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bigtree

(85,989 posts)
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:28 AM Apr 2013

LOSERS, not able to settle themselves, so, they hated everyone else who did

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:25 PM - Edit history (1)

-- statement from uncle of Boston bombing suspects in Montgomery, Co., Md., just now on NBC, when asked why he believes young men committed the attack.

"Nothing to do with Chechnya . . . Islam . . ."

watch:

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LOSERS, not able to settle themselves, so, they hated everyone else who did (Original Post) bigtree Apr 2013 OP
Ruslan Tsarni - a well-spoken man wanting to get out in front of the media storm. randome Apr 2013 #1
it was a brilliant statement bigtree Apr 2013 #4
good. that is what i want to hear. because i believe that is ALL this is and bullshit with the seabeyond Apr 2013 #8
Up till now, nobody would call these two losers. LisaL Apr 2013 #9
All the money and fame in the world and you can still be a loser inside. randome Apr 2013 #19
Well that would apply to everybody, woudn't it? LisaL Apr 2013 #23
Yes. Anyone you know but are unable to telepathically monitor is capable of being a loser. randome Apr 2013 #27
it would IF everyone were losers. but we are not. many of us live a winner kinda mentality seabeyond Apr 2013 #29
I think he made a more important point bigtree Apr 2013 #22
But does it make it the truth? LisaL Apr 2013 #25
depends on what question you are trying to answer bigtree Apr 2013 #42
He has no credibility making that assertion because he hadn't seen them in years. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #93
hmm bigtree Apr 2013 #100
That is an uncle in Russia not the one who spoke to the media. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #102
i think they absolutely would the older brother. seabeyond Apr 2013 #26
Seriously? LisaL Apr 2013 #31
have you watched two brothers grow and interact with each other? i have had a lifetime seabeyond Apr 2013 #33
How do you call a medical student a loser malaise Apr 2013 #30
doesnt the youngest become a loser when he participates in THIS? lol. i think the seabeyond Apr 2013 #34
True malaise Apr 2013 #37
absolutely. i think so. if the kids had the back bone to say... fuck that. my life is on track. seabeyond Apr 2013 #39
Well it's all over now malaise Apr 2013 #41
How can he be a medical student at 19? karynnj Apr 2013 #60
Pre-med I suspect but malaise Apr 2013 #68
Father could be confused. LisaL Apr 2013 #72
True but all I've heard in recent days is malaise Apr 2013 #109
Marine Biology could be pre-med. LisaL Apr 2013 #117
From what I read he was a nursing student. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #94
To me, a loser is someone who lacks heart and integrity. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #67
He was in his second year of undergraduate work siligut Apr 2013 #91
It's pretty easy GaYellowDawg Apr 2013 #106
Valid point - lots of losers with criminal minds malaise Apr 2013 #111
He wasn't exactly a medical student. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #110
I thought the older guy was attending a community college. Skidmore Apr 2013 #114
Tsarni seemed well aware of those kinds of misconceptions. randome Apr 2013 #15
That is my gut feeling. n/t ChazII Apr 2013 #86
by definition, I think anyone who blows up people is a homocidal shithead, not to mention a "loser" Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #56
These two don't look like losers to me. They were involved, had goals. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #87
he had a more measured interview today bigtree Apr 2013 #89
He gave the media his time, I hope they live him alone now... dorkzilla Apr 2013 #2
He answered their questions and asked for respect. randome Apr 2013 #6
I would like to hear the uncle answer one question ...WHY DID THE BOY"S FATHER Tippy Apr 2013 #88
Well, he'll be forever linked to terrorists justiceischeap Apr 2013 #3
i do not think so. we will see. and i get what you are saying. but we ALL have the family seabeyond Apr 2013 #12
Exactly. Amaril Apr 2013 #77
Very powerful and moving. n/t cynatnite Apr 2013 #5
But is it true? LisaL Apr 2013 #7
I didn't see the uncle deutsey Apr 2013 #10
right. i get the older brother brought the younger in. the younger probably could seabeyond Apr 2013 #18
He was "a nice quiet boy," according to the uncle deutsey Apr 2013 #32
living in texas, i know a couple young men, 26ish and older, that are disillusioned seabeyond Apr 2013 #38
at that age it's routine to be out of school and working. if he had a kid and a wife he wasn't able bettyellen Apr 2013 #105
But they obviously didn't feel successful CJCRANE Apr 2013 #14
Obviously? LisaL Apr 2013 #20
If you feel you are achieving what you want in life CJCRANE Apr 2013 #24
It sounds like the uncle is estranged from the boys' family. avaistheone1 Apr 2013 #17
Do you not understand marions ghost Apr 2013 #48
He retired boxing after limited success- had a wife who he wasn't supporting (she lived with her bettyellen Apr 2013 #95
+1000, Interesting comment. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #11
except that not what anyone who knew the younger one says. not a one cali Apr 2013 #13
Exactly. LisaL Apr 2013 #16
again, like i said in a post above. the older brother brought younger in. i can see that. loser seabeyond Apr 2013 #21
yes, I said that a while ago in another post cali Apr 2013 #28
Agreed. I don't think those two brothers had any real religious DinahMoeHum Apr 2013 #35
As has been pointed out in this very thread, the younger brother was quite popular Fumesucker Apr 2013 #40
Ahem marions ghost Apr 2013 #51
At least I didn't call her "Snookie" like some female DUer did a little while back Fumesucker Apr 2013 #53
nah. just the size of a gfs chest is indicative of your worth. i mean, wtf? nt seabeyond Apr 2013 #57
Of course it is gaspee Apr 2013 #63
+1 redqueen Apr 2013 #80
I wasn't trying to be negative, go take it up with the woman who called her "Snookie" Fumesucker Apr 2013 #66
lol seabeyond Apr 2013 #69
I think I'm a lot like your older son, serious mostly, don't make friends easily Fumesucker Apr 2013 #71
lol lol seabeyond Apr 2013 #79
Nasty marions ghost Apr 2013 #75
That could be the next debate: the role of social media in radicalizing people. nt CJCRANE Apr 2013 #43
and THIS... i totally agree. i have been discussing this. seeing the ripple turn into a wave. seabeyond Apr 2013 #55
Also IMO the authorities need to monitor social media more effectively CJCRANE Apr 2013 #59
that's as close as we'll get to understanding this; to remind of the utter selfishness of the act bigtree Apr 2013 #47
Where is there any indication they were alienated or disillusioned? snagglepuss Apr 2013 #92
both made comments - older no AMerican friends (don't understand them) younger 10 years in USA and bettyellen Apr 2013 #99
The older one married an American girl who converted. And I heard interviews snagglepuss Apr 2013 #101
Was he living with his wife? Working? To me it sounds like he had nothing going on except dashed bettyellen Apr 2013 #103
Excellent analysis. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #112
we all know people who are mildly like this- take no responsibility for their problems, who have bettyellen Apr 2013 #116
I would live next door to that guy. GitRDun Apr 2013 #36
Yea. Riiiiiiiight. Zax2me Apr 2013 #44
I think the alienation comes first. The ideology comes next CJCRANE Apr 2013 #46
Losers and Winners, that's what America is all about Fumesucker Apr 2013 #45
Agree marions ghost Apr 2013 #49
I think that you'd be hard pressed to put some deep reflective meaning behind such an act bigtree Apr 2013 #50
It wasn't the act I was speaking of but the terminology and attitudes behind that terminology Fumesucker Apr 2013 #52
that didn't look to be the intent of the uncle in using that term bigtree Apr 2013 #54
But you liked the terminology enough to repeat it and praise it Fumesucker Apr 2013 #58
you focused on one word bigtree Apr 2013 #61
Since we think in language then language to a big extent determines how we think Fumesucker Apr 2013 #62
Am I the only one that thinks older brother seemed aimless and adrift? Not having a home with bettyellen Apr 2013 #96
As someone who doesn't really "fit" in the culture that surrounds me I understand that alienation Fumesucker Apr 2013 #97
yeah, I feel lucky to live in NYC where there's a niche for everyone.... bettyellen Apr 2013 #98
I hear you. I find myself isolating a lot for those very same reasons. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #113
It is possible marions ghost Apr 2013 #65
You can't be a loser if Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #73
The "game" is life in America Fumesucker Apr 2013 #76
And your point is? Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #81
On top of my head, obviously Fumesucker Apr 2013 #82
Now THAT is cutting through the bullshit hifiguy Apr 2013 #108
Love that Uncle Tsarni! Taverner Apr 2013 #64
All terrorists are losers, So I agree with the uncle. Rex Apr 2013 #70
Take a look at the thread with 30 pictures of the younger brother Fumesucker Apr 2013 #74
I tried to look at that link in that thread Rex Apr 2013 #78
I think the uncle meant malcontents. His English was pretty basic and broken. Cleita Apr 2013 #83
Define loser! Milliesmom Apr 2013 #84
What if they both maxed-out all their credit-card accounts (if any) Amonester Apr 2013 #90
I think you are combining characteristics of both of them. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #115
Hi, Yes I stated that I was. Milliesmom Apr 2013 #118
Sorry, no problem. smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #119
so young MFM008 Apr 2013 #85
The older one was 26. snagglepuss Apr 2013 #104
It was brilliant GaYellowDawg Apr 2013 #107
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
8. good. that is what i want to hear. because i believe that is ALL this is and bullshit with the
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:34 AM
Apr 2013

"islamic terrorist" bullshit.

or mcveigh and the others are "christian terrorists"

all about being losers.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
9. Up till now, nobody would call these two losers.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

Scholarships, prestigous schools, etc.
So that doesn't make sense.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
27. Yes. Anyone you know but are unable to telepathically monitor is capable of being a loser.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
Apr 2013

And on this scale, too. Fortunately, the vast majority of people don't feel so badly about themselves, they feel the need to kill innocent people.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
29. it would IF everyone were losers. but we are not. many of us live a winner kinda mentality
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
Apr 2013

that has nothing to do with "appearance of success" as definition of a winner.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
22. I think he made a more important point
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:38 AM
Apr 2013

. . . that he didn't believe they were motivated by any ideology or zeal; rather, he saw their actions as selfish and opportunistic.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
42. depends on what question you are trying to answer
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:51 AM
Apr 2013

I think that there is evidence that these two were well immersed in the American culture, so I'm immediately suspect of some 'religious' or zealous motive. I'm more inclined to suspect a selfish and bitter sort of opportunism behind the attacks. I'd be more inclined to that pov than one that lays some nationality or ideology on top of the actions. In that perspective, I agree with the fellow.

You do realize that he's in a tight spot and is trying to push back as hard as he can against any suspicion or blowback. That's one of my old hometowns, and it's not a backward place, but I can imagine some friction will occur.

These two would have been relatively new indoctrinates to 'Islamic' terror or nationalistic expressions of violence; so detached and so anonymously perpetrated. There is a sad story of the utter self-centered nature of humanity to dream up and carry out such an attack behind any of these profiles of their affinities or beliefs.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
100. hmm
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
Apr 2013
Kirit Radia ?@KiritRadia_ABC 1h

How #Boston suspect's family became concerned about his extremist views. Uncle kicked him out. My full story here: http://abcn.ws/11qXaDc

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
102. That is an uncle in Russia not the one who spoke to the media.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:28 PM
Apr 2013

The one in Maryland said he hasn't seen the boys or their parents in five years and when asked why said it was for personal reasons.

What's interesting is that this story explains why the FBI questioned the older brother.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
26. i think they absolutely would the older brother.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:39 AM
Apr 2013

and i saw you in another thread and i stated, as the younger brother is brought in by the older brother, i can get that. a large age span. hero worship. the kid would probably have been fine if older brother left him alone.

the loser for younger brother comes in being a follower.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
31. Seriously?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:41 AM
Apr 2013

Why would someone worship a supposed loser? And what exactly makes an older brother a loser?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
33. have you watched two brothers grow and interact with each other? i have had a lifetime
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:43 AM
Apr 2013

with brothers. hubby and his brother and two sons. this is the dynamic of many brother relationships.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
34. doesnt the youngest become a loser when he participates in THIS? lol. i think the
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:45 AM
Apr 2013

realization this kid that had so much opportunity came to this choice is how the uncle sees him as a loser also.

earlier, it was.... but but but... he has so much opportunity.

at the point of realizing and acknowledge the kids participation, he is a loser.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
39. absolutely. i think so. if the kids had the back bone to say... fuck that. my life is on track.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:47 AM
Apr 2013

or the oldest didnt bring him in. but, yes. i agree.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
72. Father could be confused.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:18 PM
Apr 2013

In Russia there is no-premed. Students go straight into medical school.

siligut

(12,272 posts)
91. He was in his second year of undergraduate work
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:55 AM
Apr 2013

Hardly one who would be considered a med student. A med student has completed four years, passed the MCAT and been accepted to medical school. He may have been pre-med.

GaYellowDawg

(4,446 posts)
106. It's pretty easy
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:28 PM
Apr 2013

The theater shooter in Denver was a PhD student in neuroscience. If anything, higher up on the academic ladder than a med school student. And he was most definitely a loser.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
110. He wasn't exactly a medical student.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:26 PM
Apr 2013

He was a flunking undergrad at UMass Dartmouth. He was not in medical school.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
15. Tsarni seemed well aware of those kinds of misconceptions.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Apr 2013

And he sounded authentic when he said how much he loves America. I think he had the two bombers pegged accurately.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
56. by definition, I think anyone who blows up people is a homocidal shithead, not to mention a "loser"
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:19 PM
Apr 2013

but I really wonder how you can make such sweeping pronouncements about their motivations or lack thereof.

An awful lot of bad shit is perpetuated in this world by zealots and religious fundamentalists. Surely you can see that.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
87. These two don't look like losers to me. They were involved, had goals.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
Apr 2013

Tamelane had a wife and daughter. How are they losers? How can they be described as "not settled"? Though I commend the uncle for his speech, he clearly wanted to skip the issue of religion and radicialization.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
89. he had a more measured interview today
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:42 AM
Apr 2013

I think he was trying to push back any notion that there was anything about the abhorrent acts that he or any Chechen in the U.S. would or could support. It was an inelegant term, but I think it had the effect he wanted.

What I think he was really getting at was the sense that these two had felt alienated from America -albeit, they were thoroughly immersing themselves in our culture. That disconnect and disaffection looks to be at the root of whatever affinity the two may have developed for any violent expressions of support for Islam, or for acts of violence as an expression of their own personal antipathies. That disaffection could also make them prime targets for the recruiters who scout the internet sites for sympathetic youth willing to act or advocate for their individual interest.

We'll see if there is some kind of connection with their actions and some larger group, organization, or plot. But, it's clear that there is a pathology behind these two's actions which reflects on serious flaws in their character; despite whatever accomplishments they may have achieved, or whatever personal relationships they may have had. 'Losers' isn't out of mind.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
6. He answered their questions and asked for respect.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:31 AM
Apr 2013

I think he did the right thing and it may be enough to keep the media off his back.

Tippy

(4,610 posts)
88. I would like to hear the uncle answer one question ...WHY DID THE BOY"S FATHER
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

Make a threat against Americans....."you better not do anything to my boys or else"

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
3. Well, he'll be forever linked to terrorists
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:31 AM
Apr 2013

and be suspect because of it, because that's the way of the US. I'd be pissed at any of my relatives if they did something like this, especially if I was Muslim.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
12. i do not think so. we will see. and i get what you are saying. but we ALL have the family
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

member that does shit. and we say... say wha???

i hope not. from what i am hearing from the man, i think he put it in its place, and i would hope we support that. i think we can.

Amaril

(1,267 posts)
77. Exactly.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

I have a cousin who had her husband murdered (murder for hire deal, AND she arranged for it to be done when their children weren't home, but would be the first ones to come home & discover his body) who is now sitting in prison for the rest of her life.

I can't bring myself to harm a spider (and I freaking LOATHE spiders!) much less a human.

We don't get to choose our family. Best we can do is limit -- or eliminate (which is what I've done) -- our contact with them.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
7. But is it true?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:32 AM
Apr 2013

Both appear to have been quite successful. Both in college, as I understand it.
What exactly makes them losers?

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
10. I didn't see the uncle
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

but I've heard reports where he said the older brother (the one who's dead) was the loser. The reporter said the uncle had good things to say about the brother who is still on the run, that he had a scholarship and everyone was proud of him.

But, as I said, that's just what I heard a reporter say. I didn't see the uncle myself.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
18. right. i get the older brother brought the younger in. the younger probably could
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Apr 2013

have been fine. but an older brother has a lot of influence on a lot of younger siblings.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
32. He was "a nice quiet boy," according to the uncle
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:41 AM
Apr 2013

He looks like it in pictures of him prior to the bombing.

Sad.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
38. living in texas, i know a couple young men, 26ish and older, that are disillusioned
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:46 AM
Apr 2013

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

with life, religious high road in a conservative manner, reduced to this older son. i get, or can see, how he shifted to this.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
105. at that age it's routine to be out of school and working. if he had a kid and a wife he wasn't able
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:36 PM
Apr 2013

to support, it would eventually weigh heavily on him. His parents left recently, and I'm sure that meant less financial support for him.
He was at the age to get kicked out of the nest if he wasn't working or serious about studies. Apparently he was "retired" from boxing, so what was his focus now?

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
14. But they obviously didn't feel successful
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Apr 2013

for whatever reason.

IMO it's overcompensation for whatever inferiority they felt. It's need to latch onto something bigger than themselves.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
20. Obviously?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

We don't yet know what the motive is, so to suggest that it because they didn't feel successful makes no sense.

 

avaistheone1

(14,626 posts)
17. It sounds like the uncle is estranged from the boys' family.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Apr 2013

So I wonder how accurate the uncle's information is.




marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
48. Do you not understand
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:06 PM
Apr 2013

that people can be pathological losers and have everything materially and all kinds of superficial potential?

Too many examples to list.

Only losers DO this. Never mind anything else.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
95. He retired boxing after limited success- had a wife who he wasn't supporting (she lived with her
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:20 PM
Apr 2013

parents) and I thought somewhere it said he previously had a kid he wasn't supporting.
From the way he was dressing flashy a few years ago it looks like he had aspirations of big success. What was he doing not working at his age? Didn't see anything about him being in school currently. Last I saw he dropped out for boxing. Maybe his parent leaving left him without a whole lot of support? Seems like he realized it wasn't going to be so easy, and got embittered toward the whole idea of the American Dream. It's not far fetched- men feeling like they have failed to succeed or cannot find a way to support their families have often gone to the brink and taken it out on others.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
13. except that not what anyone who knew the younger one says. not a one
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:35 AM
Apr 2013

to a person they've all said he was well liked.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
21. again, like i said in a post above. the older brother brought younger in. i can see that. loser
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

for the younger brother is the point of being involved.

DinahMoeHum

(21,784 posts)
35. Agreed. I don't think those two brothers had any real religious
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:45 AM
Apr 2013

convictions until very recently (the past couple of years or so).

With such a blank slate, add alienation, disillusionment, not fitting in, etc., and those two young men, particularly the older brother, were easy meat for religious propagandists on the (spider) Web.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
40. As has been pointed out in this very thread, the younger brother was quite popular
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:48 AM
Apr 2013

Hell, I never even considered going to prom in HS and the kid had a very busty prom date, from that aspect I'm a far bigger loser than he is or was.

I think it's a lot more complicated than this OP makes it out to be.

gaspee

(3,231 posts)
63. Of course it is
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:41 PM
Apr 2013

Don't you know that women are props for men's self-esteem - they should just carry around a freaking card-board cutout.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
66. I wasn't trying to be negative, go take it up with the woman who called her "Snookie"
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:47 PM
Apr 2013

The "Losers" when I was in school, and I was one of them, didn't have any dates at all, let alone attractive ones. Since the young lady's face was blurred out there wasn't much else that could be used to describe her other than "busty", a characteristic that was pointed out in a very snarky manner by another woman well before I used a more polite term for it.



Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
71. I think I'm a lot like your older son, serious mostly, don't make friends easily
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:16 PM
Apr 2013

It's a fucking miracle I ever had kids.



marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
75. Nasty
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:22 PM
Apr 2013

but an obvious baseless pejorative, reflecting on the poster more than the photo. "Busty" used as a plus also for all the reasons I know you know. Accept your

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
55. and THIS... i totally agree. i have been discussing this. seeing the ripple turn into a wave.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:19 PM
Apr 2013

now, the good and bad in the net, also. certainly good. but, this feeds the bad.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
59. Also IMO the authorities need to monitor social media more effectively
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:21 PM
Apr 2013

because nowadays these guys usually leave a trail of clues online.

And we (the public) need to be vigilant to look for the signs of radicalization on social media.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
47. that's as close as we'll get to understanding this; to remind of the utter selfishness of the act
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:03 PM
Apr 2013

You make the most relevant point about their newness to 'Islam' or any nationalistic influences in Chechnya which would have inflamed their passions in some political or religious way that should enjoin any entreaty to pitting us against any nation, for instance, like Bush's call to intimidate the ME with our military forces; or, develop some U.S. fear of Chechens in our midst.

That's why I liked the bent of his statement. Crime committed; turn yourself in. No need to lay all of the Islamaphobia or anything else on top of it (for his sake, and ours, as well).

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
99. both made comments - older no AMerican friends (don't understand them) younger 10 years in USA and
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:10 PM
Apr 2013

is "over it". Disillusioned sounds right to me.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
101. The older one married an American girl who converted. And I heard interviews
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:23 PM
Apr 2013

with guys who described themselves as friends of the older brother. Are you aware that he was denied the older brother was denied US citizenship because of his domestic assault conviction?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
103. Was he living with his wife? Working? To me it sounds like he had nothing going on except dashed
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:32 PM
Apr 2013

hopes on making it big time as a boxer. Did he go back to school after the Golden Gloves thing didn't work out, or have a job?
I read he also had a child earlier. Was he taking care of the kid or his wife? (wasn't she living with her parents?) Sounds like he was a spoiled brat who bit off more than he could chew. With the cars and flashy clothes, it looks like he aspired to a bougie lifestyle. Sounds like the level of immaturity you get with BPD, it's everyone else's fault your pie on the sky dreams aren't working out. They must be punished.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
112. Excellent analysis.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:36 PM
Apr 2013

In fact, I would say that is true of most of these terrorists. If I can't be big, I'm going to be bad. Pissed off at their own inadequacies and determined to make someone else pay for it.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
116. we all know people who are mildly like this- take no responsibility for their problems, who have
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 04:33 PM
Apr 2013

mood swings and that see things or people as totally idealized one moment and totally horrible the next. They make no concrete plans and latch onto whatever looks like it will give them an identity at the moment.

Was that American drug dealer his best friend or did he not have any American friends? A person with BPD would believe both things to be true at different moments. Was he infatuated with a decadent American lifestyle, or repulsed by it? It seems like both, in turns.
But those in BPD's more extreme end are the extreme narcissists: sociopaths and psychopaths. He was too wrapped up in his own anger to care about his brother to leave him out of it. BPDs feed off people who they can manipulate and control, it seems like he could have felt he was suddenly fighting American culture over his brother's soul.

If he was hating Americans as "not having control", how did he feel about his own failure to build a stable life? He was not disciplined enough to continue school and box, or to work to feed his wife and kids. (I think that's what the uncle meant by loser) In getting involved with extremists, he was creating a whole new identity that would cover his utter lack of coping with the day to day responsibilities.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
45. Losers and Winners, that's what America is all about
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:58 AM
Apr 2013

I suspect a lot of our social problems have to do with that attitude, if you aren't a Winner then you're a Loser and everyone can't be a Winner or being a Winner is meaningless.



marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
49. Agree
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
Apr 2013

If you're not a winner you're a loser--there's little in between. So if you're not a winner you must pretend to be.

I see it everywhere.

bigtree

(85,989 posts)
50. I think that you'd be hard pressed to put some deep reflective meaning behind such an act
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
Apr 2013

. . . something which would lead anyone who was subject to these young men's violence to believe they were anything more than what the uncle described.

But, you go ahead and explain how this act of violence has any more meaning outside of the awful carnage and grief. The fellow was trying to push off any thought that he, or his fellow Chechens condone or excuse any of what they've done. He did make a fuller statement that makes a quibble over the use of the term, loser, silly. It was the most condemning word he could think of for a relative.

Sillier, still, to attribute some impression you have about Americans to this recent immigrant.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
52. It wasn't the act I was speaking of but the terminology and attitudes behind that terminology
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:15 PM
Apr 2013

I've lived in America for more than sixty years and have some idea how things work here.

Talking about "Winners" and "Losers" is not the way to the more egalitarian society that at least some of us would like to see.



bigtree

(85,989 posts)
54. that didn't look to be the intent of the uncle in using that term
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:18 PM
Apr 2013

. . . maybe he could use a course in egalitarian terminology

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
58. But you liked the terminology enough to repeat it and praise it
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:21 PM
Apr 2013

I'm guessing you've never been labeled a "Loser" or felt yourself as belonging in that category.



bigtree

(85,989 posts)
61. you focused on one word
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:31 PM
Apr 2013

I've described how I feel about the man's statement, word included, at several points in this thread. Read through, if you're interested. You're swatting at your own distaste for the word here. The man is a recent immigrant. 'Loser' was a push back. An attempt to put distance between the violence and he and other Chechens who might draw negative scrutiny and attention.

The rest of his statement was significant to me, because it didn't try and assign any ideology or expression of nationality to the act. 'Loser,' in the context of his statement, was a clear denunciation of the two brothers - as clear as he may have imagined it would convey in our language.

I imagine that he's somewhat unfamiliar with the all of the precepts and etiquette of egalitarian terminology, so, I'm hesitant to ascribe what you describe as American values and intentions to that one word.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
62. Since we think in language then language to a big extent determines how we think
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:37 PM
Apr 2013

I'm trying to give a different perspective on how the use of language tends to make us think in certain ways.

If you had ever been labeled as a "Loser" you'd be more sensitive to the use of the term.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
96. Am I the only one that thinks older brother seemed aimless and adrift? Not having a home with
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:25 PM
Apr 2013

his wife or supporting the kid he had earlier? I think he had excuses for not growing up and getting a career going while he had the boxing, but when that was over... and his parents went home, he lost a couple of life lines.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
97. As someone who doesn't really "fit" in the culture that surrounds me I understand that alienation
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:37 PM
Apr 2013

American culture is remarkably extroverted and if you aren't an extrovert it's often difficult to deal with.

The main reason I'm online a lot is because other than one relative I don't see very often there's not a single person I know who's interested in anything I really care about. I grow amazingly weary of hearing about about sports, hunting, fishing, reality TV shows and other pop culture things, none of them interest me at all and that sort of thing seems to be the only conversation most people are able to have.

Even the weather is now a difficult subject to discuss with a great many people since an argument over global climate change often ensues.





 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
98. yeah, I feel lucky to live in NYC where there's a niche for everyone....
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:08 PM
Apr 2013

I have to remember to be polite about the reality show stuff I think is stupid and that I have peculiar interests others might think odd.

But the older kid looks like he had a lot of immaturity- chasing the boxing dream and not taking care of the basics. (his kid or wife) I'm going to guess his parents tolerated and helped him financially through the wealth and fame through boxer dream years and when it fell apart for him, it really fell apart. Sounds like he was a cafeteria Islamist until someone pulled him over to be more radical just when he started feeling like he was most vulnerable- feeling like a loser. Easy to reject the American dream when it's just failed you big time.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
113. I hear you. I find myself isolating a lot for those very same reasons.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:43 PM
Apr 2013

It can be lonely, but it's a lot less frustrating.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
65. It is possible
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:42 PM
Apr 2013

to see these guys as pathological and also make a comment about the winners/ losers attitudes in America. One is a condition and the other is a stressor relative to the condition. (Not a contradiction)--especially since they have spent 10 formative years in America.

Think about the emphasis on winning in America. And the definitions of winning in America. And how oppressive that attitude can be when you don't meet those definitions. I was a teenager in another country (tho born in and from America) --it is very difficult to fit in. Not that this is in any way an excuse. There is no excuse. But there are reasons that go into creating a sociopath capable of premeditated mass murder. There are plenty of other reasons, but one factor that could legitimately figure into it is the American view of winners and losers. No harm in discussing that.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
108. Now THAT is cutting through the bullshit
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:43 PM
Apr 2013

the way Alexander the Great cut through the Gordian Knot.

In this country you're a winner or a loser. And if you're not outwardly successful (for a straight male, that means money, a very attractive GF/wife, fancy car, being an outgoing and gladhanding asshole) you're invisible and a zero.

I have been a "loser" all my life despite an Ivy League education because I am both very nerdy and dx'd Aspergers. I've fucking had it with the superficiality and nastiness of American society and am headed for a job in China in a few months. Fuck this country and its superficiality, hypocrisy and ugliness.

You, sir, win the internets for today on the basis of stating pure fact.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
70. All terrorists are losers, So I agree with the uncle.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:13 PM
Apr 2013

My mother told me she was worried now for the uncles safety. I have to agree with her.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
74. Take a look at the thread with 30 pictures of the younger brother
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:21 PM
Apr 2013

A "Loser" he may be now but it's pretty damn clear from the pictures he wasn't always that way.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
78. I tried to look at that link in that thread
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:26 PM
Apr 2013

but nothing showed, I will try again. I agree, I don't think anyone starts off as a loser - it is a journey that can end up that way. I don't think it is always a forgone conclusion either - but terrifying innocent people (imo) makes one a loser. In the sense that we are using it, I also don't believe in this binary idea of there are 'winners' and 'losers' and nothing in-between - most of us fall in-between.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
83. I think the uncle meant malcontents. His English was pretty basic and broken.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:26 PM
Apr 2013

You can be a loser and not blow stuff up. I've known plenty of losers in my life time and mostly they sabotage themselves and not others. A malcontent on the other hand would have an axe to grind if they couldn't adjust to a new life in a different country and culture.

 

Milliesmom

(493 posts)
84. Define loser!
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:33 PM
Apr 2013

Well educated, spoke three languages, boxer, life guard, medical student, accomplished piano player, wrestler , well liked by all that knew them, well dressed. The description is on both brothers.
Where did they get their money from, where did the money come from for schooling and training? If the family were rich then why would the mother steal over $1000. worth on clothing? so many questions. Loser is what really bothers me as they had so much going for them, the American dream and were doing so well, the older brother was the one that ruined both their lives by becoming so radical.

Amonester

(11,541 posts)
90. What if they both maxed-out all their credit-card accounts (if any)
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:47 AM
Apr 2013

and were beginning to freak out about not being able to keep on their obviously bad spending habits? (Given that I haven't heard anything about them 'working' anywhere yet.)

Would that explain their ATM attempts, then their 7-11 holdup?

Why would they go bezerk upon seeing their pics published everywhere then? Let's go (where?) live the 'Wild-Wild West" Dream to nowhere and kill any law-enforcement dudes who would dare stand in our way?

Doesn't make any sense.

But still, just speculating.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
115. I think you are combining characteristics of both of them.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:59 PM
Apr 2013

They both spoke three languages. The older one was a very successful boxer but probably wasn't going anywhere with it. The younger was a high school wrestler. They were both supposedly intelligent, the younger was a pre-med student at UMass (flunking) and the older dropped out of Bunker Hill Community College. The younger was well liked, the older was not liked at all. The older played piano, not sure about the younger. There is a good article on them in the Boston Globe that might paint a clearer picture.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/relatives-marathon-bombing-suspects-worried-that-older-brother-was-corrupting-sweet-younger-sibling/UCYHkiP9nfsjAtMjJPWJJL/story.html


GaYellowDawg

(4,446 posts)
107. It was brilliant
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:35 PM
Apr 2013

"Losers" resonates with just about everyone, and is obviously quoteworthy. Took the first opportunity to be as pro-American as he could (shouldn't be necessary, but frankly, is), dissociated Chechens and Muslims from the crime. "Not able to settle themselves, so hated everyone who did" - reminding watchers that the percentage of immigrants who come into the country and do things like this is so small that it almost doesn't exist. Just brilliant, and obviously heartfelt.

I feel really bad for this man and his family. They've been associated with monsters through no fault or actions of their own.

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