Prayers For Boston Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Pour In After Arrest (WTF?)

[Tx4obama]

Prayers For Boston Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Pour In After Arrest

As 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the remaining man suspected in Monday's Boston Marathon bombings and Thursday night's shootout with police was arrested Friday, cheers erupted on Boston streets and on television broadcasts. It wasn't uncommon to see Boston residents give thanks to God, and similar sentiments echoed across social media.

But prayers of another kind also poured out online: those for Tsarnaev. The teenager had been on the run since he and his brother killed a Massachusetts Information of Technology police officer and wounded a Boston transit officer Thursday night, authorities said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was caught hiding in a boat behind a house in Watertown, west of Boston. His brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, was killed during Thursday's shootout.

"A wise young lady just reminded me that as we pray for everyone in Boston, we must pray for this 19 year old too...because we're Catholic," tweeted the Rev. Manny Alvarez, a priest in the Archdiocese of Miami, shortly after the arrest.

"We also need to remember to pray for the suspect, because we are Catholic. He is also a child of God, after all," said the editors of news website CatholicaOmnia on their Twitter account.

-snip-

Rest of article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/boston-bombing-suspect-prayers_n_3120145.html

I guess folks will be sending him money soon so he can buy snacks from the prison commissary.

This is really F***ed Up!!!

[graham4anything]

1. More conspiracy theorists and haters. It is sickening.

I wonder if those people even thought once of Officer Collier.

[me b zola]

81. Yeah, devout Catholics following the works of Jesus are conspiracy theorists & haters

[Initech]

106. You've never heard of Opus Dei, I take it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_dei

[me b zola]

114. The article in the OP quotes a Catholic praying for the suspect

~which is what the Catholic faith means to many people. The poster that I responded to insinuated that the reason that people would pray for the suspect is due to a conspiracy theory rather than the faith beliefs of those quoted in the article.

[choie]

2. It's not fucked up...

I think it shows them to understand the true meaning of what their religion professes to teach.. "forgive those who trespass against us..." or something to that effect. I am actually quite impressed by their generosity of spirit.

[randome]

3. Me, too.

[MaineLinePhilly]

10. Totally agree

From all that has been said so far, this kid idolized his brother and was probably easily influenced to take up such foolishness. I'm not forgiving him for his role because I'm just not that religious, but I can respect those who are offering their prayers for him as well.

[gateley]

12. +1

[smackd]

13. amen (nm)

[Gregorian]

17. It's all too rare. Inspring to some, confusing to others.

[Dorian Gray]

21. It does

I'm too imperfect to feel this way right now, but I respect a thousandfold people who remember his soul in their prayers. His soul needs the prayers more than the innocent souls do.

[chillfactor]

40. I also agree

as choie says. "it shows them to understand the true meaning of what their religion professes to teach."

[obnoxiousdrunk]

52. +1

[arthritisR_US]

60. I totally agree. n/t

[rug]

61. +

[Mariana]

64. Matthew 5:44

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

[sabrina 1]

70. I agree. We don't have to hate just because others do. Christ, who they follow, would have forgiven

him. In their religion, Christ forgave those who killed him before he died. Living with hate eats up the hater and does little to prevent more hatred. Forgiveness doesn't mean not expecting consequences, it just releases us from suffering from the desease of hatred that afflicted these two men. Look what it did to them and to their victims.

[idwiyo]

101. +1

[treestar]

131. I agree a sinner is seen as needing prayers for his soul

And he can still be saved by accepting Jesus as his savior, etc.

Though I admit I had the thought they could be Muslims being supportive of his actions. There are bound to be a few of those.

[MrsMatt]

139. I'm praying for him too. As I am the victims.

Cannot pray for his older brother - his life has ended and he has no way to redeem himself.

[sadbear]

4. As an atheist, I only wish more Christian were like this.

Some Christian consistency for a change -- turn the other cheek, love your enemies, pray for your prosecutors, and whatnot.

[Dorian Gray]

24. That's really nice to read

as someone who is a struggling Christian, those things are the most important. And the things that we forget most of the time.

[idwiyo]

102. Exactly.

[OneGrassRoot]

137. +1 n/t

[Lex]

5. Pray for the misguided, even criminals.

What's the problem with that? Many religions teach this.

[ChazII]

128. Thank you for some common sense

in this matter. I agree, what is wrong with praying even for those who have done wrong.

[BainsBane]

7. No one has an ill word to say about the kid

O'Donnell just had a bunch of people on who knew him and everyone said what a good person he was.

[CakeGrrl]

26. There are four families who can certainly vouch for "was". n/t

[BainsBane]

30. of course

There is no denying he committed a horrendous act, but from all accounts it's a big departure from his previous behavior.

[dkf]

8. That is how religion should be.

If it were so the world would be a better place.

[ananda]

9. We pray for all souls, lost or not.

Well, especially for the lost.

[BayouBengal07]

11. Perhaps you pray that he may see the error of his ways.

[Barack_America]

14. You are aware that Christians follow the teachings of Jesus, right?

I'm not Christian, but I kinda thought the whole point was that Jesus and his dad are pretty forgiving dudes.

[Poll_Blind]

23. They know. They're pretending they don't though. nt

PB

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. You mean like "I come not in peace, but with a sword"??? I come to set families apart.?

That Jesus, the one that all the Christians I talk to don't know about. That evil, hateful stuff he said is in their Bible but they haven't read it. Or they say, "Oh that's all Old Testament".

Well it's not. Jesus is recorded as saying LOTS of hateful things. Cussing out a fig tree is just a small part of it.



If they ever read their bibles, they'd run away from the religion it represents.

[reformist2]

37. Umm, that's not hateful at all.

[chillfactor]

48. as a Christian..I do read my Bible

and I attend a Bible study group that delves deeply into the Bible.....



it seems that your own hate overrules the love that the Bible teaches.....and that true Christians practice...and I am talking true Christians...not the teaparty kind....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

63. Sorry, logical fallacy you're invoking. No True Scotsman fallacy.

No True Scotsman would do that!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

"the love that the Bible teaches"???

What about the hate the Bible teaches? It is NOT my hate. It's in YOUR Bible. I just pointed it out. You should know YOUR Bible. I know it better than most Christians. That's pretty sad.
I don't use a bunch of illiterate, uneducated Bronze Age goatherders for moral guides.

I never see any Christian groups saying "Let's just throw out the hateful stuff Jesus taught". Christians seem to not know that the hateful scriptures exist.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. Look, I'm not a person of religion, but I am a person of literature.

When a character who is never portrayed as using a weapon of any kind says 'I come with a sword' it is clearly metaphorical. He had no actual sword. This is a hint.
Your argument is like saying John Lennon was a proponent of violence because he said 'Happiness is a warm gun.' Context really, really matters.
You read that literature as poorly as do the fundies, and for some of the same reasons. Lost of loaded emotions when considering the text.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

91. Oh it's a metaphor.

Are ALL THESE statements allegedly said by Jesus metaphors? Please read them and tell me.

Matthew


1150.Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

1151.Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

1152.Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

1153.Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

1154.Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

1155."The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

1156.Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

1157.Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

1158.Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

1159.Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

1160.Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

1161.Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

1162.Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

1163.Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

1164.Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

1165."Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13

1166.Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

1167.In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

1168."And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

1169.God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

1170."Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

1171.In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14

1172.The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).

Or maybe not. Jesus was talking about things he knew nothing about (36). (See Mark 13:32.) 24:3-51


1173.Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

1174.God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

1175.The parable of the cruel and unjust master
The kingdom of heaven is like a rich man who distributed his wealth to his servants while he traveled. He gave five talents (a talent was a unit of money, worth about 20 years of a worker's wages) to one servant, two to another, and one to a third. When he returned, the servant with five talents had made five more, the servant with two made two more, but the servant with one talent only had the talent his master entrusted to him. The master rewarded the servants that invested his money (without his permission -- what would have happened if the stock market went down during their master's travels?) and took the talent from the single-talent servant and gave it to the one with ten talents. "For unto every one that hath shall be given .. but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." Then the cruel and unjust master cast the servant who carefully protected his master's talent into the "outer darkness: [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:14-30

1176.The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

1177.Jesus judges the nations. 25:31-46

1178.Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

1179.Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Mark


1180.Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

1181.Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

1182.Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

1183.Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20: 9, Dt 21:18-21) 7: 9-10

1184.Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

1185.God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

1186.Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

1187.Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16


Luke


1188.Zechariah asks the angel Gabriel how his wife Elizabeth could become pregnant, since she is "stricken with years." Gabriel makes him "dumb" just for asking. 1:20

1189.Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3: 9

1190.John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

1191.Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

1192.Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

1193.Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

1194.Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

1195."Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

1196.According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

1197.In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

1198. Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

1199.Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

1200.In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

1201.Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20

John


1202.Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

1203."God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

1204.People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

1205.The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

1206.Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

1207.Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

1208.Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." (They are called Protestants nowadays.) 6:53-66


====================

[MFrohike]

108. Get a grip

1. You seem really obsessed with the pigs. I'm not sure what to make of that.

2. Your example when Jesus asks the Pharisees about disobedient children is completely absurd. It's clearly a rebuke for hypocrisy. He's clearly pointing out their own hypocrisy in not following the law to letter, but you seem to be obsessed with the idea that it's something more. Honestly, all I can surmise from your obsession with this is that either you lack basic reading comprehension skills or you are being deliberately dense. If it's deliberate denseness, you really should stop. It just undermines your arguments.

3. The line about not coming in peace, but with a sword is another example of poor reading comprehension or deliberate denseness. The casual reader, passingly familiar with the story of Jesus, should be able to see this as a metaphor. The message is that He's there to undermine and change the existing order, not patch up the status quo.

I wrote this in about 5 minutes. If I took 2 hours to parse your creative paraphrasing, I'm sure I could show many more problems with your line of argument. I'd suggest actually posting the quotation, instead of a bad paraphrase, and using that, in context, for the basis of your argument. It probably won't work, but it has to be better than this dishonest charade.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

110. So how are you gonna criticize direct quotes?

So far you haven't shown anything. I made no editorial comment.

Jesus came to set families apart. And gives examples of various relationships. I'd say that is a pretty clear example of someone who hates families.

[MFrohike]

121. Look up the word paraphrase

The definition should be familiar as your long post was an example of it.

Jesus hated families? Pure comedy. Seriously, either work on your reading comprehension or quit playing the fool.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

122. Direct quotes. Pretty straightforward hatred of families.

What's wrong with your reading comprehension???
I'm not paraphrasing anything.

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

10:38 He that taketh not his cross and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

=================

[MFrohike]

123. Do you own a hat with bells?

If not, you should definitely consider getting one.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

125. what do you not understand about direct quotes??

You seem to lack understanding of plain English.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

140. Your score is zero.

First you tried the No True Scotsman fallacy. Then you engaged in an ad hominem attack, which is name calling and not relevant to the discussion.

What is the plain meaning of those words???

I have not paraphrased anything.

What it looks like as a paraphrase:

Jesus says his purpose is to split up families. Abandon your family and follow him or you are not worthy.

What meaning do you ascribe to those direct quotes?

"Jesus hates families" is what it looks like to me.

You are a Christian and have never read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John???

[MFrohike]

141. ?

1. I keep seeing this no true scotsman thing on this board. I don't know what it is, but the way it gets used, I assume it's what people trot out when all else fails. In the few years I've read this board, more like most of a decade, I've seen the word fallacy bandied about quite a bit and it always seems to be a means of stifling debate rather than actually a constructive answer.

2. When you put a few words in quotation marks and then add your own commentary, you are paraphrasing. Tough break, but that's life.

3. I never claimed to be a Christian, a Buddhist, or worshiper of Apollo. I see no value in trotting out my religious beliefs, or possible lack thereof, in order to point out that you did a shoddy job of proving your point. What I believe is immaterial when I disagree with you based on poor paraphrasing and an unwillingness to read things in context as opposed to jumping to the most extreme conclusion. I realize that this is not a common stance these days, but I do things my own way.

4. The ad hominem bit is funny. I said you either had poor reading comprehension skills, which is not an attack on your character, or you were deliberately playing the fool in order to put across your point, which is a comment on behavior not character. An ad hominem attack would be an irrelevant attack on your character, not on your readily observed actions. When I suggested you buy a hat with bells, that was a humorous play on my comment that you are steadfastly committed to playing the fool on this issue. I don't really see that as an attack on your character, but I could be wrong. Nevertheless, even if the hat thing could be construed as an attack on your character, it was still a relevant comment based upon your own posts.

Anyway, thanks for the laughs. It's been a hoot.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

142. You have said NOTHING that answers my question or refutes what I said.

You don't understand plain English. You don't understand logic and fallacies either.

That is your responsibility, not mine. I suggest you read about what a fallacy is, and what the No True Scotsman fallacy is.

from www.logicalfallacies.info

What is a Logical Fallacy?

A logical fallacy is, roughly speaking, an error of reasoning. When someone adopts a position, or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position, based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a fallacy. I say “roughly speaking” because this definition has a few problems, the most important of which are outlined below. Some logical fallacies are more common than others, and so have been named and defined. When people speak of logical fallacies they often mean to refer to this collection of well-known errors of reasoning, rather than to fallacies in the broader, more technical sense given above.


http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/
No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

Try again. Your score so far is still zero. You have said nothing that logically refutes my point.

Jesus hates families. It's pretty simple.

[MFrohike]

143. I was wrong

It could be both poor reading comprehension AND a determination to play the fool. I'll have to work on broadening the scope of my observations.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. Answer my simple questions or quit wasting my time.

You do not understand English.

[Apophis]

147. I learned reading comprehension in 3rd grade.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

112. Do they put sugar on their porridge? N.T.

[Union Scribe]

50. Oh brother, another bigot for iggie. nt

[MellowDem]

59. Nothing bigoted about criticizing belief systems nt

[sarisataka]

67. Let's ask Cinderella if the shoe fits

World English Dictionary
bigot (ˈbɪɡət)

— n
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

Do we have criticism or intolerance

[MellowDem]

75. We have criticism...

very specific, relevant criticism of the Bible, the basis of the belief system. Think of it like criticizing a book on capitalism. Nothing about the criticism said the poster was intolerant about any ideas other than their own (have a closed mind in which they will never change their minds no matter what). That requires dogmatism, which religious faiths have in spades as part of their belief system. The religious are used to their ideas being more protected than other ideas, it's a privilge they have, so any criticism is viewed as akin to bigotry to many of them, but this is just their privilege showing.

[sarisataka]

85. I will not say you are wrong

nor concede you are right about the post

If they ever read their bibles, they'd run away from the religion it represents.

Is really treading the line

Interesting that you use the term dogmatism as it is a synonym for bigotry. There are religions dogmatism is an apt description of the teachings and/or practices.

If it is true that religions have a privileged belief that criticism is akin to bigotry, it is also true that non religious often believe their bigotry is simple criticism

[MellowDem]

92. I think the way the term "bigot" is actually used...

colloquially means that it involves some sort of irrational intolerance of opionons, not just "intolerance", which would make us all bigots for all sorts of things, like conservatism, or flat tax proposals, or racism, etc. etc. Also, that opinions are based on irrational premises (like, black skin means you are genetically inferior). Saying you don't prefer the Bible because of x,y, and z in the Bible that goes against your preferences (which are deemed rational) is not bigoted. Dogmatism is not rational. I don't use it as a synonym for bigotry, I just point out that it requires irrational intolerance, and dogmatism provides that.

Considering many polls have shown that the majority of Christians never read the entire Bible, the presumption the author states is not based on an irrational premise. Also, considering that the vast majority of Christians oppose many things in the Bible, indeed, many things the God of the Old Testament does, it's not an irrational assumption to say that if they do actually read the Bible and see that it conflicts with their balues, they would realize their cognitive dissonance and resolve it by ditching religion.

Lots of atheists (including myself) become so specifically through this process (reading it on our own, not through apologetic indoctrination, and reading ALL of it). I was indoctrinated into religion as a child and it was only when I read the Bible myself that I started questioning things.

Of course, the poster could be wrong in his assumptions, but they aren't based on irrational or hateful premises. Really, they're based on optimistic assumptions that Christians have good morals and will not be intellectually dishonest.

[sarisataka]

99. One key issue with Christianity

and many other religions is that they are based on a faith, which by definition is unprovable in this context. OTH the atheist position is equally unprovable as a negative cannot be positively proven.

The core humanist teachings of Jesus are a two sentence summary of liberalism- treat others as you wish to be treated and love your neighbor as you do yourself. These principles are repeated throughout the years by many religious leaders, teachings and secular philosophers.

As liberals we strive to this ideal, considering it just and fair whether it is found in the words of the Son of God, sensationalized writings loosely based on the life of a poor carpenter of two thousand years past, dissertations of enlightened philosophy or arrived at through learning, experience and self reflection. All of us will at some time fail to live up to the ideal regardless of what we believe the origin is. All but the best people have some bigotry toward those who speak of a different source as being their motivator. I believe this is human nature as there is that tiny corner of our mind where doubt lies and asks us 'what if I am wrong and the other person is right'. We can become quite petulant listening to that voice.

I have read ~90% of the Bible. My take is that it must be considered allegory most than a literal historical text. For example- Creation. There was only one witness to the Judea-Christian creation mythology, God. The is no record anywhere in the Bible of God sitting down with Adam and Eve or any other character in the Bible. One must then question how did humans obtain this transcript of God creating the world? Science gives us a good answer and if you do not take the seven day story as being literal there is not much conflict between the two. In a similar vein, when reading text that is hateful in the middle of teachings about love and forgiveness one must step away from the literal mode. If you accept God given sentience and free will, these are the points the reader is expected to use these gifts. Question the wording and look for deeper meaning. Keep the core teaching in mind and the answer will come to you.
IMO fundamentalist, literal interpretation of the Bible is an insult to God. (S)He expects more of us.

[MellowDem]

100. Faith is irrational...

Atheism requires no faith. It is simply a lack of belief in god/gods. There are some atheists who go a step further and say they positively believe there is no "god", but this isn't necessarily faith based, depending on how you define god. For example, the Christian god has plenty of evidence that he doesn't exist, based on the specific claims of the Bible being shown to be false. Believing that no "god" of any sort exists might be bordering on faith-based, considering how vague and meaningless the term "god" can be, but plenty of atheists don't believe this; they are agnostics.

So are many (most) religious people, at least in the US, from what I've seen (agnostics that is).

I just don't feel the word bigotry, which is pretty loaded, is the proper term to use for criticizing ideas and belief systems. I see nothing wrong with relevant, rationally based criticism of them, be they religion or not.

[FiveGoodMen]

146. If someone believes the story of Cinderella actually happened ...

... and I say it didn't ...

... does that make me a bigot?

[Apophis]

148. Oh snap!

[Blue_In_AK]

138. I agree.

From Matthew, Chapter 5:

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[sarisataka]

15. This is why we are better than terrorists

we do not let hate consume us. We can seek justice without taking revenge.


As an aside, Huffpo should look up what MIT stands for...

[choie]

33. well, at least some of us do not let hate consume us.

[chillfactor]

49. amen

[sarisataka]

54. *Sigh* You are correct

amazing how many liberals have flexible principles.

People of faith get castigated as hypocrites if they fail to live up to their ideal and ridiculed if they exercise one of their highest principles

[Fumesucker]

103. That's true, but it's not usually by the same people

As an atheist who was carefully raised Christian I applaud those Christians who genuinely try to understand and practice the precepts that are put forth in the Gospels.

[sarisataka]

104. Long ago I decided

to respect all religions. Hedging my bets in case I am wrong. Having known people from all of the major religions, along with many Wiccans, agnostics and atheists equally as good, I also respect those who are true to their beliefs.

I have low tolerance for hypocrites

[DinahMoeHum]

16. We need him alive so that we can all learn why someone with such

a promising life and career turned to the dark side and pissed all that down the toilet.

So I will say a prayer for his physical recovery, and for his family, who are going through their own hell right now.

[frylock]

18. guess you're just not going to be satisfied until you exact that pound of flesh

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. I don't see any problem in it

He's obviously a very damaged young man.

He will be in custody for the remainder of his life, but we can hope and pray that he gains some redemption therewith, no? That's wrong? That's liberal in my view. Yes, he'll never see the light of day again. But why can't he become a wise and sensitive person who helps others? Who learns and grows? Who becomes to the limit of his becoming?

That's wrong? The wish for good for this young man?

Fine, then I'm wrong. But that's how my Mama raised me. Howsoever you treat the least of these, my brothers. It's not a slogan. It's an ethic.

[Dorian Gray]

34. It's true and it's beautiful....

what he and his brother perpetrated was true evil and ugliness. But to hope for his true redemption and pray for that? It's what life and humanity are about.

[mentalsolstice]

62. +1

[arcane1]

20. If I were a Christian, I would pray for Jesus to forgive him, and welcome his soul into Heaven

I am not a Christian, but I understand the sentiment.

[octothorpe]

22. Doesn't look like anyone is supporting him or his actions...

Let'e see if any "Free Dzhokhar Tsarnaev" posts or websites start popping up. At that point I'll hope on the disgust train.

[LisaL]

29. Just give it a few days.

[Tx4obama]

135. It has started...

#FreeJahar Campaign Shows Social Media Support for Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-kanalley/free-jahar-social-media-dzhokhar-tsarnaev_b_3134712.html

[RZM]

25. You've never heard of prayers for bad people?

It's pretty common.

[ecstatic]

28. I don't have a problem with that part, but I wonder if they show the same level of

compassion to all suspected killers; and if not, why?

[nobodyspecial]

35. Yes, they do.

And you will often find them in the front lines against the death penalty.

[sabrina 1]

82. Yes, they do. It's a liberal concept, justice, not revenge. I saw another thread here today asking

how we stop the hatred on 'hate radio'. We can't, but we don't have to participate in it. Christ, Gandhi and many other religious leaders did not believe in hating no matter how evil the criminal. Praying for the souls of all criminals is true Christianity.

Then we have the 'Christian Right' who think that killing, the death penalty, torture etc are perfectly 'Christian'. For years we have been arguing that these people are not Christian. Now we see an example of true Christians and we have people here, only a few thankfully, who appear to prefer the Pat Robertson 'christians'. I am impressed by people who are strong enough to be able to pray for their enemies. It's weak to react emotionally to evil demanding more hatred, rather than being like Gandhi eg, who had the strength to control those weak emotions.

[nobodyspecial]

31. Prayers for him do not mean you do not prosecute him

or administer justice. Just be forewarned, Catholics are against the death penalty as well. Even though they are vocal against abortion, at least they are consistent in their beliefs. And in Boston, there are tons of Democratic Catholics so you will likely see more of this sentiment in the coming days.

Eye for an eye...

What I think is really fucked up is your apparent bloodlust.

[redStateBlueHeart]

32. I'm not religious, but I'm praying for him to stay alive

so we can get some answers about all of this.

[Tx4obama]

38. I agree with you on that. Answers and justice. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. No it's not fucked up

It's called humanity. And I hope his interrogators remember that as well.

[veganlush]

39. I'm praying for

that child-killers slow, painful death

[flamingdem]

46. I'm not sure because it seems like a case of being influenced by an evil family member

so it makes me feel ambivilent. If he is not useful via interrogation I might change my mind. Then it's his stuff too and who cares about his fate.

[veganlush]

77. he killed that eight year old boy

[flamingdem]

80. That's huge especially as now we know he chose the placement of the bomb

and had eye contact with the victims. Let's just hope that he will give up a good amount of information and take it from there.

[veganlush]

86. I was nineteen once

I would never have thought about destroying people like that eight year old boy who was at a foot race cheering on his father. The child-killer is shit. throw it out.

[veganlush]

88. when i pick up after my dog outside...

I could take one more whiff i guess, before i throw it away, but i don't want to...I don't care what the child-killer has to say, i really don't want to know anything, don't want that stench, don't want to give it the satisfaction of thinking maybe someone cares about it's whiney existence and why it had to put that little kid in his grave, and put his family through that. Throw that shit away and move on. I'm sorry that the child-killer is now going to get a national audience to hear his warped bleatings.

[chillfactor]

55. I was going to respond to your post

but it is useless against such hate...

[CakeGrrl]

41. Odd to me, but it happens.

If my son/daughter/brother was in the morgue tonight courtesy of this individual, I doubt I'd be feeling so charitable. To each their own.

[Posteritatis]

42. Talk about missing the point for the sake of outrage. (nt)

[MrSlayer]

43. That is actually exactly what the Christ character would do.

Love your enemies and all that rot. The Christ character is a really nice guy.

[Mariana]

72. He told his followers to do it, too.

There's no ambivalence in Matthew 5:44. Jesus was very clear about his expectations in this area.

[MrSlayer]

83. Yes, a real Christian would pray for this dude.

And forgive him, visit him in prison and all that. They would not be calling for his torture and execution.

[flamingdem]

44. It's the redemption schtick

Doesn't hurt that the guy is cute, had a nasty older bad influencing brother, and good reports from his friends and barely passed through puberty. One doesn't want to condemn when there might be the hope that one soul could be saved (if you think like that I am not sure about redemption.. ).

[Amonester]

45. I doubt they will send him money other than their taxes

They will address it to the Vatican instead (or elsewhere).

Personally, if praying makes them happy, I don't have a dent against it, unless they become inconsistent (as too many of them do, too often).

[RedCappedBandit]

47. This atheist is pretty sure that's what "Jesus" would have wanted..

[PD Turk]

51. Matthew 5:44

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (NIV)

[LittleBlue]

53. Woah, hold on buddy

This is an ancient Catholic sentiment, to pray even for your enemies.

It isn't fucked up at all.

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. I suppose to people who have never been exposed to the fundamental principles of Christian belief

Last edited Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)

- the idea of praying for the bad guy - the wicked, the unlovable and the one for whom the world would no longer have any patience for - would sound almost bizarre. But it is one of the basic principles of Christianity. I think it is sad that a 19-year-old boy who everyone who knew him describes as a really nice kid - would get involved in something like this - Thus not only ending other peoples' lives but ruining his own and until recently promising life.

[Zorra]

57. Whatever works. He's going to be imprisoned for the rest of his life.

When this hits home for him, when the hard, cold, irrevocable truth is fully apparent to him, he's going to be crushed beyond comprehension, and he's gonna melt down like the wicked witch of the west, except in long term slow motion.

He's going to suffer unbearable regret every day of his life as his recognition of the enormity of the evil he did to others and himself becomes hardwired into his brain.

And during this time, if he's lucky, he'll grow a heart.

[Butterbean]

58. It is supposed to be one of the core beliefs of Christianity.

Christ forgave the people who crucified him as he was dying on the cross.

It is something easily said but not easily done. I can say here and now that I can pray for him, but it wasn't my 8 year old child that was murdered, either, and I wasn't hit by flying shrapnel I still have all of my limbs.

[nolabear]

65. I'm glad. It's the way Christianity should be. Doesn't mean what he did is okay.

IMO prayer is most helpful to the one who does it. To be able to say "Help me to understand and him to change" would be desirable. It's not the same as supporting his act or thought.

[kenny blankenship]

66. I think it's very human to recognize that a young life has been destroyed here

along with the perfectly innocent lives of Martin Richard, and Lingzi Lu and Krystie Campbell. We all grow up in families and can recognize the elder brother younger brother dynamics at work in this story. I have no trouble believing that if not for his bitter, wife beating asshole older brother, who apparently decided to go terrorist, first "over there" and then "over here", 19 year old Joker or whatever his name is, probably never would have done something like what he's accused of. But he did, and there's not much we can do to bend the rules for him, even if we feel a little bit sorry for him. Is it not pitiable to see someone ambushed by an inescapable nightmare destiny before even reaching the age of twenty? So while Boston and the rest of the country feels relief and elation that he has been caught, we can also feel the living death he now faces as a tragic loss. For whatever reasons, the older Tamerlan was a bitter lost man who treated his pain with gnawing hatred and desires for revenge - for what insults and injuries we can only guess. He used his authority as older brother - a much older brother - to drag his younger brother down into hell with him. What kind of brother would lead his brother -seven years his junior - along into a heinous crime for which they would certainly be caught and face the severest imaginable punishment? (and as immigrants from the Central Asian sphere of the Russian empire, you better believe they can imagine horrific punishments, ones that wouldn't even occur to Americans.) He denied his brother any chance of happiness here in their new country. And for whatever reason, we think of young people differently and refuse to write them off as absolutely unredeemable in terms like I used above.

[Barack_America]

71. This is a fantastic post.

You speak for me.

[marions ghost]

130. it's not a logical distinction

the younger was led but he is just as sick as the bitter older one. You can place more blame on the older brother but the younger is just as pathological. I'm not going to villainize the older more than the younger. They are both mass murderers in cold blood. No getting around it.

The whole thing is a tragedy. If I pray any prayers it's for everyone involved, including the witnesses who were not physically harmed.
What does it do to a child (or any sensitive person) to see this?

[a la izquierda]

133. This...

[MellowDem]

68. The concept of prayer is "fucked up" IMHO

but the concept of forgiving those who do bad things to you? Not so much. Course, praying for the guy doesn't equal forgiveness.

Sure, the intentions are (sometimes) good-intentioned, but it's all based on the same flawed foundation of religious thinking and poor logic that can lead to so much harm.

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. here are the results from the Huffington Post survey on that question

Quick Poll

Will you pray for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?



Yes, everyone needs prayer



52.11%



No, he doesn't deserve my prayer



21.13%



No, I don't pray



26.76%


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/boston-bombing-suspect-prayers_n_3120145.html

These results give me a little more hope for humanity..

[Ecumenist]

73. It's not f$cked up, Tx. Although I understand the outrage, it's the most Basic of most faiths

Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism & despite the twisting of the faith, ISLAM. Because I happen to be Christian, I understand and will struggle to pray for my enemies. It's not always successful but I had a Grandma Ewey that taught me that if I couldn't pray or someone, then PRAY to be able to reach the point when I CAN pray for that person.

This is what Christianity is all about.

[Apophis]

76. Yeah, it's really f'ed up Christians act like Christians.

Can't have that!



I'm impressed with this and I'm an atheist.

[deaniac21]

78. The guy even backed over his own brother....

[HiPointDem]

98. or so you were told...

[MOTRDemocrat]

79. WTF, indeed... I hate contrarians in situations like this.

Showing all kinds of concerns for the perp while some of their victims are still in freshly dug graves.

[Tx4obama]

84. And some of the victims have not even been buried yet. n/t

[StarryNite]

93. And some have not been fitted with their prosthetic limbs.

[Mariana]

89. They're showing concern for their own eternal souls.

Jesus told his followers to pray for their enemies. When you worship a diety who sends people to be tortured for eternity, it's probably a good idea to do what he says, whether you like it or not.

[kimsterdemster]

87. take the high road...nt

we're better than them in this way

USA

[nadine_mn]

90. Actually I don't think its fucked up. I really feel sorry for the kid

I cannot imagine how scared and alone he must have felt once his brother died and he was on his own.



Don't get me wrong - what he and his brother did was horrible and I deeply feel for the victims and their families.

I am not even a deeply religious person - but I do believe in a greater goodness that surrounds all of us.

[StarryNite]

94. I'm sure his fear was nothing compared

to the fear of those who had their legs blown off by him and his brother.

[nadine_mn]

97. I know - and I never said it was

I think he was heavily influenced by his brother and may not have realized the full implications of what was happening until it was too late. Or he could have been an active participant who knew exactly what he was doing.

I have already said my heart goes out to the families and the victims. But something went very wrong here and hating doesn't make it better.

I have said in other posts - if it was my loved one that was killed or injured I would be so pissed and would want to kill him myself. But that would make me no better.

[StarryNite]

105. I wonder how the victim's families

would feel if they saw all this outpouring of sympathy for the bombers.

[nadine_mn]

107. Here's the thing..I have compassion for everyone

I just do. I will never be one who dances on graves or calls for the death of someone ...no matter how awful of a crime they have committed. I will never be one who wants someone tortured...not even those who have tortured others.

This doesn't mean I condone their actions, or that I have less sympathy for the victims and their families. I have worked as a victim advocate for over a decade...I get the very real consequences and emotions involved.

I can be angry and hate the actions and want justice done AND still feel badly that something went so wrong to cause a person to commit these heinous acts. In the end they are still human beings and when we lose sight of that we lose our own humanity.

I am sorry but I cannot be that person who hates.

[StarryNite]

109. You have nothing to apologize for.

Those are your feelings and I respect that. I don't have the same feelings though. I'm tired of so many people making excuses for him. I think not holding people accountable for what they do enables not only them but others. By all accounts he was not mentally retarded. He had lots of friends. People liked him. Yet he chose to maim and murder people. And it was planned. It wasn't just a spur of the moment thing. I feel very sorry for his victims and the people who love them. I feel sorry for the country as a whole. But I don't feel sorry for him. And if he is laying in the hospital feeling pain, I don't feel sorry about that either because he brought it on himself by his own deliberate actions to kill and harm others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. I will add something here which you have not thought out

It was something very wise a homicide detective told me decades ago, after we went to a mass shooting where we had kids among the victims. It's something he learned after years of police work.

Hating the perpetrator helps none, it's internalized, and hurts the hater in the end. It will eat you inside.

And trust me, we transported one of the shooters in critical condition...he told me those words outside the trauma unit as the docs worked to keep that human being alive.

I am sure that homicide detective has seen far more horrors than you could ever imagine.

He also was, which I am not, a very religious man. He loved to quote psalms as he worked.

I also learned that my humanity is far more important. So yes, I have empathy for both the injured, the perpetrators, and their family...it's not because of them. It's very selfish, it's about me.

And I hope the suspect gets a top notch defense team...that is about us as a nation.

[Edim]

120. I think you have more sympathy for the victims if you don't hate. nt

[KittyWampus]

117. Boston is a pretty liberal town. i imagine some of them might actually be able to channel compassion

[Arugula Latte]

95. So people "gave thanks to God" that he was taken ....

never, of course, questioning why their omnipotent deity would allow or cause such carnage in the first place ...

[Phillip McCleod]

115. god's pretty lucky that way..

when something good happens, it's 'thank god!' when something bad happens, it's 'ungodly'.

in the boston bomber's case though, i think some intercessionary prayer is a good idea, as long as they *tell* him they're praying for him. in that situation, it's been shown to actually have a negative impact on the person being prayed for, and slowing down the healing process. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer#The_STEP_project

i don't know about you, but if that's the way it works, i hope *all* the public intercessionary prayers go to the murderer and not his victims. they shouldn't be asked to heal slower than their attacker.

[Arugula Latte]

116. In that case I will pray for Dick Cheney, Pat Robertson and Ted Nugent as well.

[Phillip McCleod]

129. heeeheeeheee you devil you!

..took a while to notice this in 'my posts' but that's classic!

[treestar]

132. They could always see the light eventually

Imagine Cheney discovering the love of Jesus and apologizing for his actions. Not likely, but remotely possible. So you need to pray for him!

[KittyWampus]

118. not everyone believes in "god" as a puppet master.

[Arugula Latte]

119. True, but it is incredibly common to hear people express the sentiment that

"God saved them" from some horror or other. It implies that the deity has power to pick and choose who lives unscathed, who gets maimed, and who dies. It also implies, whether they realize it or not, that they feel special because the deity picked them to save, while those other schmucks who got injured or killed weren't worthy of the deity's favor.

A friend of mine was talking about a car accident recently where the brakes went out, but she and her son lived. She said her mother thought they survived due to divine intervention. I couldn't resist asking "But why does your mother think god let it happen in the first place?" Then I said, "Sorry, I'm an asshole when it comes to religion." She just laughed, because she doesn't buy it either.

[Live and Learn]

96. Think I will say a prayer for you while I am at it. nt

[zeeland]

111. I'm reminded of the scene in Shawshank Redemption

when as an old man Morgan Freedman sits before the parol board
And tells them he wishes he could shake some sense into the foolish young man
he once was. He no longer knew that foolish kid and he didn't
give a damn anymore about being free.

There's a lot more to this story we will never know. For all those wanting
revenge, you will get it and he will live a miserable, lonely, isolated life
enough to satisfy anyone's standards.

[BellaLuna]

124. Praying for someone does not mean they do not have to face justice for their crimes

Separating those things isn't that hard really.

[trackfan]

126. The suspect is getting an especial pass from some usually "hang-em-high"

law and order types because he is attractive. This is human nature. I can't really pass judgment either way. Ideally, ugly people and good looking people would get the same treatment; yet I even look at the guy more sympathetically than I would if he looked like a total brute. I hold both thoughts in my head: "punish him"; and, "oh, that poor kid."

[ChazII]

127. Post #124 says it quite eloquently.

Like many others that I know, we are praying for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and for the reason stated in that post.

[a la izquierda]

134. Heaven forbid people pray for lost souls.

[Tx4obama]

136. #FreeJahar Campaign Shows Social Media Support for Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

#FreeJahar Campaign Shows Social Media Support for Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

Not everyone believes Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a terrorist.

Despite seemingly overwhelming evidence pointing toward his involvement in the Boston Marathon attack a week ago, there is a group of people who know Tsarnaev who are remaining loyal to the 19-year-old. The Internet has expanded that group into those who don't Tsarnaev but are nonetheless supportive, whether sympathetic or inspired by other messages.

-snip-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-kanalley/free-jahar-social-media-dzhokhar-tsarnaev_b_3134712.html

Like I said before: WTF!