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Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:58 PM Apr 2013

Poll: After a fair trial - Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be...


Poll below




26 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Found not guilty, because he was good kid and only did bad because he was influenced by older brother
0 (0%)
Found guilty, life in prison WITH a chance of parole
3 (12%)
Found guilty, life in prison WITHOUT a chance of parole
15 (58%)
Found guilty, and given the federal death penalty
7 (27%)
Other
1 (4%)
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
68 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Poll: After a fair trial - Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be... (Original Post) Tx4obama Apr 2013 OP
Seems you're projecting an outcome from this fair trial. flvegan Apr 2013 #1
IF I were projecting an outcome I would have placed the options in the poll in a different order. Tx4obama Apr 2013 #3
He is innocent until proven guilty... Agnosticsherbet Apr 2013 #2
Keep in mind .... Innocent until proven guilty is how a judge and jury MUST view a suspect Trajan Apr 2013 #24
45 year old version of the guy is much different alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #4
I'm not going to hate, but your certainty annoys me. Bicoastal Apr 2013 #20
'for all but the most heinous cases' I know many poeple who'd raise their hand to vote markiv Apr 2013 #21
No hate from me ornotna Apr 2013 #22
i would include this as one of those considered "most heinous" JI7 Apr 2013 #26
Very heinous alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #30
i think killing a child makes it irredeemable JI7 Apr 2013 #35
I agree with you. nt Live and Learn Apr 2013 #37
What's good for McVeigh is good for him. MrSlayer Apr 2013 #5
LOL, brilliant logic! n-t Logical Apr 2013 #8
Oh my alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #9
McVeigh was better at it. MrSlayer Apr 2013 #13
Fair enough alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #15
How sad, death penalty supporters on ths site! n-t Logical Apr 2013 #6
Life without parole, and given to psychological researchers as a guinea pig. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #7
I saw a documentary a few years back that said that no one ever 'studied' Jeffrey Dahmer Tx4obama Apr 2013 #27
+1. Edit: Its even more important here than with Jeffery Dalmer. napoleon_in_rags Apr 2013 #40
That is the only thing that makes any sense. nt hifiguy Apr 2013 #33
This will be a Federal trial. The sentence isn't really flexible. nt DevonRex Apr 2013 #10
Other: You know what's even better than justice for a murdered 8 year old? napoleon_in_rags Apr 2013 #11
I like the way you think n/t Fumesucker Apr 2013 #23
See Comment #27. Tx4obama Apr 2013 #29
Assuming he is found guilty, Blue_In_AK Apr 2013 #12
So your post implies skipping the trial? longship Apr 2013 #14
Huh? It says "After a fair trial..." in the subject line :) n/t Tx4obama Apr 2013 #32
Your poll belies your subject line. longship Apr 2013 #36
I object. And since there's no judge here to rule on the objection that's that ;) n/t Tx4obama Apr 2013 #39
Well played, sir. longship Apr 2013 #41
Assuming guilt, imprisonment until rehabilitation or death. Whichever occurs first. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #16
An example of rehabilitation 'gone wrong' on the link below Tx4obama Apr 2013 #42
You can't use that single case as evidence against the possibilities of rehabilitation. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #43
He should receive sarisataka Apr 2013 #17
wow. just.... wow. frylock Apr 2013 #18
I would like to see a trial first B2G Apr 2013 #19
The trial is not an afterthought. rug Apr 2013 #25
Even without a trial, he shot at police officers last night, 5 minutes before his capture. Travis_0004 Apr 2013 #47
Gitmo pettypace Apr 2013 #28
Sarcasm? Please tell me this is sarcasm. white_wolf Apr 2013 #54
declared guilty or innocent spanone Apr 2013 #31
A fair trial would include looking at the evidence Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #34
If found guilty... Chan790 Apr 2013 #38
What a bizarre question. defacto7 Apr 2013 #44
I think sending a 19 year-old boy who until recently was described by practically everyone as a Douglas Carpenter Apr 2013 #45
I'm surprised this one... StarryNite Apr 2013 #46
Bleeding hearts are like nails on a chalkboard sometimes. nt MOTRDemocrat Apr 2013 #48
Who will write the song for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev ... DreamGypsy Apr 2013 #49
He'll end up at ADX Florence duffyduff Apr 2013 #50
Tough call jessie04 Apr 2013 #51
..any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #52
But then there are some people who start out small, kenny blankenship Apr 2013 #55
A jury should decide guilt or innocence and morningfog Apr 2013 #53
Tentatively found guilty and given life imprisonment treestar Apr 2013 #56
I'm surprised how many people on DU are in favor of the death penalty. TimberValley Apr 2013 #57
Mass. doesnt have the death penalty. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #58
But it will be federal court, and Mass laws will not apply. El Fuego Apr 2013 #59
Will it? Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #62
I think that if the crime is terrorism it has to be federal El Fuego Apr 2013 #63
But, will Mass file it's own charges? Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #64
That's a good question El Fuego Apr 2013 #66
Federal public defenders have agreed to represent the suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings Tx4obama Apr 2013 #67
I think he's obviously guilty Quantess Apr 2013 #60
i hate the idea of a teen getting life but i see no alternative Liberal_in_LA Apr 2013 #61
death would be too easy marlakay Apr 2013 #65
More than likely he will end up at the Florence Supermax with the other terrorists. Tx4obama Apr 2013 #68

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
3. IF I were projecting an outcome I would have placed the options in the poll in a different order.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:03 AM
Apr 2013

I'm not projecting anything.

There will be a trial and there will be an outcome - I am only asking a poll question.



Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
2. He is innocent until proven guilty...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:01 AM
Apr 2013

I look forward to seeing the evidence presented and trust a jury of his peers with his fate.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
24. Keep in mind .... Innocent until proven guilty is how a judge and jury MUST view a suspect
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:20 AM
Apr 2013

People, however, have a different threshold ...

You are free to choose the 'innocent until proven guilty' stance, if you wish ...

A person may, however, decide upon guilt, depending on the quantity and quality of the facts known to be true.

I feel very strongly that OJ Simpson is guilty of murder .. Yet he was found not guilty by a court of law ...

Must I change my view to adhere to the court's decision ? ... or shall I have my own opinion ?

What of the numerous whites who, after the Civil War, were charged with crimes against blacks, but were acquitted, thanks to whatever biases were present in the jury or at the bench ... are they all innocent ? .... Every single one ?

If even ONE white was wrongly acquitted of criminal acts against blacks, then I reserve the right to judge for myself, outside of the purview of a judge or jury, as to whether a person is guilty or not ...

My choice ...

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
4. 45 year old version of the guy is much different
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:04 AM
Apr 2013

Here's something sure to piss off DUers: I not only oppose the death penalty. I oppose "without possibility of parole" for all but the most heinous cases (Manson types, established, irredeemable serial killers, and the like). European model: 20-25 years, then you get another chance.

Pour on your hatred. I don't care. I'm right about this.

Bicoastal

(12,645 posts)
20. I'm not going to hate, but your certainty annoys me.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:16 AM
Apr 2013

These crime-and-punishment arguments are never as cut and dry as all that.

My argument--THIS was a heinous crime, because it was indiscriminate. It doesn't matter if the guy is a different person at 45 years if the victims' family members are still feeling the same anguish 20-25 years later, and loss due to senseless crimes are some of the hardest things a person can endure.

20-25 years later that father will still be thinking "If only I had suggested viewing the parade on the other side of the street, my son could be alive today." Regardless of regret or rehabilitation, I don't want the killer's life to be on better footing than his victim's father, whose own life can never be fully healed.

 

markiv

(1,489 posts)
21. 'for all but the most heinous cases' I know many poeple who'd raise their hand to vote
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:16 AM
Apr 2013

that this was a heinous case, if they still had their arms

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
30. Very heinous
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:29 AM
Apr 2013

But not irredeemable.

I know my position is not in the mainstream on this.

Nevertheless. No parole punishments for 19 year olds are morally wrong, in my view, most of the time. To respond to somebody upthread, it's not a certainty what that "most" means, but I err on the side of charity.

JI7

(89,177 posts)
35. i think killing a child makes it irredeemable
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:33 AM
Apr 2013

and tearing off limbs of people

look at that family that lost the child. the mother suffers from damage to head, the young sister is losing a leg. all the while they will be dealing with the loss of a brother/son.

 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
5. What's good for McVeigh is good for him.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:04 AM
Apr 2013

Similar crime, similar punishment. Consistency is important.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
9. Oh my
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:05 AM
Apr 2013

McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 children under the age of 6.

It's a stretch to call this a similar crime. I do understand your argument. But at some point that difference in degree becomes a difference in kind.

 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
13. McVeigh was better at it.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:11 AM
Apr 2013

But don't doubt that if these two knuckleheads could have done "better" they would have.

Even if they had killed no one in this cowardly attack my position would be the same.

400 counts of attempted murder is good enough for me.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
7. Life without parole, and given to psychological researchers as a guinea pig.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:05 AM
Apr 2013

I'm a fan of figuring out what makes these kinds of killers tick - maybe this knowledge could prevent the next killings.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
27. I saw a documentary a few years back that said that no one ever 'studied' Jeffrey Dahmer
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:27 AM
Apr 2013

... to see what made him 'tick'.

So, I have a feeling no one is actually studying any of these heinous murderers.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
40. +1. Edit: Its even more important here than with Jeffery Dalmer.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:45 AM
Apr 2013

What was Dalmer doing? Making a temple to satan out of the body parts of gay lovers? That's really not something you see every day. But in this case, you have these people going on military style strikes against the general population again, and again, and again. There's one like every month. So discovering what the triggers are here, what the thinking - the chain of experiences - leading up to these events is here, is incredibly important. Because its only a matter of time before another one, unfortunately.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
11. Other: You know what's even better than justice for a murdered 8 year old?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:10 AM
Apr 2013

Intelligence which prevents the next 8 year old from getting killed.

Above all, I hope they come at him scientifically. Learn the exact motivations, learn how his mind works, learn about the radicalization process and the networks, learn about all of it. Set vengeance on the back burner, and learning on the front burner, all with the intent of saving that next kid.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
12. Assuming he is found guilty,
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:10 AM
Apr 2013

I would say life with the possibility of parole after he serves a significant period of time. He is a youthful offender, after all, and, although I'm not a Christian, I do believe in redemption.

longship

(40,416 posts)
36. Your poll belies your subject line.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:35 AM
Apr 2013

You are asking for people to render a verdict before the trial. Same thing, in practice.

I rest my case.

longship

(40,416 posts)
41. Well played, sir.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:53 AM
Apr 2013

But I still do not render verdicts before a trial. And since they'll not likely move the trial to the the Manistee National Forest, I'll likely not be on the jury panel.

I still object, respectfully, to asking people to render a verdict before a trial.


Thanks for your respectful reply.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
42. An example of rehabilitation 'gone wrong' on the link below
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:25 AM
Apr 2013

TAMPA, Fla. — Lawrence Singleton, who chopped off a teenage hitchhiker's forearms in California...
-snip-
Full article here: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/01/local/me-19534

I remember seeing Mary Vincent on Oprah years ago and was shocked that they let that man out of prison.
Tonight is the first time that I've read that after he was released prison he mutilated another woman.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
43. You can't use that single case as evidence against the possibilities of rehabilitation.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:27 AM
Apr 2013

In that I mean that that story alone does not condemn the practice.

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
17. He should receive
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:14 AM
Apr 2013

a verdict from a jury of his peers that is based on testimony and evidence.

If the verdict is guilty, he should be sentenced in accordance with the appropriate laws...

frylock

(34,825 posts)
18. wow. just.... wow.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:14 AM
Apr 2013

you need to look within yourself to understand why you want to see him murdered by the state rather than relying on an internet poll to rationalize your need to see him executed.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
19. I would like to see a trial first
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:15 AM
Apr 2013

Maybe then I can answer. I'm sure he's guilty. Just unsure what I think the punishment should be.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. The trial is not an afterthought.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:21 AM
Apr 2013

Without evidence presented in a court, a vote today must be not guilty.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
47. Even without a trial, he shot at police officers last night, 5 minutes before his capture.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 08:08 AM
Apr 2013

I would give him life in prision for that alone. Granted I wasn't there at the shootout, but that alone is easy enough to prove, before they even introduce evidence about the bombing.

pettypace

(744 posts)
28. Gitmo
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:29 AM
Apr 2013

Definitely should be sent overseas. Don't want to see months long trial like its 1995 all over again.

Plus he can enjoy the fun and sun with the brothers in Cuba.

Let it be a lesson for any future potential troublemakers that if you mess with the horns, you will get the bull and the bull you shall get. Huzzah for the shopkeep!

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
34. A fair trial would include looking at the evidence
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:33 AM
Apr 2013

it's for a jury to say whether he's found guilty or innocent; if he's found guilty? Life in prison with no possibility of parole.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
38. If found guilty...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:39 AM
Apr 2013

and other factors...at the very worst, life without parole in ADX Florence tucked between Kaczynski and Nichols.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
44. What a bizarre question.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:04 AM
Apr 2013

What bizarre possible answers to a bizarre question.

Assumptions have no realistic answer so I guess it's just a fun game.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
45. I think sending a 19 year-old boy who until recently was described by practically everyone as a
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:16 AM
Apr 2013

"really nice kid" to life without any chance of parole would not be fair or just. . In his particular case - it sounds like he was heavily influenced by his older brother - which is something that the propensity to do would likely decrease with age. I would dare bet that he will very soon and for the rest of his life wish with all his heart and would give anything to undo what he had done. I think he should be held for a long period of time and then released when there is a reasonable certainty that he will no longer pose any threat to society.

IN general I don't believe in life without the possibility of parole anymore than I believe in the death penalty. Given just how extreme it is to lock someone up in a prison - and given how absolutely terrible life in prison is - I believe that it would be immoral to use that penalty except in circumstances - when any release at any point would represent a real danger to society.

StarryNite

(9,364 posts)
46. I'm surprised this one...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:22 AM
Apr 2013

"Found not guilty, because he was good kid and only did bad because he was influenced by older brother" hasn't gotten a bunch of votes based on so many of the sympathy threads and comments for him. I just don't understand all the sympathy for this murderer.

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
49. Who will write the song for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev ...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:19 AM
Apr 2013

...and which song will it be??

I didn't respond to the poll. I think it best not to make judgment about anything when knowledge is still in flux and passions are inflamed. However, I understand the motivations, good or bad, about raising this type of question.

When I ponder these types of questions I often color my musings with relevant songs. They may not offer answers, but songwriters have to distill the concepts, emotions, and reasoning into a more clear liquor before swallowing. That helps.

I offer these two examples on the topic at hand.

Canadian David Francey wrote this about Timothy McVeigh:



And for the other alternate, there is Phil Ochs' song about Paut Crump:

Crump served 39 years in prison for killing a security guard in the armed robbery of a Chicago meatpacking plant in 1953. His four accomplices received prison sentences, but Crump was sentenced to die in the electric chair and had 15 execution dates before Louis Nizer took on his case and the sentence was commuted to 199 years by Gov. Otto Kerner. He was paroled in 1993.




911 inspired many thoughtful, powerful songs.

Perhaps the Boston Marathon Bombings, or whatever it is named in the history books, will result in songs for the victims, for the law enforcement professionals, for the people of Boston and Massachusetts, and maybe even for the fate of at least on perpetrator of the crime.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
50. He'll end up at ADX Florence
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:24 AM
Apr 2013

along with other celebrity killers like Zacarias Moussaoui, Eric Rudolph, Terry Nichols, and Ted Kaczynski.

That's a certainty.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
52. ..any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind,
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:08 PM
Apr 2013


"Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.

...

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."


John Donne

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
55. But then there are some people who start out small,
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:19 PM
Apr 2013

end up small, get smaller all along the way, and never want to be anything else.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
56. Tentatively found guilty and given life imprisonment
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:24 PM
Apr 2013

But the trial may reveal different factors. It's not likely he is really innocent as the evidence already mentioned seems pretty strong. As to the punishment, I may be more merciful after hearing his story, but at most life with parole possible. Unless he's mentally ill and it is proven.

 

TimberValley

(318 posts)
57. I'm surprised how many people on DU are in favor of the death penalty.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:39 PM
Apr 2013

I thought support for it would be much lower on this forum.

El Fuego

(6,502 posts)
63. I think that if the crime is terrorism it has to be federal
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:08 PM
Apr 2013

All the reports I've read say that federal terrorism charges will be filed.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
64. But, will Mass file it's own charges?
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:11 PM
Apr 2013

I'm not challenging your statements I just think that it's a bit blurry at the moment. And, if he is charged, stands trial, and is found guilty only in Mass he would not face the death penalty.

El Fuego

(6,502 posts)
66. That's a good question
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:39 PM
Apr 2013

I guess Mass could file its own charges for the crimes he committed under Mass state laws. Terrorism is only federal, and there will be separate charges for terrorism and for murder and the rest. But if there's a federal terrorism charge, the federal court has the option to exercise jurisdiction over the Mass state charges as well. In other words, if there is just one federal charge they can take over the whole thing from the state court.




Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
67. Federal public defenders have agreed to represent the suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:20 PM
Apr 2013

Public defenders will represent bomb suspect
Denise Lavoie,AP Legal Affairs Writer

BOSTON (AP) — Federal public defenders have agreed to represent the suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings.

Miriam Conrad, the federal defender for Massachusetts, says her office expects to represent Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (joh-KHAR' tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) after he is charged.

-snip-

http://live.boston.com/Event/Live_blog_Explosion_in_Copley_Square/73953301

marlakay

(11,370 posts)
65. death would be too easy
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:11 PM
Apr 2013

I want him to live his whole life thinking about what he did. Maybe if they let him writing a book with all profits going to victims talking about how he knows what he did is wrong.

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