9
that's a *gang* initiation. supposedly. yes, you're just speculating. with no evidence whatsoever. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #14
Never claimed to be doing otherwise. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #18
They were stabbed in the neck/throat...it is a good question on who could stab three grown men alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #38
The police in fact did determine that at least one of them knew the attacker(s) snagglepuss Apr 2013 #62
I don't know how the police could "determine" that alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #67
Point taken. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #68
Yes, you deduce this from the evidence alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #69
What is your opinion of my admittedly wild speculation that this snagglepuss Apr 2013 #71
Doesn't make much sense alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #75
but once you stab one, how do you stab the other two before they jump *you*? i'd say it HiPointDem Apr 2013 #79
Only the bomb construction appears well-planned. HooptieWagon Apr 2013 #21
No the planning was superb because they never would have been suspected if it snagglepuss Apr 2013 #63
The backwards white cap stuck out like a sore thumb. HooptieWagon Apr 2013 #65
According the bomb expert you're wrong. He said categorically that these snagglepuss Apr 2013 #66
That was my first thought, but then again he was a top notch boxer. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #31
The stories I've read didn't indicate "slit" throats, but victims stabbed in the throat alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #39
MY error. The throats were stabbed not slit. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #64
It's an important point, seems to me alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #70
he was found sprinkled with marijuana so more likely some kind of drug thing. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #8
Siince when do people cut throats over something like weed. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #10
lol. since any dealer ripped off his supplier. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #12
True it's pure speculation but the coincidence that Tamerlane had a friend snagglepuss Apr 2013 #17
yeah, it was supposedly 'chilling' that the young one got his citizenship on 9/11 too, except that HiPointDem Apr 2013 #19
No the big red flag is that an uncle in Russia was concerned enough about his extremist thinking snagglepuss Apr 2013 #20
yes, that's a red flag. but it doesn't mean that any of your other speculation has any basis in HiPointDem Apr 2013 #26
You would make a horrible investigator. Just saying. reformist2 Apr 2013 #23
lol. better than someone who says a gang shooting in chicago is evidence that a chechnyan HiPointDem Apr 2013 #24
I am brainstorming not investigating. Not for one instance have I claimed snagglepuss Apr 2013 #28
My comment was meant for HiPoint, not you. Speculation is good, imo! reformist2 Apr 2013 #30
Ooops. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #32
Now that that's cleared up, look at this gem of a comment I found! reformist2 Apr 2013 #37
Dollars to donuts the police are going to take another look at the case. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #40
I checked - He left for Russia a couple of months *after* the murders. reformist2 Apr 2013 #42
I wouldn't bet the farm but this stinks to high heaven. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #46
before. 2011, he went to russia 2012. omg! HiPointDem Apr 2013 #80
did another country contact the US government and warn them about you? magical thyme Apr 2013 #60
did the fbi find anything incriminating? apparently not. did the russians (or whoever) find HiPointDem Apr 2013 #77
not necessarily. there could be any number of reasons magical thyme Apr 2013 #82
yes; it could be the armenian was an american provocateur from the fbi. that seems to be the HiPointDem Apr 2013 #84
"the same region" = dagestan, which is 19,420.9 sq mi. He lives in the capital city Makhachkala. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #27
I'm not involving the father. My point is that this region is rift with Islamists. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #33
according to your theory with zero evidence. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #34
I'm not a prosecutor. I don't need evidence to speculate. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #35
"I don't need evidence" = sure, glad you acknowledge it. i'll repeat my theory which has as much HiPointDem Apr 2013 #41
Only one of those involved weed and that one was a random attack. This murder was not random snagglepuss Apr 2013 #22
lol. all three of the bodies were found together covered with marijuana, and one guy was a HiPointDem Apr 2013 #25
To be fair, an ice pick to the throat would actually be better evidence on Tamerlan alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #43
FWIW, at least two of the three victims were Jewish. reformist2 Apr 2013 #45
and....? you're suggesting that the elder brother killed them because they're jewish? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #51
Once again, you would make a horrible investigator. reformist2 Apr 2013 #54
considering the other contestants, i take that as a compliment. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #55
"There's no doubt that this is baseless speculation" = yes. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #50
Is that what drug dealers do? alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #53
i'd suggest the point of an upper-level supplier killing lower level dealers when they stiff him is HiPointDem Apr 2013 #56
It would have to be pretty drastic amounts of pot alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #57
well, surfing around the web it seems that two of them were drug dealers...and mess had an assault HiPointDem Apr 2013 #78
No doubt alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #83
because a terrorist initiation rite where one stabs his best friend and two others with an icepick HiPointDem Apr 2013 #85
Here's my thoughts on initiation rite posted upthread (under the title "Doesn't make much sense") alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #86
it's an interesting wrinkle that the younger was a pot smoker, and the older, very anti.... bettyellen Apr 2013 #16
apparently the older had used pot but stopped when he became more religious. according to HiPointDem Apr 2013 #81
I was wondering if they found some kind of propaganda and believed it. Rex Apr 2013 #3
Anyone pursuing the theory of a brain damaged boxer? RagAss Apr 2013 #11
No. And there's a great reason for that. n/t B2G Apr 2013 #29
Let's not forget OldHippieChick Apr 2013 #58
So he had terrorism posts on his YouTube channel. randome Apr 2013 #59
Given that the FBI questioned him after a Russian uncle reported him snagglepuss Apr 2013 #61
perhaps you should wait for actual news reports BainsBane Apr 2013 #72
perhaps you could ignore threads that do not meet your standards? snagglepuss Apr 2013 #73
So are you saying you don't care that you're posting BainsBane Apr 2013 #74
proud to be muslim rehabiti Apr 2013 #76
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
1. borderline personality disorder- immaturity/ irresponsibility, fits of rage, delusions of
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:58 PM
Apr 2013

superiority mixed with feelings of emptiness, manipulation, and always blaming others.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
47. As fast and as far as possible
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:53 PM
Apr 2013

in the opposite direction. That is a recipe for disaster, sometimes, as here, epic when carried into adulthood.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
49. I know I have, LOL. Gets easier to recognize them (and know the potential for damage) when you are
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:56 PM
Apr 2013

a bit older and wiser. Yeah, I'm looking at you Aunt Peggy and cousin Margaret! LOL.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
36. Isn't this about the age between twenty two and twenty six, that there
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:33 PM
Apr 2013

could be an underlying genetic mental illness lurking in the psyche that comes to the surface? I know it happened to my neighbor's son who started having bi-polar episodes when he went to graduate school about that age. The other kid was too young but maybe was influenced by his brother.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
44. well schizophrenia, and I think also it's a rough transitional time when you have to grow up and
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:50 PM
Apr 2013

start taking care of your own shit. You'd never know anyone had BPD in HS or college because teenagers are often that emotionally volatile, selfish and latching on to changing ideas of who they are. When that shit continues into adulthood- the "no settling down" thing, it starts to be obvious who has issues.
BPD in it's extreme form includes sociopaths, but in most forms does feature the need to control and manipulate others. And never getting grounded in building the life you want, instead the easy flipping of identity- one year he's totally into money, boxing, a flashy lifestyle, then gets in with radicals, and becomes deeply into that. There's an empty restless core to those with bad BPD that makes them latch onto other people/ lifestyles. Also, very volatile black and white thinking, violent outbursts, and total externalization of blame.
I was just reading about this in the Arias murder trial, and it fits here too. But I'd imagine a lot of murderous people fall into this category.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
48. Interesting. I never took any courses in psychology so I'm not
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:56 PM
Apr 2013

well versed in it. Thanks for the insight.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
52. no problem, unfortunately I have grown up with both schizophrenics and sociopaths
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:14 PM
Apr 2013

in my immediate family, so I've done a lot of reading. (Also lost both parents to different diseases effecting the brain)
I was once one of those easy going people that sociopaths tried to control. Everyone else saw how weird and controlling they were except for me. It wasn't until they were engaging in some seriously ugly shit with others that I kind of woke up and saw what they really were all about. Because they are great when you agree with them. They destroyed my brothers relationships with each other and were working on getting them to hate me too, spreading all sorts of lies. All while my Mom was on her deathbed. Shameless attempt at dividing and conquering us, just so they could feel superior. Creating havoc is like a sport to them! Took me a few years to get them out of my life. Glad that chapter is long over.
I have a lot more sympathy for schizophrenics- in my family, they were the gentle souls, very sensitive and super creative minds, just wired all wrong. Tortured by hallucinations. Unlike the sociopaths, they could not hurt a fly. Only themselves.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
4. I missed that detail. I wonder if he killed them? Killed them as some kind initiation
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:06 PM
Apr 2013

to prove to an extremist group that he had what it takes to be one them. That he had extremist views and that these kuffir were murdered on an anniversery of 9/11 is just a bit too coincidental.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
5. Maybe it was a heated argument over terrorism and Muslims?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:11 PM
Apr 2013

I looked up the date, and September 11, 2011 was a Sunday. Just speculating now, but... maybe Brendan invited Erik and Raphael and Tamerlan over for a beer or two (and some weed - they all liked to smoke pot, it appears), and when the subject turned to the 10th anniversary of 9/11, things went horribly wrong.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
6. One man cutting the throats of three others? I don't think so.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:24 PM
Apr 2013

The murder(s) were never caught so it appears well planned. Note: Had a camera not caught the back pack being placed and a victim not been able to ID the bomber, the Marathon bombers would also not have been caught. No one but no one suspected them. This too was carefully planned.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
7. OK, but is there a precedent for these 'initiation' killings you mentioned?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:26 PM
Apr 2013

I've just never heard about anything like that, that's all.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
9. I have. Here's just one story
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:55 PM
Apr 2013
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57577553/ind-teens-shooting-death-part-of-gang-initiation-four-charged/


Of course I am just speculating but throats cut on 9/11 sound like a ritual killing. The fact that the older brother visibilily seen changed after these murders and the fact that he knew one of them is just too wierd.
 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
14. that's a *gang* initiation. supposedly. yes, you're just speculating. with no evidence whatsoever.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:08 PM
Apr 2013
 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
38. They were stabbed in the neck/throat...it is a good question on who could stab three grown men
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:36 PM
Apr 2013

men who were untied and thereby seemingly able to resist. One of them was training in mixed martial arts! So, what kind of person could disable all three with neck or throat stabs?

Some answers suggest themselves: 1) the killer had to have known the victims; could not be a "drug deal" or other situation that would suggest a guarded stance. The victims were at ease around the attacker. 2) Nevertheless, the attacker would have to have extremely fast and accurate thrusts - even knowing the attacker, the second and third victims would have some time to respond or escape, unless the attacker was very dexterous, fact, and accurate with jabs.

Like, say, a trained and accomplished boxer...

Any trained and accomplished boxers who knew the victims of this triple homicide?

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
62. The police in fact did determine that at least one of them knew the attacker(s)
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:22 PM
Apr 2013

and that it wasn't a random crime.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
67. I don't know how the police could "determine" that
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:14 PM
Apr 2013

They could deduce from the scene that the victims probably knew their attacker, but that would seem the limit.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
68. Point taken.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:19 PM
Apr 2013

Leone said the slayings may have been drug-related and investigation is ongoing. It is believed that the victims knew the assailant or assailants, and the attacks were not random.

“It does look as if the assailants and the decedents did know each other,” he said.


Read more: Three Cambridge natives mourned after brutal Waltham murder - Waltham, Massachusetts - Wicked Local Waltham http://www.wickedlocal.com/waltham/news/x985869796/Three-Cambridge-natives-mourned-after-brutal-Waltham-murder#ixzz2R28113eA
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike
Follow us: @WickedLocal on Twitter | 119311408344 on Facebook

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
69. Yes, you deduce this from the evidence
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:24 PM
Apr 2013

No forced entry. Little sign of struggle. No need to restrain victims 2 and 3 while victim 1 is being killed. Perhaps 4 drink glasses on a table, or four poker hands still splayed on a table, whatever. Body placement. Form of the injuries. Etc. I agree that it is very difficult to stab to death three grown men in an apartment unless they are fairly comfortable with your presence, or restrained. It doesn't sound like these guys were restrained in any way, so they knew their attacker, in all likelihood.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
71. What is your opinion of my admittedly wild speculation that this
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:32 PM
Apr 2013

was an opportunity for Tamerlane so show his stuff to a Jihadi group that he could be trusted to handle an attack?

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
75. Doesn't make much sense
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:43 PM
Apr 2013

This strikes me as a rage crime among people who know each other, not a planned murder. This was a highly risky, poorly thought out homicide. Quite frankly, I consider the whole idea of "initiation murders" to be largely urban legend, and a deep misunderstanding of how any group -- from gangs to terrorist cells --actually operate. But even if there were such a things as a "prove yourself" or "initiation" homicide, this would be a very poor candidate for that indeed, as the situation has more likelihood to tip out of control than to end well for the killer. It doesn't strike me as drug reprisal either, since neighborhood guys moving low to medium weights don't get murdered for pot, various overblown mythologies notwithstanding. There's not enough money in play. No, this was a rage crime, a snap and frenzy, committed by somebody of some modest physical capabilities.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
79. but once you stab one, how do you stab the other two before they jump *you*? i'd say it
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:55 AM
Apr 2013

indicates attackers, plural.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
21. Only the bomb construction appears well-planned.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:32 PM
Apr 2013

They wore easily identified articles of clothing. No disguises. No planned escape. No money to escape. They actually had a remarkable lack of planning.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
63. No the planning was superb because they never would have been suspected if it
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:32 PM
Apr 2013

hadn't been for that Lord & Taylor camera and the victim who lived to ID them. Who would ever think that a CCTV would capture someone casually laying down a bag in the midst of a teeming crowd? And remember only one bomb being placed was caught on camera. These guys blended in. They left on foot like everybody else. They looked innocent because they weren't disguised.

Furthermore a security expert said that these two had lots of practice. He said setting off 2 bombs simultaneously is extremely hard. This was indeed well planned.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
65. The backwards white cap stuck out like a sore thumb.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:05 PM
Apr 2013

So did the hoodie's hood hanging over the jacket. And I guess they didn't check for security cams ahead of time...that was bad planning. Walking together also helped ID them...not necessary since bombs were a block apart. And of course no contingency plan to get out of town in case they were ID'd is also poor planning.
Not difficult to set off two bombs 12 seconds apart with a remote trigger...thats about how long it would take to change frequencies and push a button. Possibly could be done with digital timers too. I haven't seen any evidence they practiced, although its very possible the elder brother got bomb-making instruction when he visited Dagestan earlier...or he simply followed instructions on internet.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
66. According the bomb expert you're wrong. He said categorically that these
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:14 PM
Apr 2013

type of denotations normally fail. He also said that McVeigh went into the desert and practiced, in fact people heard the detonations but they dismissed them because it was out in the desert. As for the the cap and standing out. That is just brilliant because they didn't seem interested in hiding their appearance. They did miscalculate about the camera but as I statd before only one bomb placement was caught on camera.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
31. That was my first thought, but then again he was a top notch boxer.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:13 PM
Apr 2013

He could have stunned or knocked them out first and then slit their throats. The pot could have been sprinkled to make it look like it was a drug dealer hit.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
39. The stories I've read didn't indicate "slit" throats, but victims stabbed in the throat
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

Even easier for a boxer, seems to me: three quick jabs.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
12. lol. since any dealer ripped off his supplier.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:03 PM
Apr 2013

yeah, your 'initiation' theory where the older brother kills his best friend to prove himself to al qaeda is muuuuuuch more believable.

and your 'evidence' -- a supposed street gang initiation in chicago where the victim is *shot*.

here:


Drug dealer who cut off his friend's head and refused to tell police where he hid it is jailed for 20 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095534/Drug-dealer-cut-friends-head-refused-tell-police-hid-jailed-20-years.html

Trio of vigilantes 'killed and dismembered drug dealer, 19, with a machete

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2264219/Trio-vigilantes-killed-dismembered-drug-dealer-19-machete-bid-rid-world-evil.html

Drug dealer slashed men with cut-throat razor in brutal attack by EDL gang

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2013/2/21/drug-dealer-slashed-men-with-cut-throat-razor-in-brutal-atta.html

SAMURAI HORROR AS DRUG DEALER'S THROAT SLASHED; Man, 24, bleeds to death in lane.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SAMURAI+HORROR+AS+DRUG+DEALER%27S+THROAT+SLASHED%3B+Man,+24,+bleeds+to...-a0191251002

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
17. True it's pure speculation but the coincidence that Tamerlane had a friend
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:15 PM
Apr 2013

who had his throat sliced on the anniversary of 9/11 is quite the coincidence. What is chilling is that his father lives is in the same region where in 1999, Chechen rebels beheaded 6 young Russian conscripts and they did it slowly, the soldiers were filmed begging for their lives as they heads were only partially connected. The Islamists in Chechen are depraved so if he got trained by any one of the, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possiblity of his killing his friend.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
19. yeah, it was supposedly 'chilling' that the young one got his citizenship on 9/11 too, except that
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:27 PM
Apr 2013

so did 2500 other people, in a mass ceremony.

the elder went to russia in 2012. his friend was killed in 2011.

the older one went to russia (where his parents had recently moved and where other family members lived). this is supposedly a big red flag according to you. i went abroad and family members within 3 months came & stayed with me for 3 months. probably they were training to be terrorists too.

"What is chilling is that his father lives is in the same region where in 1999, Chechen rebels beheaded 6 young Russian conscripts" -- chilling? the father lives in the region, so the father must have involvement? that's idiotic and so is your theory.





snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
20. No the big red flag is that an uncle in Russia was concerned enough about his extremist thinking
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:30 PM
Apr 2013

that he contacted authorities which is why the Tamerlane was interviewed by the FBI.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
26. yes, that's a red flag. but it doesn't mean that any of your other speculation has any basis in
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:47 PM
Apr 2013

fact.

i could spin another story: chechnyan dissidence has reportedly been fomented by the US to destabilize russia's southern periphery, which is oil-rich and crucial for various reasons -- caspian sea claims, pipelines, etc.

tamerlan got involved with western provocateurs who used him for their own purposes. that's why the fbi didn't pursue the uncle's lead.

just as much evidence for my speculation as yours.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
24. lol. better than someone who says a gang shooting in chicago is evidence that a chechnyan
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:39 PM
Apr 2013

is a terrorist who slit his best friend's throat in an initiation.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
28. I am brainstorming not investigating. Not for one instance have I claimed
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:03 PM
Apr 2013

to be doing anything other than speculating. The facts that are undeniable is that these two brothers are ruthless, planned the bombings in advance and that the older brother had extremist leanings for several years.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
37. Now that that's cleared up, look at this gem of a comment I found!
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:34 PM
Apr 2013

About halfway down the comment section, someone had pretty much the same thoughts you did:

"It is possible that this heinous crime was not drug related at all. Maybe they were targeted due to some road rage incident or perhaps because they were Jewish. Did this happen to them on 9/11 ? Daniel Pearl come to mind?"

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/2011/09/14/did-you-know-eric-weissman-or-rapheal-teken/#axzz2R2NIfQpg

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
40. Dollars to donuts the police are going to take another look at the case.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

And consider this these murders happened two years ago and it was two years he went off to Russia. I'd loved to know whether the murders happened before or after he went to Russia.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
46. I wouldn't bet the farm but this stinks to high heaven.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:53 PM
Apr 2013

That bastard was ruthless. I suspect he had to prove he had the necessary ruthlessness and aptitude whatever group agreed to train him for an attack in the US. Consider this. Jihads have had numerous failed attempts because of the dolts they trusted to carry out the attacks. Each failed attack was a major set back. Going back to the drawing Jihads knew they had to be way more selective and what better way than to have a wannabe commit murder.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
80. before. 2011, he went to russia 2012. omg!
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:56 AM
Apr 2013

But Christopher Swift, who teaches national security studies at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and has studied the war in Chechnya for nearly 15 years, said it is unlikely that the Tsarnaev brothers were formally trained by Chechen Islamist militants, whose terrorist activities have always been focused on Russia.

“If there is any connection between these kids and the insurgency there, it will be the first time they have struck a target outside of Russia,” Swift said in an interview.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/relatives-marathon-bombing-suspects-worried-that-older-brother-was-corrupting-sweet-younger-sibling/UCYHkiP9nfsjAtMjJPWJJL/story.html

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
60. did another country contact the US government and warn them about you?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:00 PM
Apr 2013

That you were falling in with radicalized Islamists?

" i went abroad and family members within 3 months came & stayed with me for 3 months. probably they were training to be terrorists too."

Just wondering.

Because another government (I've read it was Russia) contacted the US about the older brother when he went to Russia, to warn the US. The FBI investigated, but from their report it doesn't seem like they dug very deep. And then the FBI went back to the other government and asked for more detailed info and never got a response.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
77. did the fbi find anything incriminating? apparently not. did the russians (or whoever) find
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:21 AM
Apr 2013

anything?

apparently not if they didn't bother to respond.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
82. not necessarily. there could be any number of reasons
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 06:52 AM
Apr 2013

that the Russians or whoever didn't respond. There is plenty of corruption and violence in their government and society, possibly more than here in the US.

It doesn't take much, does it, to start speculating?

As I wrote earlier, it doesn't look to me from their own report like the FBI dug very deep on the older brother. Somebody radicalized them both, and their uncle is now saying he believes it was somebody in the US (of Armenian descent), not Russian or Chechnya.

Now, suddenly, the FBI is digging deeper and finding people to question and hold.

I suspect there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye. But then that's probably true of any number of stories.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
84. yes; it could be the armenian was an american provocateur from the fbi. that seems to be the
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 03:05 PM
Apr 2013

way of it in a lot of these cases.

the uncle is now joining the boy's mother in saying they were set up.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
27. "the same region" = dagestan, which is 19,420.9 sq mi. He lives in the capital city Makhachkala.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:56 PM
Apr 2013

The only ID I can find for the location of the supposed beheading of 6 russians (I say supposed because the only references i find are on anti-islam sites) is either 'dagestan' (which is a province) or "the village of dagestan" which as far as I can tell doesn't exist.

IOW, no evidence that the father was in any way near this event or had anything to do with it or was influenced by it or anything else.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
33. I'm not involving the father. My point is that this region is rift with Islamists.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:30 PM
Apr 2013

Having his Dad there simply provides cover for being in this region.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
41. "I don't need evidence" = sure, glad you acknowledge it. i'll repeat my theory which has as much
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:39 PM
Apr 2013

perhaps more foundation than yours:

chechnyan dissidence has reportedly been fomented by the US to destabilize russia's southern periphery, which is oil-rich and geopolitically crucial for various reasons -- caspian sea claims, pipelines, etc.

tamerlan got involved with western internet provocateurs who used him for their own purposes. that's why the fbi didn't pursue the uncle's lead.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
22. Only one of those involved weed and that one was a random attack. This murder was not random
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:32 PM
Apr 2013

according to the police.


snip


Leone said the slayings may have been drug-related and investigation is ongoing. It is believed that the victims knew the assailant or assailants, and the attacks were not random.

“It does look as if the assailants and the decedents did know each other,” he said.


Read more: Three Cambridge natives mourned after brutal Waltham murder - Waltham, Massachusetts - Wicked Local Waltham http://www.wickedlocal.com/waltham/news/x985869796/Three-Cambridge-natives-mourned-after-brutal-Waltham-murder#ixzz2R28113eA
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike
Follow us: @WickedLocal on Twitter | 119311408344 on Facebook

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
25. lol. all three of the bodies were found together covered with marijuana, and one guy was a
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:42 PM
Apr 2013

known dealer (or had at least been caught before with large quantities of pot).

did the older kid kill them all as part of this supposed 'initiation'?

Waltham Police came to the Waltham apartment at about 2:25 p.m. on Sept. 12 to find the bodies of the three men inside. A neighbor said a woman, who first discovered the bodies, ran out of the home shortly before police arrived and said the bodies were covered in marijuana.

and now it's an ice pick stabbing, not a throat slitting.

Michelle McPhee, a reporter with Wicked Local media partner WCVB, reported that a law enforcement official told her the men were all stabbed to death with a knife or ice pick.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
43. To be fair, an ice pick to the throat would actually be better evidence on Tamerlan
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:45 PM
Apr 2013

Somebody knowing the victims who was trained at jabbing is going to be able to put down three grown dudes pretty quickly; an icepick or equivalent is also the kind of thing that might be around the house, suggesting an unplanned act as opposed to some drug set up. They also found $5,000 in the house - I'm not sure about a drug-deal related killing where the killers leave money and drugs - that doesn't make much sense either. This looks like a rage killing by somebody who knew the victims well.

For my money, we know the older Tsarnaev was prone to fits of rage, knew the victims well enough for them to feel comfortable around them, and could accomplish the deed of throat striking three grown men in rapid succession. There's no doubt that this is baseless speculation, but the rage killing makes more sense to me than the drug deal scenario. There's at least a plausible case to be made for Tamerlan Tsarnaev here.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
45. FWIW, at least two of the three victims were Jewish.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:51 PM
Apr 2013

Reading about all three victims today - Brendan Mess, Erik Weissman and Raphael Teken - I learned that both Erik and Rafi were Jewish.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
50. "There's no doubt that this is baseless speculation" = yes.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:11 PM
Apr 2013

"rage killing makes more sense to me than the drug deal scenario" = so in their rage they covered the bodies with marijuana....

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
53. Is that what drug dealers do?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:15 PM
Apr 2013

Sprinkle some marijuana on the victims, then leave an envelope with five grand sitting there?

Plenty of ways for marijuana to get all over the victims in a rage killing - indeed, it makes more sense that the place would be a mess in a rage killing.

In any case, we're all playing a little speculation game here, so can we do it in a friendly way?

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
56. i'd suggest the point of an upper-level supplier killing lower level dealers when they stiff him is
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:27 PM
Apr 2013

not to get a lousy $5000 back or waste time searching for hidden money in their apartment.

it's to send a message to others who might try the same.

evidence of a rage killing would be multiple wounds, disfigurement, etc.

three people dead at a single location suggests multiple killers = not a rage killing.

i haven't been unfriendly.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
57. It would have to be pretty drastic amounts of pot
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:37 PM
Apr 2013

for a triple murder. I've known a lot of pot dealers in my time - you're into some serious weight before people start talking triple murder. I don't really buy that - these guys were at best low level dudes, neighborhood wholesalers at most - the one who had the dealing / possession bust sounded like a rank amateur (Oh, I knew you'd smell it, officer, here's a bag with separate baggies...).

Three people dead at a single location could suggest either. Stories vary on whether there were one or two suspects, but I don't think anyone knows. And there were multiple wounds on the victims - not just the throat stabbings; the scene was a bloody mess. And again, who COULD stab three guys successfully? Somebody quick and accurate with his hands, seems to me.

Sorry! I read your previous post as aggressively snarky. I'm too thin skinned, I guess!

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
78. well, surfing around the web it seems that two of them were drug dealers...and mess had an assault
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:48 AM
Apr 2013

charge...


Raphael ...lived off of Moody Street in Waltham. He was also a known drug dealer so none of this is shocking...Dude, if you were Rafi’s friend, you’d know he didn’t work. Not for YEARS. So um what do you think he did for a living when he didn’t leave the house all day, every day and every night. I was his friend, and I do know.

...It was weed, not meth or coke, weed. You are a fucking fool if you thgink a weed dealer deserved to die...would you want shit talked about you if you were murdered in cold blood over a dime bag?

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/2011/09/14/did-you-know-eric-weissman-or-rapheal-teken/


The men killed were Brendan Mess, 25, of Waltham; Erik Weissman, 31, of Cambridge; and Raphael Teken, 37, of Cambridge...Authorities say the slayings were targeted, and they are seeking one or more suspects.

Residents of the quiet side street say that police have told them the men had been stabbed and that the killings were drug-related.

In 2010, Mess and another man were arrested on charges that they assaulted several people at a store, according to a Cambridge police log.

In 2008, Weissman was charged with marijuana possession and intent to distribute, according to a report.

Teken lived in Waltham, and two neighbors who asked to remain anonymous said they believed he was a drug dealer, saying he rarely left the house and had a steady stream of visitors.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/09/15/police_id_3_victims_in_waltham_killings/

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
83. No doubt
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:29 AM
Apr 2013

Two of them were drug dealers. Very low level drug dealers by the looks of things. If you stay at home all day and have a steady stream of visitors, you're just a notch above retail level for pot, and you're probably even then doing a good amount of retail sales - twenty sacks and even dimes (dime bags, as his friend notes!). We're not even at the level of neighborhood wholesale, which would be the minimum weight to see somebody get knocked for, and even then, a triple murder for the retail pot dealer? It doesn't happen. This guy was picking up maybe a half pound or a pound a week from the local wholesaler, bagging it, and selling it to friends and friends of friends. The other guy there was probably moving product for him. You can string together a living doing that, about the same as working a blue collar job, maybe 45, 50 a year profit if you hustle. He was, after all, still hanging out with 25 year olds in apartments at age 37: the guy wasn't moving weight or handling much money. Retail pot dealers don't get killed for drug burns - it's silly, and nobody takes on three bodies for even a few grand here and there. The very description of their drug activities militates against the drug reprisal argument.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
85. because a terrorist initiation rite where one stabs his best friend and two others with an icepick
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 03:13 PM
Apr 2013

is soooooooo much more believable than a drug dealer murder....

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
86. Here's my thoughts on initiation rite posted upthread (under the title "Doesn't make much sense")
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 04:03 PM
Apr 2013
"This strikes me as a rage crime among people who know each other, not a planned murder. This was a highly risky, poorly thought out homicide. Quite frankly, I consider the whole idea of "initiation murders" to be largely urban legend, and a deep misunderstanding of how any group -- from gangs to terrorist cells --actually operate. But even if there were such a things as a "prove yourself" or "initiation" homicide, this would be a very poor candidate for that indeed, as the situation has more likelihood to tip out of control than to end well for the killer. "


I wasn't the one who proposed initiation rite, and I agree that it doesn't make much sense. I posted that well before your response here. For the record: I'm the guy with the other (most plausible) argument on the thread.

As for how you stick all three, again, that would be exceedingly hard to do for an ordinary person, but perhaps not so hard to do for somebody trained in quick and accurate jabbing, like a boxer. You stick all three immediately to disable them, then finish them. Rage + skill. It's the combination that the other less plausible scenarios can't come up with.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
16. it's an interesting wrinkle that the younger was a pot smoker, and the older, very anti....
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:12 PM
Apr 2013

yet older's best friend's death is somehow involved with it.
I'm going with the loser theory.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
81. apparently the older had used pot but stopped when he became more religious. according to
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:58 AM
Apr 2013

something i read somewhere on the web, which means it could be completely wrong.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
3. I was wondering if they found some kind of propaganda and believed it.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:02 PM
Apr 2013

With all the relatives and people that knew them saying they could never believe 'do it'. An Australian preacher? Now that I did not see coming.

RagAss

(13,832 posts)
11. Anyone pursuing the theory of a brain damaged boxer?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:00 PM
Apr 2013

Look for that angle in the next few weeks. Anything goes when someone has a column to write.

OldHippieChick

(2,434 posts)
58. Let's not forget
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:42 PM
Apr 2013

that he beat his girlfriend and she got an order of protection. That incident may likely have prevented him from becoming a citizen. It's beginning to sound personal to me

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
59. So he had terrorism posts on his YouTube channel.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:54 PM
Apr 2013

I've always been told here that the government is snooping into every aspect of all 300 million American citizens and that this is evidence of a police state.

Apparently the rumors of a police state have been greatly exaggerated.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
61. Given that the FBI questioned him after a Russian uncle reported him
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:52 PM
Apr 2013

but gave him the all clear and didn't keep tabs on him also brings into question how closely people are monitored. Sounds to me that rumors of Muslims being placed under extra scrutiny doesn't bear water. That said I think the reason why he wasn't monitored is that he wasn't Arab, he seemed too all American.

BainsBane

(53,003 posts)
74. So are you saying you don't care that you're posting
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:37 PM
Apr 2013

an unreliable source or don't care if the information isn't true?

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