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How is "Shelter in Place" any different than "Martial Law?" (Original Post) NoodleyAppendage Apr 2013 OP
Is anyone being arrested for failing to shelter in place? n/t winter is coming Apr 2013 #1
I suspect that arrest would be likely...if not outright risk of being shot. NoodleyAppendage Apr 2013 #6
I think the risk of being caught in a crossfire or explosion is more likely than arrest. winter is coming Apr 2013 #10
Yes, it's a damn good thing that Boston is handling this much, much better than the LAPD, isn't it? EOTE Apr 2013 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author 11 Bravo Apr 2013 #46
No, you're not the only one MadHound Apr 2013 #2
You don't say.... Bobbie Jo Apr 2013 #33
No, it is NOT the same. Martial law = MILITARY rule Cal Carpenter Apr 2013 #3
Um, yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would not see the difference. randome Apr 2013 #7
Arrested 4Q2u2 Apr 2013 #4
Do you live in Boston? Marrah_G Apr 2013 #5
+1 nt Javaman Apr 2013 #8
Not complaining, so much as trying to figure out when this "shelter in place" became a thing... NoodleyAppendage Apr 2013 #9
When an unstable kid starts running around with bombs and guns Marrah_G Apr 2013 #15
It's a strongly worded suggestion Aerows Apr 2013 #17
I've noticed that. Arkana Apr 2013 #38
Bullshit, many are complaining about lost wages, etc. Read some message boards. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #53
It's a disaster preparedness term. It means essentially that you're safer staying put geek tragedy Apr 2013 #11
Thanks. This is what I was wanting to know. But, does it have legal force? NoodleyAppendage Apr 2013 #19
No idea. Cops will probably yell at you if you walk around. nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #20
Stay off the streets, there's violent guys out versus outright military rule??? NightWatcher Apr 2013 #12
Feel free to go on a walkabout sharp_stick Apr 2013 #13
One is meant to control you, the other is meant to keep you safe Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #14
Redcoats occupying Boston was martial law Generic Other Apr 2013 #16
Not even remotely the same thing. n/t MadrasT Apr 2013 #18
Shelter in place is a safety thing.. SoCalDem Apr 2013 #21
Why is it important to even bring this up when people's lives are in danger. I am really tired of kelliekat44 Apr 2013 #22
Less a slam than just trying to figure out if it has any "force of law" NoodleyAppendage Apr 2013 #24
No, you could not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #43
Don't trust the people who are risking their lives for you! randome Apr 2013 #25
That's about it treestar Apr 2013 #48
They better not use the wrong type of tear gas . . . nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #52
Poor authority. When will it catch a break? cthulu2016 Apr 2013 #56
Shelter in Place reminds me more of weather state of emergencies than martial law justiceischeap Apr 2013 #23
Unrec. How is this different from Alex Jones complaining that the police closed the sidewalk FSogol Apr 2013 #26
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #27
I'd say the risk is imminent and credible. That said, shelter in place is a public safety move. pinto Apr 2013 #31
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #49
Good and useful post. Thanks. /nt Bragi Apr 2013 #55
Sigh.... Floyd_Gondolli Apr 2013 #28
DU needs a "Like" function... Jeff In Milwaukee Apr 2013 #34
Shelter in Place ipfilter Apr 2013 #30
Because you are not bound by any law to stay inside? Rex Apr 2013 #32
"Shelter in place" is a warning used here every time there's refinery fire. Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #35
Um, all it means is "please stay in your houses". Arkana Apr 2013 #36
It's like a tornado siren or an mandatory hurricane evacuation jpak Apr 2013 #37
They asked for our help. We are giving it by staying inside. WilliamPitt Apr 2013 #39
Talking points straight from Alex Jones... SidDithers Apr 2013 #40
Is anybody getting shot? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #41
Grow the fuck up. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #42
I actually lived under martial law for a period Skidmore Apr 2013 #44
Shelter in Peace = "Stay Inside, We're too Busy Protecting You to Babysit You" Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #45
Yes, that is the difference. And a big one. Hekate Apr 2013 #50
Here's another thread malaise Apr 2013 #47
yes. you are the only one. La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2013 #51
BECAUSE ITS DIFFERENT AND YOU ARE A GRGRGGGGG!!11 cthulu2016 Apr 2013 #54
No 2nd amendment militias yet in sight Bragi Apr 2013 #57
"Shelter in Place" is an alert used in CA for rural brush fires for decades now... haele Apr 2013 #58

NoodleyAppendage

(4,619 posts)
6. I suspect that arrest would be likely...if not outright risk of being shot.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:13 AM
Apr 2013

Remember what happened to the two Hispanic women who were unlucky enough to be driving a pick-up truck similar to that being driven by the vigilante cop a month or so ago?

J

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
10. I think the risk of being caught in a crossfire or explosion is more likely than arrest.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:15 AM
Apr 2013

Which could be why they're telling people to stay off the streets.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
29. Yes, it's a damn good thing that Boston is handling this much, much better than the LAPD, isn't it?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:03 PM
Apr 2013

So wouldn't it be best to criticize law enforcement when they actually do fucked up shit like that as opposed to the good and professional way that Boston is handling things now?

Response to NoodleyAppendage (Reply #6)

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
2. No, you're not the only one
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:11 AM
Apr 2013

My wife and I were discussing that this sounds like a kinder, gentler form of martial law.

Cal Carpenter

(4,959 posts)
3. No, it is NOT the same. Martial law = MILITARY rule
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:12 AM
Apr 2013

From the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
Martial law is the imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis.

Martial law is usually imposed on a temporary basis when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, or provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread.

In most of the cases, military forces are deployed to subdue the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order.[1] Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions. In full-scale martial law, the highest-ranking military officer would take over, or be installed, as the military governor or as head of the government, thus removing all power from the previous executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government.[1]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
7. Um, yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would not see the difference.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:14 AM
Apr 2013

But thanks for putting it out there.

 

4Q2u2

(1,406 posts)
4. Arrested
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:12 AM
Apr 2013

I do not believe you get arrested for breaking Shelter in Place. It is a safety precaution. Martial law sets curfews and punishment for breaking AdHoc local mandates. Habeas Corpus is also suspended along with Due Process.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
5. Do you live in Boston?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:13 AM
Apr 2013

Because quite frankly the only people complaining about how our police are handling this are people who don't live here.

NoodleyAppendage

(4,619 posts)
9. Not complaining, so much as trying to figure out when this "shelter in place" became a thing...
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:15 AM
Apr 2013

...and what legal consequences are associated with such an order. Or, is it just a "suggestion?"

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
15. When an unstable kid starts running around with bombs and guns
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:17 AM
Apr 2013

after his actions show he is quite willing to kill innocent people, cops, etc etc.

This is a small compact city with narrow winding streets, where people walk instead of drive, where school kids take public transportation to school.

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
38. I've noticed that.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:11 PM
Apr 2013

Given Boston's structure, a lack of shelter-in-place would make the police's lives even harder, especially if there was another firefight like the one we saw last night.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. It's a disaster preparedness term. It means essentially that you're safer staying put
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:15 AM
Apr 2013

than you are seeking shelter elsewhere.

It's used when our office building (50+ stories) does fire/emergency drills.

NoodleyAppendage

(4,619 posts)
19. Thanks. This is what I was wanting to know. But, does it have legal force?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:19 AM
Apr 2013

Is "shelter in place" associated with any legal consequences should you choose not to follow it?

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
14. One is meant to control you, the other is meant to keep you safe
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:16 AM
Apr 2013

while people attempt to catch assholes who BLOW PEOPLE UP.

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
21. Shelter in place is a safety thing..
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:22 AM
Apr 2013

People who do not evacuate an incoming hurricane are told to shelter in place..

It;s about getting innocents off the streets where they could get into a crossfire situation or cause police to waste time clearing them..

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
22. Why is it important to even bring this up when people's lives are in danger. I am really tired of
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:22 AM
Apr 2013

folks looking for an excuse to slam authority for any damn reason at all.

NoodleyAppendage

(4,619 posts)
24. Less a slam than just trying to figure out if it has any "force of law"
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:25 AM
Apr 2013

For instance, could you be prosecuted for disobeying a "shelter in place" order/suggestion?

J

treestar

(82,383 posts)
48. That's about it
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

I'm waiting for them to start blaming police for killing Tamerlin. They should have taken him alive for trial! It is Extrajudicial execution!

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
23. Shelter in Place reminds me more of weather state of emergencies than martial law
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:23 AM
Apr 2013

When there is a hurricane or snow storm in an area, the governor of said state with declare a weather state of emergency making it a fineable offense to be on the roads. Not only are you putting yourself in danger but first responders as well. So, they tell people to stay off the roads. What's the difference here? Oh, yeah, IEDs, hostages, kids could be killed.

FSogol

(45,357 posts)
26. Unrec. How is this different from Alex Jones complaining that the police closed the sidewalk
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:31 AM
Apr 2013

to investigate the bombing?

or

Response to NoodleyAppendage (Original post)

pinto

(106,886 posts)
31. I'd say the risk is imminent and credible. That said, shelter in place is a public safety move.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:44 PM
Apr 2013

Because risks to the public are clear, imminent and credible. The sequence of events supports that.

(aside) Just heard a report that the sweep has found a "significant" number of home made explosive devices in one house in Watertown (per CNN).

Response to pinto (Reply #31)

ipfilter

(1,287 posts)
30. Shelter in Place
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:05 PM
Apr 2013

is a term used in Government buildings since 9/11. Remember when Homeland Security told everyone to have duct tape and plastic to put over their windows? That's about when the term started being used during drills in Govt buildings.

Words have meaning and Shelter in Place means exactly what it says. It has absolutely nothing to do with Martial Law.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
32. Because you are not bound by any law to stay inside?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 03:47 PM
Apr 2013

Whereas martial law you can be shot if you do not follow orders.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
35. "Shelter in place" is a warning used here every time there's refinery fire.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:08 PM
Apr 2013

It's a strong suggestion for obvious safety reasons when there are pollutants spewing out of a refinery. Unless some agency has DEMANDED that everyone stay in side, that's what it is-- just a suggestion. There are a few people out and about; there are some businesses that are open.

What IS a demand is that no cars can enter the cordoned-off zone.

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
36. Um, all it means is "please stay in your houses".
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:09 PM
Apr 2013

It does not mean "WE ARE GOING TO KICK EVERY MOTHERFUCKING LAST DOOR DOWN AND KILL EVERYONE WE SEE UNTIL WE FIND THIS MOTHERFUCKER."

Christ, the conspiracy theorists are out in full force today.

jpak

(41,742 posts)
37. It's like a tornado siren or an mandatory hurricane evacuation
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:10 PM
Apr 2013

It's called common sense public safety.

ugh

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
40. Talking points straight from Alex Jones...
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:13 PM
Apr 2013

"This Is What Martial Law Looks Like"

No, I'm not linking to his piece of shit site.

Edit: Bobbie Jo beat me to it.

Sid

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
41. Is anybody getting shot?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:14 PM
Apr 2013

That is the easy definition.

Shelter in Place is a term that is international and has been around for at least four decades.

It might be new to you. Other situations when a shelter in place might be issued, remember the fire at a NorCal refinery last year? Due to air quality, the order was issued.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
44. I actually lived under martial law for a period
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:17 PM
Apr 2013

of time in the Shah's final grasp to hold power. Believe me that Bostonians are not experiencing martial law.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
45. Shelter in Peace = "Stay Inside, We're too Busy Protecting You to Babysit You"
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:20 PM
Apr 2013

Martial Law = "I will arrest or shoot you if I see you."

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
54. BECAUSE ITS DIFFERENT AND YOU ARE A GRGRGGGGG!!11
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:14 PM
Apr 2013

People are, in the main, authoritarian stooges who get very very excited by big statist displays with fancy trucks and such.

But partisans only get half the fun because they don't enjoy that stuff whenever the other side is in power.

So a lot of folks missed out on the thrill of being a simple-minded flag-waver under Bush and are making up for lost time.

And they get VERY upset when you point any of this out.

Hence a difference that would have been FUCKING COMICAL under Bush is SUPER OMG DEFINITIVE today.

And you will have it explained to you, at length, how shutting down an entire transit system is not really a limitation on travel and such, and the state telling people to do X is of no concern as long as the state is not actually gunning people down for not doing X.

Bragi

(7,650 posts)
57. No 2nd amendment militias yet in sight
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:27 PM
Apr 2013

The bombings were terrible, and the perps are evil, but I fear this incident answers the question of whether ordinary Americans could ever be convinced to support, or at least comply with, a forcible takeover of their communities by armed government forces.

haele

(12,581 posts)
58. "Shelter in Place" is an alert used in CA for rural brush fires for decades now...
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 06:08 PM
Apr 2013

The "Shelter in Place" notification is given when your only way to get out and about is potentially more dangerous than staying in place or "sheltering" and hoping the authorities (fire department, police, National Guard) can get you out or secure the area your home/shelter is at before the danger can get to you.

We also had a "Shelter in Place" alert when that ex-cop Dorner was suspected of being in the area; pretty much common sense.

But there's nothing keeping you from going out and doing stuff when that alert is made. It's not Martial Law where you can either be jailed or shot on sight for being out.

At most, you'll get stopped and questioned if the authorities see you.

Haele

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