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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLOSERS, not able to settle themselves, so, they hated everyone else who did
Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:25 PM - Edit history (1)
-- statement from uncle of Boston bombing suspects in Montgomery, Co., Md., just now on NBC, when asked why he believes young men committed the attack.
"Nothing to do with Chechnya . . . Islam . . ."
watch:
randome
(34,845 posts)Smart guy.
bigtree
(85,989 posts). . . smart man, indeed.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)"islamic terrorist" bullshit.
or mcveigh and the others are "christian terrorists"
all about being losers.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Scholarships, prestigous schools, etc.
So that doesn't make sense.
randome
(34,845 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)And on this scale, too. Fortunately, the vast majority of people don't feel so badly about themselves, they feel the need to kill innocent people.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that has nothing to do with "appearance of success" as definition of a winner.
bigtree
(85,989 posts). . . that he didn't believe they were motivated by any ideology or zeal; rather, he saw their actions as selfish and opportunistic.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)bigtree
(85,989 posts)I think that there is evidence that these two were well immersed in the American culture, so I'm immediately suspect of some 'religious' or zealous motive. I'm more inclined to suspect a selfish and bitter sort of opportunism behind the attacks. I'd be more inclined to that pov than one that lays some nationality or ideology on top of the actions. In that perspective, I agree with the fellow.
You do realize that he's in a tight spot and is trying to push back as hard as he can against any suspicion or blowback. That's one of my old hometowns, and it's not a backward place, but I can imagine some friction will occur.
These two would have been relatively new indoctrinates to 'Islamic' terror or nationalistic expressions of violence; so detached and so anonymously perpetrated. There is a sad story of the utter self-centered nature of humanity to dream up and carry out such an attack behind any of these profiles of their affinities or beliefs.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)bigtree
(85,989 posts)How #Boston suspect's family became concerned about his extremist views. Uncle kicked him out. My full story here: http://abcn.ws/11qXaDc
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)The one in Maryland said he hasn't seen the boys or their parents in five years and when asked why said it was for personal reasons.
What's interesting is that this story explains why the FBI questioned the older brother.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and i saw you in another thread and i stated, as the younger brother is brought in by the older brother, i can get that. a large age span. hero worship. the kid would probably have been fine if older brother left him alone.
the loser for younger brother comes in being a follower.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Why would someone worship a supposed loser? And what exactly makes an older brother a loser?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with brothers. hubby and his brother and two sons. this is the dynamic of many brother relationships.
malaise
(268,949 posts)Maybe he meant the big brother
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)realization this kid that had so much opportunity came to this choice is how the uncle sees him as a loser also.
earlier, it was.... but but but... he has so much opportunity.
at the point of realizing and acknowledge the kids participation, he is a loser.
but no doubt the big brother was his mentor since the parents had returned to Russia
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)or the oldest didnt bring him in. but, yes. i agree.
malaise
(268,949 posts)The father doesn't appear to be the brightest bulb in the drawer
karynnj
(59,502 posts)He is an undergraduate at UMASS .
malaise
(268,949 posts)his father said Med school
LisaL
(44,973 posts)In Russia there is no-premed. Students go straight into medical school.
malaise
(268,949 posts)Marine Biology
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Pretty much anything science related could be pre-med.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)siligut
(12,272 posts)Hardly one who would be considered a med student. A med student has completed four years, passed the MCAT and been accepted to medical school. He may have been pre-med.
GaYellowDawg
(4,446 posts)The theater shooter in Denver was a PhD student in neuroscience. If anything, higher up on the academic ladder than a med school student. And he was most definitely a loser.
malaise
(268,949 posts)have good degrees
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)He was a flunking undergrad at UMass Dartmouth. He was not in medical school.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Prestigious school?
randome
(34,845 posts)And he sounded authentic when he said how much he loves America. I think he had the two bombers pegged accurately.
ChazII
(6,204 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)but I really wonder how you can make such sweeping pronouncements about their motivations or lack thereof.
An awful lot of bad shit is perpetuated in this world by zealots and religious fundamentalists. Surely you can see that.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Tamelane had a wife and daughter. How are they losers? How can they be described as "not settled"? Though I commend the uncle for his speech, he clearly wanted to skip the issue of religion and radicialization.
bigtree
(85,989 posts)I think he was trying to push back any notion that there was anything about the abhorrent acts that he or any Chechen in the U.S. would or could support. It was an inelegant term, but I think it had the effect he wanted.
What I think he was really getting at was the sense that these two had felt alienated from America -albeit, they were thoroughly immersing themselves in our culture. That disconnect and disaffection looks to be at the root of whatever affinity the two may have developed for any violent expressions of support for Islam, or for acts of violence as an expression of their own personal antipathies. That disaffection could also make them prime targets for the recruiters who scout the internet sites for sympathetic youth willing to act or advocate for their individual interest.
We'll see if there is some kind of connection with their actions and some larger group, organization, or plot. But, it's clear that there is a pathology behind these two's actions which reflects on serious flaws in their character; despite whatever accomplishments they may have achieved, or whatever personal relationships they may have had. 'Losers' isn't out of mind.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)They won't, but hope springs eternal.
randome
(34,845 posts)I think he did the right thing and it may be enough to keep the media off his back.
Tippy
(4,610 posts)Make a threat against Americans....."you better not do anything to my boys or else"
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)and be suspect because of it, because that's the way of the US. I'd be pissed at any of my relatives if they did something like this, especially if I was Muslim.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)member that does shit. and we say... say wha???
i hope not. from what i am hearing from the man, i think he put it in its place, and i would hope we support that. i think we can.
Amaril
(1,267 posts)I have a cousin who had her husband murdered (murder for hire deal, AND she arranged for it to be done when their children weren't home, but would be the first ones to come home & discover his body) who is now sitting in prison for the rest of her life.
I can't bring myself to harm a spider (and I freaking LOATHE spiders!) much less a human.
We don't get to choose our family. Best we can do is limit -- or eliminate (which is what I've done) -- our contact with them.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)Both appear to have been quite successful. Both in college, as I understand it.
What exactly makes them losers?
deutsey
(20,166 posts)but I've heard reports where he said the older brother (the one who's dead) was the loser. The reporter said the uncle had good things to say about the brother who is still on the run, that he had a scholarship and everyone was proud of him.
But, as I said, that's just what I heard a reporter say. I didn't see the uncle myself.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)have been fine. but an older brother has a lot of influence on a lot of younger siblings.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)He looks like it in pictures of him prior to the bombing.
Sad.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)
with life, religious high road in a conservative manner, reduced to this older son. i get, or can see, how he shifted to this.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)to support, it would eventually weigh heavily on him. His parents left recently, and I'm sure that meant less financial support for him.
He was at the age to get kicked out of the nest if he wasn't working or serious about studies. Apparently he was "retired" from boxing, so what was his focus now?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)for whatever reason.
IMO it's overcompensation for whatever inferiority they felt. It's need to latch onto something bigger than themselves.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)We don't yet know what the motive is, so to suggest that it because they didn't feel successful makes no sense.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)then you don't need to break the law.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)So I wonder how accurate the uncle's information is.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)that people can be pathological losers and have everything materially and all kinds of superficial potential?
Too many examples to list.
Only losers DO this. Never mind anything else.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)parents) and I thought somewhere it said he previously had a kid he wasn't supporting.
From the way he was dressing flashy a few years ago it looks like he had aspirations of big success. What was he doing not working at his age? Didn't see anything about him being in school currently. Last I saw he dropped out for boxing. Maybe his parent leaving left him without a whole lot of support? Seems like he realized it wasn't going to be so easy, and got embittered toward the whole idea of the American Dream. It's not far fetched- men feeling like they have failed to succeed or cannot find a way to support their families have often gone to the brink and taken it out on others.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)to a person they've all said he was well liked.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for the younger brother is the point of being involved.
cali
(114,904 posts)DinahMoeHum
(21,784 posts)convictions until very recently (the past couple of years or so).
With such a blank slate, add alienation, disillusionment, not fitting in, etc., and those two young men, particularly the older brother, were easy meat for religious propagandists on the (spider) Web.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Hell, I never even considered going to prom in HS and the kid had a very busty prom date, from that aspect I'm a far bigger loser than he is or was.
I think it's a lot more complicated than this OP makes it out to be.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)can you avoid "busty" as a big plus for the guy?
You made me think of Busty heart
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)gaspee
(3,231 posts)Don't you know that women are props for men's self-esteem - they should just carry around a freaking card-board cutout.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The "Losers" when I was in school, and I was one of them, didn't have any dates at all, let alone attractive ones. Since the young lady's face was blurred out there wasn't much else that could be used to describe her other than "busty", a characteristic that was pointed out in a very snarky manner by another woman well before I used a more polite term for it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i almost... ALMOST, hated making my reply on your post. but.... it had to be said.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's a fucking miracle I ever had kids.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)your last sentence.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but an obvious baseless pejorative, reflecting on the poster more than the photo. "Busty" used as a plus also for all the reasons I know you know. Accept your
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)now, the good and bad in the net, also. certainly good. but, this feeds the bad.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)because nowadays these guys usually leave a trail of clues online.
And we (the public) need to be vigilant to look for the signs of radicalization on social media.
bigtree
(85,989 posts)You make the most relevant point about their newness to 'Islam' or any nationalistic influences in Chechnya which would have inflamed their passions in some political or religious way that should enjoin any entreaty to pitting us against any nation, for instance, like Bush's call to intimidate the ME with our military forces; or, develop some U.S. fear of Chechens in our midst.
That's why I liked the bent of his statement. Crime committed; turn yourself in. No need to lay all of the Islamaphobia or anything else on top of it (for his sake, and ours, as well).
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)is "over it". Disillusioned sounds right to me.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)with guys who described themselves as friends of the older brother. Are you aware that he was denied the older brother was denied US citizenship because of his domestic assault conviction?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hopes on making it big time as a boxer. Did he go back to school after the Golden Gloves thing didn't work out, or have a job?
I read he also had a child earlier. Was he taking care of the kid or his wife? (wasn't she living with her parents?) Sounds like he was a spoiled brat who bit off more than he could chew. With the cars and flashy clothes, it looks like he aspired to a bougie lifestyle. Sounds like the level of immaturity you get with BPD, it's everyone else's fault your pie on the sky dreams aren't working out. They must be punished.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)In fact, I would say that is true of most of these terrorists. If I can't be big, I'm going to be bad. Pissed off at their own inadequacies and determined to make someone else pay for it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)mood swings and that see things or people as totally idealized one moment and totally horrible the next. They make no concrete plans and latch onto whatever looks like it will give them an identity at the moment.
Was that American drug dealer his best friend or did he not have any American friends? A person with BPD would believe both things to be true at different moments. Was he infatuated with a decadent American lifestyle, or repulsed by it? It seems like both, in turns.
But those in BPD's more extreme end are the extreme narcissists: sociopaths and psychopaths. He was too wrapped up in his own anger to care about his brother to leave him out of it. BPDs feed off people who they can manipulate and control, it seems like he could have felt he was suddenly fighting American culture over his brother's soul.
If he was hating Americans as "not having control", how did he feel about his own failure to build a stable life? He was not disciplined enough to continue school and box, or to work to feed his wife and kids. (I think that's what the uncle meant by loser) In getting involved with extremists, he was creating a whole new identity that would cover his utter lack of coping with the day to day responsibilities.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)That is a man...
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Not from the evidence I've read.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)and takes advantage of that.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I suspect a lot of our social problems have to do with that attitude, if you aren't a Winner then you're a Loser and everyone can't be a Winner or being a Winner is meaningless.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)If you're not a winner you're a loser--there's little in between. So if you're not a winner you must pretend to be.
I see it everywhere.
bigtree
(85,989 posts). . . something which would lead anyone who was subject to these young men's violence to believe they were anything more than what the uncle described.
But, you go ahead and explain how this act of violence has any more meaning outside of the awful carnage and grief. The fellow was trying to push off any thought that he, or his fellow Chechens condone or excuse any of what they've done. He did make a fuller statement that makes a quibble over the use of the term, loser, silly. It was the most condemning word he could think of for a relative.
Sillier, still, to attribute some impression you have about Americans to this recent immigrant.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I've lived in America for more than sixty years and have some idea how things work here.
Talking about "Winners" and "Losers" is not the way to the more egalitarian society that at least some of us would like to see.
bigtree
(85,989 posts). . . maybe he could use a course in egalitarian terminology
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm guessing you've never been labeled a "Loser" or felt yourself as belonging in that category.
bigtree
(85,989 posts)I've described how I feel about the man's statement, word included, at several points in this thread. Read through, if you're interested. You're swatting at your own distaste for the word here. The man is a recent immigrant. 'Loser' was a push back. An attempt to put distance between the violence and he and other Chechens who might draw negative scrutiny and attention.
The rest of his statement was significant to me, because it didn't try and assign any ideology or expression of nationality to the act. 'Loser,' in the context of his statement, was a clear denunciation of the two brothers - as clear as he may have imagined it would convey in our language.
I imagine that he's somewhat unfamiliar with the all of the precepts and etiquette of egalitarian terminology, so, I'm hesitant to ascribe what you describe as American values and intentions to that one word.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm trying to give a different perspective on how the use of language tends to make us think in certain ways.
If you had ever been labeled as a "Loser" you'd be more sensitive to the use of the term.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)his wife or supporting the kid he had earlier? I think he had excuses for not growing up and getting a career going while he had the boxing, but when that was over... and his parents went home, he lost a couple of life lines.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)American culture is remarkably extroverted and if you aren't an extrovert it's often difficult to deal with.
The main reason I'm online a lot is because other than one relative I don't see very often there's not a single person I know who's interested in anything I really care about. I grow amazingly weary of hearing about about sports, hunting, fishing, reality TV shows and other pop culture things, none of them interest me at all and that sort of thing seems to be the only conversation most people are able to have.
Even the weather is now a difficult subject to discuss with a great many people since an argument over global climate change often ensues.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I have to remember to be polite about the reality show stuff I think is stupid and that I have peculiar interests others might think odd.
But the older kid looks like he had a lot of immaturity- chasing the boxing dream and not taking care of the basics. (his kid or wife) I'm going to guess his parents tolerated and helped him financially through the wealth and fame through boxer dream years and when it fell apart for him, it really fell apart. Sounds like he was a cafeteria Islamist until someone pulled him over to be more radical just when he started feeling like he was most vulnerable- feeling like a loser. Easy to reject the American dream when it's just failed you big time.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It can be lonely, but it's a lot less frustrating.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)to see these guys as pathological and also make a comment about the winners/ losers attitudes in America. One is a condition and the other is a stressor relative to the condition. (Not a contradiction)--especially since they have spent 10 formative years in America.
Think about the emphasis on winning in America. And the definitions of winning in America. And how oppressive that attitude can be when you don't meet those definitions. I was a teenager in another country (tho born in and from America) --it is very difficult to fit in. Not that this is in any way an excuse. There is no excuse. But there are reasons that go into creating a sociopath capable of premeditated mass murder. There are plenty of other reasons, but one factor that could legitimately figure into it is the American view of winners and losers. No harm in discussing that.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)you don't play the game. These two played and lost.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And the only way not to play is to be a total hermit.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)the way Alexander the Great cut through the Gordian Knot.
In this country you're a winner or a loser. And if you're not outwardly successful (for a straight male, that means money, a very attractive GF/wife, fancy car, being an outgoing and gladhanding asshole) you're invisible and a zero.
I have been a "loser" all my life despite an Ivy League education because I am both very nerdy and dx'd Aspergers. I've fucking had it with the superficiality and nastiness of American society and am headed for a job in China in a few months. Fuck this country and its superficiality, hypocrisy and ugliness.
You, sir, win the internets for today on the basis of stating pure fact.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)My mother told me she was worried now for the uncles safety. I have to agree with her.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)A "Loser" he may be now but it's pretty damn clear from the pictures he wasn't always that way.
Rex
(65,616 posts)but nothing showed, I will try again. I agree, I don't think anyone starts off as a loser - it is a journey that can end up that way. I don't think it is always a forgone conclusion either - but terrifying innocent people (imo) makes one a loser. In the sense that we are using it, I also don't believe in this binary idea of there are 'winners' and 'losers' and nothing in-between - most of us fall in-between.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)You can be a loser and not blow stuff up. I've known plenty of losers in my life time and mostly they sabotage themselves and not others. A malcontent on the other hand would have an axe to grind if they couldn't adjust to a new life in a different country and culture.
Milliesmom
(493 posts)Well educated, spoke three languages, boxer, life guard, medical student, accomplished piano player, wrestler , well liked by all that knew them, well dressed. The description is on both brothers.
Where did they get their money from, where did the money come from for schooling and training? If the family were rich then why would the mother steal over $1000. worth on clothing? so many questions. Loser is what really bothers me as they had so much going for them, the American dream and were doing so well, the older brother was the one that ruined both their lives by becoming so radical.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)and were beginning to freak out about not being able to keep on their obviously bad spending habits? (Given that I haven't heard anything about them 'working' anywhere yet.)
Would that explain their ATM attempts, then their 7-11 holdup?
Why would they go bezerk upon seeing their pics published everywhere then? Let's go (where?) live the 'Wild-Wild West" Dream to nowhere and kill any law-enforcement dudes who would dare stand in our way?
Doesn't make any sense.
But still, just speculating.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)They both spoke three languages. The older one was a very successful boxer but probably wasn't going anywhere with it. The younger was a high school wrestler. They were both supposedly intelligent, the younger was a pre-med student at UMass (flunking) and the older dropped out of Bunker Hill Community College. The younger was well liked, the older was not liked at all. The older played piano, not sure about the younger. There is a good article on them in the Boston Globe that might paint a clearer picture.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/relatives-marathon-bombing-suspects-worried-that-older-brother-was-corrupting-sweet-younger-sibling/UCYHkiP9nfsjAtMjJPWJJL/story.html
Milliesmom
(493 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)MFM008
(19,806 posts)one 19 one 20. A teenager. When I was 19 the only people I hated were my parents. wtf?
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)GaYellowDawg
(4,446 posts)"Losers" resonates with just about everyone, and is obviously quoteworthy. Took the first opportunity to be as pro-American as he could (shouldn't be necessary, but frankly, is), dissociated Chechens and Muslims from the crime. "Not able to settle themselves, so hated everyone who did" - reminding watchers that the percentage of immigrants who come into the country and do things like this is so small that it almost doesn't exist. Just brilliant, and obviously heartfelt.
I feel really bad for this man and his family. They've been associated with monsters through no fault or actions of their own.