Is anyone else bothered by the military involvement in the manhunt?

[Earth_First]

I thought a lot about this today, and I'm still bothered by this.

Each community hosts within their law enforcement agencies a SWAT team that has since 9/11 seen their armaments become almost militaristic on their own. These special agencies train long and hard to deal with special emergencies such as these, to precision 'military-like' accuracy. There are enough communities in the suburb-rich area of Boston to pull together enough 'SWAT' expertise without having to rely on the military.

So I really do not see how having the military involved does anything to boost the readiness of the SWAT teams by having them participate in the manhunt.

It's a slippery slope that I get an uncomfortable feeling from; I have a feeling that I'm not alone in this feeling either.

Thoughts...?

[Skittles]

1. no

[zappaman]

2. No. n/t

[Still Sensible]

3. No. n/t

[randome]

4. Maybe you'd prefer this?

[Earth_First]

8. Right, because that is exactly what I am suggesting...

I suggest maybe re-reading my OP where it explains that SWAT is specially trained to deal with these situations.

So why involve the military?

[actslikeacarrot]

40. not enough SWAT to handle the manhunt. n/t

[Marrah_G]

73. they can guard intersections to free up actual police.

[JaneyVee]

5. We should be invading Czechoslovakia by now.

[Bobbie Jo]

6. No. nt

[JI7]

7. no

[WilliamPitt]

9. I bent my Wookie.

[Earth_First]

15. William, I know that you are a man of reason...

...and I also know that you are affected by this in a VERY personal way.

I'm shocked that you would respond this way.

[WilliamPitt]

23. I just made a personal decision

to respond to all 45,332,987 "Martial Law Civil Liberties" questions with quotes by Ralph from the Simpsons from now on. It's the only way I can remain sane.

If you want more enlightened discussion, look fort all the other places I have discuss this on this board.

In the meantime, it's Ralph.

P.S. If my offering snarky replies on DU "shocks" you, I think you might need to get out more.

P.P.S. It's the National Guard, not federal troops.

P.P.P.S. My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[Earth_First]

35. No, not offended in the least

...and I caught the reference

I appologize if this has been discussed ad naseum throughout the day, I myself have been away at work and through an atttempt to process the days' events, this is the first thought that I felt compelled to discuss with others...

I don't have a lot of individuals who care to discuss current events with, so DU becomes my outlet for such things.

[WilliamPitt]

47. You choo choo choose me?

Sorry again. Just flying on vapor right now.

[Orrex]

52. I'd like to ask a serious question about that

P.P.P.S. My cat's breath smells like cat food.

I have a distinct, though not necessarily accurate, memory of Ralph originally delivering the line as "My cat's breath smells like cat litter."

Am I remembering it incorrectly? Or was it changed after the original airing?


This is important, dammit!

[WilliamPitt]

56. Food.

Definitely.

[Orrex]

79. Damn

Another dream shattered.

[Hekate]

54. Will: I have friends and relatives in Boston

to you

My sister's grown kids emailed her to let her know they were okay right after the Marathon. As of now, I just assume they are all on lockdown with the rest of the city (or whatever is happening as of now).

My hairdresser of 25+ years, wife of my son's elementary school teacher, is there right now visiting their son, DIL, and baby. I stopped by the shop yesterday to ask after her and was informed that they were all back at the condo when the Marathon bombs went off. As of now, well, I am guessing same as my niece and nephew.

It has to be terrifying being in that region -- this whole week. Everyone's PTSD from the events of 9-11 is no doubt being triggered -- I know that everyone there (including my family members) knew someone who knew a passenger on those airplanes.

Peace and safety to you all. May this end soon.

[name not needed]

41. My cat's name is Mittens.

[OhioChick]

10. No n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. National guard, called by the Governor

Like we have seen in multiple events before 911. These are not Federal troops.

[DonViejo]

30. Yep! ^^^^^^^^ nt

[gcomeau]

12. I thought it was the Guard? This kind of thing is why they exist.

And there may be lots of SWAT guys but the concern here isn't that the SWAT teams couldn't handle them if they find him... it's finding him at all. And Boston is a big place. More bodies = good. So no, not concerned.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

53. exactly

Good thing their guard isn't stuck in Iraq right now.

[Poll_Blind]

13. No.

Dudeman's maybe got explosives and automatic weapons. I heard policeman on the scanner last night, scared and desperate, calling for long gun backup because these motherfuckers were throwing bombs at them and shooting machine guns.

PB

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

14. No

Thanks for your concern.

[Earth_First]

18. Right...

I forgot that opinon is "concern" when it bucks mainstream thought on DemocraticUnderground.

How silly of me...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

37. Are you more bothered that he hasn't been caught yet?

Are you more concerned for the safety of the people of Watertown?

[Earth_First]

46. I'm not going to get involved in your setup... n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

16. No. (n/t)

[Dawson Leery]

17. The National Guard was intended for this type of situation.

[cry baby]

19. Not a bit. nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. The military is not involved.

There is a law called the Posse Comitatus Act that expressly prohibits federal military forces from participating in domestic law enforcement. A state's National Guard can get involved but only if invited to do so by that state's governor. What we are seeing is military-style equipment that is owned and operated by state and local law enforcement. It is fair to have some concern over the militarization of domestic police in general, but the only military personnel that could be legally involved in this operation would be the Massachusetts National Guard at the request of the governor.

[Earth_First]

26. Okay, I'm looking for that information right now actually...

Was the NG mobilized at behest of the Governor, in my attempt to keep up with the events while away at work; I was unable to ascertain that information.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. If the NG is involved it would have to be at the Governor's request.

Otherwise they wouldn't, and couldn't, participate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Yes, as of last night

[premium]

42. Yes.

Deval Patrick requested elements of the Mass. NG.

[Kali]

21. yes

but I live near the US-Mexican border, we have been pretty militarized around here for years. I am rather sick of it.

[jmg257]

22. No. Lots of area to check, lots of houses to search etc. The more boots the better. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

24. This is a very safe area - we probably have relatively few cops, and

there's a large area that needs to be searched with painstaking care.

So I'm not sure there's much alternative.

[MOTRDemocrat]

25. Not at all. nt

[byeya]

27. National Guard is OK in this situation for crowd control; public order, etc Let LE handle the

investigation and apprehension.
This seems to be what's happening.

[Hekate]

28. No.

[earthside]

29. Yes.

I am starting to believe that the various involved governments are on the verge of overplaying this situation.

At some point fear and terrorism become self-fulfilling.

Use the military more and more domestically, especially in situations not involving natural disaster, and it becomes too easy to expect military presence in everyday circumstances.

Of course, the news media is definitely overplaying this.

[11 Bravo]

32. Probably. DU is not immune to idiocy.

[Earth_First]

39. Hey, thanks for the slam...

Feel better?

[jpak]

33. No

n/t

[Tx4obama]

36. It's not the military, it's the NG. I'm sure the folks in Boston are glad they are there. n/t

[Generic Other]

38. I thought they were soldiers too

but the back of their camo said State Patrol. But they looked like infantry.

[Earth_First]

43. I saw that photograph, and I'm fairly certain those were in fact State Police...

The SWAT uniforms for many LEO organizations mimic the 'BDU'-style military uniform, so this in not what I was questioning.

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. Militarized Police maybe, or National Guard, but not active duty US Military.

I'd heard earlier that the Blackhawk helicopters belonged to the National Guard.

[etherealtruth]

45. I would ask the people in Massachusetts how they are feeling ...

... the folk in the interviews appear pretty comforted that the NG is on the job ....?

[Earth_First]

49. That's a valid point...

I'm sure that many if not most are extremely appriciative.

It definately brings to light the situation where it's easier to discuss the situation from a distance; I may even be crossing a insensitivity line that when I wrote the OP did not even consider...

[etherealtruth]

57. Its hard to know ....

.... when we are hundreds or thousands of miles away from something like this.

I truly don't know if people are comforted or angry .... but, I am going to let them decide .... if they start "bitching" about it I am going to listen. I will also listen if they are comforted by the response.

Heck, I don't know .... we are sailing in uncharted waters.

[bluestate10]

75. I have no concerns. nt

[Arctic Dave]

48. Yes.

I think we are catching the glimpse of the full integration of law and military in action.



Will people be as happy about this of they kill innocent people, that is the next question. If they do will the families have a recourse against them or will they be chalked up as "collateral damage"?


Oh, and as for the people saying, it's the NG, not the "real" military, what the fuck do you think they were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[dixiegrrrrl]

60. The piles of money available to police to become more militarized

makes me concerned.
OTOH, won't be much call for the military seeing as how the police have same weapons and outfits.

Obviously such heavy duty gear is necessary in this case
but as I watched the same parade of armored vehicles and shock troop outfits driving thru New Orleans after Katrina, I got a far different vibe.

[Marrah_G]

76. In Boston the Army Nat guard was doing things like guarding intersections

The AF guard was making sure all the different agencies could communicate with each other smoothly and helping with logistics.

They were not and are not kicking down doors.

[Arctic Dave]

81. Were they armed?

From pictures I've seen, I would say yes.

That, to me, is always a call for pause.

[Marrah_G]

83. The army guys doing the guarding were

Others, like my son carry a laptop and a cell phone

They are armed just in case.

I can understand why that can be un-nerving to some people, but I am betting you won't find any instances of them pointing those guns at folks.

I don't know what the guard is like in other places, but here they aren't a bunch of gun toting assholes.

[kestrel91316]

50. Nope. But I have a former military friend who doesn't like it.

He also has a bunch of guns and thinks Republicans and Democrats (politicians) are all equally bad.

To his credit, he is socially very liberal. NOT a teabagger at all.

[SlimJimmy]

51. National Guard troops. I don't suppose you'd complain if they were used

to help flood or other disaster victims?

[Rex]

55. Well there could be more going on then we know.

I would suspect the military has a lot more real world/real time experience with these kinds of situations then the Boston PD. Call it a hunch.

[graham4anything]

58. No. I welcome their help. Same as in storms like Sandy.They are the mililtia refered in the 2nd.

[Earth_First]

59. In a situation such as a natural disaster, I welcome their help as well...

The OP and resulting responses is helping me come around to the idea of being of some assistance in this "unprecedented" situation...

[Crabby Appleton]

61. No, plus the military has the best EOD techs

[mnhtnbb]

62. Better that the National Guard is available and mobilized HERE for such duty than

being sent overseas to fight some illegal and immoral war.

So, no, I am not disturbed by the presence of the National Guard in the search
for the wanted suspect.

[Yo_Mama]

63. It's normal to have the Nat'l Guard out in emergencies

Police & fire are overwhelmed. Anyone who's been in major hurricane areas, for example, has seen the Nat'l Guard posts in the aftermath.
They do everything from clearing highways and manning relief stations to enforcing curfews.

Some states also have their own state units (I'm sure this is true for NY, VA & CA) who can't be nationalized and sent overseas, but otherwise operate just like the National Guard in these emergencies. For example, the NY State Guard was called up in the wake of Sandy and was providing emergency assistance for at least six weeks.

In a situation like this you want these people involved. Then there will also be units like the BATF and Homeland Security that I'm sure get mobilized and sent in.

Regular army units can only be mobilized under very special circs due to Posse Comitatus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

When you have something this big, even pulling in emergency assistance from the police units in surrounding areas can't cover all the ground.

[Raine]

64. NO. nt

[Travelman]

65. Were you bothered by the National Guard coming out ...

... to help all of those people after Sandy struck? I certainly wasn't.

[Recovered Repug]

66. From what I heard,

the NG was used to provide logistics, transportation and crowd control. They weren't involved in the door-to-door search.

[sarisataka]

67. I haven't heard exactly

what the military are doing

From what I have seen, it looks like traffic control and standing around. I suspect there may be some EOD specialists who would consult with their civilian counterparts when a suspicious package is found.

[Marrah_G]

71. Things like blocking off streets

and the Air guard here has an excellent mobile communications unit that trains for exactly something like this.

[sarisataka]

74. That is reasonable

providing support service does not violate posse comitas

[Marrah_G]

78. These guys live here :)

They are our siblings, our parents, our children ( my own in particular ) .

They do this for alot of reasons, one of which is love of their communities.

[sarisataka]

82. My last duty assignment

was training NG troops before they headed overseas. A very likable bunch of guys and gals from NY, MN and WI. I really enjoyed working with them. I was pleased to hear they suffered minimal injuries and sadly 1 KIA.

Best wishes to your children for a safe service and Thanks

[Marrah_G]

84. I'm fortunate in that mine has never had to go over seas (knock on wood)

He's just 20 and has just reached the point in his career where he is eligible to go over ( AF combat comm).

Thank you for training them

[FarCenter]

68. They could call out the Minutemen

By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April’s breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard round the world.

[Marrah_G]

80. I wish I could post a picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/267th_Combat_Communications_Squadron

It has a minuteman on it

[frogmarch]

69. No. nt

[Marrah_G]

70. It was the National guard. That is why we have them....

My son trains for just this very thing.

[bluestate10]

72. The National Guard is under state control until federalized. Governor Patrick is controlling

the Massachusetts National Guard troops that are providing perimeter control on the area being searched. I have no concerns at all.

[justiceischeap]

77. This was still a terrorist attack, yeah?

When else would you call in the National Guard if not then? Were you bothered by the National Guard being deployed after 9/11? Just because "only" 3 people were killed in Boston doesn't make this situation any less dangerous.

[BeeBee]

85. No. n/t