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I'm watching the news from Texas and it seems like no one is too upset. It is worse than Boston but (Original Post) upaloopa Apr 2013 OP
If you are talking about the fertilizer factory fire Bluzmann57 Apr 2013 #1
Accident? Johnny2X2X Apr 2013 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author Bluzmann57 Apr 2013 #24
A tragedy is a tragedy, but people view intentional murder differently than an accident. Poll_Blind Apr 2013 #2
One was an attack against civilians, and another a terrible accident. Is is too hard to figure out still_one Apr 2013 #3
I think some people here live to shovel out the snark! More people are dead in Texas. Homes are upaloopa Apr 2013 #12
Some people always are. They were also doing that with the Boston incident also. However, most still_one Apr 2013 #14
Fertilizer explosions and grain elevator explosions happen more often there. Lint Head Apr 2013 #4
The Texas accident was preventable, ,but folks there made up their mind geek tragedy Apr 2013 #5
So the victims of the Texas blast pretty much had it coming? Paladin Apr 2013 #7
Not the victims themselves, but the people of Texas voted for this tragedy. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #10
How did they vote for it when they don't even know the cause? cynatnite Apr 2013 #25
Government regulation and inspections prevent this kind of tragedy. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #26
As I said, we don't know the cause as of yet... cynatnite Apr 2013 #27
They allowed schools and homes to be built right next to a fertilizer plant. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #29
For Chrissakes, get it out of your system. (nt) Paladin Apr 2013 #30
Oh for shit's sake... cynatnite Apr 2013 #31
Was there a nursing home and a middle school across the street geek tragedy Apr 2013 #32
It's a SMALL town...everything is close together... cynatnite Apr 2013 #33
It is amazing how obtuse some people can be. joeglow3 Apr 2013 #78
Victim blaming LittleBlue Apr 2013 #79
Irksome, isn't it? (nt) Paladin Apr 2013 #83
It's not worse BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #6
How is there a rational explanation for it? We don't know what caused it yet. sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #11
Do you really need this explained to you? BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #13
I don't need anything explained to me. I would like to know why that factory blew up. sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #18
I agree Sabrina. These plants should not be so close to nursing homes anneboleyn Apr 2013 #73
Exactly, thank you! sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #84
My god, it's a tragic industrial accident nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #16
My god, so was the Gulf Oil spill except it was also negligence. People died because someone sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #19
I'm with you on this if I understand the situation. If there were no zoning in place, then byeya Apr 2013 #22
Drive to Los Angeles, and check the distance between the homes nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #39
That sucks too, and there are activists who are trying to change that. Cleita Apr 2013 #46
I was talking of the zoning laws nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #47
Texans don't really believe that much in zoning and Cleita Apr 2013 #50
Care to get it from horses month. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #40
The fire despatch reports on the event itself, it tells us nothing, because they do not know sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #49
Yes, yes it does nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #56
I don't know, I did not know what caused the Gulf Oil Spill, although there were speculations, sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #63
You are comparing apples and oranges nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #65
Accident vs. somebody trying to kill lots of innocent people. Really? TwilightGardener Apr 2013 #8
I think perhaps the point is the number of dead and injured. WinkyDink Apr 2013 #34
The number of Americans terrorized by the bombings FreeState Apr 2013 #43
But that goes to our own faulty risk assessment, doesn't it? antigone382 Apr 2013 #81
It seems to be an accident not a terrorism act, however, Cleita Apr 2013 #9
I am going to agree that it was an accident but my guess is that it will be found that it was an upaloopa Apr 2013 #15
Senior citizens and children died/were injured in Texas jmowreader Apr 2013 #28
I spent two winters in Texas working as a cave guide. Cleita Apr 2013 #44
Complained about an ag fertilizer and chemical plant when Downwinder Apr 2013 #17
One was terrorism the other caused by Ayn Rand sycophants. Kingofalldems Apr 2013 #20
I tend to agree with that. I hope a lesson is learned but I doubt it will. I wonder if the people upaloopa Apr 2013 #23
Grief is not a contest blogslut Apr 2013 #35
I think that both tragedies are terrible. Beacool Apr 2013 #36
Hey, I live in TX, and I don't think there's an issue. Daemonaquila Apr 2013 #37
Wow guns killing kids not an issue, chemical plants on fire not an issue HangOnKids Apr 2013 #38
+1000 from a former Texas part time resident. n/t Cleita Apr 2013 #48
'Because it happens so often'. Sort of how were almost becoming immune to mass murders sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #52
Middle of Nowhere vs Short Trip from the Major News Center Retrograde Apr 2013 #41
Where in the hell did this "It's a zoning failure" nonsense come from? nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #42
Because it's a zoning failure. Any business that has the chance of blowing up Cleita Apr 2013 #51
Where does that put fuel stations? octothorpe Apr 2013 #54
Oh, slam! Cleita Apr 2013 #55
Valid points.... octothorpe Apr 2013 #62
It WAS zoned heavy industry... (cont) Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #66
Oh, c'mon, I play Sims. Cleita Apr 2013 #67
Okay... here's what happens Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #69
I've lived in many states but mostly California, Idaho and Texas. Cleita Apr 2013 #72
Here's what I think... Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #80
Good Old Boys has a lot to do with the situation in Texas. Cleita Apr 2013 #82
Sad isn't it. nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #85
I do, the easement outside my window nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #68
nice nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #70
The line precedes both the apartment and the YMCA nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #71
Kind of interesting... Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #74
I can tell you they have not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #75
I dunno--there are already MANY established beats for the Boston area, so lots and lots of coverage librechik Apr 2013 #45
In addition to the purpose vs. accident, maybe it's also 'cause more people can relate to the Boston octothorpe Apr 2013 #53
Through Hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes, how many gas stations have blown up? Cleita Apr 2013 #57
I recall at least one exploding last year... I was trying to remember exactly where octothorpe Apr 2013 #61
You can ignite fires with smoking and static electricity which would ignite fumes Cleita Apr 2013 #64
Because we can't assign a mental image of a perpetrator to this event Taverner Apr 2013 #58
Accident versus intentional. Blue_In_AK Apr 2013 #59
Exactly. Intentional is ... YvonneCa Apr 2013 #60
We've got a worthless POS for governor Rex Apr 2013 #76
There is a reason that it is called "terror" Horse with no Name Apr 2013 #77
I think it's because people are so much more familiar with Boston susanr516 Apr 2013 #86
i think it's because it's like the Shooting Deaths V Car Accident Deaths JI7 Apr 2013 #87
I expected nobody to be dead for some reasons. I guess because I assumed it was an accident. applegrove Apr 2013 #88

Bluzmann57

(12,336 posts)
1. If you are talking about the fertilizer factory fire
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:41 AM
Apr 2013

It may be because the fire was a tragic accident. And Boston was an act of terrorism.

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
21. Accident?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:24 AM
Apr 2013

Yes, an accident, but considering how the agencies regulated these dangerous chemicals have been gutted by the RWers, this was likely a preventable accident.

Can't have those anti capitalist regulatory agencies interfering with a big comany's right to make enormous profits.

Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #21)

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
2. A tragedy is a tragedy, but people view intentional murder differently than an accident.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:43 AM
Apr 2013

This cuts both ways, obviously. A great example of this is the Bhopal disaster. From what I'd read and seen, Union Carbide's negligence in the matter was so great, the line between MIHOP and LIHOP (or something like that, using 9/11 terms) becomes heavily blurred.

PB

still_one

(91,965 posts)
3. One was an attack against civilians, and another a terrible accident. Is is too hard to figure out
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:44 AM
Apr 2013

the difference?

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
12. I think some people here live to shovel out the snark! More people are dead in Texas. Homes are
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:56 AM
Apr 2013

destroyed. Hundreds are injured. But hey shit happens!

still_one

(91,965 posts)
14. Some people always are. They were also doing that with the Boston incident also. However, most
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:04 AM
Apr 2013

DUers are not that way.

If you look at the posts, you will see that most express sympathy and sadness toward the WACO community where the blast occurred.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
4. Fertilizer explosions and grain elevator explosions happen more often there.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
Apr 2013

They are usually not as big as the West Texas one and not always reported nationally.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
5. The Texas accident was preventable, ,but folks there made up their mind
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
Apr 2013

a long time ago that it's worse to regulate business than prevent catastrophes like this.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
10. Not the victims themselves, but the people of Texas voted for this tragedy.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:53 AM
Apr 2013

This is the bitter fruit of the "regulation of business is evil" tree that has been planted and nurtured by Texas's government and the people who elected the legislators responsible.

The reason you won't see much outrage is that outrage would mean re-examining the rightwing values and policies by which Texans govern themselves.

Ain't gonna happen. People would rather sacrifice their fellow citizens' lives than re-examine their own assumptions.

See the resistance to common sense gun safety measures.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
25. How did they vote for it when they don't even know the cause?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:33 AM
Apr 2013

Besides, not all of them are repub. Does that mean only the repubs had it coming? What about the children? Did they deserve it?

I always find this line of thinking repugnant.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
26. Government regulation and inspections prevent this kind of tragedy.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:37 AM
Apr 2013

In Texas, they don't believe in things like zoning laws and restrictions on businesses.

The victims didn't bring this upon themselves. But this was created by the philosophy of "government is the problem."

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
27. As I said, we don't know the cause as of yet...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:40 AM
Apr 2013

Whether it was a result of deregulation or lack of inspections...that won't be known for a while yet.

More information is needed before we can lay blame anywhere.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
31. Oh for shit's sake...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:47 AM
Apr 2013

We lived near a grain silo and a fertilizer plant at the hometown I grew up in as a kid. These are small towns with a large agriculture community. You will find this all over the country.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
32. Was there a nursing home and a middle school across the street
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:50 AM
Apr 2013

from a place that makes ingredients used in bombs?

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
33. It's a SMALL town...everything is close together...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:55 AM
Apr 2013

My high school was in walking distance. The hospital was just a few blocks away from our house.

These towns are small. West is only a few thousand people. My town was only 1200. This is called SMALL TOWN AMERICA.

Geez.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
79. Victim blaming
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:29 PM
Apr 2013

Nice one. Whether they actually agreed or voted with those policies or not, they died and it's partly their fault.

Right.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
11. How is there a rational explanation for it? We don't know what caused it yet.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:53 AM
Apr 2013

If it was negligence due to lack of proper safety precautions then I don't see much difference.

Human beings are dead in both incidences. I doubt the victims are thinking about the political distinctions right now.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
18. I don't need anything explained to me. I would like to know why that factory blew up.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:11 AM
Apr 2013

Was it human error, lack of regulations to protect workers, just a freak accident?

At this point we only know it was a terrible, tragic event but we do not know what caused it.

Let me explain. In the Gulf Oil Spill, 11 men died (I know we never mention them but they did die). Afterwards we found out that cost cutting caused the explosion. That it could have been prevented. Money before lives.

If you KNOW you are placing people in danger but you think less of those lives than you do of your profit margin, imo, you are a criminal.

Words, 'terror' 'murder' 'criminallly negligent homicide' the results are the same, people die.

As Shakespeare said 'what's in a name, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, you might not have intended to kill anyone, but you go to jail anyhow.

There is a distinction between 'murder' and 'criminally negligent homicide in the law' of course, but both are crimes.

We do not know what caused the Texas tragedy yet. It is right now a horrible tragedy.

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
73. I agree Sabrina. These plants should not be so close to nursing homes
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:59 PM
Apr 2013

and apartment complexes. It should be made known whether or not budget cuts and/or deregulation contributed to such a horrific fire and explosion and so many dead and injured --including firefighters who were on the scene fighting the initial fire when the explosion occurred.

And it is not an excuse to say "it is a small town" as the issue is that the factory is too close to a residential area just in terms of the raw numbers. Period. The size of the town is irrelevant; plants that deal in extremely dangerous chemicals are theoretically supposed to be far enough away from homes, schools, and nursing homes to avoid just this sort of tragedy.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
16. My god, it's a tragic industrial accident
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:06 AM
Apr 2013

Involving an oxidizer and water. It was as bad as it was 'cause water ain't the best thing to put off all fires.

It's a tragedy, but it's not something done on purpose

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
19. My god, so was the Gulf Oil spill except it was also negligence. People died because someone
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:21 AM
Apr 2013

thought nothing would happen if they didn't spend a little money, or maybe they were too uniformed to know that they needed to spend that money to protect lives.

We know NOTHING right now, only what our absolutely totally trustworthy Corporat MSM tells us. Just like initially that's all we knew about the Gulf Oil Spill.

If you don't mind, I will reserve judgement based on anything the Corporate MSM tells me.

 

byeya

(2,842 posts)
22. I'm with you on this if I understand the situation. If there were no zoning in place, then
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:28 AM
Apr 2013

the widespread death and destruction would have been impossible in most parts of the country where the land use is regulated.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
46. That sucks too, and there are activists who are trying to change that.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:05 PM
Apr 2013

Los Angeles already has had several fires in those refineries and one of these days one of those fire is going to go rogue and burn up a good part of the residential areas surrounding it. Wait and see. However, that being said those refineries are heavily regulated something that doesn't happen so much in the smaller rural communities of Texas.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
47. I was talking of the zoning laws
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:06 PM
Apr 2013

Not regulations.

People are hung up in it's Texas. No, it's all over

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
50. Texans don't really believe that much in zoning and
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:09 PM
Apr 2013

those refineries in Los Angeles were grandfathered in back from the days before Los Angeles had much in the way of zoning laws either. You won't see any new ones going up in the city or even county limits today.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
49. The fire despatch reports on the event itself, it tells us nothing, because they do not know
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:08 PM
Apr 2013

anything, about what CAUSED it. That happens later when the Fire Dept does its normal investigation of a fire site, and others will be involved in the investigation also.

All we know now is that it happened. We don't why.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
56. Yes, yes it does
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:26 PM
Apr 2013

But I guess it takes a trained ear in this shit.

I will leave it at that. Have a good day

Though mark my words, the officials will place a good size of the blame on the initial response,

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
63. I don't know, I did not know what caused the Gulf Oil Spill, although there were speculations,
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:37 PM
Apr 2013

until after the investigations and the reports that exposed the fact that those in charge KNEW they had a potential dangerous situation but chose to do nothing about it, to save money.

First Responders are not privy, trained ear or not, to what transpires in the board rooms of major corporations. They may determine the physical cause of a tragic event like this, but they have no idea what corporate decisions were made that led to the circumstances they may have identified.

I think it's more than likely the initial response AND workers will be blamed. That is why we need to have thorough investigations so we can find out whose decisions if any, led to the circumstances where the workers were placed in dangerous positions and first responders are not expected to be scientists.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
65. You are comparing apples and oranges
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:51 PM
Apr 2013

Explosions at silos and fertilizer plants are not that rare. There are written, extensive mind you, protocols to respond to both. The causes of both is actually well known and understood by even first responders.

I carry on my phone the DOT placard system, and a database of those numbers. I used a notebook with those back in the dark ages.

The accident on the gulf had unprecedented written all over it.

I can almost predict what started the initial fire, I can tell you water was the wrong choice in this case on the chemicals themselves, though using spray at low pressure to cool down other tanks that are closed is part of it. Water is the wrong choice on the chemical itself since it will react in a fast oxidizing reaction, that is fast and exothermic, what you saw was the end result of it, we call it a very energetic kinetic event, English, explosion.

Larger FD tell initial responders to stand back while HAZMAT with the proper chemicals gets on scene.

Heck we had a turbine fire at an SDG&E distribution node nine months ago. They had a contractor fire department respond with the proper chemicals. My large, urban fire department lacks the exact Chemical, so we watch a plume of very dark, toxic smoke go up into the sky, while the private contractors came in, took them almost an hour. Care to guess why water was a wrong choice in a still energized and burning turbine?

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
34. I think perhaps the point is the number of dead and injured.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:00 PM
Apr 2013

This is why I oppose monetary compensation for only one officially-designated "proper" victim/survivors.

FreeState

(10,553 posts)
43. The number of Americans terrorized by the bombings
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:42 PM
Apr 2013

far out number those that lost their lives at the chemical explosion of the fertilizer plant. People react differently because one had no motive and the other had a motive to spread fear, misunderstanding and terror.

They are both however tragic and devastating.

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
81. But that goes to our own faulty risk assessment, doesn't it?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:40 PM
Apr 2013

Why aren't Americans everywhere terrified about the risks of catastrophic industrial accidents in poorly zoned communities? Why aren't we terrified of exploding underground natural gas pipelines or oil spills that can contaminate our land and water and poison us? Clearly the risk is not negligible. Clearly the key decision-makers involved in protecting us from such catastrophes are prioritizing factors other than our safety.

Yes, clearly, there is also a difference between knowingly endangering people and actively seeking to harm them, but the consequences for human life and health are not very divergent. We should be terrified, outraged, and demanding action to prevent such destruction and loss of life, which statistically is a much more likely risk than that of dying in a terrorist attack. Yet we are not.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
9. It seems to be an accident not a terrorism act, however,
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 10:52 AM
Apr 2013

people should be outraged by the lack of zoning and regulation that probably led to the tragedy, IMHO.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
15. I am going to agree that it was an accident but my guess is that it will be found that it was an
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:05 AM
Apr 2013

accident that was just waiting to happen because of lack of regulations being in place. It is only a WAG on my part at this time but I think it will be a cover up . Also the Boston thing plays to the sympathies because of the marathon and the up scale thing to it. The masses in Texas don't matter as much.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
28. Senior citizens and children died/were injured in Texas
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:41 AM
Apr 2013

If you want an outpouring of public sympathy quick, throw dead Precious Babies and Beloved Grandmas into it.(Works for us, anyway.)

I find it more than interesting that when they have an industrial accident in Texas it levels the town.

(Fun fact: there are two memorials to the Texas City Disaster. One features a five ton anchor from the Grandcamp. The other features a two ton anchor from the Grandcamp and the propeller from the High Flyer. Those things were blown off their ships and parks were built where they landed.)

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
44. I spent two winters in Texas working as a cave guide.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:57 PM
Apr 2013

I was amazed at the lack of concern for the safety of the patrons by the owners of the attraction, but apparently there were few regulations regarding it. During heavy rains the caves would flood and one of the owners once got trapped in one and barely was able to swim out. The nearby town had a goat pasture in the middle of it and the downtown area was a hodgepodge of residents and businesses. There was a building with visible cracks in the columns that held up the second floor yet all the spaces were rented out and doing business.

When I asked about these things, I was told there wasn't any zoning regulations, hence the goats. People should know the risks of going into caves and know what they are getting into. They don't have earthquakes so the building was holding up good enough and the building department only really looks at new building anyway. So. I would say, if Waco or that little town that it actually happened in had the lack of concern that the town I was familiar with did, it was an accident waiting to happen and unfortunately the elderly and children, were the innocent victims.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
17. Complained about an ag fertilizer and chemical plant when
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:07 AM
Apr 2013

Hightower was Ag. Commissioner. Legislature took the authority away from him and Repugs took over the office.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
23. I tend to agree with that. I hope a lesson is learned but I doubt it will. I wonder if the people
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 11:31 AM
Apr 2013

of Texas feel that they have any control over these kinds of things or can they put two and two together. I'm afraid that what happened in Texas this week will be quietly investigated and years from now there will be a book written about it that no one will read and there will be another tragedy and another just like gun violence.

Life is cheap I guess. Sigh

Beacool

(30,244 posts)
36. I think that both tragedies are terrible.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:08 PM
Apr 2013

Boston is more infuriating because it was a deliberate act against people watching a race. There are few more wholesome activities to attack than a marathon. Many of the runners run for charity and there are so many children watching. It's evil to attack such an event.

The explosion in West appears to be an accident. Unfortunately, the casualty count is even higher than in Boston.

This has not been a good week for the US.

My heart and thoughts are with all the victims.

 

Daemonaquila

(1,712 posts)
37. Hey, I live in TX, and I don't think there's an issue.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:10 PM
Apr 2013

Taking it to a cynical level, Texas is kind of used to chemical plants blowing up. If you've ever driven through the gulf coast especially, you see towns of people who've been through major fires, explosions, leaks, etc. People are shocked over a terror attack, but not over something that happens way, WAY too frequently in this area. The WTF is better aimed at why Texans don't finally get fed up and demand better regulation and accountability.

Just this morning, a friend who used to live in Texas City told me about growing up among 7-8 chemical plants. There would be a fire every so often, and everyone had bug-out bags ready that they'd grab and take off in case of a major spill or explosion. They couldn't stand outside in the rain because of the chemicals it would bring down and burn their skin. The burns on the refineries would look nice and clean during the day, but at night they'd smell all kinds of dirty emissions, and would wake up with soot all over their cars.

So, it sucks and we're worried about the people in the area, but in the end it doesn't feel all that surprising. Sadly, a lot of Texans are looking at Google this morning and planning how to avoid I-35 in that area, but not much more.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
38. Wow guns killing kids not an issue, chemical plants on fire not an issue
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:12 PM
Apr 2013

Exactly what is an issue for you?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
52. 'Because it happens so often'. Sort of how were almost becoming immune to mass murders
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:15 PM
Apr 2013

in this country. And that is why they continue, the explosions that kill people, oil rigs blowing up, workers dying, mass murders increasing, because we eventually become accepting of them. Like other countries get used to bombings et.

Soon people will go to McDonalds wearing protection clothing and just go about their business as if it is normal.

Things reach this stage of apathy, even about their own lives, when they live in a country where life is cheap.

I guess I thought we lived in a nation that valued life, but I don't think that at all anymore.

Maybe some day.

Retrograde

(10,073 posts)
41. Middle of Nowhere vs Short Trip from the Major News Center
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 12:23 PM
Apr 2013

Which one is easiest to get cameras and news crew to? The closer to a big urban center, the more attention tragedies get - especially when they're close to NYC. Besides, it's easier to gen up some rah-rah anti-terrorism hoopla around some unknown - and possibly Arabic - suspects than against a corporation flouting safety rules.

Yeah, I'm feeling cynical this morning.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
51. Because it's a zoning failure. Any business that has the chance of blowing up
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:11 PM
Apr 2013

needs to be in an area zoned for industrial use. They should be banned from any area that has homes and businesses that don't have a chance of blowing up.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
55. Oh, slam!
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:25 PM
Apr 2013

That is not cool! However, I once worked in a building next to a gas station and I can assure you they are so heavily regulated, well here in California anyway, that there is a better chance of a car on the road catching fire than any of them. It would take a bomb to set a gas station on fire. Also, if you've noticed, they are always on corners. That isn't for the convenience of customers but for the fire department being able to reach one just in case directly from two directions.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
66. It WAS zoned heavy industry... (cont)
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:55 PM
Apr 2013

But using your criteria no homes would be allowed within a mile of any rail line, gas station, harbor, paint store, refinery, gas pipeline, or any of a hundred other business. This is a SINGLE rail car explosion. ONE CAR:




In fact, I would hazard a guess and say that unless you live in some hyper-affluent mansion district odds, are good YOU live well within the danger zone for something horrific and likely don't have a clue. Hell, I had no idea I had an 8" gas main running right in front of my home until some contractors hit it with a backhoe. The only warning I had was the sirens of lots of fire trucks stopping near my house. I walked out my front door, expecting to see a fire down the street, and instead I saw a dozen firetrucks and cop cars and ambulances blocking the street and astonished firemen looking at me from a hundred yards away. No one even thought to knock on my door and warn me to run -- I guess they were writing me off or something. There was so much "invisible" gas pouring out of this hole, not thirty feet from wherre I was standing, that you could actually see it!

The contractors were in such a hurry to get back that they actually crashed into my car making their getaway. I was damn lucky.

Accidents and disasters and catastrophes happen sometimes. The last word is key... sometimes. Sometimes you get in a car crash, sometimes you get cancer, sometimes a school gets shot up, sometimes a train explodes or leaks, sometimes your heart explodes at age 30... sometimes. But usually not, or we wouldn't be here.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
67. Oh, c'mon, I play Sims.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:59 PM
Apr 2013

I do live in a rural area prone to brush fires and earthquakes. It's Mother Nature and I can't do anything about it, but I have lived in the big city and a combination of regulations and zoning keeps us from having some really big disasters when Big Mama decides to shake and bake.

If it was zoned for industrial, WTF were there residential buildings in the area? It seems also to be a lack of enforcement of the zoning laws, which still make it a zoning problem.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
69. Okay... here's what happens
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:39 PM
Apr 2013

Note: not a zoning expert -- this is based on my experiences hunting for property zoned industrial or heavy industrial in multiple Texas towns:

1. Basically everything along rail lines is heavy industry. I suspect this is the case everywhere in the country.

2. Towns grow in spurts. You can track this by looking at any zoning map. The older the town, the more industrial zones you find. These are often places that once were on the outskirts of town, but the towns have expanded to surround them.

3. From my limited experience the zoning people do NOT want to see new businesses move into these buildings -- they want them to move into the newer industrial parks outside of town. Even though I wasn't opening anything even remotely hazardous, poluting, or waste producing, they had all kinds of laws on the books designed to make the existing vacant property unusable.

For example, one town I looked into mandated a parking space for every 125 square feet of building space, which meant a 20,000 square foot warehouse required a parking lot like a Walmart. The industrial park outside of that same town was exempted. They did this because they knew that none of the existing industrial buildings in town had a parking lot like that. And that's just one of a dozen creative regulations we ran into. In another town, the building inspector refused to count any exit that wasn't on ground level -- and by this I mean exits onto loading docks or stairs didn't count. In one building we looked at he refused to count a ground level exit at the rear of the building because the property was fenced. The idea that there are no regulations and towns allow anything anywhere is simply not true.

I have even seen (not in Texas but it could happen anywhere) a case where the business owner opened outside the city limits, on county land, and the city voted to expand their borders just to bring this one business under city juristiction and shut the business down.

Texas IS business friendly in this respect: It takes about 10 minutes to go through the paperwork to open a business, and the state has people who bend over backwards to help you with your paperwork and manage your taxes. They have teams of these people and they are very helpful. But that's at the state level, at the local level not even close. Go into most towns and you immediately encounter a brick wall. The planning and zoning offices are inevitably staffed by hundred-year-old fozzils who's only job is telling new businesses "NO!" You would think you were trying to open a bordello in a grade school.

Nor does it stop there. If you think zoning is a bitch, wait until you meet the fire marshal and the building inspectors. I won't even go into the process there, but consider just this: after learning that I had personally applied fire retardant to EVERY surface and piece of cloth in my building rather than hiring the fire department to do it for me (and this in a building with a commecial fire suppression system, a commerical hand held extinguisher in every room, and an evacuation plan that allowed the entire facility to be evacuated within 90 seconds assuming an exit was blocked) he went around with one of those propane torches attempting to light things on fire. Yes, really, the guy went around with a torch trying to light my stuff on fire.

Anticipating the stairs issue for emergency exits, I built a ramp at the rear of the building. Good thinking, right? But code (which didn't require a ramp in the first place by the way) wasn't good enough for my safety conscious building inspector. He came up with the idea that someone running at full speed, blinded or something, might collide with the railing and tumble over the top to their doom three feet below. So we had to replace the railing with a special wall that would contain our sprinting evacuees. Nor did it end there.

I will end there. The point it simply this: the idea that because it's Texas you can just do whatever you like, wherever you feel like it, is flat out ridiculous. That might be the case if you are Exxon, but a company like Exxon can do whatever they like in ANY state.



Cleita

(75,480 posts)
72. I've lived in many states but mostly California, Idaho and Texas.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:49 PM
Apr 2013

California has the toughest laws and we have our share of disasters, but they could have been so much worse without tough zoning and regulations. Even Exxon has to behave here more so than they do in other states. They are dying to do off shore drilling, but Californians are fighting them and others every inch of the way. Texas is pretty lax, not as lax as Idaho, but lax. I think one of the reasons you don't hear much about Idaho is that most of it is rural or wilderness and you just don't hear anything about the disasters, like guys getting chewed up in a wood chipper in a mill, which seemed to happen with alarming frequency when I lived there and I won't even talk about the dangers of logging or fighting forest fires.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
80. Here's what I think...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:36 PM
Apr 2013

And I am NO expert so it's a guess...

But I think what pretty much wherever you go the local regulations you find are based on national standards put out by various safety organizations. National fire safety groups and what not. And I suspect that where you find exceptions it is because:

1. The businesses were there long before the new standards
2. There is one set of rules for the Good Old Boys and another for everyone else

What bothers me with this accident is the claim that this was somehow a Texas thing caused by some Texas lack of regulation. I am a native Californian, I haven't lived here long, and to be honest I hate the place far more than I thought I would, but I just don't like this kind of broad brushing -- particularly when the people doing it adopt a superior tone and claim that such a thing could NEVER happen in their enlightened neck of the woods. As if the old boys club doesn't exist in their communities, no one there would ever dream of skimping on safety when they can, and mistakes and oversights and accidents are confined to GOP districts in red states.

So if I sound defensive that's why -- I don't like smug self-satisfied jerks at the best of times, and there has been a whole lot of that going around. NOT YOU, but you have no doubt seen the comments yourself and know exactly what I am talking about.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
82. Good Old Boys has a lot to do with the situation in Texas.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:43 PM
Apr 2013

One rule for the horsey types and another rule for those who are browner or who don't sit a horse well. In Idaho, it's outsiders and many of them monied Californians of the conservative persuasion who find the lack of regulations and laws refreshing. They found a rural people who did business with a handshake and took care of each other as a community without much being written down as law, just an understanding. They nearly wet themselves over the fact that they didn't have to have messy stuff like contracts and regulations and they have badly taken advantage of that and of the locals.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
71. The line precedes both the apartment and the YMCA
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 02:48 PM
Apr 2013

What worries me s not the pipe, but the ground under it...liquefaction comes to mind

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
74. Kind of interesting...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:06 PM
Apr 2013

After the last mega explosion wherever the hell that was, the local gas company here (theoretically) went through every line in the city and put sleeves inside the lines to reinforce them. They even did the small line going to my house. If I understand it correctly it was some kind of plastic insert. Maybe they have done that where you live as well.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
75. I can tell you they have not
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:08 PM
Apr 2013

But the water mains are breaking all over.

I am waiting with baited breath for the next section, for well...file photos.

Damn the last break was at night.

librechik

(30,663 posts)
45. I dunno--there are already MANY established beats for the Boston area, so lots and lots of coverage
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:04 PM
Apr 2013

but producers don't like to send reporters to remote areas like West Texas--it's expensive, and possibly even dangerous. Network producers won't send many, and coverage will not be as extensive.

DFW is close by, but there aren't network bureaus there anymore. The nets will rely on local news operations for footage and reporters. They aren't "stars" so they'll get less air time.

It's not that the event is less newsworthy, it's just that the physical constraints of covering that kind of news are overwhelming.

Also, the Texas event is almost certain to be merely a tragic industrial accident, not a crime. Apparent crimes like Boston will automatically get more eyeballs.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
53. In addition to the purpose vs. accident, maybe it's also 'cause more people can relate to the Boston
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:18 PM
Apr 2013

bombing. Most of us do not live next to a fertilizer plant, but most of us go out to events like the boston marathon. I wonder if the reaction would be different if it was something we're all exposed to... Say something like a gas station that blew up.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
57. Through Hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes, how many gas stations have blown up?
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:27 PM
Apr 2013

The only one I can think of is the BP/Horizon oil platform in the gulf. Those are heavily fortified against fires and it would take a bomb to set one on fire.

octothorpe

(962 posts)
61. I recall at least one exploding last year... I was trying to remember exactly where
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:33 PM
Apr 2013

so I did a search on 'gas station explosion' and it came up with a few, but not the one I was thinking of. I will say none of them explode anything like this place exploded.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
64. You can ignite fires with smoking and static electricity which would ignite fumes
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:38 PM
Apr 2013

in a gas station and cause a fire, but to explode the tanks where the gas is stored is almost impossible without a bomb. Fume fires can be contained. They aren't cool, but the stations take all of this seriously and have back up systems. The place I worked at next to the gas station caught on fire once and the firemen were especially careful to make sure that the flames didn't spread to the station. The buildings on the other side of our building not so much so they suffered smoke damage. See, everyone is on top of the situation with regulations and zoning should be required for any business like that fertilizer business because it's not necessary for them to be on street corners like gas stations.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
59. Accident versus intentional.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:29 PM
Apr 2013

People have much different reactions to tragic accidents than to intentional killing.

YvonneCa

(10,117 posts)
60. Exactly. Intentional is ...
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 01:32 PM
Apr 2013

...murder. Accidental...while sad and horrific for those families...is not. There could be negligence, though.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
76. We've got a worthless POS for governor
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:12 PM
Apr 2013

and a state legislator that only meets to discuss business deals with each other. IOW, our state is fucked up already beyond recognition. I wouldn't doubt that the PTB in Texas are already trying to find a way to blame Dems for the explosion.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
77. There is a reason that it is called "terror"
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:23 PM
Apr 2013

People didn't know if there were more bombs hidden to blow up unsuspecting folks.

Here in Texas...the culprit is the fertilizer plant. Even if there were safety violations, there isn't another one lurking in an unsuspecting place putting folks on edge.

This is a small, tight knit community.

They'd really like for you to donate blood and they would like your prayers.

There isn't anyone to catch.

There is a big difference.

susanr516

(1,425 posts)
86. I think it's because people are so much more familiar with Boston
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 04:38 PM
Apr 2013

Everybody has heard of Boston. Lots of tourists visit, so much history there. The Boston Marathon is world-renowned. It's fairly close to NYC, where all network news is based. And it was a deliberate bombing, not an accident.

Very few people even knew there was a town named West, Texas until yesterday. I think people are upset, but the Boston bombing is still in the news. Besides, West is a long way from NYC.

I'm much more upset about West because I've been there many times. I never missed an opportunity to buy kolaches at the Czech Stop or the Village Bakery downtown. I enjoy stopping there, it's like stepping back a little in time. It's everything a small Texas town should be. However, I understand why someone who never heard of the place might not feel as strongly about it.

JI7

(89,182 posts)
87. i think it's because it's like the Shooting Deaths V Car Accident Deaths
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 04:42 PM
Apr 2013

or just any accident.

in the first case someone intentionally set out to kill people. they were targeted for death.

in the other case it was an accident. even if it was the fault of someone not doing their job the intention still was not to hurt anyone.
.

but we do need to remember these things when we start talking about preventing deaths, new laws etc. sometimes we put so much into trying to prevent death in a certain way which in itself has a very small chance of happening.

but we do nothing about things like infrastructure, simple regulations etc which could prevent accidents which are more likely to happen from occuring.

applegrove

(118,022 posts)
88. I expected nobody to be dead for some reasons. I guess because I assumed it was an accident.
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 08:51 PM
Apr 2013

I assumed everyone would get away from the fire. That there would be no deaths. And look the death total is 35. First responders too. Very sad.

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