This is seeming more and more like Columbine, and little to do with Muslim radicalism.

[onehandle]

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 08:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Two messed up young men, one more than the other, with access to arms, looking for attention.

Think of the 'Jihadist' aspect as a persona, like the 'Trenchcoat Mafia' was for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

[still_one]

1. I don't think so, based on their last two years

[Buzz Clik]

3. +1

[Honeycombe8]

48. +1. I think some people don't like that it ended up being who it was.

But it is. It really did make sense that it might've been a wacko teabagger, but, well, it is what it is. The older guy had been investigated before for possible contacts with a terrorist group. And other things about the guys.

[still_one]

51. Very well put, it is what it is

[FrodosPet]

59. Actually, teabagger does not make sense

Klan/Skinheads, etc...maybe, but in retrospect, unlikely.

They have some hateful and violent positions, but it seems like they would blow up a post office or some other government installation. Perhaps a Democratic or third party office. Or, if radically racist, perhaps an African American, Jewish, or Islamic location.

But politically, it makes no sense. It would strengthen the call for gun control. They would be killing "God Fearing White 'Mericuns" along with the rest.

Not saying that was an impossibility that it was a RW group, but the more I thought about it, the less likely it became.

[onehandle]

62. The FBI dismissed the idea of him being connected to terrorist groups. nt.

[Honeycombe8]

84. I said he'd been investigated for possible contacts with terrorist groups.

We don't know the findings of hte investigation. Just that whatever they found, if anything, wasn't enough to arrest him. A foreign govt had reported him to our govt.

[hollysmom]

2. I am not sure if the "romance" of Chechen Rebels did not play a part

That does have a Muslim base behind it, not a real Muslim base, but the radical offshoot.

[snagglepuss]

4. What is a real Muslim base? You don't think Salafis are real Muslims?

[hollysmom]

27. Sorry, I only judge from my friends,

the Muslims I know are pretty much anti-violence. They tell me the more extreme sects are mis-interpreting the Koran. I should probably study more before speaking and taking others word.

[markpkessinger]

63. Chechens' grievances are with Russia, not the U.S.

Just because there are Chechen rebels who have used terrorism against the country they see as their oppressor (Russia), doesn't necessarily mean these two Chechen Americans were necessarily part of some terrorist plot against the U.S. That is a gargantuan leap! Now, if you want to argue that they may have been influenced or inspired by Chechen rebels, that is certainly plausible. But being inspired or influenced by is not at all the same thing as being part of a plot to hatch terror against the U.S.

Look, when groups use terrorism, typically they are eager to claim responsibility for what they did. They are trying to make some kind of statement. None of that seems to apply here. It appears the only statement these boys were making was about their own cultural maladjustment and misdirected anger at the world in general.

[hollysmom]

81. yes, I meant inspired.

[jessie04]

74. Really

nt

[hollysmom]

80. not sure if this is a question or support

Do Ialways know what I am saying or communicate it well, no, but in this case I was remembering back to the 60's and the"romance" of supporters of Che Guevara. It seemed like some people just liked the way he looked or other shallow things, other people delved deeper before deciding where they stood (either way)

[snagglepuss]

5. How do you arrive at that? A Russian uncle was so conerned about the

extremist iews of the older one that he reported him which is why the FBI interviewed him 2 years ago.

[onehandle]

60. And they dismissed it as hearsay. The uncle had almost no contact with them for ten years. nt

[Hoyt]

6. It's similar to Eric Rudolph -- a Christian bomber. There have been a lot more of them here.

[Zax2me]

31. Your post is uniformed.

And ignorant of facts at best.

[Hoyt]

35. You don't think these murderers and Rudolph are similar?

[lanlady]

7. how do you know they were "looking for attention"?

on what basis do you make that claim?

[onehandle]

61. That's one of the prime attributes of mass and serial killers. nt

[MOTRDemocrat]

8. Downplaying an event with speculation is as bad as blowing it out of proportion...

I am comfortable with waiting on the official narrative now that the main threats have been eliminated.

[HiPointDem]

23. you do that, then

[bushisanidiot]

9. Yep.

.

[El Fuego]

10. I was thinking that as well.

I read the excellent book "Columbine" by Dave Cullen, which has a lot of detail about the mentality of the two boys. There are some major parallels with the Boston bombers. In Columbine, one kid was remorseless psychotic mastermind and the other a depressed, suicidal follower. They fed off each other until there was no going back. It seems like the same thing here.

[badtoworse]

11. Sorry to disappoint you, but...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022722818

[onehandle]

22. Exactly. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold got a lot of 'ideas' from the Internet too.

And concocted their own little messed up microcosm.

[cthulu2016]

12. Aside from the Muslim radicalism, you would be right

[riderinthestorm]

25. +1. The older brother was clearly a devout Muslim these past few years

and somewhere along the line appears to have tipped over into Islamic radicalism.

Younger brother is more of an enigma - did he secretly buy into that twisted philosophy (he publicly proclaims Islam as his religion but who knows how devout he was) or did he simply follow big brother's lead out of love for his brother?

But yeah, its weird how many people don't want to see the plain facts of the older brother...

[bhikkhu]

47. I'm wondering if you can learn to be a "devout muslim" by watching internet videos

I think the point is that you can only construct your own thinly supported private microcosm, where the isolation is real and dangerous, but you don't become a real Muslim. Any more than the "trenchcoat mafia" was a real thing. It was his own twisted private world that had far too small a connection to the real world to pass blame along.

As the point was made, real Muslims believe in peace, respect themselves and their communities, and follow the law.

[riderinthestorm]

49. "No True Scotsman" fallacy applies to Muslims as well as Christians. If he says he's a devout Muslim

and his family said he was a devout Muslim, I will go with he's a devout Muslim despite whatever actions he or his brother (who also self identifies as a Muslim) have done.

The Phelps clan self-identifies as Christians as well. It doesn't matter what you think of their actions.

"Real" or not, they are.

FWIW, Salafi Muslims are rampaging across the ME and Northern Africa as we speak imposing THEIR version of Islam on the populations that they conquer - killing any who resist, bankrolled by the Salafi Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States. That vast swath of Muslim believers would take "your" interpretation of Islam as incorrect. They are as "real" as any other Muslim and you don't really get to say otherwise.

[Quantess]

13. Okay. What are you basing this on? A hunch?

A gut feeling? Because, you know, a LOT of people had a hunch the bomber was a RW teabagger just 2 days ago.

[X_Digger]

34. His bugabear is guns, therefore everything spins to that orbit eventually. n/t

[Quantess]

45. I'm not familiar with this DUer, but, if you say so.

There are also a lot of people who really want this bombing incident to be a certain way just because it makes them feel better. It's wishful thinking.

[X_Digger]

46. As I said in another thread..

.. when people were speculating about RWNJ / tax protest / tea partier / etc etc..

In the gap between tragedy and investigation..

People treat it like a blank canvas, painting their particular bugabear as the reason.

They want to be able to say, "I told you so." so badly that all sense goes out the window.

*sigh*

[premium]

14. You're kidding, right?

Are you so blinded by your hatred of guns that you're not willing to see that it's almost certain an act of terrorism?

[onehandle]

15. That's funny. I have never had a conversation with you, nor any idea of your existence...

...yet you seem to 'know' me.

You 'guys' are so transparent.

[premium]

16. All one's got to do is read your comments on guns

and know where you stand on gun ownership, not to hard to figure out.
But, care to answer my question?

[onehandle]

17. Columbine and Boston were both terrorism. So was Sandy Hook.

And you are on ignore.

[morningfog]

69. It can be terrorism without being a jihadist act.

[premium]

78. True,

but so far the evidence seems to be mounting that this is a case of a radical muslim act of terrorism judging what they've found so far on his social media site.

I'm quite sure that the investigators will find out just what pushed these 2 young men to commit these acts of terror.

[Nye Bevan]

18. Hmmmm. I see a couple of bloodthirsty Jihadists blowing people up. (nt)

[onehandle]

19. Submit that headline to Rupert Murdoch. nt

[Nye Bevan]

20. Broken clock nt

[El Fuego]

39. So far it looks like they're not a part of a actual terrorist organization.

If they were just acting on their own, they might have been just using the Jihadist thing as an excuse for violence.

[onehandle]

55. Yep. nt

[morningfog]

70. Jihadists? Link to that?

They may have been muslims, even radical muslims, but that does not necessarily mean this was a jihadist act.

[Nye Bevan]

83. Here ya go:

Tamerlan had, according to several relatives, become a far more devout Muslim in recent years, praying five times a day and criticising the US from a religious point of view. The YouTube channel "Tamerlan Tsarnaev" has nearly 700 subscribers, and shows Islamist videos. One playlist is called "Terrorists" and contained two videos, now removed. The other, "Islam", features seven videos, including "The Emergence of Prophecy: The Black Flags From Khorasan", which has been linked to jihadist ideology.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-fbis-big-miss-boston-bombing-fugitive-shot-dead-was-on-radar-two-years-ago-8581570.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. You might want to take a closer look at the older brother...

[maddezmom]

26. Agree, some very good details in this Globe article

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/relatives-marathon-bombing-suspects-worried-that-older-brother-was-corrupting-sweet-younger-sibling/UCYHkiP9nfsjAtMjJPWJJL/story.html

[OhioChick]

33. That was a very interesting read

Worthy of it's own thread.

Thanks for posting.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. "By the FBI's own admission, the FBI was warned about Tsarnaev in 2011 by a foreign government..."

The FBI was warned two years ago that the elder brother was becoming a radicalized Muslim.

Doesn't wash. Sorry.

[onehandle]

52. And they investigated and dismissed the idea.

Watching Muslim videos online doesn't make you 'radicalized,' sorry.

[jessie04]

28. " nothing to do with Muslim radicalism"

You could NOT be more mistaken.

[onehandle]

54. No Al Queda camps. No orders from Bin Laden.

Kids with messed up fantasies.

Not mistaken, but let President Cheney know you believe him.

[jessie04]

73. The cancer of bin-laden has spread.

it appears the older brother attained his knowledge in Chehnia (sp).

Whether we like it or not, this is not the first time we have seen islamic fundamentalism have engaged or attempted to engage in terrorism learned from fundamnentalist radicals.

WTC1--AQ
WTC2--AQ
SHOE BOMBER-trained in Afghanistan
Padilla--trained under KSM
Lackawanna Six--trained at AQ training camp in Afghanistan
Brooklyn Bridge attempt--- trained under KSM
Columbus Ohio Mall plot
New York Stock Exchange attempt--Pakistan
New York Subway attempt
Sears Tower Plot
The 10 London Flight plot
Fort Hood plot--al-alwaki (sp)
Quantico Va plot--Pakistan
Zazi Subway plot--Pakistan
Underwear Bomber--Yemen
Times Square Bomber--Pakistan

I dont think Boston is much different.

[malaise]

29. Word is they were big time weed smokers

So much for the religious aspect since they sure weren't Rastas

[onehandle]

57. Yes. Hardly the habits of 'Muslim fundamentalists.' nt

[Zax2me]

30. It's only Muslim radicalism. What the heck have you been reading?

Because more and more evidence suggests you are way off base.

[Shankapotomus]

32. I think the older was using it as an excuse

to go suicidal. He was failing at life and probably was thinking about suicide already. Claiming it was a Jihadi mission would give him the semblance of being able to say he "accomplished" something to preserve his "dignity" in death.

On top of that, neither one had a history of terrorist activity previously. Seems like the older brother was looking for a way to die that would vindicate his life because he was passed the point of pleasing his family.

My guess is he dragged his popular younger brother in with him because he didn't want him alive as a contrast and rebuke to his failures.

[Jennicut]

36. That is kind of my guess to. He was violent

and depressed. He had issues with fitting in, with going to college, with his wife and her friends. His life was not going well, so he turned to radical Islam to give his life meaning. All of sudden praying 5 times a day. Denied naturalization due to a domestic violence incident. I think he is no great mastermind of jihad but a "loser" as his uncle said that allowed his anger at not making a life in America to fester. He became radicalized and then wanted to take anger out on the people that denied him an easy life, though it was at his own doing. Little brother was easily manipulated and influenced. Too bad, he seemed to have had a better future then his brother.

[magical thyme]

41. ^^^this, exactly. Excellent synopsis.

My foggy brain has been sort of headed that way. You articulated it far better than I could. Thank you for saving me the effort.

[onehandle]

53. Basically what I said. Yes. No history of terrorist activity is key. nt

[vaberella]

37. Actually it seems like these boys were brainwashed.

I'm not sure if I want them to pay or who ever got into their heads to being the real culprit and person to pay for the crime.

[cali]

38. well, the older one has payed. that's for sure

I'm not sure I get what you mean by brain washed. By who? Where? If you claim they were brainwashed you must have some idea about that.

[maddezmom]

40. His uncle mentioned brainwashing in an interview

http://t.today.com/news/uncle-mentors-radicalized-older-boston-bombing-suspect-6C9529666

[LisaL]

42. As I recall, that uncle last saw them years ago.

[cali]

66. so what? that doesn't begin to answer the question I asked you?

you're basing this on an uncle who by his own admission hadn't spoken to them in years? Well that's some shit evidence.

[maddezmom]

67. First of all you didn't ask me. I was just offering an article for info.

Geez.

[aikoaiko]

43. I would no less from you.

Lets let the facts guide our judgment.

[deaniac21]

44. .

[link:|

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. i'm thinking something more akin to the 1973 Symbionese Liberation Army pretend revolutionaries

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 01:24 AM - Edit history (2)

Those were the people that kidnapped Patty Hearst.

Like these two brothers they were motivated by a kind of political agenda - But more by the romanticized idea of the revolutionary fighter. They had no thought out or even a vaguely implied statement of purpose that any serious political organization would have. They were way too small to have any meaningful impact. And there were no stated or implied demands or list demands that was in any way whatsoever associated with their actions. There appears to be no concept of any goal of coercing the U.S. government or anyone else into changing their policies or political positions. Thus it could only borderline on calling it terrorism in any serious sense of the term. Even if there was an element of political ideology - it was something operating more in the world of make-believe -

[onehandle]

56. Right. No terror cells. Just messed up kids. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. I thinking they may very well have fancied themselves as heroic Chechen freedom fighters

There is no indication - so far anyway - of ANY conscious thought of how their actions might coerce the U.S. government or anyone else for that matter to change policy. Messed up - of course - Murderers - obviously - but to describe them as "Islamic Terrorist" or "Jihadist" - based on anything we have heard so far would simply not be intellectually honest. Perhaps some information might come out later that might support such a claim. But, so far - nothing supports that notion - at all. Simply the older brother becoming increasingly religious or perhaps even having pro-Islamist sympathies does not make their actions "Islamic terrorism." Their actions were murderous and that is bad enough.

[HiPointDem]

64. SLA = CIA

[Recursion]

65. The fact that you used the term "Trenchcoat Mafia" 15 years after Columbine

Suggests to me there will be a lot of wrong popular narratives about these two for quite a while.

[Quantess]

75. The "Trenchcoat Mafia" was a popular, and wrong narrative about the Columbine boys

that the media ran with. The meme stuck.

[morningfog]

68. North Caucasus rebels deny link to Boston bombings

MOSCOW, Russia — A website prominently used by Russia's North Caucasus rebels on Sunday denied any link to the Boston Marathon bombings that have been blamed on two ethnic-Chechen suspects.

"The command of the Vilayat Dagestan mujaheddin... declares that the Caucasus fighters are not waging any military activities against the United States of America. We are only fighting Russia," the Kavkacenter.com website said in an official statement.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hz0tmpokJ_dZ-S6DbTJa6nmUJpsA?docId=CNG.018e1625845b5f1688282300d99320f1.4d1

[cali]

71. It looks like a mish mash to me. religion, perhaps testosterone fueled behavior

perhaps building a delusional world together. I keep thinking that Dzhokhar seemed like a kid playing a video game. Cultural influences, perhaps a dash of Chechen nationalism.

Lots of elements here. We don't know the order of importance.

[onehandle]

72. That fits. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

76. If those are my two choices, I choose Radical Islam.

Sorry if my round peg goes in the round hole easier than your square one.

[Codeine]

77. Desperate deflections.

The incident didn't conform to the DU teabagger fantasies from a few days ago, so now we all have to close our eyes and pretend that when the little shits were babbling on about their religious dogma they didn't really mean it. . .

[jessie04]

79. Really

n-t

[Nye Bevan]

82. Yep. Don't mention Islamic extemism or Jihad.

Instead, portray them as white jock types.