What did we do to Chechnya? Shouldn't these guys be terrorizing Russia?

[DanTex]

[elleng]

1. Family sought asylum here.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

2. Then by all means blow up some kids.

(not aimed at you)

[bklyncowgirl]

3. The Taliban started out by fighting Russians too--with our help--how'd that work out?

These people have their own agenda.

[seabeyond]

33. mmm. i believe russia had a hand in that. lets not give it ALL to u.s. you know,

with their ten year war in afghanistan.

[Zax2me]

4. Chechnya, which has been plagued by an Islamic insurgency

Radical muslims.
What is it to understand?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_CONVERGE_MASS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-04-19-07-09-32

[AnalystInParadise]

5. Here is my take from experience with Chechens in Iraq

First time poster, LONG TIME LURKER.

The thing is if these guys are Chechens then they were possibly radicalized in the U.S. However Chechens have fought American soldiers before. I am a former Army solider, was in Iraq in 2004 and was part of 2nd Fallujah in late 2004. When we went into Fallujah we ran into foreign fighters from over a dozen different countries, we know this because they had ID cards, passports, etc. Chechens were there and they were very skilled fighters, they killed some Marines in an ambush, they fooled us by speaking English, looking American and having rough knockoffs of our uniforms. The Marines killed in the ambush I am talking about were lured into a house by a Chechen pretending to be a wounded Marine, once the Marines were in the house, the house was detonated and destroyed. So if Chechen, it is logical to believe they were radicalized in the U.S.

If Kyrgyz, the same rule applies. There are Kyrgyz Muslims who also fought in Iraq and also in Afghanistan. These young men obviously never did that, but the precedent is there that "their people" if they identify strongly with Kyrgyz radicalism have been fighting Americans. It definitely fits the radicalized Muslim in Western society phenomenon that is seen in Western Europe and to a lesser degree here.

A little bit about me. Retired military, 20 years as an Intelligence Analyst, a contractor now in Hawaii for the DOD. My area of focus as a soldier prior to 9/11 was North Korean Threat Doctrine, my remaining time in the military after 9/11 was Central Asian terrorist groups. My time as a contractor has been in two jobs, one was teaching at the Army Basic Intelligence Analysts Course at Fort Huachuca for two years. Currently, I am an advisior to USARPAC on Intelligence Matters. I look to be a contributor on issues like this.

[DanTex]

6. Thanks for the info, and welcome to DU!

[treestar]

7. Welcome to DU!

[randome]

8. 'Their people' meaning someone of the same religion.

I don't understand why that sparse connection makes some want to kill innocent people.

This is the danger of tying religion to a geographical region or an ethnicity. We don't see Christians rising up because some of those killed in Boston were Christian. We don't see Roman Catholics rising up because some of those killed in Boston were Roman Catholics.

[Dorian Gray]

12. Because they are lunatics

People who want to kill, kill regardless.

[AnalystInParadise]

15. "Their people"

in the sense that many Chechens are fiercely nationalistic, it is conceiveable that these young men became radicalized and perceived that the U.S. is responsible for the deaths of Chechens in Iraq and Afghanistan. Secondly the war with Russia radicalized many Chechens, and the Saudis took advantage of this by sending Wahabi missionaries to Chechnya during the war with Russia. Once the Chechens were radicalized enough, the Wahabbis used their vast network to move weapons and money to Chechnya. It is possible that these young men were seduced by the concept of Holy War for their people. We don't know enough to make that speculation, but it is a likely course of action.

[clyrc]

20. Saudi Wahabis again

doing so much more damage than we ever get to hear about in the US. I'm not anti-Islam, but I am definitely concerned about what the Wahabis are doing in the world.

[FarCenter]

35. CIA was working with the Saudis to foment separatists in Caucasus and Central Asia

This was all part of the US strategy against the USSR starting in the Carter adminstration, continuing under Reagan and Bush I. Prior to this time, Chechens were associated with organized crime in the USSR. Chechen gangs were regarded similar to how we think of the Mafia and Sicilians. So these were no doubt the perfect organizations for the CIA to relate with.

The wars in Chechnya and separatist movements in the 'stans, as well as Uighyur separatists in western China were all supported.

Islamic fundamentalist were seen as religious people fighting godless aethistic communism.

Blowback!

[AnalystInParadise]

37. But

we really focused our efforts on the Ingushetians and the Dagestani's.....until the attack on Grozny in the mid 90's, most American analysts considered the Chechens the country cousins and not capable of armed resistance. We might have used them as go betweens, but we were focused on destabilizing closer to the Russian heartland, not in the "dead space" between Russia and Iran....the dead space in this case is Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Chechnya

[randome]

40. Do you want to kill people who may have wronged someone twenty years before your birth?

This isn't blowback. This is demented individuals who take joy in murdering innocent people.

[FarCenter]

50. Jihad has no time limit

[riderinthestorm]

51. Yes actually. These kinds of "regional wrongs" can have blowback revenge for decades

There are many, many examples from history - from the Crusades to Ireland, the Basques and too many more to list.



The grudge is nurtured within the aggrieved communities. With the right leadership, $$ and backing those grudges can always be fanned into flames (and bombs).

[RobinA]

53. Assuming You Are An American

and therefore a First Worlder who grew up in a stable world and whose parents grew up in a stable world (I certainly am), I don't think you are understanding the results of years, decades, centuries of national instability. The clashes in these countries are institutionalized by now.

[Chan790]

27. European Christians went through the same thing, up until about 2 centuries ago.

The crusades all-in-all lasted the better part of a millennium.

Internicene warfare between Catholics and Protestants was the primary conflict of Western Civilization from the time of the Reformation until the beginning of the 19th c. and played a part as late as the conditions which led to the outbreak of WW I.

We do actually see this sort of Christian uprising rarely to this day, most frequently in less-developed parts of Africa, both Christian vs. Muslim and Christian vs. traditional religions.

[randome]

28. Thanks. I guess I should keep in mind that all religion implies that others are not as 'holy'.

[FarCenter]

43. The Thirty Years War from 1618 to 1648 killed a third of the Germans

It ended with the Peace of Westphalia, which allowed each sovereign to decide which religion his subjects would follow.

The idea that a single nation could encompas people of multiple religions comes later. Even the New England colonies were multiplied by religous differences -- Roger Williams founding Rhode Island and Thomas Hooker founding Connecticut because of religious differences.

Separation of church and state ideas came later in the decades just prior to the Revolution. Separation of church and state is not compatible with Islam.

[Chan790]

44. Separation of state and Islam seems to work fine in Turkey.

So, I guess it can be done. Actually I'm always a little surprised they don't have more problems with religious uprisings.

[AnalystInParadise]

47. Did work fine for Turkey

they are slowly sliding towards a more religious dominated government. Kemal Ataturk invested the power of secular democracy in the hands of the people, and as a last resort the hands of the military. Those days are long gone and a more religious government is starting to flex its muscle.

[FarCenter]

48. It was imposed by the army and Mustafa Kemal Atatürk as part of a more secular European orientation

A more secular form of the Islamic religious faith could be compatible with separation of church and state. It all depends on decreasing religious belief and establishing a society based on rational thinking. Certainly, there were various governments in the Middle East that were trending that way after WW II, but they were generally seen as trending socialist, cozying up to the communists, and therefore have generally been systematically undermined by the US.

You could start with Mohammad Mosaddegh in Iran.

Turkey has been trending Islamist.

[panader0]

9. Ft Huachuca--I live outside Sierra Vista

and once at Hickam too. Welcome to DU.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. Wow, so glad you joined and spoke up!

You're expertise is invaluable and much appreciated here.

Welcome!!!

[Dorian Gray]

13. Thank you for your take

Welcome to DU! This is all info I don't know. My knowledge of the Chechens is limited to resistance against Russia.

[Historic NY]

14. Thanks, good info.

[Yo_Mama]

18. Thanks for info n/t

[Bonobo]

19. I live in Japan and would love to hear your threat assessment of N. Korea. nt

[sikofit3]

22. Me too!

NT

[AnalystInParadise]

24. Well

as soon as I can PM, we can talk about that.....

[Bonobo]

25. I can appreciate the sensitivity of your position.

Thank you.

[Loki]

29. Welcome to DU and thank you.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. Longtime lurker, huh.

.....

[smirkymonkey]

36. Thanks for your informative post!

And welcome to DU!

[slackmaster]

38. That's great information. Thank you for informing the crowd!

[backscatter712]

42. Part of the reason why I'm an atheist.

You're right - It probably is religion. Maybe they're Chechens who were radicalized here, or maybe they were radicalized back in their homeland.

Of course, I do not limit my criticism of religion to Islam (which deserves a hell of a lot of criticism) - there are plenty of Christians, Jews, Mormons, etc. that also behave just as insanely.

See my signature...

[RobinA]

55. I'm An Atheist Too

But in cases like this I think if it weren't religion it would be something else. Humans are pack animals down in the reptilean brain, and they will always manage to find samenesses and differences to organize around.

[Duer 157099]

49. Thanks for posting

and stepping out from lurk status

Look forward to more of your expertise around here.

[riderinthestorm]

52. Welcome to DU! Your "voice" is most welcome here. nt

[AsahinaKimi]

54. Welcome

to DU!

[frylock]

57. good info. welcome to the board.

[ananda]

10. I don't get it either.

I mean.. Boston?

[Yo_Mama]

16. We're the Great Satan

Besides, they were here.

I really think they bombed the marathon because it was convenient and they knew there would be great media coverage.

[Cal Carpenter]

17. They didn't come here from Chechnya to do this

They have lived here for a decade, from what I've read, and they are young, so they are actually pretty much as American as they are Chechen.

I hope we do find out the motivation here, but it may or may not have to do with Chechnya.

[Bucky]

21. Chechens and other oppressed Caucusus Muslims have done plenty of terror in Russia.

But people who do stuff like this aren't rational. They're unrooted, angry (possibly a misdirection of anger over family violence), out of touch with social or moral connections to fellow humans, and willing to do any evil to make their mark on a world they think doesn't care about them and which they don't have any control over.

If the family came to America, that doesn't mean they put down roots or found stability or didn't move back and forth without a sense of home. The younger brother still on the loose has apparently had some military training and has only been in the US a year. So we're talking about a family torn apart by the violence in the Caucuses. Hurt people hurting people.

[SoCalDem]

45. They have been here TEN years....not one year.. (insta-media is often wrong)

That said, there could be many "reasons" they did this... Only they know for sure..

[Enrique]

23. this is prejudicial thinking, imo

yes, there are Chechen separatists fighting against Russia, it doesn't mean all Chechens "should" be motivated by that conflict.

[AnalystInParadise]

26. Well

There are also a few hundred Chechens fighting us in Afghanistan and I was in combat against Chechens in Iraq almost ten years ago. No they aren't all motivated to fight or engage in terrorism, but far too many of them are. And they are especially good at indoctrinating young men to engage in acts of terror.

[Demo_Chris]

30. No expert, but...

It has seemed to me (prior to this) that Chechen radicals are far more imaginative in terms of the types of attacks, and bloodthirsty in terms of the what they are willing to do. I suspect this has something to do with the absolute brutality of the Russian occupation there. I have been concerned for a long time about terrorists of this caliber operating here.

[Enrique]

31. but we're not Russia

so it's a different conflict, and isn't it true that some of the Chechens fighting in both those wars are simply mercenaries?

[AnalystInParadise]

34. Well yes, but mercenary has a different meaning in a jihad

They are soldiers of God fighting infidels. Americans and Russians have both killed Chechens, in the eyes of many Chechen "holy warriors" there is no difference.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

39. Don't you know?

'Murica is evil, we be blamed for everything.

[apnu]

41. According to the link here a small percentage of Chechnians have been radicalized.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/chechnya-boston-marathon-bombing-90329.html

Not that this at all explains the Boston Bombers' motivations, not even a little bit. It is a stab in the dark.

[bushisanidiot]

46. They may have been born in Chechnya, but they were americans and

didnt' even have accents anymore. They went to school here and most described them as normal.
I think what we see online should be taken with a grain of salt as we can't verify that they
wrote it or created it. anyone can hack someone's account. hand written notes, however, can be more easily verified.

[El Fuego]

56. They're just classic young male loser psychotics

No different from any other mass shooter. Don't glamorize them because they happen to be foreign. They're not even representing any government or twisted cause, just their own depravity.